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General: Soloers Don’t Destroy MMOs

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  • TelilTelil telfordPosts: 282Member

    I am a solo player and want a CHANCE of experiencing everything in the game.

    I want a CHANCE to go for every piece of equipment in the game.

    If getting my epic sword takes me a month of hard graft soloing then great where do i start!

    Of course i could do it the easy way and join a raid to complete my epic quest and recieve it automatically, but thats no fun for me.......wait! oh ye soloing is the easy way and grouping/raiding is the hard core way....riiggghhhtttt!. back in games like eq when you had a 1 in 50 chance of getting the highest roll for that epic piece...yes that was the hard and ONLY way. but these days you just gotta join a guild...you dont even have to speak to anyone, just join and turn up to a raid, sit back and press a fgew buttons to make it look like your not AFK and once the mob is dead you get your reward. hardcore.

    Have i upset anyone?

  • TelilTelil telfordPosts: 282Member

    Originally posted by LoboMau

    Im confused...Does she knows that  she is working in a Site called MMORPG? What the hell is she doing here?

    trying to get a response from you and the rest of us?

    So far looks like she is succesful, maybe they should give her a rise lol.

     

    [Mod Edit]

  • PukeBucketPukeBucket Beaverton, ORPosts: 867Member


    Originally posted by Telil
    I am a solo player and want a CHANCE of experiencing everything in the game.
    I want a CHANCE to go for every piece of equipment in the game.
    If getting my epic sword takes me a month of hard graft soloing then great where do i start!
    Of course i could do it the easy way and join a raid to complete my epic quest and recieve it automatically, but thats no fun for me.......wait! oh ye soloing is the easy way and grouping/raiding is the hard core way....riiggghhhtttt!. back in games like eq when you had a 1 in 50 chance of getting the highest roll for that epic piece...yes that was the hard and ONLY way. but these days you just gotta join a guild...you dont even have to speak to anyone, just join and turn up to a raid, sit back and press a fgew buttons to make it look like your not AFK and once the mob is dead you get your reward. hardcore.
    Have i upset anyone?

    Upset everyone by pointing out that raiding for gear sucks as much as soloing?

    No. Sorry.

    I used to play MMOs like you, but then I took an arrow to the knee.

  • VesaviusVesavius BristolPosts: 7,645Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Vorthanion



    Originally posted by Vesavius



     
    Terrible article that accuses the readers that see things differently of 'bitching', as a cheap way of dismissing their perspective, when the whole thing was one long 'bitch'.

    MMORPG.com used to be better then this kind of official troll piece.

    Really?  It couldn't possibly be in response to all of the posts and topics over the years by groupies spewing their hatred toward us soloers.  Blaming us for everything that is wrong with the genre?  I've seen an awful lot of bitching and whining by group lovers to justify this response and then some.

     

    The 'hatred' you dsecribe may well have been due to the fact that soloers have whined these games into a super casual anti-social soulless selfish shells of what they once were.

    Solo focused play isn't the only problem with how MMOs have evolved but it's a big one.

    And, look, just because certain people have whined about it in the past in no way validates a MMORPG writer accusing those that disagree with her of just 'bitching'. Thats just really cheap and does absolutely nothing to move the debate on in a constructive way.

    I would expect better from an 'official' piece.

  • MumboJumboMumboJumbo LondonPosts: 3,221Member

    Originally posted by Ecoces

    Here's the thing the "old school" players need to get through their head is the whole community thing will not go back to the way it was in EQ1, unless you are playing some Niche MMO by some indie company with 200 other players.

    back in the days of EQ1 it was only played by "nerds", now with MMOs becoming more mainstream communities have become more guild oriented instead of you knowing everyone on the server.

    sorry but the "forced grouping" faction of this forum is WRONG you cannot have a successful MMO without a heavy soloing element. now you can encourage grouping which is what MMOs should do but forcing people to be in a group to do ANYTHING will just make people unsubscribe.

    Agree with this.



    1. For mainstream mmos, solo is less variable experience from the higher highs of groups to the scum at the bottom end as well in mmorpgs.


    2. For community, numbers of ppl on a server and how niche it is is more of an influential factor than group/party mechanics as well as how successful either approach is at fostering community in an mmo?


    Btw another good column.

