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General: From MUD to MMO

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  • PentharianPentharian Memphis, TNPosts: 2Member

    I will unashamedly identify myself as a volunteer admin on Achaea so there's no accusations of it otherwise. 

     

    Khaeros has written that combat systems are required and should be bannable, two wide-sweeping accusations.

    I have been playing Achaea for nearly 10 years now, working my way from a complete newbie to MUDs to a guild leader, city leader, and eventually a god/Admin. In that entire time, I have never had any kind of combat system, and never felt that it was required. There are also plenty of people who will help you create your own for free if you feel you need one because you want to be involved in combat. Yes, paying for a system will get you ahead faster, but then isn't that true for just about any game out there?

    In some games, no automation of any kind is allowed. In IRE games, there is. It's simply a matter of preference, and I don't fault anyone for feeling they'd like to play in a game that allows or doesn't allow triggers. 

     

    I've put in well over 300 days of non-afk play time in Achaea since 2002, and I don't regret any of it. I've never paid a cent for it, neither to the players for a system, nor to IRE for credits. 

    Achaea is a game where if you wish to have fun by roleplaying, you can do so. Not every other player is going to facilitate it necessarily, but this is true of any game. You will find a group of people who want to roleplay and/or socialize with you, and with them I can almost guarantee that you will have fun. 

    As some others have written, I have played lots and lots of games in the last decade, and I've tried other MUDs and graphical MMORPGs, and none of them ever holds my attention for long like Achaea does. I'm sure other IRE players have had similar experiences with Lusternia, Imperian, Aetolia, and Midkemia; I haven't played them much because I know that I don't have enough hours in the day!

     

    Edit: TL:DR: a lot of people claim that you need to spend money to have fun in an IRE game. I have a decade of play in an IRE game that says otherwise. 

  • pimo91pimo91 Vernon Hills, ILPosts: 1Member

    Achaea, is by far, the best game i've ever played. I have tried other MUDs but Achaea was my first. Heck, i wouldn't even classify myself as a 'gamer' or anything. I honestly play Achaea, and I play Madden seasonally... other than that, I started playing Achaea... 6 years ago now I think. And what a journey it has been! There's so many things to do and the healing and affliction system in the game, as well as the abilities there are, there's so many to choose from it would be hard to not find something new. I love the challenge of combat in Achaea, a challenge that is never ending in my opinion. 

    Anyways, I would take Achaea over any other video game simply because what you do as a city or individual or another organization can impact the history of the game, and there is plenty history in Achaea! There's no "I won, now what." Because there's no end-game result. There's politics, houses (guilds) good, evil, nature, chaos, merchants, peaceful people, MANY different options, and I must say they do a heck of a job keeping things new.... GO ACHAEA!

  • KhaerosKhaeros Monroe, NYPosts: 452Member

    Achaea has pretty cool combat, in theory.  I like how there's all sorts of affects that you can have and combat is based around application and removal of these effects - it adds a nice layer that isn't just 'Type kill and hope for the best'.

     

    But when you start letting scripts do it for you, what fun is the combat, really?

     

    Uh oh, the guy removed my insomnia def.  Now I'm vulnerable to sleep effects.  What do I do? Oh, well I have a script that will automatically outr the root and eat, or just apply survival insomnia.  Welp, don't have to do anything at all!

     

    It's a cool idea that becomes needless with the implementation of scripts.  All it does is separates people who have good scripts from people who don't.  Might as well go to smaug style pvp.

     

    Like I said, the artifacts aren't that bad.  The problem is the automation (and how artis make great PvPers nigh immortal - they work fine on lesser-skilled players). 

     

    Roleplay on Achaea isn't anything to write home about, either.  I always found the RP just a tool that people use to get excuses to PK people.  It's better than New Worlds (that place is terrible) but that really isn't saying much.  Player-run organizations are the best thing the game has going for it, and I admit that this is probably the best part of the game structure - and a very good one, too.

