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WTF has happened to the genre? Rants of a veteran mmorpg'er

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  • LawlmonsterLawlmonster Dallas, TXPosts: 953Member Uncommon

    As someone who's lived long enough to see the multimedia entertainment industry completely go to shit, I can tell you that any individual hobby you may hold dear, whatever that may be, will instantly become less intellectual, less passionate, and less artistic the moment it becomes popular. You can blame what you like, but I point to the money and the grave stupidity in large collections of people. These two things always lead to corruption, and products created in such a manner as to maximize an audience and the profits therein.

    "This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)

  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    The pve in way more important than the pvp
    Following a progression path matched to the story is more important than freedom to roam and do your own thing
    E "sport" replaced warfare
    Crafting became pointless
    Single player became more important than group play
    Until "endgame" when being in a huge guild is super important
    Endgame became a glorified lobby corpg
    games became 2 games, grinding up then Sharp difference of end game
    having a reputation doesn't matter anymore just pug with random people often on another server

    That's what's wrong with most modern mmos
  • BadSpockBadSpock Somewhere, MIPosts: 7,974Member

    Ultima Online: Renaissance

    May 4, 2000 to March 7, 2001 (the release of Third Dawn garbage) was, without a doubt in my mind, the best MMORPG ever made and has yet to be matched.

     

  • PyrateLVPyrateLV Las Vegas, NVPosts: 1,096Member Common

    Originally posted by Superduper69

    Originally posted by BadSpock


    Originally posted by crysent

    Hello,

    8 years or so ago when Star Wars Galaxies was released it was a full loot, merciless game...

    Wait...

    When was SWG full loot and merciless?

    I don't remember that at all. SWG had completely consensual PvP and a light death penalty (some XP to grind off) and after coming to SWG from UO I thought SWG was total easy mode.

     

    Yeah i don't remember SWG being full loot either and i was there at release.

    Yeah. SWG was never Full Loot or Merciless.

    Unless he means the merciless amount of bugs the game assulted you with.

     

    Tried: EQ2 - AC - EU - HZ - TR - MxO - TTO - WURM - SL - VG:SoH - PotBS - PS - AoC - WAR - DDO - SWTOR
    Played: UO - EQ1 - AO - DAoC - NC - CoH/CoV - SWG - WoW - EVE - AA - LotRO - DFO - STO - FE - MO - RIFT
    Playing: Skyrim
    Following: The Repopulation
    I want a Virtual World, not just a Game.
    ITS TOO HARD! - Matt Firor (ZeniMax)

  • Cyberdeck7Cyberdeck7 Fingerlakes area, NYPosts: 239Member

    Originally posted by Praetalus

     I wager that for every one person on a forum bitching and complaining, there are about 100 who are just playing a game happily. There's nothing wrong with the genre... there's plenty of players and money being made. Things may be going south for you, but its also you changing and getting older. The genre is fine. You just may have to leave it.

    Coming to an MMO forum, saying Yay SWTOR! and telling a veteran player "the market moved on - get over it" is like going to an Audiophile forum, talking up your Sony X-Plodes and saying "your ears are too old, because the majority happily buy these"

    For every one person that can upgrade their own RAM there are 100 that can't. You don't ask them their opinions when buying a PC, and you certainly don't let them influence the direction of PC hardware technology. For any given topic, the masses are wrong - there are only a few people not talking completely out of their asses - on any subject. The masses or mainstream is a market for dumbed down, bubblegum, teeny-bopper bullshit. It's like that for music... it's like that for everything and it's been like that forever. It's what happens naturally when a group of business people get together and decide the direction of something previously spearheaded by enthusiasts.