  • PukeBucketPukeBucket Beaverton, ORPosts: 867Member


    Originally posted by MumboJumbo

    Originally posted by Ecoces
    Here's the thing the "old school" players need to get through their head is the whole community thing will not go back to the way it was in EQ1, unless you are playing some Niche MMO by some indie company with 200 other players.
    back in the days of EQ1 it was only played by "nerds", now with MMOs becoming more mainstream communities have become more guild oriented instead of you knowing everyone on the server.
    sorry but the "forced grouping" faction of this forum is WRONG you cannot have a successful MMO without a heavy soloing element. now you can encourage grouping which is what MMOs should do but forcing people to be in a group to do ANYTHING will just make people unsubscribe.
    Agree with this.

    [*]
    For mainstream mmos, solo is less variable experience from the higher highs of groups to the scum at the bottom end as well.

    For community, numbers of ppl on a server and how niche it is is more of an influential factor than group/party mechanics as well as how successful either approach is at fostering community in an mmo?



    Well there you have it. Who needs multiplayer in MMOs since solo has brought out all these awesome cool dudes that play MMOs now.

    Leave content and gameplay to the nerds.

    I used to play MMOs like you, but then I took an arrow to the knee.

  • MumboJumboMumboJumbo LondonPosts: 3,221Member

    Originally posted by PukeBucket

     




    Originally posted by MumboJumbo





    Originally posted by Ecoces

    Here's the thing the "old school" players need to get through their head is the whole community thing will not go back to the way it was in EQ1, unless you are playing some Niche MMO by some indie company with 200 other players.

    back in the days of EQ1 it was only played by "nerds", now with MMOs becoming more mainstream communities have become more guild oriented instead of you knowing everyone on the server.

    sorry but the "forced grouping" faction of this forum is WRONG you cannot have a successful MMO without a heavy soloing element. now you can encourage grouping which is what MMOs should do but forcing people to be in a group to do ANYTHING will just make people unsubscribe.






    Agree with this.

     

    [*]

    For mainstream mmos, solo is less variable experience from the higher highs of groups to the scum at the bottom end as well.



    For community, numbers of ppl on a server and how niche it is is more of an influential factor than group/party mechanics as well as how successful either approach is at fostering community in an mmo?

     



     

    Well there you have it. Who needs multiplayer in MMOs since solo has brought out all these awesome cool dudes that play MMOs now.

    Leave content and gameplay to the nerds.

    rofl!

    But is there agreement that for an average player, x1 bad group experience > x10 good group experiences? To unforce it in a mainstream game makes perfect sense. As said other factors are likley more influential than forced grouping working or not working (eg sample selection?).

    *scum is illustrative; it's not a personal opinion but it gets the point across of "bad experience > good experience" leaves a influential/lasting memory...

  • ignore_meignore_me Apple Valley, CAPosts: 1,987Member

    Originally posted by PukeBucket

    This article has the "I didn't eat all the cake" argument all over it.

    There's crumbs in the box and bits of frosting on the lid of the box.

    Soloers didn't completely destroy MMOs, but you know for the most part you did.

    Apologies are needed, not excuses.

    You first, you need to apologize for allowing group oriented content to devolve because you didn't identify solo players and drive them from Your game with harassment and griefing. Super childish. Good Job. Apologize, wth

    Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011

  • silvermembersilvermember saint paul, MNPosts: 531Member

    As a gamer, I totally agree with most of the points she makes. In some ways, players that claim that (anti soloers) are the reason the market continues to release crap and while MMOs haven't really changed in the past 7 years. In most other places, 7 years have brought in a complete overhaul and its significantly different than in the past, in games, we play the same type of games with the same mechanics but with a different skin for those 7 years.  when something new comes a long, players like anti-soloers bitch and moan how, different it is and how much it's changed from before. Then in the same breath, anti-soloer curse how things haven't changed at all.