     

    edit:  That said, most MUDs have player-run clans anyway, and because of the close relationship between staff and player, the player's actions usually cause the staff to make changes in the world to reflect it.  Achaea gives some more power to players, but the imms are still actively involved on their god characters..

     

    I wouldn't suggest the game to any of my friends.  There's just many other MUDs out there that have more interesting roleplay and pvp.

     

    edit: bad grammar

  • PentharianPentharian Memphis, TNPosts: 2Member

    Some people enjoy the challenge of writing systems that will work under any circumstance. I certainly will agree that there comes a time where it's less intensely trying to fight and more letting your scripts work, though a lot of people get a thrill when things don't work just as planned and they need to do some quick thinking on their own. It's a dynamic that has evolved over a long time, and as I said before it's up to an individual person if it's the type of game they'd like to be in. 

    It's also not required that you take part in combat at all, though it's very likely that you're going to encounter it and probably ought to be at least semi-competent in it. 

    As far as the roleplay, it depends on who you associate yourself with. We do not enforce roleplay to an extreme, though people can't simply sit around and speak ooc. They have to do it either on an OOC clan or else privately in a place other players can't get such as a player-owned house. 

    Player-run orgs, as you mentioned, open things up to really incredible political roleplay.

    Some people decide that they don't like IRE games, and that's fine. Everyone has their own tastes and unless you like Superman64 or the Atari ET, your choices are your own and respectable as an individual. I just wanted to throw out some counterarguments to your points. 

  • ThievThiev ChristchurchPosts: 1Member

    Having played games of all sorts over the last few years, I've always found myself coming back to one game - Achaea. I greatly enjoy the wide range of activities the game offers, be it through PVP, questing, hunting, or any of numerous professions. You have the ability to create a whole new person, with his own emotions, and desires, allowing you to become involved in an amazing role laying atmosphere.



    As many others have said, at first, the streaming text lines may be a bit overwhelming but with time and the extremely helpful Administration and player base, soon enough you will become immersed in a world of adventure.



    Give Achaea (Or any of the Iron Realms games) a chance, and you definitely won't be disappointed. It has become one of my favourite ways to spend some free time, and has not cost me a cent.

  • AluviusAluvius New York, NYPosts: 288Member

    Originally posted by Eliandal

    Originally posted by Aluvius

    Oh and for those that moan about paying $15 a month for gaming .. back in the stone age many of us Gemstone players regularly had $100-300 monthly bills from GENie.

    You don't know how good you have it these days.  :)

     

     

      HAH HAH!  Cheapo :D!  I remember (I think it was) Fxg complaining about a $1200 bill one month (Or maybe it was Sindar - yes, I've been around that long :P).  Even though at one time I had a Genie comp account (courtesy of my father) because I lived in Canada - the connection fees were outrageous.

     

      I still have an active account (well, actually it's my ex's account that I took over in '99) - actually just reactivated in August to see what's happening (fun to see some of the old regulars still around like Kerl/Arwen Ardwen etc.

     

      ...and yes, I know of Welan !

    LOL, well I was in college when I started in 91/92 so I was playing with a credit card from my parents.  The first time I got a $450 bill from GEnie my mother freaked out.  So I did my best to keep it lower after that.  Once it hit the web I sort of wasted several years of my life on unlimited play time ... damn, what a crazy time that was :)

    The funny thing is that I only got Aluvius to level 42 in 8-9 years hehe.

  • AzarithAzarith League City, TXPosts: 50Member Uncommon

    I remember playing Moongate (Later renamed to Materia Magica).



    For me it's most memorable feature is something that the MMO space could use. It had 3 different types of PvP areas.

    Lawful (LPK) was like dueling.

    Neutral  (NPK) you died and turned into a ghost for a bit.

    Chaotic (CPK) you could be pick pocketed and could drop items or equipment when you died.

    Some of the best resources in the game were in a CPK area that had multiple underground areas. Some tense moments stealthing around down there on my own.



    http://www.materiamagica.com/guide/combat (Click the PK tab)

  • shavashava Somerville, MAPosts: 282Member Uncommon

    I am an elder on DragonMUD and was a common contributor on MOO-cows, an email list of academics who were working on what would, today, be called the "serious games" applications of objection oriented M** environments.

