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Calling all people who think Sandbox mechanics need to be put back into MMOS!

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Comments

  • ElderRatElderRat Syracuse, NYPosts: 899Member

    Originally posted by Rhavens

    Originally posted by lizardbones

     




    Originally posted by ElderRat






    Originally posted by Rhavens






    Originally posted by Skooma2



    You are not going to  get as many people as you would like to sign  your petition.  The reason that most people play  themeparks rather than sanboxes is that it is really only a sandbox for people who have been playing since the beginning.  If  you are not there at the start, you are not entering a sandbox; you are entering a themepark world created by the players who were there before you.   It is no longer a sandbox for you because you will encounter a world created by others.






    I don't agree (in a constructive way) with you. If we do a paralel with the real world, generations built the world before us and still, it constantly evolve. No one puts a path before me I must follow, I can choose whatever I want to do or wherever I want to go. A sandbox is as much a virtual world as it is a video game.






    this.








    That's not how MMORPG work. They do not constantly evolve unless the developers change them. In Eve Online, the latest stories of someone worming their way into a corporation are the same as the stories from a year ago. Only the individuals and the scale of the events change. The chain of events is just a repeat of the events that happened a year ago. All MMORPG are like this. Unless you're there when the door opens, you're just going back over and doing something that somebody has already done.



    There are only two exceptions to this. One is to allow players to mod the game itself and the second is to have the players create their own rules that are socially enforced and everyone plays along. Ultima Online auction houses are an example of the second and so are the RPG/PvP servers in WoW where one side or the other 'owns' a section of land because they won a battle. It's by common player agreement that this works. The first method (mods) will not happen in an MMORPG.



    I don't agree with Skooma2's verbiage (sandbox games are sandbox games, regardless of how old they are), but new players are still just retreading content that's been done by older players whether they are playing a sandbox game or a theme park.



    ** edit **

    I have no interest in playing what is possibly the most boring game in existence just to prove a point. I will keep playing the games I like. For now, that's Minecraft.

     

    Without going as extreme as giving the ability to players to "mod" the games, I think it would be possible to let them make significant changes to the world and the environment.

    For example (I like giving examples lol): a faction builds a city with houses and infrastructures and another faction decides to attack this city and destroy it, this faction will then increase it's influence over the teritory. Ok that's a very simple overview of the situation but that would imply an evolution positive or negative on the environment. No one did mod the game but its world changed, physicaly (the city was destroyed) and culturaly (a faction expand its influence over another).

    Shadowbane.

    Currently bored with MMO's.

  • KhaerosKhaeros Monroe, NYPosts: 452Member

    It would take more than MMORPG.com forum hivemind to make sandboxes appear profitable.

  • ahnonamisahnonamis Portland, ORPosts: 10Member

    I think the big problem is, the modern "sandbox" games have really put an unreasonable expectation on that form of game relating to an MMO. And the amount of people who want a TRUE sandbox game, vs ones who want a game with an easy progression and easier understood rewards for spending their time, is just not that great. There have been plenty of really fun sandbox MMOs in the last few years, but not a single one of them has had any real success. The one exception (depending on your definition) may be EVE, but that's also not a valid one as that's more due to the nature and setting of the game.

     

    If you try to force companies like Blizzard into making MMOs more niche and complicated, it's going to go back to how it was in the days of UO and EQ where playing an MMO was a really lame thing to do, and most other gamers (and the general public) frowned upon it. Genres evolve, and just because the popular AAA games aren't made using the model you want to see, doesn't mean you need to protest them. Get people together, and play one of the actual games that fit the model you like. Support the developers because you like the game they made, not because you hate the game that other companies made. 

     

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by ElderRat


    Originally posted by lizardbones
     



    Originally posted by ElderRat




    Originally posted by Rhavens




    Originally posted by Skooma2






    That's not how MMORPG work. They do not constantly evolve unless the developers change them. In Eve Online, the latest stories of someone worming their way into a corporation are the same as the stories from a year ago. Only the individuals and the scale of the events change. The chain of events is just a repeat of the events that happened a year ago. All MMORPG are like this. Unless you're there when the door opens, you're just going back over and doing something that somebody has already done.