    That's the other word for we forum goers - enthusiasts. We are MMO enthusiasts and many of us have been MMO enthusiasts before the MMO masses/mainstream were born. A lot of us have played all of the games. All of them. Some see a decline and the only way to see that decline is from a perspective or vantage point - an overview granted by experience. For example, you can't just go play EQ and know what EQ represents - or what its milestone represents. Besides the fact the game rules changed, back when EQ released there was nothing really like it to play. If you wanted to play an MMO, you had no other option - you worked through the sucky aspects... you had to. Some of it was hard, but making it through was that much more of an achievement and after accomplishing that achievement you could actually understand why the mechanics had to suck. In other words - the mechanics of boat-care are much more onerous for my sailboat than they are for a rowboat. They have to be, there are more features. And the rewards are better ("I'm C7, what are you drinking? Wanna go camp on the lake?") The rowboat is easier, yes, but that's because there are less features (no bed). Taking a girl out in a rowboat loses its charm when you've had a sailboat.

    Today, you've played WoW, and Wizard 101, and Rift and on and on. You can't have the same EQ experience - you can just say "this is stupid compared to..." and ADD yourself to the next game. Or worse yet, you can just buy your achievements in some cash shop and pretend you're playing a game. But you're not - games have something to beat and there are losers. Most of the MMOs today are merely activities. SWTOR is an activity - you can't lose; you can't even be bad at it. You might want an activity and that's fine, but don't make the mistake of coming to an enthusiast site claiming your X-Plodes are the bomb because more people buy them. The only thing that says is that you're one of the masses.

  • TasarakTasarak redmond, WAPosts: 43Member Uncommon

    To the original poster &  other's dissastified  gamers. If  you are looking for  fresh, innovative ideas & a well thought out design philosophy on MMO's,  check out Pathfinder Online.  Veteran gamers or new people that are not happy with today's current  crop of MMO's, this game shows a clear new vision. This game has alot of promise.  After reading thier blogs,  I believe we have a group of people who actually care about the IP first  & wish to create a  feature rich virtual world.  I applaud their efforts to break from the status quo. 

    https://goblinworks.com/blog/

     

  • BadSpockBadSpock Somewhere, MIPosts: 7,974Member

    Dedicated "hardcore" gamers can still create their own fun in modern MMO games, and there are a good number of sandbox titles available -

    however most of them would rather just bitch than do EXACTLY what they claim they used to do:

    MAKE YOUR OWN FUN instead of following developer created joy rides.

  • KhaerosKhaeros Monroe, NYPosts: 452Member

    Originally posted by BadSpock

    Dedicated "hardcore" gamers can still create their own fun in modern MMO games, and there are a good number of sandbox titles available -

    however most of them would rather just bitch than do EXACTLY what they claim they used to do:

    MAKE YOUR OWN FUN instead of following developer created joy rides.

     

    Yup.

     

    Check out my posts in some of those 'socialization blablabla' threads and you can see that communities still are alive.

     

    It just takes more effort now because players aren't forced to come to you and ask you for groups, so now you actually have to apply to a social guild and .. well, get social with people.

     

    The social nature of the game is no longer given to you on a platter.  You need to put in your own effort and get into the community.  Personally great for people like me, since I only receive guild apps from players who really, really want to be social in a game.  Not so great for the people who want to feel extra speshul because everyone relies on them.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member

    Originally posted by Rusque

    You're right, it seems you don't understand basic economics.  The demand is there, just not for the games you want to play. People vote with their wallets, so there you go.

    It always sucks to be on the side that gets crowded out, but things change and whether they're better or worse is a matter of perspective.

    This.

    If you are not on the "winning" side, there is no one to blame but that your "group" don't have enough buying power.

    Plus, MMOs are only entertainment. If you don't feel it is going your way, find some OTHER entertainment. Movies, books, comics, SP video games .. there is no shortage of good fun out there.

  • Cyberdeck7Cyberdeck7 Fingerlakes area, NYPosts: 239Member

    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Originally posted by Rusque



    You're right, it seems you don't understand basic economics.  The demand is there, just not for the games you want to play. People vote with their wallets, so there you go.