    I like to think one of my favorite contributions was the illusion garden on DragonMUD (as Rhadamant), which was both a puzzle and ornamental area which violated spatial physics in some delightful ways, but to no real end except to be a bit psychedelic and playful.  There was no special point except that it was beautiful and whimsical and fun interactive fiction with a few puzzle bits built in.

    And, the dance studio was simply a lovely piece of what would probably now be termed steampunk (as Dhardan) -- nostalgic Victoriana, with a little magic thrown in, which served absolutely no purpose at all but to be a social hub where people could come, have social triggers available (chair, tea, hang coat,...) and socialize in a very civilized but bohemian atmosphere.

    When I read Koster's A Theory of Fun (Which, if you are interested in game design -- you should, you have haven't you?  Go read it.  Now.) I felt it just filled in the edges of what we were exploring then, and Ultima and SWG expanded with so much more resources.

    Now, game designers spend more time on retention, budgets, optimization for localization systems, and so on -- than fun, beauty, touching depth in the observer.  It's more about the addiction end of obsession than the collaboration and community end, which is where the old sandboxes (which is what MUDs were) lived.

    Even Eve is more worried about population and monocles.

    Eventually the industry will turn around, as large productions become obsoleted and toolkits and mods become commodities.  Then curated environments, I hope, will become part of the game, and storytelling, events, augmentation, concierge services, and other personalizations will become part of the industry...a grrl can dream, can't she? :)

  • shavashava Somerville, MAPosts: 282Member Uncommon

    I am an elder on DragonMUD and was a common contributor on MOO-cows, an email list of academics who were working on what would, today, be called the "serious games" applications of objection oriented M** environments.

    I like to think one of my favorite contributions was the illusion garden on DragonMUD (as Rhadamant), which was both a puzzle and ornamental area which violated spatial physics in some delightful ways, but to no real end except to be a bit psychedelic and playful.  There was no special point except that it was beautiful and whimsical and fun interactive fiction with a few puzzle bits built in.

    And, the dance studio was simply a lovely piece of what would probably now be termed steampunk (as Dhardan) -- nostalgic Victoriana, with a little magic thrown in, which served absolutely no purpose at all but to be a social hub where people could come, have social triggers available (chair, tea, hang coat,...) and socialize in a very civilized but bohemian atmosphere.

    When I read Koster's A Theory of Fun (Which, if you are interested in game design -- you should, you have haven't you?  Go read it.  Now.) I felt it just filled in the edges of what we were exploring then, and Ultima and SWG expanded with so much more resources.

    Now, game designers spend more time on retention, budgets, optimization for localization systems, and so on -- than fun, beauty, touching depth in the observer.  It's more about the addiction end of obsession than the collaboration and community end, which is where the old sandboxes (which is what MUDs were) lived.

    Even Eve is more worried about population and monocles.

    Eventually the industry will turn around, as large productions become obsoleted and toolkits and mods become commodities.  Then curated environments, I hope, will become part of the game, and storytelling, events, augmentation, concierge services, and other personalizations will become part of the industry...a grrl can dream, can't she? :)

  • CembryeCembrye Washington, DCPosts: 54Member

    Another Gemstone III lover!  I still hold out hope that Simutronics will get around to finishing Heroes Journey.

    I fervently hope the MMO industry will begin to diversify and become more creative again when it comes to recapturing the magic of the old MUDS.  The glitzy and seemingly endless theme parks on rails are turning a whole generation of gamers into people who are used to being observers instead of creators and participants in virtual worlds.

    Alas, I suspect it won't happen.  The bottom line rules.  If they lose one mature RP loving customer and replace him/her with two people who don't care about anything but grinding to end game and raiding for gear, they count themselves as successful.  The result are beautiful but souless worlds that inhibit rather than support deep and meaningful story telling and roleplay.