    There are only two exceptions to this. One is to allow players to mod the game itself and the second is to have the players create their own rules that are socially enforced and everyone plays along. Ultima Online auction houses are an example of the second and so are the RPG/PvP servers in WoW where one side or the other 'owns' a section of land because they won a battle. It's by common player agreement that this works. The first method (mods) will not happen in an MMORPG.

    I don't agree with Skooma2's verbiage (sandbox games are sandbox games, regardless of how old they are), but new players are still just retreading content that's been done by older players whether they are playing a sandbox game or a theme park.

     

    guess we can just disagree then, but  which do you prefer? The retreaded sandbox where you at least have the illusion of freedom or the retreaded Themepark where you are buckled safely in for the ride?


    To me, it matters a lot more how well the game is written and whether or not the content is compelling. I won't buy or play a game because it's a theme park or because it's a sandbox. The game has to offer something I want to do, whether that's watch a story or build a house. That doesn't answer your question, but to me, it's irrelevant.

    ** edit **
    Your question is relevant, the distinction between sandbox and theme park isn't (to me).

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • ForumPvPForumPvP KingstownPosts: 871Member

    yes! thats why i voted yes and I bought Metropolis  DVD,because i dont like EVE so much,now you will suffer themepark carebears!!suffer!

    im watching it here now,can you feel my wrath!

    this protest is growing !

    Let's internet

  • ElderRatElderRat Syracuse, NYPosts: 899Member

    Originally posted by lizardbones

     




    Originally posted by ElderRat





    Originally posted by lizardbones

     








    Originally posted by ElderRat










    Originally posted by Rhavens












    Originally posted by Skooma2




















    That's not how MMORPG work. They do not constantly evolve unless the developers change them. In Eve Online, the latest stories of someone worming their way into a corporation are the same as the stories from a year ago. Only the individuals and the scale of the events change. The chain of events is just a repeat of the events that happened a year ago. All MMORPG are like this. Unless you're there when the door opens, you're just going back over and doing something that somebody has already done.



    There are only two exceptions to this. One is to allow players to mod the game itself and the second is to have the players create their own rules that are socially enforced and everyone plays along. Ultima Online auction houses are an example of the second and so are the RPG/PvP servers in WoW where one side or the other 'owns' a section of land because they won a battle. It's by common player agreement that this works. The first method (mods) will not happen in an MMORPG.



    I don't agree with Skooma2's verbiage (sandbox games are sandbox games, regardless of how old they are), but new players are still just retreading content that's been done by older players whether they are playing a sandbox game or a theme park.



     






    guess we can just disagree then, but  which do you prefer? The retreaded sandbox where you at least have the illusion of freedom or the retreaded Themepark where you are buckled safely in for the ride?







    To me, it matters a lot more how well the game is written and whether or not the content is compelling. I won't buy or play a game because it's a theme park or because it's a sandbox. The game has to offer something I want to do, whether that's watch a story or build a house. That doesn't answer your question, but to me, it's irrelevant.

     

    It doesn't sound, to me - my opinion of your posts(could be wrong), that you like any games right now.  Well they are not going to change  without a call for change.  All that is required for evil to win is that good men do nothing.  Now I am not saying the current situation  in mmo's is evil... but the point remains - if you do not like it and you do nothing then you are part of the problem not the solution. either way hope you find a game you like.

     

    Currently bored with MMO's.

  • musicmannmusicmann port allen, LAPosts: 1,107Member

    No need for a protest. It's easy to see that the up cycle for 100% thempark style games is getting less and less. With games like Skyrim, Red Dead Redemption, Minecraft some other open console games, that are a huge success, i really feel the trend to make open world Sandbox style mmo's will start to make a upswing once again. I really feel the majority of mmo gamers are just burnt out on thempark, tell me where to go and what to do on rail mmo's. Take a look at TOR and the new crop of games coming out. I really believe that TOR will be the last of the true thempark mmo's. GW2, TSW, Archeage are all moving away from the norm and i also really believe that the game that goes the furthest away and gives the community the tools to really build within the online world will be the most successful.