    It always sucks to be on the side that gets crowded out, but things change and whether they're better or worse is a matter of perspective.

    This.

    If you are not on the "winning" side, there is no one to blame but that your "group" don't have enough buying power.

    Plus, MMOs are only entertainment. If you don't feel it is going your way, find some OTHER entertainment. Movies, books, comics, SP video games .. there is no shortage of good fun out there.

    Quit and go home? Oh, no way.

    I have no doubt that we'll get to our honest to god real VR virtual worlds and the bus stop before that is Sandbox MMO St.. This is all about recruiting WoWers and speeding things up.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member

    Originally posted by Cyberdeck7

     

    Quit and go home? Oh, no way.

    I have no doubt that we'll get to our honest to god real VR virtual worlds and the bus stop before that is Sandbox MMO St.. This is all about recruiting WoWers and speeding things up.

    Good luck.

    How far are you on this endeavor? Is there a MILLION player virtual world yet? Personally, i think this is a case of wishful thinking. However, you obviously will disagree.

    So tell which is the AAA sandbox game with a million players, ok?

  • Cyberdeck7Cyberdeck7 Fingerlakes area, NYPosts: 239Member

    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Originally posted by Cyberdeck7


     

    Quit and go home? Oh, no way.

    I have no doubt that we'll get to our honest to god real VR virtual worlds and the bus stop before that is Sandbox MMO St.. This is all about recruiting WoWers and speeding things up.

    Good luck.

    How far are you on this endeavor? Is there a MILLION player virtual world yet? Personally, i think this is a case of wishful thinking. However, you obviously will disagree.

    So tell which is the AAA sandbox game with a million players, ok?

    whizzzzzzzzzzzz

  • phantomghostphantomghost Atlanta, GAPosts: 694Member Uncommon

    Yes WoW did this.

     

    They introduced MMO's to more young children... more than ever before.  These young kids were still stupid and wanted everything handed to them and then some.  And they got it.  Now they have aged and still want this... and if they don't they will cry, and if I may use one of their phrases, QQ more and say L2 Make games that give us what we want and by that I mean I want top end gear for doing a quest to pick up 5 flowers. 

    photo SIG_zpszteuyd0ejpg
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member

    Originally posted by phantomghost

    Yes WoW did this.

     

    They introduced MMO's to more young children... more than ever before.  These young kids were still stupid and wanted everything handed to them and then some.  And they got it.  Now they have aged and still want this... and if they don't they will cry, and if I may use one of their phrases, QQ more and say L2 Make games that give us what we want and by that I mean I want top end gear for doing a quest to pick up 5 flowers. 

    You are a case of "don't know how to use GOOGLE".

    If you have even the most rudimentary search skills of a elementary school kid, you will find out that "the average age of the WoW player is 28.3 (SD = 8.4). 84% of players are male. 16% are female. Female players are significantly older (M = 32.5, SD = 10.0) than male players (M = 28.0, SD = 8.4)."

    I guess facts are beyond some people.

     

  • phantomghostphantomghost Atlanta, GAPosts: 694Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Originally posted by phantomghost

    Yes WoW did this.

     

    They introduced MMO's to more young children... more than ever before.  These young kids were still stupid and wanted everything handed to them and then some.  And they got it.  Now they have aged and still want this... and if they don't they will cry, and if I may use one of their phrases, QQ more and say L2 Make games that give us what we want and by that I mean I want top end gear for doing a quest to pick up 5 flowers. 

    You are a case of "don't know how to use GOOGLE".

    If you have even the most rudimentary search skills of a elementary school kid, you will find out that "the average age of the WoW player is 28.3 (SD = 8.4). 84% of players are male. 16% are female. Female players are significantly older (M = 32.5, SD = 10.0) than male players (M = 28.0, SD = 8.4)."

    I guess facts are beyond some people.

     

    Ok?

    I guess you are a case of don't know how to read what I posted and you quoted.