    I consider myself a solo player because on average I would rather spend more time playing a lone than being in a group. Guess what, I was really popular, was in one of the strongest guilds in aion. I participated in a lot of things, PvP, raids etc. Anyways, I prefered soloing because it was more fun and I wasn't handicapped by the system. What do I mean handicapped? Think about all those times, when you needed a tank or cleric, or 2 dps or 1 dps. Think about that time when you run an instance and the item you wanted dropped but unfortunately for you another person also wanted and you ended up losing the roll, i known people than ran an instance 264*3=792( 3 instance had the similar loot table). All those things end up being more of a negative, than being a positive. While being in a group is fun, its only fun the first time you conqurer the instance or raid, in aion 2.0, when my static final beat stormwing it was fun. When my static finally beat hard mode Besh(aion) without any unnecessary expliots (which 99% of the players pre-nerfed did) that was fun. See the pattern? Grouping is only fun the first few time, after the challenge is gone it stops being fun, then becomes a battle of schedule. When that happens especially for certain roles like healer and tank finding a replacement becomes a problem.

    I know in aion, it became such a huge deal that when the content got nerfed to what we call WoW level of difficulty, my static would run a 5 man instance with 4 people and for certain instances we could run it with 2 people. Both of those scenarios were tested because we got sicked of waiting for certain classes and when the proved successful with no significant increase in time, we ran with it.

    Tl;DR

    Solers exist because MMORPGs, forced a certain group composition (cleric,tank) and usually give no way of guaranteering those specific group composition would exist for higher levels of content or a few months down the line and significantly punish players for not having them Then you got the fact that in certain MMO, you are rolling for loot against people which also makes grouping a bad experience. Basically everything I said comes down to 2 things: time and reward. Most of the people that claim soloer are ruining the experience generally have a lot of time to play an MMO per week waiting for a tank or cleric and the reward to them is something that motivates them to playing. People that have more things going on in their lives don't like their time being wasted due to the game's own stupid mechanics. Fortunately, guild wars 2 might fix  or minimize some of those problems...I HOPE.

    I was playing a multiplayer co-op in mass effect 3, queue in a few mins later got a group of random players and we beat the content. If this was an MMO, I would have to wait for tank, cleric, or dps and all those things depending on game and server could take from 0 min to 5+ hours (happpen to me before).

  • BartDaCatBartDaCat Renton, WAPosts: 819Member Uncommon

    I'm not sure why this article was even necessary.  There have always been soloers AND soloable content in MMO's as long as I've played them, and that includes EQ1, DAoC, and UO to name a few.

    The only time I've ever seen a game truly enforce a "You Must Group To Progress" structure was FFXI, where the epitome of a Monthy Python-esque "Killer Rabbit" could one-shot you without batting an eye, which sucked for multiple reasons, but primarily because of the cross-continental server sructure and the culture shock of Japanese players clashing with players from other counties with different gameplay ethics and values--- finding groups was a bitch.

    Other than that, every other MMO that I have played has offered some sort of soloable exploration and content for those that wish to explore/craft/grind levels/etc.

    If some MMOs have catered to a more "solo-friendly" environment, then it's probably time to seek out a new MMO.  Not everyone can be logged in at the same time, nor is everyone interested in peforming the same tasks that you are.  This has always been the case.

    What I see missing from the latest MMOs are realm/world events that truly require group effort--- where lack of community response has detrimental effects on a particular realm, such as relic raids in Dark Age of Camelot.  The great thing about those games and the events they offered was that you could hop in and contribute, and get some sort of credit for your efforts, and you could drop out when you wanted. 

    AION almost got it right with it's PvP realms, had the overall game not been so craptastic (even though it was easy on the eyes), but there just isn't enough reason in MMOs for people to band together anymore except for an occasional World Boss that drops 'Teh Phat Lewtz', which is kind kind of lame.

     

  • VyntVynt Glendale, CAPosts: 632Member Uncommon

    I usually prefer grouping, but do like to solo. Even on games that were considered grouping games like EQ, I had no trouble soloing. I think for tougher content, an epic quest, killing a god and such, it should be group/raid. I often did group instead of solo because it was more enjoyable.

    The problem with current MMOs, soloing while leveling has become the superior method by a longshot in terms of leveling speed, gear, rewards. The people that want to group are then forced to solo the progression because it is difficult to find others to group with, and especially if grouping turns out to be a slower form of progression since a lot of people like to speed through content. Then when grouping is required in the endgame, many people suck at it because they had no practice grouping through the whole game.