  • elockeelocke Manassas, VAPosts: 4,205Member Uncommon

    Shouldn't we wait to see what TSW, GW2 and ArcheAge bring to the table? I mean aren't they doing exactly what we would be protesting for? 

    image
  • mtbsickridermtbsickrider Miami, FLPosts: 58Member

    Voted Yes, Just pm me and ill join , im pretty sure with a 30 man group all subbibg at the same time, itd be nice to play any game. 

  • DrunkWolfDrunkWolf Posts: 1,180Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Keogh

    I see the buzz word "sandbox" thrown around so much. I'm not certian that any 2 people mean the same thing when they use the term.

    Please, difine the meaning of the word "sandbox" as it pertains to the MMO.

    Is it a game like Second Life or Tale in the Desert? Are there no quests in it at all? Is it something without any direction at all?

    It seems that endgame in any MMO is a sandbox, and people complain there is nothing to do.

    Or is it just game feature that you are talking about like crafting and housing?

    When I see "sandbox" I think, no quests, no story, nothing but avatars and a combat system.

     

    So, please describe exactly what a "sandbox" game is?

     there are alot of " opinions " of what a real sandbox game is.

    the best one i played was Asherons Call, there was a huge map to explore and tons and tons of quest to do. but you didnt see NPCs with a icon above their head telling you to go kill 10 rats, quest in that game you had to find. let me give you a example.

     

    when i was still starting off i saw a guy run threw my town with a bad ass looking sword that had fire all over it. so i asked him, hey mind telling me what droped that sword? he said he made it from items dropped off golems, so i went hunting golems for a week till i got enough of these items, then he explained how i needed to make the sword. i needed to find sombody with high alchemy to turn those items into a ingot to make my sword. once that was done i had my sword, but it was plain with no fire. he then said i needed to go to this portal way up in the mountains that will send me to a dungeon, at the bottom i will find the fire stone for the sword.

     

    i got a crew together and we went off looking for this portal, few hours later we found it. I then wrote down the coordinates so i allways know the location of this portal for next time. after being lost for god knows how long in the dungeon and after recovering corpses and killing off tons of respawns, and doing skilled jumps to platforms to get across a pit. if one person fell everybody had to jump down or he would die down there alone. we finally made it to the end and got our fire stones. felt pretty epic because it was hard to do and took awhile to acomplish it.

     

    i didnt need a NPC with a light above his head telling me what to do, i did

    nt need a huge X on the map showing me were the portal was, i didnt need a instanced easymode dungeon with no respawns.

    I was able to interact with the community find what i was looking for with my friends and finished a very challenging quest.

    to me that is sandbox.

    sombody out there was the first to find this portal and do this quest and by word of mouth it got around the community on what to do.

    in todays games a quest like this is very simple, i talk to the NPC press yess a bunch of times not even careing what he is saying, press M bring up my map look for the big X go there kill some stuff, return to NPC get my XP then move on to the next boring same quest from another NPC. and if i run into players they are just some noob in my way.

  • TruthXHurtsTruthXHurts El Do, KSPosts: 1,555Member

    Originally posted by ahnonamis

    I think the big problem is, the modern "sandbox" games have really put an unreasonable expectation on that form of game relating to an MMO. And the amount of people who want a TRUE sandbox game, vs ones who want a game with an easy progression and easier understood rewards for spending their time, is just not that great. There have been plenty of really fun sandbox MMOs in the last few years, but not a single one of them has had any real success. The one exception (depending on your definition) may be EVE, but that's also not a valid one as that's more due to the nature and setting of the game.

     

    If you try to force companies like Blizzard into making MMOs more niche and complicated, it's going to go back to how it was in the days of UO and EQ where playing an MMO was a really lame thing to do, and most other gamers (and the general public) frowned upon it. Genres evolve, and just because the popular AAA games aren't made using the model you want to see, doesn't mean you need to protest them. Get people together, and play one of the actual games that fit the model you like. Support the developers because you like the game they made, not because you hate the game that other companies made. 

     

    What happens when they can't make games anymore simple and the playerbase is still to dumb to understand? What if, say in 10 years games like WoW will just be too complicated for the average player. You current themepark players will be in the exact same boat with us Sandboxers.

    "I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"

  • ZekiahZekiah Aurora, COPosts: 2,499Member

    Originally posted by Zlayer77

     

    So the question is would you SUB to a sandbox game for 1 month in Protest!

