Arms tree is clearly tied to swords, giving increased crit chance to them. Strength is tied to AXES. You are clearly limited in your choice of playstyle. You cannot effectively be an Axe-wielding warrior while picking traits from other stinking trees. This IS awful.
What gave you that impression?
Maybe the fact that the trait named "Axe Mastery" is in that tree? And that I cannot get it without first spending 5 trait points for "Reckless Dodge"? .. and if I want the second Axe trait "Weapon Specialization" I HAVE TO spend another 5 points on something called "Death from Above?"
Duh.
Why shouldn't I be able to spend these points on say.. "Determined Revival" and "Embrance of Pain" if I decide to go all Axy Axy?
Just because it has Axe mastery in it doesn't mean it is just for axes, there's a greatsword trait in there, another trait that encompases axes, maces and swords, two traits for spears (underwater weapon).... yea, not just an axe tree dude, you're blowing fish out of the water and you're looking silly doing it.
In case of the Elementalist, since this profession doesn't swap weapons anymore, tying element attunements to Trait Lines is not so good of an idea too. WE already see many people beeing misleaded by the same name between them and the influence each Line has on one and only attunement. only the Line of Arcane Power will influence them all.
Unless you have access to information we don't this is simply not true. Roughly half the traits in a magic line directly relate to skills of that line, the other half is universal. The same pattern persists through the trait lines of other professions, there are always specific ones and general ones.
People are confusing being forced into something with being given a choice. All of the 'restrictive forcing me to blah' stuff is applied to the traits where you choose one of six to nine traits. It is a choice you can use these to mix any trait lines with any others by choosing what to take. Just take some time and try to make some creative builds and you will see how unrestrictive it really is.
I don't know whether people think being better at something = stuck doing that thing and nothing else. It's just getting confusing now as to what the problem is exactly.
People are confusing being forced into something with being given a choice. All of the 'restrictive forcing me to blah' stuff is applied to the traits where you choose one of six to nine traits. It is a choice you can use these to mix any trait lines with any others by choosing what to take. Just take some time and try to make some creative builds and you will see how unrestrictive it really is.
I don't know whether people think being better at something = stuck doing that thing and nothing else. It's just getting confusing now as to what the problem is exactly.
Well I think it's just what we have been conditioned to. It does look like these attributes are going to be used by players to lock people into "tank" specs, "healing" specs, etc.
I like this because it really adds depth to the cusomization of your character. We haven't seen this type on customization in awhile now. This also makes you think alittle bit more too. I like it alot.
Choosing between 5% damage for swords and regeneration based on my endurance pool is the kind of choices I want to make in a character customization system.
If you're planning on spending most of your time in fire spec, then it makes sense to spec so as to improve your fire by selecting traits which synergize with that. The problem that I have is that this game is fluid. If you then have to go primary (not exclusively) earth spec for an encounter, you're missing a bunch of talents (not to mention toughness) which probably will affect how the very hard explorable mode encounter plays out.
You're making the same mistake as Pilnk. Traiting for 5% mor crit with an axe doesn't force me to use axes exclusively. You assume that if you don't trait into a specific line, the skills attached to it somehow become invalid. I just don't see how this is true in any way.
I'll trait mainly into fire magic with a focus on maximising burning. I still have to switch to water whenever the situation calls for snaring and healing. I still have to switch to air to apply conditions, I still switch to earth to play defensively. The other attunements have not become invalidated just because my fire skills do better burning.
The flexibility of a class lies in weapon switching (or attunements/kits) and utility skills, not in the trait system. Traits actually are flavour. They allow to customise how I want to do damage, they do not force me to do damage.
This topic makes me want to scream. You are not understanding me.
Yes, I know it doesn't make axes invalid. You can still use axes.
Yes, if I traited into Fire I would still use the other attunements as I see fit. Notice the part in orange.
The problem, as I illustrated in the part that you didn't quote, is that it's possible to have synergy with the skills needed for one encounter, and then have no synergy with the skills for another encounter.
If traits matter, then a person would be better off running back to town and respecing for a particular fight. Remember this is ultra hard explorable mode I'm talking about where 5% here and 5% there might be what makes the difference. If the fight is tuned around people with balanced specs, then it becomes easier if you have a spec tailored for it. I'm not talking about a totally min/maxed holy trinity sense, but I'm talking about people who skew their builds towards control having more control oriented traits (yet still capable of doing damage or switching to do something else if needed).
Honestly, I think the problem with this change is that I have so many objections to it on so many levels, I can't even express them all in one post.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it."-Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
There are a lot of unfounded fears of I'm going to be locked into a particular build, people are only going to look for particular builds to group with, or people are going to magically come up with tank and healer specs are pretty much running rampant here and on guru. Also it seems a lot of folks for some reason have an "I want it all" mentality as well. How bout waiting to see how it plays out in the betas or in release. Whining and raging doesn't work on A-Net. It may make them glance at a particular issue, but if they believe the raging and the whining is unwarranted, they won't change anything.