     

  • JimmacJimmac TXPosts: 1,667Member Uncommon

    Anyone have any opinions on Shattered Kingdoms. Been reading up on it and it sounds nice.

  • Spectral08Spectral08 Orland, CAPosts: 8Member

    All this talk of Gemstone has got me totally nostalgic.  I started playing GS3 through Prodigy and then AOL, up until Asheron's Call came out, and then GS3 turned into GS4.  In addition to the RPing and the live GM events, I also enjoyed the game mechanics - it was based on the old d100 Rolemaster rules.  I can still remember my first trip from WL to Icemule Trace ater it had just been released.  Who knew one could be brought to the edge of their seat by text!  :-) 

    Never did try GS4, and I couldn't remember my account info if I tried.  As I do with today's MMOs, I had alt-itis and had a bunch of characters at various levels.  Some things never change, I guess!

  • KhaerosKhaeros Monroe, NYPosts: 452Member

    Originally posted by Jimmac

    Anyone have any opinions on Shattered Kingdoms. Been reading up on it and it sounds nice.

     

    It's a game that combines roleplay and hack/slash.  When last I played, roleplay is required (especially if you are going to involve yourself in religion or a cabal/trib), but you aren't held to any specific standard unless you roll Paladin.

     

    Since there are so many religions / cabals to choose from in such a low-pop game, things may seem a little small to you.  At least, they did for me - I guess it helps though, since you make friends with a few people and get to know them.  The upside to this is that there's going to be at least one organization to fit your character concept.

     

    Just remember that the people still playing SK are people who have been hanging around for a very long time.  They have grown old with the game.  Breaking into the game-wide clique may be a chore (and you will encounter drama, like any other roleplay MUD) but if you're there for the roleplay, pvp and hack/slash in one package, you will enjoy it.

     

    If SK doesn't happen to fit your tastes, there's also Forgotten Kingdoms, which very closely straddles D&D FR in all its features.

  • AcmegamerAcmegamer Selah, WAPosts: 337Member

     

     The player base has changed and wouldn't embrace things that many of us who played in those older forms of multi-player rpgs. They wouldn't like the risk of perma death, item breakage, and corpse runs. I would love to see a graphical game world that did embrace many of those concepts and added to the mix the improvements of what has come out in the past 12 years. I just don't see it happening.

     

     I still think that text based rpgs still are superior to any graphical rpg in regards to crafting, character customization, TOS enforcement, GMs abilities to on the fly make events that effected the game world etc. As has been noted Simutronics for all their short comings did do many things right. I kept hoping that they'd eventually open up a Hero Journey shard that could handle their GS and DR player base. They'd make money on it as they always have and we'd get the community that we all loved and the interaction and support from staff that we have long gotten used to. 

     

     Sadly that never happened and I stopped holding my breath that it ever would. I another one of the refugees of Simutronics games. Onother one of the old guard players, or as we were sometimes called "Ice Agers" in Gemstone III/IV. (One of those players who when you'd log in and if you went to your locker it wasn't surprising to find some GM snooping around to see what goodies you had from the old days in your locker).

     

       I also was one of the beta tester players of Dragonrealms (a Trailblazer as we were known ..still have all the gear for that too lol including my nifty scripted badge..a feat since we have corpse rot and item decay). Fun fun times, a sense of wonder, exploration, coin to be made, role-play to to be had. Conflicts to be see and be a part of.

     

     I just don't see any game really embracing some of these mechanics that got your blood pumping, that cause you to scramble to rescue a friend or their gear. The player base is different now, and we won't see a return to this type of play. Read forums long enough and you'll know its true. The rants that are caused when someone mentions some of the harsher game mechanics are quite long. At least we have the memories.

     

     Jim aka Celtar/Greyslayer 

     

    p.s: Greets Aluvius and others from those days. :) There are less and less of us every year.

  • KhaerosKhaeros Monroe, NYPosts: 452Member

    To be fair, corpse runs in graphical MMOs are fairly different from corpse runs in MUDs.  Knowing the room layout and having speedwalks at your fingertips makes MUD corpse running a relatively trivial matter compared to MMOs where travel times are greatly increased.