     

    Because I stated they introduced MMO's to more young children.  Show me where it says there all children.

    photo SIG_zpszteuyd0ejpg
  • TruthXHurtsTruthXHurts El Do, KSPosts: 1,555Member

    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Originally posted by phantomghost

    Yes WoW did this.

     

    They introduced MMO's to more young children... more than ever before.  These young kids were still stupid and wanted everything handed to them and then some.  And they got it.  Now they have aged and still want this... and if they don't they will cry, and if I may use one of their phrases, QQ more and say L2 Make games that give us what we want and by that I mean I want top end gear for doing a quest to pick up 5 flowers. 

    You are a case of "don't know how to use GOOGLE".

    If you have even the most rudimentary search skills of a elementary school kid, you will find out that "the average age of the WoW player is 28.3 (SD = 8.4). 84% of players are male. 16% are female. Female players are significantly older (M = 32.5, SD = 10.0) than male players (M = 28.0, SD = 8.4)."

    I guess facts are beyond some people.

     

    I guess someone doesn't know what the word AVERAGE means. Many old people have started playing. Like 60-70. Now go hide your shame and come back when you don't sound so uneducated.

    "I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member

    Originally posted by phantomghost

    Originally posted by nariusseldon


    Originally posted by phantomghost

    Yes WoW did this.

     

    They introduced MMO's to more young children... more than ever before.  These young kids were still stupid and wanted everything handed to them and then some.  And they got it.  Now they have aged and still want this... and if they don't they will cry, and if I may use one of their phrases, QQ more and say L2 Make games that give us what we want and by that I mean I want top end gear for doing a quest to pick up 5 flowers. 

    You are a case of "don't know how to use GOOGLE".

    If you have even the most rudimentary search skills of a elementary school kid, you will find out that "the average age of the WoW player is 28.3 (SD = 8.4). 84% of players are male. 16% are female. Female players are significantly older (M = 32.5, SD = 10.0) than male players (M = 28.0, SD = 8.4)."

    I guess facts are beyond some people.

     

    Ok?

    I guess you are a case of don't know how to read what I posted and you quoted.

     

    Because I stated they introduced MMO's to more young children.  Show me where it says there all children.

    Now you admit most of the WOW players are adult?

    If so, .. what if there are a few more children?

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member

    Originally posted by TruthXHurts

     

    I guess someone doesn't know what the word AVERAGE means. Many old people have started playing. Like 60-70. Now go hide your shame and come back when you don't sound so uneducated.

    You have data on that? Just yanging stuff from your head does not make it true.

  • TruthXHurtsTruthXHurts El Do, KSPosts: 1,555Member

    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Originally posted by phantomghost


    Originally posted by nariusseldon


    Originally posted by phantomghost

    Yes WoW did this.

     

    They introduced MMO's to more young children... more than ever before.  These young kids were still stupid and wanted everything handed to them and then some.  And they got it.  Now they have aged and still want this... and if they don't they will cry, and if I may use one of their phrases, QQ more and say L2 Make games that give us what we want and by that I mean I want top end gear for doing a quest to pick up 5 flowers. 

    You are a case of "don't know how to use GOOGLE".

    If you have even the most rudimentary search skills of a elementary school kid, you will find out that "the average age of the WoW player is 28.3 (SD = 8.4). 84% of players are male. 16% are female. Female players are significantly older (M = 32.5, SD = 10.0) than male players (M = 28.0, SD = 8.4)."

    I guess facts are beyond some people.

     

    Ok?

    I guess you are a case of don't know how to read what I posted and you quoted.

     

    Because I stated they introduced MMO's to more young children.  Show me where it says there all children.

    Now you admit most of the WOW players are adult?

    If so, .. what if there are a few more children?

    Really an average out of 8 Million players and you think you know the demographic at all? You're just saying whatever you can to be right. There are 8 million players from age 8-80. Geez I wonder what the average age of everyone who watches the Fox Network.

