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General: From MUD to MMO

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  • consloconslo Lexington, MAPosts: 1Member

     

    I love MUD's, far more than MMO's. Because in an MMO you're limited by what the artists can come up with (time is money, and good graphics take time, time, and more time, especially animations).

    In a MUD, such as Achaea, there are literally no limits to what I can do. No specific command to dance around like a monkey and jump on my head? OK, just "emote dances around like a monkey, before jumping up and landing on his head with a sickening crunch." ANYTHING is possible, I can order custom clothes (or make them myself), and (more recently) even cook custom food! For gods sake I can make a house, with a colossal underground garden! A garden from which I can harvest and sell herbs and potions!

    But even with how cool that all is, really my favorite are the events. Oh, the events... Where the Gods (who, by the way, are the admins and programmers of the game itself!) get INVOLVED, RPing as NPC's (OK, they probably have the interns and volunteers mostly do that :p), and causing large catastrophes, revealing new areas, or destroying old ones. Big, drastic changes to the game, whether it's new classes, or big changes to how war works (yea, we have war, with soldiers, and destroying areas). Or maybe an inconceivable number of moles have burrowed throughout the world and are stealing all the herbs, OR maybe an NPC with a rather negative history with your city plots to use a hypnotic song to mind control everyone in order to take over, and when your house creates an orb of water that produces a muting effect to counter it, she later gets mad and marches war on you, and you see her troops marching right past your favorite deli. (none of this is made up)

    Oh, and two more things:

    1. A chain of catapults that instantly puts someone straight into (very) hostile territory

    2. A dragon accidentally biting its own head off.

  • AcmegamerAcmegamer Selah, WAPosts: 337Member

    Originally posted by Aluvius

    Yeah, DR is still seeing a decent amount of active development from Simu .. it has a larger playerbase and the engine is worlds easier to work on (not being a patchwork of 30 year old systems like GS heh).

     

    Celtar, wow yeah Pauper's haunted house in 1993 ... damn I had forgotten all about that.  They should have kept it as deadly as it was originally.

     

    p.s.  Its funny that I'm kicking myself now for giving away all of my gear when I left in 2000.  I thought I'd never come back.  Thankfully Arwen kept some of it for me when I came back for the free month in 2003? when EN opened.  So at least I have my armor, but I miss some of those nice 2 handers I had, especially now that I made Aluvius back into a two hander warmage.  Who knew? :)

     

        I'm still kicking myself for letting Sorrow go. Nothing like having an evil, sentient two handed sword trying to kill you while moaning and howling etc. :) I think Bill/Tayvin has it these days. I think Ardwen still plays, not sure about Arwen. 

     

     

  • JimmacJimmac TXPosts: 1,667Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by conslo

     

    I love MUD's, far more than MMO's. Because in an MMO you're limited by what the artists can come up with (time is money, and good graphics take time, time, and more time, especially animations).

    In a MUD, such as Achaea, there are literally no limits to what I can do. No specific command to dance around like a monkey and jump on my head? OK, just "emote dances around like a monkey, before jumping up and landing on his head with a sickening crunch." ANYTHING is possible, I can order custom clothes (or make them myself), and (more recently) even cook custom food! For gods sake I can make a house, with a colossal underground garden! A garden from which I can harvest and sell herbs and potions!

    But even with how cool that all is, really my favorite are the events. Oh, the events... Where the Gods (who, by the way, are the admins and programmers of the game itself!) get INVOLVED, RPing as NPC's (OK, they probably have the interns and volunteers mostly do that :p), and causing large catastrophes, revealing new areas, or destroying old ones. Big, drastic changes to the game, whether it's new classes, or big changes to how war works (yea, we have war, with soldiers, and destroying areas). Or maybe an inconceivable number of moles have burrowed throughout the world and are stealing all the herbs, OR maybe an NPC with a rather negative history with your city plots to use a hypnotic song to mind control everyone in order to take over, and when your house creates an orb of water that produces a muting effect to counter it, she later gets mad and marches war on you, and you see her troops marching right past your favorite deli. (none of this is made up

    Oh, and two more things:

    1. A chain of catapults that instantly puts someone straight into (very) hostile territory

    2. A dragon accidentally biting its own head off.

    I just want to say, this is some of the most (if not "the most") bad ass shit I've ever heard happened in an mmorpg. Hopefully I can convince myself to drop the cash and get in on one of these games.