    An easy solution to this is not to punish people who like to solo, but reward those that group. The earlier games did this, EQ, daoc (group and camp bonuses). Grab a group and knock off say 5 levels in an hour, or if you soloed maybe you would finish 3 or even 4. That gives some choices and viability to both methods. Grouping definitely has to be made the better route though because it usually takes more incentive (like epics from raids) to get people to join together.

    When I was offered some free time to play cataclysm, I did level  just by dungeons once I was able to and it was pretty quick. The dungeon finder facilitated that, but then it felt very impersonal and saw a lot more morons/asses than usual. Double edged sword there, heh.

     

  • KalmarthKalmarth Lake Havasu City, AZPosts: 443Member

    Soloers do ruin MMO's, its an MMO and that means playing in a massive community, not being a loner, if you want that go play single player games and stop bitching till they make the content so easy that you can solo it.

    Hell FPS's are becoming more group orintated than MMO's these days, its enough to make EQ weep!

  • MephsterMephster Tyria, NJPosts: 1,188Member

    Soloers don't ruin mmos, its the design choice of the developers to make their mmo soloable is what ruins mmos.

    Grim Dawn, the next great action rpg!

    http://www.grimdawn.com/

  • silvermembersilvermember saint paul, MNPosts: 531Member

    Originally posted by Kalmarth

    Soloers do ruin MMO's, its an MMO and that means playing in a massive community, not being a loner, if you want that go play single player games and stop bitching till they make the content so easy that you can solo it.

    Hell FPS's are becoming more group orintated than MMO's these days, its enough to make EQ weep!

    you clearly don't play fps then, because very few are truly group, it's just run and gun and unlike MMO, grouping is not forced. I don't need a specific class to enjoy content. Finally, you are an idiot because MMO don't only have to be an RPG, they can be MMOFPS. Let's not forget that multiplayer in fps on consoles only exist as a cash grab, charging 15 dollars for 3 maps, adding multiplayer  so they can charge online pass for used copies and reduce Pc pirating by making MP required for best ending in certain games.

  • HarkurHarkur Victoria, BCPosts: 16Member

    Originally posted by adam_nox

    Dumb article.  CoH doesn't force grouping, but for many years people grouped all the time, because it was fun.

    If you are a soloer, that means you don't like grouping, so don't write a dumb article telling us that you like grouping and are a 'soloer', it doesn't work that way. 

    I don't blame soloers, I blame games that don't entice grouping effectively.  There's no point in a monthly fee or even playing online if you aren't grouping regularly. Solo some, sure, but no groups at all makes the whole genre pointless.

    If that's not breaking the game, what is?

    Wow, where to start?

    It's great that CoH doesn't force grouping and that groupiong for some is fun...it's supposed to be!  That has nothing to do with solo players though...so...

     

    If I solo primarily that in no way means that you need to put a gun to my head to make me group from time to time...when I feel like it.  It means that most of the time I want to solo.  It's not binary, and people who try and make it binary and part of the problem.

     

    Who are you to tell me that if I don't group regularly I don't belong in an MMO?  I will tell you who you surely are not; you are not a game designer, studio, or producer.  Just because I am running around solo does not mean I am not socially active at the same time.  Again, stop it with the binary thing.

     

    I have no idea how you leapt to game-breaking even with your responses...since nothing you said...or replied to...breaks a game.

  • HedeonHedeon GraestedPosts: 954Member Uncommon

    it said MMO on the box so please let me pay 15$/month for an auction house...

    either way there should always be things to be achieved solo - next to no one have time for grouping every single time they log in...but the current generic cut and dry lines between activities in a MMO just make this whole genre a waste of time,  Id rather play LoL....even if I suck at it ;P

  • HarkurHarkur Victoria, BCPosts: 16Member

    Originally posted by LoboMau

    Im confused...Does she knows that  she is working in a Site called MMORPG? What the hell is she doing here?

    I'm confused...do you know that the G in MMORPG does not stand for Group?  

  • ForumPvPForumPvP KingstownPosts: 871Member

    If soloers dont destroy MMOs then those must be a healthy add and make those games  better.

    -

    Iif devs make content for this kind of players more than they make for multiplayers. then yes they do destroy MMO more than they know.

     

     

    Let's internet

  • PukeBucketPukeBucket Beaverton, ORPosts: 867Member


    Originally posted by Harkur

    Originally posted by LoboMau
    Im confused...Does she knows that  she is working in a Site called MMORPG? What the hell is she doing here?
    I'm confused...do you know that the G in MMORPG does not stand for Group?  