    No, this will do NOTHING.

    The solution is simple, the problem is getting the majority on board...

     

    STOP PAYING FOR CRAP TITLES. PERIOD!

    "Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky

  • ForumPvPForumPvP KingstownPosts: 871Member

    Originally posted by TruthXHurts

    What happens when they can't make games anymore simple and the playerbase is still to dumb to understand? What if, say in 10 years games like WoW will just be too complicated for the average player. You current themepark players will be in the exact same boat with us Sandboxers.

    Its allready happening ,mafia wars MMORPG,etc. WoW is too complicated sandbox for millions of people.

     

    Let's internet

  • BadSpockBadSpock Somewhere, MIPosts: 7,974Member

    Originally posted by DrunkWolf

    in todays games a quest like this is very simple, i talk to the NPC press yess a bunch of times not even careing what he is saying, press M bring up my map look for the big X go there kill some stuff, return to NPC get my XP then move on to the next boring same quest from another NPC. and if i run into players they are just some noob in my way.

    So don't do the quests.

    You are the one controlling the character. You can choose not to click on the NPC with the icon above its head.

    This is what I don't think many of these hardcore sandbox types understand...

    You are choosing to play the game the efficient / easy way because you are just as lazy as everyone else.

     

    It's like, to me, when I was playing EvE online - farming missions was a good way for me to make money given my skill set, but it was boring as sin.

     

  • AxehiltAxehilt San Francisco, CAPosts: 8,765Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by musicmann

    No need for a protest. It's easy to see that the up cycle for 100% thempark style games is getting less and less. With games like Skyrim, Red Dead Redemption, Minecraft some other open console games, that are a huge success, i really feel the trend to make open world Sandbox style mmo's will start to make a upswing once again. I really feel the majority of mmo gamers are just burnt out on thempark, tell me where to go and what to do on rail mmo's. Take a look at TOR and the new crop of games coming out. I really believe that TOR will be the last of the true thempark mmo's. GW2, TSW, Archeage are all moving away from the norm and i also really believe that the game that goes the furthest away and gives the community the tools to really build within the online world will be the most successful.

    You say the online world furthest away from themepark will be successful, yet all your examples aren't online worlds.

    (Which is why they work.  Singleplayer sandboxes work.  MMO ones?  Not so much.)

    You also list Skyrim, which is almost a textbook definition of themepark.  Skyrim is a bunch of themepark rides, and you choose which ones you ride, but you don't create rides at all.  Actually that's also the case with RDR.  There wasn't much "sand" in either game, where users were actually creating their own experience (apart from mods, but the overwhelming majority don't make mods.)

    "Joe stated his case logically and passionately, but his perceived effeminate voice only drew big gales of stupid laughter..." -Idiocracy
    "There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates

  • BadSpockBadSpock Somewhere, MIPosts: 7,974Member

    Originally posted by Zekiah

    Originally posted by Zlayer77

    So the question is would you SUB to a sandbox game for 1 month in Protest!

     

    No, this will do NOTHING.

    The solution is simple, the problem is getting the majority on board...

    STOP PAYING FOR CRAP TITLES. PERIOD!

    Have you guys stopped and thought that maybe the majority doesn't think the titles are crap and as such doesn't mind paying for them?

    Honestly ya'll sound like parents in the 50's who were trying to force their kids to not buy and like Elvis records because Elvis was crap in their eyes.

  • ZaltarkZaltark Lockhart, TXPosts: 421Member

     /gets out old person cane and beats BadSpock for such good logic.

  • KhaerosKhaeros Monroe, NYPosts: 452Member

    Originally posted by BadSpock

    Honestly ya'll sound like parents in the 50's who were trying to force their kids to not buy and like Elvis records because Elvis was crap in their eyes.

     

    Rock and roll was the devil, though!  Just like this newfangled themepark MMOs.

     

    The devil, I say!

     

    ..is anyone listening?

  • RefMinorRefMinor MyTownPosts: 3,452Member
    Originally posted by BadSpock


    Originally posted by Zekiah


    Originally posted by Zlayer77

    So the question is would you SUB to a sandbox game for 1 month in Protest!

     

    No, this will do NOTHING.

    The solution is simple, the problem is getting the majority on board...