  • AluviusAluvius New York, NYPosts: 288Member

    Yeah I talked to Ardwen just last week.  I saw Arwen on a while back, but not sure if its the same player or not.

     

    Hehe, i never had anything as nice as Sorrow .. but I did have a death flail and a golvern 2 hand axe I'd like to find along with a bunch of other stuff.  Ah well, I kept most of my really old items including my armor so it could be worse. :)

  • ValkaernValkaern OxfordPosts: 512Member

    Thanks to this thread & article I'm actually trying out quite a few games I'm really enjoying, but trying to whittle the choice down to one or two to really invest in.

    It seems one game I find will have great mapping (which I need - trust me), great combat but poor character development, or one that has great character development, fair combat but an interesting world. I'm having a hard time finding one that really ticks the most boxes.

    With that in mind, I wouldn't mind hearing some suggestions & if so inclined, why you think they'd be worth a try. So far I'm enjoying Alter Aeon, but the character development and overall feel seems a bit simplistic (I am only level 12 or so though) - however, great maps, nice world so far, and an overall solid feel. I am however leaning towards this. The other one was Aardwolf for its large and active community, solid feel, nice character development, but the world decends into the absurd at times (fighting furniture?) and combat seems a bit simple. I've also tried the IRE games but the client(s) are keeping me away as they're not very customizable and alternative clients lose the nice UI.

    So, any ideas on what might be the full package (deep character development, active community, engaging combat etc?).

    Thanks.

  • KhaerosKhaeros Monroe, NYPosts: 452Member

    Originally posted by Valkaern

    So, any ideas on what might be the full package (deep character development, active community, engaging combat etc?).

     

    What do you consider an active community? There are some well-designed MUDs that don't get much attention because they are completely free and lack advertisement.  IRE / Simutronics games can afford to throw up ads so they keep growing.  Can you work with a small, tight-knit community of 10+?  Or by active community, are you thinking of 50+ players on at once? 100+?  Does roleplay matter to you?

     

    When you say engaging combat, are you looking for a completely rewritten combat system, or something that feels similar but adds special features on top of it?  Aardwolf feels similar to a Diku (it was one until they decided to rewrite the whole thing, possibly due to licensing issues) and gives you skills you might feel used to already, mixed in with extra skills and features.  God Wars II is manual control of four to six positions on your body and is extremely complex, but rewarding when you get good at it.  It feels completely different unless you've played a game that bears its namesake codebase before.

     

    What is deep character development to you?  Are you looking for a game where roleplay matters and can shape your character?  Or do you mean that you have a lot of ways to increase your character's combat power?  Or maybe something in the middle?

     

     

    Active community:

    Large communities - Use mudstats.com, and the top lists from topmudsites and mudconnect.  Give preference to roleplaying-enforced games (if you can handle it) or games that have some sort of player dependence.

    Smaller communities - Most any roleplay-enforced game with a small community tends to be tight-knit and good.

     

    Engaging combat:

    Feels similar - Games that (heavily) modify their codebases.  Aardwolf is a prime example of a game that feels like a Diku but plays a little different. 

    Totally different - Look for games with custom / little-used codebases.  God Wars II is the prime example.

    Avoid: MUSHes (they typically have skeleton systems that are only used for roleplay).

     

    Deep character development:

    Roleplay-based development:  Any roleplay-enforced game.  Consider games that allow players to become leaders of major organizations.  Consider MUSHes.

    Power-based development:  Any game that gives you multiple ways to power up your character (Aardwolf is a good example).  Pay attention to games with 'remorts' as they will usually have this kind of thing in abundance. 