    You're close Harkur, but it's actually the second M that stands for group. In the acronym's usage tho' it's Multiplayer.

    I can see where if English is your second language that could be confusing.

    I used to play MMOs like you, but then I took an arrow to the knee.

  • ElderRatElderRat Syracuse, NYPosts: 899Member

    Originally posted by PukeBucket

     




    Originally posted by Harkur





    Originally posted by LoboMau

    Im confused...Does she knows that  she is working in a Site called MMORPG? What the hell is she doing here?






    I'm confused...do you know that the G in MMORPG does not stand for Group?  



     

    You're close Harkur, but it's actually the second M that stands for group. In the acronym's usage tho' it's Multiplayer.

    I can see where if English is your second language that could be confusing.

    Multiplayer stands for more than one player playing the game at a time.. it does not connote group. Groups may form when there is more than 1 person but not necessarily so. One can have a whole bunch of individuals in the game ignoring each other and still be MULTI-player.

     

    Currently bored with MMO's.

  • PukeBucketPukeBucket Beaverton, ORPosts: 867Member

     




    Originally posted by ElderRat





    Originally posted by PukeBucket

     








    Originally posted by Harkur










    Originally posted by LoboMau

    Im confused...Does she knows that  she is working in a Site called MMORPG? What the hell is she doing here?










    I'm confused...do you know that the G in MMORPG does not stand for Group?  








     

    You're close Harkur, but it's actually the second M that stands for group. In the acronym's usage tho' it's Multiplayer.

    I can see where if English is your second language that could be confusing.






    Multiplayer stands for more than one player playing the game at a time.. it does not connote group. Groups may form when there is more than 1 person but not necessarily so. One can have a whole bunch of individuals in the game ignoring each other and still be MULTI-player.

     




    [mod edit]

    I used to play MMOs like you, but then I took an arrow to the knee.

  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,221Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by ActionMMORPG

    I don't think the issue has ever been that soloers or casuals destroy games.  Both have existed in MMORPGs from the beginning.

     

    The way I see it, the issue is that developers destroy games when they favor solo play to such a large degree that game mechanics for grouping and community interaction are contradicted, removed or gimped beyond usefulness.

    Odd because I see it both ways in that anytime developers try and shoehorn players into playing a certain way or style it will go badly for them.  It will go even worse if they may exceptional allowances for the "other" playstyle while still trying to shoehorn players into doing things (read content) how they want.

    That is why I love RIFT.  I love grouping in that game and spend 80% or more of my time grouped in content or running dungeons/raids.  However, when I'm not in a group (my friends are already in a full group) I can do productive stuff solo or I can join one of the public raids and go with that.  The point is that I don't feel pressured or shoehorned into playing one certain way and my time isn't wasted when I can't play my preferred way.  Trion has made their game feel less "solo vs grouper" than any other game I've ever played.

    In the end people should be free to enjoy their online time how they like.  I'm just glad soloers are in my game, adding to the environment and helping fund revenue.

    What really ruins a game are the elitist pricks who think everyone should play their way or that think they shouldn't have to flex to accomodate others ever.  So the groupers who think everyone should solo or the soloers who expect groupers to bend to their needs are out to lunch in my book.

  • HarkurHarkur Victoria, BCPosts: 16Member

    Originally posted by PukeBucket

     




    Originally posted by Harkur





    Originally posted by LoboMau

    Im confused...Does she knows that  she is working in a Site called MMORPG? What the hell is she doing here?






    I'm confused...do you know that the G in MMORPG does not stand for Group?  



    You're close Harkur, but it's actually the second M that stands for group. In the acronym's usage tho' it's Multiplayer.

    I can see where if English is your second language that could be confusing.

    You do realize that Multiplayer means multiple players in the game, don't you?  And you do realize that multiple players can be in a game at the same time without being grouped, don't you?  

     

    Although, since I've only been online gaming since the AC1 beta perhaps it changed somewhere before that...

  • MumboJumboMumboJumbo LondonPosts: 3,221Member

    Originally posted by Harkur

    Originally posted by adam_nox

    Dumb article.  CoH doesn't force grouping, but for many years people grouped all the time, because it was fun.