"For the Angel of Death spread his wings on the blast, And breathed in the face of the foe as he passed: And the eyes of the sleepers waxed deadly and chill, And their hearts but once heaved, and for ever grew still!" ~Lord George Gordon Byron
Considering 90% of the game is open world free form group content, you won't know or care what specs other people have.
And the other 10%, the dungeons and instanced PvP, in the instanced PvP you get freedom to switch as often and as much as you like and in the dungeons it looks like your skill as a player and UTILITY is going to account for about 3418761% of your ability to succeed or not...
Not the 5% bonus damage to a particular weapon set.
I do understand you, cali, I just disagree. I know how important 5% may be in some other games. I've played them for 12 years. They are not that important in this game. 5% flat damage is one hit saved out of 20. That does not make a fight in a game where combat dynamics are so reliant on actual player skill. Synergy is fun because it rewards smart play, but it hardly affects raw performance.
Traits matter for your style, not your performance.
Yeah, 5% damage to a specific weapon type is peanuts when you compare it to the increased flexibility of say....
+5% damage to Spirt Weapons or +5% damage to Burning targets in Guardian Traits.
I don't think people quite understand that GW2 is NOT going to really be a min/max "must top DPS charts" raid Grinder MMO.
You can't put Spirit Weapons and Burning in the same place as weapons in this situation.
Spirit Weapons are influenced by, at least, 2 Trait Lines. Burning is influenced by all of them, I think. You can only change them out of combat, but most Trait Lines influence other kinds of utility Skills and Conditions/Boons.
Some Guardian Weapons are only tied to one Trait Line. Why would you have the weapon skills you like the most in 2 different weapon sets if the Trait Lines clearly say that it's more efficient to change at least one of those weapons.
Example: I would like to use sword/shield and greathammer, but those can't be together if I want to have the best of each. I don't want the best of all weapons, just those that I consider my own playstyle = 3 weapons in 8 possible (outside water at least). Instead the Trait Lines are telling me the best and smallest change I have do is change my sword by mace or scepter. If I like more the sword/shield set and I want to have the Best of it, is better If I don't go with 2-hand-weapons. Or If want to go with the weapon sets I like the most, I can't use many points in the Virtue Line (That gives points to the Profession Attribute).
So, as you see, it's too restrictive. It's saying that the 2 weapon sets you want and the Trait Lines you want can't be the same in some situations, unless you want to be less effective than other players.
Example: I would like to use sword/shield and greathammer, but those can't be together if I want to have the best of each. I don't want the best of all weapons, just those that I consider my own playstyle = 3 weapons in 8 possible (outside water at least). Instead the Trait Lines are telling me the best and smallest change I have do is change my sword by mace or scepter. If I like more the sword/shield set and I want to have the Best of it, is better If I don't go with 2-hand-weapons. Or If want to go with the weapon sets I like the most, I can't use many points in the Virtue Line (That gives points to the Profession Attribute).
Can we agree on including links to the calc when giving examples like this? Makes it easier to follow your argument.
You can't put Spirit Weapons and Burning in the same place as weapons in this situation.
Spirit Weapons are influenced by, at least, 2 Trait Lines. Burning is influenced by all of them, I think. You can only change them out of combat, but most Trait Lines influence other kinds of utility Skills and Conditions/Boons.
Some Guardian Weapons are only tied to one Trait Line. Why would you have the weapon skills you like the most in 2 different weapon sets if the Trait Lines clearly say that it's more efficient to change at least one of those weapons.
Example: I would like to use sword/shield and greathammer, but those can't be together if I want to have the best of each. I don't want the best of all weapons, just those that I consider my own playstyle = 3 weapons in 8 possible (outside water at least). Instead the Trait Lines are telling me the best and smallest change I have do is change my sword by mace or scepter. If I like more the sword/shield set and I want to have the Best of it, is better If I don't go with 2-hand-weapons. Or If want to go with the weapon sets I like the most, I can't use many points in the Virtue Line (That gives points to the Profession Attribute).
So, as you see, it's too restrictive. It's saying that the 2 weapon sets you want and the Trait Lines you want can't be the same in some situations, unless you want to be less effective than other players.
So.. why don't you just max out the two trait lines that "focus" on sword/shield and greathammer?
And then put 10 points in a 3rd line for something else?
Prowess: Improves the damage multiplier on critical strikes.
Malice: Improves the damage done by conditions like burning, poison, confusion, and bleeding.
Expertise: Improves the duration of all conditions inflicted by the character.
Support
Concentration: Improves the duration of all boons applied by the character.