    Mixed development:  Consider roleplay and PVE / PVP hybrids like Shattered Kingdoms, Forgotten Kingdoms, Legends of the Jedi, etc.

     

     

  • VyethVyeth Fayetteville, NCPosts: 1,459Member

    I remember my first online gaming experience.. Gemstone III through AOL's gaming service.. It was the most immersive gaming experience I ever played because just about nothing was off limits. There were so many emotes and things you could do that I actually felt overwhelmed for a while.

    Sitting in a tavern having to open my bag and individually inspecting everything, while people went about their chat and item show-&-tell all seen through text.

    In battle, individual limbs could be damaged effecting your combat ability somehow. You could bleed to death if you do not bandage up.. You could even get lost if you did not track your own movements on a hand-made personal map.

    It was pretty deep and involved..

    image

  • RealedazedRealedazed Mesa, AZPosts: 103Member

    Now that I think about it. My first MUD was Darkness falls. I was a HOST for a RPG chat that was hosted on AOL, so I got free service. Somehow I figured that meant that I got free everything. I forgot how much AOL charged for the game per hour, all I know is that I ended up with a $500 bill at the end. I was like 17 at the time and somehow I didn't get in trouble with my grandparents.

    Next I went to Dragons Gate, by the same company that made Darkness falls. It was RP enforced and pretty cool.  I don't even remember what was next. Some how I got sucked into DragonRealms, Threshold and Achaea. I know I beta tested both Lusternia and Imperian. I'm on and off of Armageddon and I don't really care for New Worlds.  The rest is MUD history :)

  • rubytonrubyton Math, CAPosts: 1Member

    Great post. It's no doubt those good old days made us who we are today.

    For me, I enjoyed making triggers in zMUD that eventually evolved into fully automated bots that you can run while you're in bed, and a few days later I just can't help but wonder what the purpose of playing the game is.

    There are many things I enjoyed from MUD, because it's fully text-based, the programmer doesn't have to worry about graphics and therefore is able to churn out new features fairly quickly, and without all the mess that is required to make it work on different operating systems.

    For instance, if you wanted a system that allows you to have your own rooms, you can have your own "folders" on the server to store those room files. Enchant a weapon? Simple, just add another variable to the weapon class.

    Well, I've played hundreds (literally), maybe thousands, of MMOs after playing MUD, and none had the same level of freedom and engagement. Whereas people are visual creatures and are attracted to MMO's graphics, graphics is not a necessity to those who can imagine. In fact, the origin of MUD itself is creativity - "Oh look, we can send text to other users in the console. That's amazing, let's make a multi-player game out of this!"

    What am I doing now? Making my own game! www.ratjoy.com/eos/

  • JimmacJimmac TXPosts: 1,667Member Uncommon

    I've decided to give dragonrealms a try. Any here started playing this recently? Maybe we can group up.

  • KruverKruver OsorioPosts: 3Member

    Some of the 'MUD lovers' posting here are really silly people. They come to a website dedicated to MMOs to spread hate towards MMO games but they will get angry if one calls their 'games' boring chat rooms... 

     



     

  • just1opinionjust1opinion Kansas City, MOPosts: 4,844Member

    Did I read wrong, or does DragonRealms cost either 25 or 50 dollars a month to play?  O_O   One is a platinum sub and one is premium.  I think that's a bit steep for a non-graphical game.  I mean, after all.....it's MY imagination that is playing, along with all the other players....wtf?

     

    I was going to try this as my first MUD, but apparently it's a bad choice for me.  Anyone know of any MUDs that are either free or less expensive and still GOOD? 