    If you are a soloer, that means you don't like grouping, so don't write a dumb article telling us that you like grouping and are a 'soloer', it doesn't work that way. 

    I don't blame soloers, I blame games that don't entice grouping effectively.  There's no point in a monthly fee or even playing online if you aren't grouping regularly. Solo some, sure, but no groups at all makes the whole genre pointless.

    If that's not breaking the game, what is?

    Wow, where to start?

    It's great that CoH doesn't force grouping and that groupiong for some is fun...it's supposed to be!  That has nothing to do with solo players though...so...

     

    If I solo primarily that in no way means that you need to put a gun to my head to make me group from time to time...when I feel like it.  It means that most of the time I want to solo.  It's not binary, and people who try and make it binary and part of the problem.

     

    Who are you to tell me that if I don't group regularly I don't belong in an MMO?  I will tell you who you surely are not; you are not a game designer, studio, or producer.  Just because I am running around solo does not mean I am not socially active at the same time.  Again, stop it with the binary thing.

     

    I have no idea how you leapt to game-breaking even with your responses...since nothing you said...or replied to...breaks a game.

    Good conversation here.

    1. Design does not entice grouping effectively is v important.

    2. That said the assumption that mmo on the box = automatically effective grouping will/should occur seems to be one of mmorpgs biggest fallacies/failings

    People range in their psychological profiles on various measure tremendously. If you were to then use such data to classify ppl for purposes of groups of: a) Like-minded ppl b) Grouping for activities that require different amounts of group/commitment/inter-personal understanding etc, amount of time in a group etc......there would be an enormous spread. ONE SIZE does not fit all although mmos can implement a group feature & seehow ppl manage to shoe-horn themselves into it to varying degrees of satisfaction/tolerance. The other thing is ppl are not solo all the time or group-minded or a lot of other things all the time. They as individuals vary up and down on those "profiles" to add further variety to above.

    Effectively an adaptable grouping system or number of such ptions is the best recourse for mainstream mmo where population is going to be more random there widest range possible: SOLO -> ZERG image

    Even in other types of games involving pvp: Different categories of groups required based on one measure eg skill for match-making let alone multiple measures.

     

    TL;DR:

    Jeff Strain:



    Don't underestimate the importance of solo play! Sometimes your friends aren't online, sometimes you want to kill 30 minutes while everyone groups together, and sometimes you just don't want to go to committee on every damn decision. The quality of the solo play experience is just as important to the success of an MMO as the quality of the multiplayer experience. A few months before the release of Guild Wars we added computer-controlled henchmen to the game as a way to pad out your party when your friends weren't around. Later we enhanced this feature and introduced computer-controlled Heroes, which gave you control over their actions and more fully supported the notion of playing the game entirely on your own. While it may seem counterintuitive to add features that support the solo play experience into an MMO, we believe that Guild Warswould not have been as successful had we not added these features.


     


    Two-player gaming, or as we call it "buddy gaming", is not a generic case of multi-player gaming, but is instead its own form of play that deserves special attention. Increasingly, MMOs are used as a setting for "real world" social interaction, including dating, spending time with your kids, or hanging out with your best friend or spouse. Just as the real social dynamics in a one-on-one setting greatly differ from the dynamics of a large group setting, the game experience when playing with one person differs from the experience of playing with a group. You can slow down, smell the flowers, discuss what you've seen and what you'd like to do, strategize and assist each other, and communicate on a more sincere level. In short, it's a more intimate form of community, and we should be supporting it explicitly.


     

  • ElderRatElderRat Syracuse, NYPosts: 899Member

    I don't know about anyone else but Groupers made me a solo'r.  Basically I became fed up with how inept most of you groupers are.  Invaribly the tanks aggros everything to the point the healer cannot heal him.. then blames the healer or the DPS when  in effect it was his poor tanking, or The healer takes a 1/2 hour potty break and everyone dies, or everyone starts arguing about pointless stuff, or break up because players a,b,c and  want to go back and turn in their quests even tho the rest of us have not finished ours, or..  on and on. I prefer the quiet of soloing. If my guild needs help - I will group.  But the rest of you? Nope I don't want my character to die when he/she does not have to and grouping usually results in: EVERYONE DIES. My experience and why I often solo.

    Currently bored with MMO's.

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