     

    MUDs with permadeath are also built from the ground up with that fact in mind.  It's not like halfway through the lifespan of the game, an imm goes 'HURR DURR LETS HAVE PPL AUTOSUICIDE WHEN THEY DIE'.  Modern MMOs would have to make it known that they are going for this style at launch, and even then, not many people are going to like the fact that their hundreds of hours could be wasted at any time.

     

    In most permadeath MUDs, it's also easier for staff to keep tabs on what's going on, and punish pkers who don't follow the rules or restore characters who were pkd unfairly (roleplay rules, other general pk rules that couldn't be code-enforced).  Imagine doing this in a graphical environment with one hundred times the playerbase.

     

    Crafting was always dull on almost every MUD I played, except for a few that touted their crafting as a special feature of their game.  It was usually just a skill you used to make something, which works very similar to the crafting in most modern MMOs today.  Maybe you had to use two or three commands.  Wow, how riveting.  Vanguard's crafting was more interesting than most of the junk in the MUD scene, by far, and I consider myself a MUD enthusiast.

     

    What MUDs did do well is that they made crafting useful.  While crafting as a process was incredibly dull, player crafters were typically very useful since they provided some of the best gear for their fellows, which created interaction and economy.

     

    Character customization is a winning point, but most customization-heavy MUDs were roleplay, which isn't really a popular style in MMOs today.  Most of it was pretty simple:  Pick a name, gender, race, class, (maybe roll for stats), bam newbieland.  You could write a desc or MAYBE get to choose what clothes you start out with.

     

     

    TL;DR (in a MUD thread, lol):  Some MUD features wouldn't translate well to graphical MMOs and the mainstream market.  Some MUD features were stupid anyway, and the MMOs either keep it the same stupid or improve on it slightly. 

     

    There's other MUDs besides GS and DR, and you can scrape the bottom of the barrel by just touching some of the top 10.  There are some good ones, though, and they still exist with their harsh penalties so you can continue to be a masochist if it makes you feel 'pumped up'.

     

    Personally, I don't get 'pumped' when those things happen in MUDs anymore.  Someone died?  Welp, let's send out a runner and rezzer and they'll be fine.  It's more routine than panic now.  Permadeath game?  Get their gear and split it.  They'll reroll and get powerleveled anyway once they ask their AIM clique.

  • Belgarion_ABelgarion_A Cookeville, TNPosts: 1Member

    So I started playing Achaea...must have been 16 years ago...Man,  i was like 12, and I still laugh at myself back then.  I had NO idea what was really going on... But I lucked out after a little while and someone really showed me the ropes, and gave me their "zmud" settings.  After learning how to use them, or how they worked, it really opened me up to Really playing the game.  I've went on to be a founding member in Aetolia and Imperian, heading up guilds, cities and clans. I've taken some breaks, especially when i started playing EQ , WoW, CoH, all from day 1 or beta, and I've tested out pretty much any graphical MMO there has ever been with any sort of free trial, but no matter how long I stay away, i Always end up coming back...you know why, cause after 17 years, that guy i spent SO many hours on in middle school and on, is still there, and the world has only gotten better, 100x better, and all at absolutely positively NO cost.  You can't say that about any of those graphical MMO's...I mean,  sure they got better, but you had to buy the expansions, or some of them have already died, and the rest will eventually die also...cause graphics are gonna keep getting better, and people will keep "upgrading" to the next best thing...but when yer talking about true player immersion, about truely having an effect on the gameworld, and other players in that world, Nothing can beat a MUD.  When I get on, I still have people asking me if it I really did what it says i did in Events post 3, if I really was the first Guild leader of  the Mages before they were disbanded, if i really denied the first Vampire Lord Abhorash into making me his Prince.  The player base may only have 100-200 on at a time in Aetolia, and it may only have a couple thousand active players at any one time, but those people really care about whats going on, each one really makes a difference to each other, in no a way that only Eve can really kinda compare to, with its almost completely Player based economy and such.  Well, Iron Realm Entertainment, I love you, and always will.  Achaea, Imperian, Lusternia, and my favourite, Aetolia, you will always lead the MMO world in my heart, text is still massively multiplayer online.