    President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club

  • JimmacJimmac TXPosts: 1,667Member Uncommon

    I think Dragonrealms actually has a basic $15 subscription fee. Premium Membership is $25 in addition to the $15, so $40 per month total. Platinum is just a standalone cost of $50 a month. Expensive no doubt. While my natural tendency is to complain that $15 per month is too expensive for a text game, I convinced myself to hold back based on the belief that the $15 pays for constant and active Developer involvment in the community, such as through GM events and content expansion of the game. Whether that is true or not, I don't know...I'd have to play the game and follow it for a while to find out.

    As for the $40 or $50 model plans, I can't see myself ever paying that much a month for any mmo. While it does seem kind of crazy to me, it also makes sense why they would charge that much if you think about it. The die hard mudders are going to pay whatever it is they need to pay to have access to their RP dreamworld. If this means $50 bucks a month then so be it. Meanwhile, lessening that cost will probably not bring in any new players to the game, so the company stands to gain almost nothing by NOT charging a bunch per month from the die hards. They charge more from the customers they know will be paying no matter what, since even if they charged those customers less, that probably wouldn't bring in new customers to the game. They are completely focused on that niche.

  • just1opinionjust1opinion Kansas City, MOPosts: 4,844Member

    Achaea is free to play.  I guess I'll start there. :)   Just to see what it's like.

    President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club

  • valrinvalrin Ann Arbor, MIPosts: 6Member

    Dragonrealms IS rather expensive. I did play a MUD over the weekend, but not that one! Just could not justify it as I have two other MMO subscriptions at the moment. 

     

    I did, however, start playing another MUD I was into: wotmud!  Just head over to wotmud.org to check it out. It is free! I think it is fun even if you're not into the Wheel of Time series by Robert Jordan. It has a good community (although not the numbers DR has) and is fun to PK in. It's not nearly as deep as DR, either.. but the price is right!

  • KhaerosKhaeros Monroe, NYPosts: 452Member

    Originally posted by Kruver

     boring chat rooms...

     

    Well, to be fair, several of them are boring, 'adult' chat rooms.

    Some are just boring chat rooms.

    And some are games with boring chat rooms.

     

     

    I find that in games that combine roleplay and PVP and throw in permadeath - or just simply do not have roleplaying - fellow mudders seem less socially awkward and more fun to talk with.  I have no clue why it works in the rp/pvp niche, but it does and I'm grateful for it.

     

    I mean, all MUDs are shit - just like all MMOs are shit, and all cRPGs besides Planescape: Torment are shit.  The idea is that I know nothing better than PS:T will be made, so I've lowered my standards and set to playing whatever isn't as shit as the other things.

     

    In this case, right now, it's MUDs.

  • colonnelli71colonnelli71 new windsor, NYPosts: 52Member

    I started playing GSIII when they had an advertisement of the front page of AOL. I loved it from the start, and then Simutronics opened beta for Dragonrealms. I got into the beta with 4 other friends and never looked back. I too was a trailblazer, although not liked by many for my AFK scripting. I have played almost every MMO released from theme park to sandbox and my greatest memories are from DR. I even met my wife playing DR The fallen. Even though I gave the GM staff hell and they hated my scripting, they were always professional and as fair as I could ask. I would recommend any Simutrionics game, highly in depth and immersive worlds and gameplay. Great community and staff.

    Mysil

  • AcmegamerAcmegamer Selah, WAPosts: 337Member

    Originally posted by Kruver

    Some of the 'MUD lovers' posting here are really silly people. They come to a website dedicated to MMOs to spread hate towards MMO games but they will get angry if one calls their 'games' boring chat rooms... 





     










     

        You do realize right that basically the in game populations of those text based multi-player rpgs rivals the server population of a graphical mulit-player rpg? (Or have in the past). Are you just trolling to troll or because your bored? Also you are aware that most text based rpg players also play the graphical versions too?

     

       On a more serious note, I've always loved the combat mechanics of Dragonrealms and the room painting in both Dragonrealms and Gemstone are  a lot of fun. Though I am a fast reader, so text scroll doesn't bother me, it might be too much for some to get used to. Very fluid combat that requires you pay attention and make choices as it rolls. Gemstones combat is more primative in some ways or less colourful one might say, it has more numbers involved.