     

    I know a 70 year old man that plays and I know an 8 year odl who plays. That is all I need to back it up.

    "I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"

  • BladestromBladestrom edinburghPosts: 4,943Member Uncommon

    Theres lots wrong now with WOW (not allways that way)  but without getting into the old old discussions I think what was obviously lost is the RPG element, the wonder of the virtual world, and balance between pve and pvp.  Not stat/performance balance that themeparks get trapped into, just simple balance in the gameplay elements and the world they resided in.

    Like many I have spent  far too many year's in many rpg's then mmorgs and am now on hold waiting for the next thing to come along, and for the first time in many years I am genuinely excited about a game, GW2 ofc.  Im not excited about the various elements of the game which look good, what im excited about most is the fact that the game embraces the RPG and virtual world, and has totally got it with regards to the poison chalice that is end-game raiding.  

    The game actually offers a world with no peer pressure to get to end-game, no peer pressure to keep up with gear, I really do have an open canvas laid out in front of me and the potential to finally experience that wonder I felt when i entered WOW at the begining of vanilla.  As another old aging vet with plenty of hardened battle wounds i thought I had had it with themeparks and thought Sandboxes/parks were the way forward, but my mind has been opened again.

    GW2 proves (or could prove shall we say) that themeparks just needed the update that the genre has desperately needed over the last few years, and Anet looks to have been given the creative freedom to do just that.  

    Edit:  to OP, Rift/SWTOR and all the others have aimed for the same game model as WOW a 2004 game, thats why they are stale, it really is as simple as that.  The proft that WOW has achieved has created such a huge expectation for developers that they have almost been stripped of all their creativity by investors and expectation, and you can understand  this - MASSIVE profit is powerful addiction and attraction to the greedy, especially within a profit driven society.

     

    rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar

    Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D

  • phantomghostphantomghost Atlanta, GAPosts: 694Member Uncommon

    Not to mention that statistic does not show any significance level at all.  The standard deviation is rather high that I would assume they took a sample of 5 people and came up with the mean and calculated the std...  Basically, this tells me nothing because your saying the average players are between 19-38 and everybody else would be out of control (below the UCL or below the LCL)

     

    Either way no information about the accuracy of the sample nor a significance using a confidence interval.

     

    Data seems more accurated than precise.

    photo SIG_zpszteuyd0ejpg
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member

    Originally posted by TruthXHurts

    Originally posted by nariusseldon


    Originally posted by phantomghost


    Originally posted by nariusseldon


    Originally posted by phantomghost

    Yes WoW did this.

     

    They introduced MMO's to more young children... more than ever before.  These young kids were still stupid and wanted everything handed to them and then some.  And they got it.  Now they have aged and still want this... and if they don't they will cry, and if I may use one of their phrases, QQ more and say L2 Make games that give us what we want and by that I mean I want top end gear for doing a quest to pick up 5 flowers. 

    You are a case of "don't know how to use GOOGLE".

    If you have even the most rudimentary search skills of a elementary school kid, you will find out that "the average age of the WoW player is 28.3 (SD = 8.4). 84% of players are male. 16% are female. Female players are significantly older (M = 32.5, SD = 10.0) than male players (M = 28.0, SD = 8.4)."

    I guess facts are beyond some people.

     

    Ok?

    I guess you are a case of don't know how to read what I posted and you quoted.

     

    Because I stated they introduced MMO's to more young children.  Show me where it says there all children.

    Now you admit most of the WOW players are adult?

    If so, .. what if there are a few more children?

    Really an average out of 8 Million players and you think you know the demographic at all? You're just saying whatever you can to be right. There are 8 million players from age 8-80. Geez I wonder what the average age of everyone who watches the Fox Network.

     

    I know a 70 year old man that plays and I know an 8 year odl who plays. That is all I need to back it up.