    Belgarion Amaratha of Aetolia

    Tadril Lokrien of Imperian

    Kal Xar of Achaea

    Krixas of Lusternia

  • dentindentin Louisville, KYPosts: 2Member

    Since there's already a screenshot for it in the article, I'd like to recommend Alter Aeon for review.  It's a custom server that's been around for 17 years and has had a lot of updates recently.  It has a very different feel and flavor from IRE games such as Achaea, and the part graphical / part text client makes it a lot easier to explore and find things than on most MUDs.

    -dentin

    Alter Aeon MUD

    http://www.alteraeon.com

    Dragonslayer Wanted!
    Alter Aeon Online RPG
    http://www.dentinmud.org

  • plamziplamzi baton rouge, LAPosts: 3Member

    Like others, I feel players are missing a lot if they've never experienced a MUD.

    I also want to assure you that MUDs are alive and well, and always will be there for those who are looking for substance over eye candy. I run a free MUD with an iOS GUI and a Facebook app. We constantly get people jaded after many years of WoW or after having tried simplistic mobile MMO titles.

    I'm too partial to give out specific recommendations, but I must admit I was a bit surprised to see people mention almost exclusively pay-to-play MUDs. There are literally hundreds of very high-quality free MUDs out there whose devs work hard and deliver some really amazing stuff out of love for the game. A free MUD has a very different dynamic to what the current generation of MMO players has generally experienced. If I were to pick only 3 MUDs to review, and I wanted people to experience something very different, I would not choose any pay-to-play ones.

    Finally, I think one of the greatest things about MUDs that MMOs will never fill is that any player can become a creative content contributor to the game they love. And I don't mean some limited form of crafting or private property ownership--on a free game, they can become area builders, quest masters, and even coders--any number of things that provide a creative outlet as well as teach real-life skills and responsibility, all while you're having fun.

  • MavacarMavacar GothenburgPosts: 328Member

    Haha I was also one of the "Hardcore MUDers" - used Telnet ^^

    Good old NannyMUD... how I miss you

  • RealedazedRealedazed Washington, DCPosts: 103Member Uncommon

    I agree with Plamzi, I would definately review one of the free to play games over a commerical pay to play/pay for perks game.

    A few that come to mind are (I don't play any, but I have heard that they are pretty good, free games:)

    Aardwolf.  They have a flash client and I think a java client. Also if you download MUSHClient, their graphic plug in is really nice, with maps, chat windows, etc.  I haven't played in years, but they stay on the top 10 of Topmudsites.com. 

     Armageddon For the hardcore RPer. Its permadeath, but its pretty fun learning, RPing and dying. Tons of crafts, places to explore and secrets to learn. It has  little more of a learning curve, though. But a very, very helpful community, staff and helpers to get you started.

    Those are just a few that I've tried over the years. There are a bunch on the top list that I don't care for, for one reason or another. But, I'm not going to bash them here. People play them loyaly, so something may be done right. (and no, I'm not talking about IRE games.)

  • BigtoneBigtone highland, INPosts: 1Member

    I played Gemstone during its big heydey, on prodigy, to the move to the web.  I went through the boot to get to Rivers Rest, took one of the first parties to Icemule.... I was lucky to play classes when I think they were at their best, a sorcerer (Zetal) before DC and 702 were nerfed, a warrior (Zartul) before tree spirit parties were nothing but a whisper in the trees, and my favorite main - a Rouge (Verstohlen).

    One of the things gemstone got right that no graphical MMO has done is the lockpicking/trap system.  Sitting in the tower, picking locks, chatting.  There was danger, and it was a science. 

    Playing a rogue/locksmith/thief was a blast... I made some great friends and definately made some great enemies.  