    STOP PAYING FOR CRAP TITLES. PERIOD!

    Have you guys stopped and thought that maybe the majority doesn't think the titles are crap and as such doesn't mind paying for them?

    Honestly ya'll sound like parents in the 50's who were trying to force their kids to not buy and like Elvis records because Elvis was crap in their eyes.

     

    I actually agree with those 50's parents, I think the make your own fun washboard skiffle bands were far better than that mass produced Elvis rubbish.
  • BadSpockBadSpock Somewhere, MIPosts: 7,974Member

    Originally posted by Khaeros

    Originally posted by BadSpock



    Honestly ya'll sound like parents in the 50's who were trying to force their kids to not buy and like Elvis records because Elvis was crap in their eyes.

    Rock and roll was the devil, though!  Just like this newfangled themepark MMOs.

    The devil, I say!

    ..is anyone listening?

    This has been happening since... I don't know.. the dawn of time?

    People grow up, things change, people don't like that things change and want what they used to have because it was better.

    Pissing into the wind...

  • musicmannmusicmann port allen, LAPosts: 1,107Member

    Originally posted by Axehilt

    Originally posted by musicmann

    No need for a protest. It's easy to see that the up cycle for 100% thempark style games is getting less and less. With games like Skyrim, Red Dead Redemption, Minecraft some other open console games, that are a huge success, i really feel the trend to make open world Sandbox style mmo's will start to make a upswing once again. I really feel the majority of mmo gamers are just burnt out on thempark, tell me where to go and what to do on rail mmo's. Take a look at TOR and the new crop of games coming out. I really believe that TOR will be the last of the true thempark mmo's. GW2, TSW, Archeage are all moving away from the norm and i also really believe that the game that goes the furthest away and gives the community the tools to really build within the online world will be the most successful.

    You say the online world furthest away from themepark will be successful, yet all your examples aren't online worlds.

    (Which is why they work.  Singleplayer sandboxes work.  MMO ones?  Not so much.)

    You also list Skyrim, which is almost a textbook definition of themepark.  Skyrim is a bunch of themepark rides, and you choose which ones you ride, but you don't create rides at all.  Actually that's also the case with RDR.  There wasn't much "sand" in either game, where users were actually creating their own experience (apart from mods, but the overwhelming majority don't make mods.)



    I see your point, but i guess what i was trying to convey with naming those console games is that, those games are open ended even though they are not mmorpg's. No you don't have the tools to create within the game world, but some like minecraft you do. I just feel like the days of the very linear and restricted themparks are gonna start to take a back seat to a game world that has sandbox tools for the community to build with once again. It's the reason why i mention those 3 that are coming out. The one that actually has the tools to let the communtiy build things within the online world and still has a robust character system will probably be the most successful. The trend is pointing to much into that direction for it not to be.

  • zevni78zevni78 grimsbyPosts: 1,133Member Uncommon

    I like this idea, though EVE may not be the right game, I can never find anything fun to do in it, how about WURM? Its the purest sandbox, and we could make out own village.

  • ZekiahZekiah Aurora, COPosts: 2,499Member

    Originally posted by BadSpock

    Originally posted by Zekiah


    Originally posted by Zlayer77

    So the question is would you SUB to a sandbox game for 1 month in Protest!

     

    No, this will do NOTHING.

    The solution is simple, the problem is getting the majority on board...

    STOP PAYING FOR CRAP TITLES. PERIOD!

    Have you guys stopped and thought that maybe the majority doesn't think the titles are crap and as such doesn't mind paying for them?

    Honestly ya'll sound like parents in the 50's who were trying to force their kids to not buy and like Elvis records because Elvis was crap in their eyes.

    Or perhaps they're just playing them because everything else sucks too.

    "Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky

  • TasarakTasarak redmond, WAPosts: 43Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Zlayer77

    Originally posted by Skooma2

    You are not going to  get as many people as you would like to sign  your petition.  The reason that most people play  themeparks rather than sanboxes is that it is really only a sandbox for people who have been playing since the beginning.  If  you are not there at the start, you are not entering a sandbox; you are entering a themepark world created by the players who were there before you.   It is no longer a sandbox for you because you will encounter a world created by others.