    LOL .. you don't know how to read a normal distribution. The data clearly states that the average is 28.3 and the standard deviation is 8.4. You know what a standard deviation is, right?

    If you assume normality, then 84.2% of the population is older than average-SD = 19.9. Thus, 84.2% of the wow players are ~20 and older. It is quite conclusive that a large MAJORITY of wow players are adults.

  • PainlezzPainlezz Laguna Hills, CAPosts: 616Member Uncommon

    The answer to this is VERY simple.  Unfortunately a huge majority (small number of people really) refuse to accept the answer.

    EQ1, Ultima Online... These "hard-core" "good" MMO's you guys keep talking about had 100k maybe 200k total people playing them.  That was GOOD back in the day.  Modern MMO's have to push MILLIONS of people otherwise they're a modern day failure.

    WoW has MILLIONS of people because MILLIONS of people enjoy that type of MMO.  SWTOR has like 1-2 million because, well, a few ppl enjoy it, and a few others like star wars =)

    Why have the "hard-core" mmo's you've seen lately been failures?  Because so few people actually enjoy that gameplay.  Very few people enjoy dying from lag/bugs/exploits and having to spend HOURS or DAYS recovering.  Very few people enjoy having some min/max nerd gank them and corpse camp them so they're now forced to log out of the game as they can't actually play it...

    DAOC was my first real MMO that I put much time into.  And that game REQUIRED dual monitors.  You needed one monitor with websites loaded that had maps and databases of items/quests/locations.  And another monitor for the actual game.  Modern MMO's have fixed this problem by giving you an actual useful in game map. 

    Hard-Core players would have dual monitors with a website open showing all the quest info.  "Noobs" would not, giving them a massive disadvantage and making the game not fun... So they quit.  Thus the low population numbers on these "hard-core" MMO's you talk about.  Modern MMO's give the players all the tools they need to enjoy the game. 

    Just becasue YOU like reading endless quest text trying to figure out where to go do a quest.  Does not mean the rest of us do.  I perfer action, killing, and questing where i'm DOING something... not reading.

    These are GRAPHICAL video games.  I want to enjoy the graphics not the text.  If they want me to enjoy a story... SHOW me the story with graphics.  Don't write it down in a damn UI window.

    Also, don't expect me to pretend and "role-play" and make up my own fun inside the game.  Modern Graphical Video games should supply everything we need to enjoy them.  Players should not have to pretend, imagine, or otherwise do anything but play the game that is provided.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member

    Originally posted by phantomghost

    Not to mention that statistic does not show any significance level at all.  The standard deviation is rather high that I would assume they took a sample of 5 people and came up with the mean and calculated the std...  Basically, this tells me nothing because your saying the average players are between 19-38 and everybody else would be out of control (below the UCL or below the LCL)

     

    Either way no information about the accuracy of the sample nor a significance using a confidence interval.

     

    Data seems more accurated than precise.

     

    I guess you don't know how to read a webpage. It is clearly stated that N=2439 for male and 404 for female. In fact, detailed distribution shows that for male, only 20.1% of the players are younger than 18.

  • BladestromBladestrom edinburghPosts: 4,943Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Painlezz

     

    Also, don't expect me to pretend and "role-play" and make up my own fun inside the game.  Modern Graphical Video games should supply everything we need to enjoy them.  Players should not have to pretend, imagine, or otherwise do anything but play the game that is provided.

    no man, you have forgotten that a game has to engage you, immerse you.  That means you do have to use your own brain.  Honestly, if you dont want to use your imagination, well all you end up with is a series of 2d visual images and some psychology tricks to get you hooked.  You think your brain reacts more pleasurably to images? - wrong,  go look at the studies on that one, you would be very surprised.

    Translate this to any other medium, lets say books.  Do you want a book that is just full of pictures, or a book that has pictures and and an absorbing story to provide context to those pictures?

     

    rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar

    Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D

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