     

      Someone asked about subscription fees, they do have three types of subscriptions unless something has changed since I stopped playing a few years ago. Basic and Premium are the main two, with the price being around 15.00 bucks and 39.00 dollars. I admit to being a bit rusty on recalling the exact price. They also have another subscription called Platinium which I was never a big fan of myself that costs around 49.00 a month.

     

      Platinum is a different server instance of each game, with more events, GM interaction via GM controled events, NPC's etc. Platinum also gives you access to the prime game worlds that the Basic and Premium players play. Regardless, for 24/7/365 access to a game world as a hobby I can't find fault with paying 15.00 to 49.00 a month for a hobby. Kinda why I never understood those who have such a huge issue with the current 10.00 to 15.00 a month for the graphical mmo-rpgs. It is still a cheap hobby.

     

     

     Edit: Forgot to mention the newer "fallen" servers. For those into no moderation game play. Thanks for the reminder on that Mysil. :)

  • CemmCemm Houston, TXPosts: 64Member

    Holey moley, hey there Celtar, Welan and Aluvius! I was Typhus back in GS3 and Cemm in DR and I find myself missing them both quite often. I wish Bubba would have been able to put together some kind of Simu all-access 'Diamond' level account so we didn't have to choose. I'd even have dabbled more in Modus Operandi with an all-access account.

    I know GS4 has taken strides to try and make skill selection a lot more open and less of a 'Plan your character's entire career out before it even starts or prepare for tears later on!' situation like when we all started in the early to mid 90's. Can you believe it was 18 years ago?? At least for me, a bit longer for the three of you old timers (haha)!

    Forced to choose though, I'd love to wander around in DragonRealms again. The freedom of learning what I wanted when I wanted, choosing any weapon, etc. were huge selling points to me from early on. The vast world to explore and diverse environments. I always felt that both Gemstone and DragonRealms were pretty well written. Ah well, definitely in for an afternoon of nostalgia now.

  • LimChoriLimChori San Gabriel, CAPosts: 4Member

    prep 702

    cast 702

    prep 720

    cast 720

    From TSC to Wehiemner Gate

    ne,n,n,e,n,go gate

    Just off the top of my head

  • LimChoriLimChori San Gabriel, CAPosts: 4Member

    btw original Cienna from GS III

  • AcmegamerAcmegamer Selah, WAPosts: 337Member

    Originally posted by Cemm

    Holey moley, hey there Celtar, Welan and Aluvius! I was Typhus back in GS3 and Cemm in DR and I find myself missing them both quite often. I wish Bubba would have been able to put together some kind of Simu all-access 'Diamond' level account so we didn't have to choose. I'd even have dabbled more in Modus Operandi with an all-access account.

    I know GS4 has taken strides to try and make skill selection a lot more open and less of a 'Plan your character's entire career out before it even starts or prepare for tears later on!' situation like when we all started in the early to mid 90's. Can you believe it was 18 years ago?? At least for me, a bit longer for the three of you old timers (haha)!

    Forced to choose though, I'd love to wander around in DragonRealms again. The freedom of learning what I wanted when I wanted, choosing any weapon, etc. were huge selling points to me from early on. The vast world to explore and diverse environments. I always felt that both Gemstone and DragonRealms were pretty well written. Ah well, definitely in for an afternoon of nostalgia now.

     Hey Cemm, I'd have recognized the account name anywhere. :) Part of what drove me away from Gemstone was that Marty/GM Warden kept driving for changes that made the game mechanics more narrowly defined as what you could and couldn't do. Note all the various training paths I did over the years. Once he became Senior GM things grew worse and between him and Eric/Bubba I just couldn't stand to log in. 

     

      GM Warden's view of the games mechanics were more like these main stream graphical mmo-rpgs, when he stepped down finally I thought that was the best thing that ever happened to GS. That year after year he'd make my characters unviable really grew tiresome. Changing spell casting failures in various armors, raising point costs in various skills etc etc.  Nice guy Marty but honestly couldn't stand his point of view on game mechanics design and how he changed mechanics from where they had started when I started years before he came along to where they were when I left.