    The thing is that we are not totaly happy with the sanboxes ourself. Or we would be playing them and be happy right? But I think there is a huge market for a sanbox hybrid. And I think many of you that are tired of the Clones.. would like to have more tools to effec the game world.

    And that you cant effect a sanbox is just not true.. You dont have to be there at the start to make an Impact.

    And this is a genral protest against the Industry for making Clone games and not trying something new and Innovationg. And for not trusting us to create things inside the game worlds. It a protest against putting everything On rails and forcing us to just ride along.. and be happy.

    We need more sanbox feeling In MMOS or it will be like Wolfshead put it

    If anything, this has made me pause to reflect about the current state of virtual MMOs and the unfortunate suicidal direction they are heading in — a virtual bridge to nowhere.

    Those of us looking for a serious fantasy virtual world experience have few options. It’s like we are trapped a dark age where ancient knowledge has been lost and barbarism holds sway and I’m not the only one that believe this. I get letters from readers every week that lament the loss of what once was. Perhaps, while we still remember them, it’s time to draft a MMORPG manifesto and codify the noble principles and unswerving constants that many of us believe were hallmarks of the first golden age of this genre

    Originaly by Wholfshead.. creative changes by Zlayer77 to avoid fanboyin

     

     

     

    To the original poster &  other's dissastified  gamers. If  you are looking for  fresh, innovative ideas & a well thought out design philosophy on MMO's,  check out Pathfinder Online.  Veteran gamers or new people that are not happy with today's current  crop of MMO's, this game shows a clear new vision. This game has alot of promise.  After reading thier blogs,  I believe we have a group of people who actually care about the IP first  & wish to create a  feature rich virtual/hybrid world.  I applaud their efforts to break from the status quo. Grab a coffee & read up.

    https://goblinworks.com/blog/

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by ElderRat

    Originally posted by lizardbones

    Originally posted by ElderRat

    Originally posted by lizardbones

    Originally posted by ElderRat

    Originally posted by Rhavens

    Originally posted by Skooma2




    That's not how MMORPG work. They do not constantly evolve unless the developers change them. In Eve Online, the latest stories of someone worming their way into a corporation are the same as the stories from a year ago. Only the individuals and the scale of the events change. The chain of events is just a repeat of the events that happened a year ago. All MMORPG are like this. Unless you're there when the door opens, you're just going back over and doing something that somebody has already done.

    There are only two exceptions to this. One is to allow players to mod the game itself and the second is to have the players create their own rules that are socially enforced and everyone plays along. Ultima Online auction houses are an example of the second and so are the RPG/PvP servers in WoW where one side or the other 'owns' a section of land because they won a battle. It's by common player agreement that this works. The first method (mods) will not happen in an MMORPG.

    I don't agree with Skooma2's verbiage (sandbox games are sandbox games, regardless of how old they are), but new players are still just retreading content that's been done by older players whether they are playing a sandbox game or a theme park.


    guess we can just disagree then, but  which do you prefer? The retreaded sandbox where you at least have the illusion of freedom or the retreaded Themepark where you are buckled safely in for the ride?


    To me, it matters a lot more how well the game is written and whether or not the content is compelling. I won't buy or play a game because it's a theme park or because it's a sandbox. The game has to offer something I want to do, whether that's watch a story or build a house. That doesn't answer your question, but to me, it's irrelevant.


    It doesn't sound, to me - my opinion of your posts(could be wrong), that you like any games right now.  Well they are not going to change  without a call for change.  All that is required for evil to win is that good men do nothing.  Now I am not saying the current situation  in mmo's is evil... but the point remains - if you do not like it and you do nothing then you are part of the problem not the solution. either way hope you find a game you like.



    I updated my post - I don't think the distinction between sandbox and theme park is all that relevant (to me). The question asked of me was perfectly fine.

    There are games I like, and I'm playing them. I'm not really playing anything that could be classified as an MMORPG though. That vein, as they say, has been tapped. I'm sure another MMORPG will come along, but for now I'm OK with not playing any.

    I think a better 'protest' would be to purchase games you like (MMORPG or not) and then advertise someplace that you're playing them. If the games are not MMORPG, send a letter or an email to the publisher of said game that an MMORPG version might get your money.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

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