     

    I wish it was cheaper to get back into GS (Or DR for that manner).  I think its kind of wild that its the same price as the graphical super MMORPGS, but I do understand businesses need to be businesses. 

     

    I would love to be able to come back into GS4 and see 1000+ people on like back in the day.  See the north gate filled again with empaths and wounded.  It really is a shame these games aren't as popular as they used to be.  I credit GS as one the reasons I type so fast and also can comprehend/read so quickly.

  • GrumpyMel2GrumpyMel2 Catskills, NYPosts: 1,832Member

    Originally posted by Aluvius

    Oh and for those that moan about paying $15 a month for gaming .. back in the stone age many of us Gemstone players regularly had $100-300 monthly bills from GENie.

    You don't know how good you have it these days.  :)


     

    Hey Aluvius,

    I remember you....great times those were.... hanging out in Town Square and attempting not to get picked clean by Sagan while doing it, or ear-waxed by Harcourt.

    Best yet...defending the breach in the West Wall during invasions...

     

    Welan

     

     

  • JugularJugular Muncie, INPosts: 1Member

    If you look at the majority of surviving MUDs, most of them have not advanced in features or gameplay options since the 90's. Many MUDs also don't have large player bases anymore and development has stagnated. Most of new MUD implementors only seem intent on creating another MUD in the 90's model, and  most of them are just trying to recreate their favorite MUD they left as a disgruntled player.

    It may have a new shiny theme, all new areas, but it's still a hack-and-slash level based number cruncher with a big learning curve with the same old features that all the other games have more or less. Most of these guys just don't understand that todays players do not have the attention span for the massive learning curves of the average MUD.

    And frankly, they only have themselves to blame... in regards to dwindling MUD players when WoW took off, most MUDs did they worst thing ever in regards to their massive learning curves... instead of immersing the player with a fun experience from the beginning, they used bandaid fixes and tried to baby players thru the game with Newbie Helpers (vomit) and taking away features like eating and drinking, and many other dumb ideas. Basically, they have dumbed their game down for idiots. What's left is still a huge learning curve with a boring intro into the game, and it's created a batch of players that expect to be waited on hand and foot as a newbie or they leave when noone helps them.

    Because MUDs are basically just big chat channels.

    All the immersion is lost on an average MUD from the moment they enter the game. The 'adventure' is lost on kids who have to go to websites to learn how to do Supermobs because they are afraid of dying. Newbies won't dare to leave the fountain of the city without someone helping them. Can you blame them? In many games you'll be starving or thirsty, have no idea where you are, and probably dead within 10 minutes because the vast majority of MUDs have no progression and you can easily walk into a room and die instantly. Good luck getting your newbie gear if you have no idea where to go back. Also, 'newbie schools' are a joke and most newbies don't have the patience for them.

    Even the PK muds faded away to nothing because imms quickly (or not) realized that without staff to handle rule breakers, cheaters will run a MUD into the ground. What no PK Mud Imm will ever admit is that cheating on these type of games is childishly easy and there is really no way to catch the smart ones, unless they slip up.

    I mean really, how much longer are MUDs going to demand you pick a Roleplayish name at character creation, and yet this is before you ever even learn about the theme, the races, or even what gender your character is going to be??

    I don't know about MUSHes, but MUDs have devolved if anything. Most of the people who run these games are clueless and have no visionary skills whatsoever. I'm not into chat channels or being hand-held thru an 'adventure' game. This is why I don't play MUDs anymore, although I still keep looking for a gem.  Not surprised though... the vast majority of imms seem to consider atmosphere, emersion, even AI...etc, as dirty words. We need to evolve into the next generation of these games. MUDs are dying a slow death of attrition.

  • KhaerosKhaeros Monroe, NYPosts: 452Member

    Pretty good points Jugular.

     

    Many MUDs are born out of the 'I don't like the people here, me and my clique are gonna pick up our toys and make our own game!' mentality.  Since the cost of creating a MUD is nowhere near creating a graphical MMO, they have the ability to pop up much more often.  A look on MudStats tells you how absurd this has become - so many 0-player games sitting around, waiting for the axe that the staff won't give because it's their MUD where they have all the speshul player characters and their clique is in command.