     

      He also was terrible about communicating on what his team was doing and also would infringe upon the other areas that were not his responsibility. Sadly many of those SGM's in charge of the other areas or GMs for that matter would take what he said as law when he wasn't the PM, just because he was for so long "the go to man" when it came to mechanics. Most GMs would buckle behind the scenes and say "oh well Marty told me to do it that way." He pretty much acted like autonomous power in the games behind the scenes structure. I blame Simu Melissa for that since she was too green and nice to really be put in charge of the game back then. She didn't understand as much as she needed to in order to keep Marty in check. Each PM or APM after Melissa would leave the sleeping cat alone.

     

      The other thing that kept me from going back after a time was Eric/Simu Bubba, I could barely deal with him as PM of Dragonrealms once he took over after Eric Slick went over to HerosJourney development. As time went it got worse, though not a bad guy to have a drink with or three, Eric was a mixed bag. He holds personal grudges and isn't very professional and gets very emotional when provoked. Apologies from Eric are rare and he's quick to tantrums and acting out while doing so. David Whately (Simu's head honcho) should have paid attention to Eric's antics long ago. Once Eric took over as PM over both Dragonrealms and now Gemstone I knew my time was over. I couldn't avoid the guy and it got old when he'd get all passive aggressive in his private sends, emails and forum posts. 

     

      He was supposed to leave Gemstone alone and let the APM run things but that didn't last as I said it wouldn't. lol.  Hell he'd go off someone who he "thought" was me forgetting my account name and simply replying to the a poster who also signed off as Jim/James. I recall someone forwarding one of those links to me one day, where he went off and someone had to gently point out that it wasn't Jim/Celtar posting. Defensive much, Eric?

     

     Anyhow on to lighter stuff, I miss our community of thousands of players, whether you all got along or not, you were family. I miss the role-play, the events, and the interactions, hell I even miss Eric sometimes. lol I miss the Gladiator Games! I miss friends who have died over the years, they live on in my memories of course. Not as bad as I used to ramble but still a long post.  Anyhow nice to see your are still around Cemm! :) 

     

     

     

     

      

  • AcmegamerAcmegamer Selah, WAPosts: 337Member

    Originally posted by LimChori

    prep 702

    cast 702

    prep 720

    cast 720

    From TSC to Wehiemner Gate

    ne,n,n,e,n,go gate

    Just off the top of my head

      LOL! Sorcerer spell spam! :) I do miss playing my sorcerer who started out as a two handed sword wielding sorcerer and later on once we were able to reallocate skills became a archer sorcerer. Now that I've gotten rid of all my macros, highlights, help files etc I could never learn all that again to play him well. I purposely deleted all those old files and notes I'd been holding onto since 1992 when I left a few years ago finally for the last time. Same thing for the Dragonrealms stuff. Figured it was the best way to keep me from being tempted to going back. 

     

     

     

  • colonnelli71colonnelli71 new windsor, NYPosts: 52Member

    I am pretty sure I remember you Cemm. Were you a trailblazer? I still remember alot of the old trailblazers..Violet, Gurt, Mir, Elriic, Wyett, Shapeshifter. Those were the days....

  • AcmegamerAcmegamer Selah, WAPosts: 337Member

    Originally posted by colonnelli71

    I am pretty sure I remember you Cemm. Were you a trailblazer? I still remember alot of the old trailblazers..Violet, Gurt, Mir, Elriic, Wyett, Shapeshifter. Those were the days....

     

        He was. :) Oh and I was more known in the  TB days as Shargr Hightower or Celtar Lomion. Damn beta testing on GEnie ended without a warning that a reset was the final one. So at first I was stuck with Shargr who was meant to be an experiement.  Then the AOL folks got access and the things went pretty crazy population wise.

     

     

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