     

    So while communities split, the games become even more boring and they eventually die out.  The people either leave for a new MUD or stop playing altogether.   MudStats reports an average of 10,000 players mudding during us east primetime.

     

    MUDs are often referred to as games for older gamers, but it's amazing to see how wrong this is.  There are still people under 18 playing MUDs - and there are a lot of them.  While I do find that mudders are more mature than your average MMO gamer, it's not by a landslide.  Every community has its bad apples.  Some of these 'older' gamers are subject to the most ridiculous of things like staff corruption, white-knighting cliques, and a whole lot of cybersex.  Did you know that the top two MUDs - both boasting averages of 600-700 players - are based on sexual gameplay?  Yep, they even beat out Simutronics games!  Or how about the fact that 30% of the top 20 MUDs are cybersex oriented?

     

    Staff corruption?  You think it doesn't happen often?  Check this pastebin, last summer, about Achaea.  More?  Shadows of Isildur, one of the best RPIs that rivalled Armageddon, had an entire section of staff quit because the head staff was batshit insane and corrupt.  They had to shut down, and supposedly will relaunch sometime this month.

     

    Corruption happens a lot in MUDs.  You only really hear about this kind of corruption in fringe MMOs like Mortal Online.  Never in games that boast some sort of popularity.  In MUDs, it's very different.

     

    Immersion.  What a funny topic.  When I was playing Achaea, I didn't feel very immersed.  Why? Story time.

     

    So I played a character that was able to hypnotize others.  The idea (for people unfamiliar) is that I could 'suggest' commands that the player could do, and then 'snap' my fingers and they'll execute it.  Obviously, this has a lot of cool implications - I could get into bases, or just be a thief.

     

    Well, it wasn't so simple.  A mere 20 or so lessons into Survival gives you an ability called Selfishness, which is a toggle that doesn't allow you to give away things at all.  Since most players worth stealing from had this skill, suggesting they give the item didn't work anymore.  If that wasn't enough?  Players are usually taught by their home houses or cities how to avoid theft fairly quickly.  They are practically given most of the triggers they need to prevent a thief from effecting them (with more usually stashed in a paid combat system).

     

    So we had to develop aliases and triggers that would help us steal.  Keep this in mind:  While I am playing a thief-like character, the game is forcing me to play with scripting and commands instead of playing the game.  What a way to break immersion, huh?

     

    Stealing was no longer about my character's talent or the other character/player's awareness.  It was all about 'is there a hole in this character's anti-theft program that I can exploit?'  Way to make me feel like a thief instead of a scripter.  But of course, each time you do steal from a player, they tell their city allll about how you did it, so it gets put into another trigger.  It's easier to break into bases than steal a few coins from a player nowadays because everyone's been jacked up with triggers.  They didn't have to be good, aware players to avoid theft - they just had to have good triggers and they were safe from it.

     

     

    Also, comments on other games.

     

    Dentin rocks.  Check out Alter Aeon.

    Armageddon is also pretty awesome if you're heavy into roleplay.  It's probably as anti-carebear a world as you can get while still calling yourself a heavy roleplaying game.

    Aardwolf is a polished hack & slash game.  It's easy to learn, but hard(ish) to master.  Sounds familiar, doesn't it?  It's the #4 MUD and it seems to share many design philosophies with a certain game we love to hate in MMOs today, but that's why it's so successful.

     

    For the GS / DR people,  DR still has around 400 players and Gemstone does about 300.  Very popular games - #3 and #5 respectively.

  • AerowynAerowyn BUZZARDS BAY, MAPosts: 7,928Member

    a lot of people made an account just to post in this thread.. sort of funny actually.. 

     

    oh on a side note no one knows any surviving MUDs with a nice reincarnation system? the sorts where you hit level cap and are giving the choice to reincarnate as a new more powerful class? used to be tons of those around when I played in the early 90s

    I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

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