Compassion: Improves all outgoing heals that your character does, including self heals.
hmmm almost makes me think that we can never escape the healer-role dilemma , but at least we wont need tank .
yea and the main tree I planned to put points in.. for ranger Compassion is one of the attributes.. gogo healing ranger! I mean I don't mind doing it but its a bit weird.
you can't.. because there have been healers since D&D.
what i guess people still don't understand in that you will build your character to what you want to do. but those chocies will still wittle down a dmg dealer, a dmg taker, a healer, a support, or a control. The warrior is not just a tank, as he can throw his banner around and give buffs and crazy knockbacks, or have everyone move fast and charge with his warhorn, or he can grab his bow and rifle and throw out some ranged dmg.
THERE ARE STILL ROLES TO BE FILLED, and arena net has never said these would go away.
WHAT THEY DID SAY- classes are not locked into roles (warior in WoW can only tank or dps), The better the players skills' at dodging and thinking through a fight will help him more then just gear.
The Elementalist can switch to earth and help soak up some dmg for the warrior if he needs it, or an agile theif can dart in and out to confuse the AI, but if you are good enough you will never take damage (this is not counting some dmg from traps or just dmg you cant avoid)
5 elementalists can run in a dungeon, but dont you think they have someone supporting and dealing dmg and all of them are dodging and swaping skills and moving about?
The roles are still there, but if you use your mind and skills and you can overcome.
If it were my group, I'd ensure that there were a few AoE heals to go around and that are being spammed on cool down, plenty of CC and buffing from multiple sources (if it was really tough content, I'd also make sure that there was no redundant overlap), and that everyone was capable of stepping into the breach for at least a short span of taking the spotlight damage. The only role that I would accept as being valid is who will be the first person to receive the focus fire. You can call that person a tank, but to me, they are just the first warm body on the congo line. When they get burned out, they roll and get replaced by whoever is closer and not doing anything critical like rezzing.
If you're looking for a challenge, by all means, create designated roles. Hope you like fighting naked though.
Also remember guys that weapons are associated with specific skills that have specific purposes in this game.
So while it may seem like a great idea to just specialize in one weapon and nothing else...you may find yourself in a heap of trouble if you put all your points in greatsword and then discover that you really needed a ranged weapon. And it can even get more specific than that. Maybe you're still meleeing, fully specced in greatsword, but your group members are all dying because you can't disable or knock back your enemies like you could have with hammer.
So basically, speccing in a weapon isn't as cut and dry in GW2 as it is in other games. In most other games, a weapon is just a stylistic choice with maybe one ability associated with it, so there really isn't a reason to not just specialize in one. But in GW2, a weapon is your abilities.
You can't put Spirit Weapons and Burning in the same place as weapons in this situation.
Spirit Weapons are influenced by, at least, 2 Trait Lines. Burning is influenced by all of them, I think. You can only change them out of combat, but most Trait Lines influence other kinds of utility Skills and Conditions/Boons.
Some Guardian Weapons are only tied to one Trait Line. Why would you have the weapon skills you like the most in 2 different weapon sets if the Trait Lines clearly say that it's more efficient to change at least one of those weapons.
Example: I would like to use sword/shield and greathammer, but those can't be together if I want to have the best of each. I don't want the best of all weapons, just those that I consider my own playstyle = 3 weapons in 8 possible (outside water at least). Instead the Trait Lines are telling me the best and smallest change I have do is change my sword by mace or scepter. If I like more the sword/shield set and I want to have the Best of it, is better If I don't go with 2-hand-weapons. Or If want to go with the weapon sets I like the most, I can't use many points in the Virtue Line (That gives points to the Profession Attribute).
So, as you see, it's too restrictive. It's saying that the 2 weapon sets you want and the Trait Lines you want can't be the same in some situations, unless you want to be less effective than other players.
So.. why don't you just max out the two trait lines that "focus" on sword/shield and greathammer?
And then put 10 points in a 3rd line for something else?
My mistake was that I could have +10 points to use after 2 max Trait Lines in the Scepter/Shield + Greathammer, but I had to give up on an additional bonus to one of the weapons in the other combinations (The only weapon that has 2 bonus).Then I realized, I was forgetting the 2nd bonus on one of the weapons in the Scepter/Shield + Greathammer combination, it didn't had it in the beguinning.
Things really are more balanced than I thought! At least in the Guardian!
Comments
Just because it has Axe mastery in it doesn't mean it is just for axes, there's a greatsword trait in there, another trait that encompases axes, maces and swords, two traits for spears (underwater weapon).... yea, not just an axe tree dude, you're blowing fish out of the water and you're looking silly doing it.
This is not a game.
How accurate is the information in this website http://www.gw2tools.com/?
Does it actually reflect the current changes to the traits system?
It seems quite recent so I'd say yes.
This is not a game.
Unless you have access to information we don't this is simply not true. Roughly half the traits in a magic line directly relate to skills of that line, the other half is universal. The same pattern persists through the trait lines of other professions, there are always specific ones and general ones.
I don't know whether people think being better at something = stuck doing that thing and nothing else. It's just getting confusing now as to what the problem is exactly.
This is not a game.
Some small errors, and many traits still missing, but it's the best we have so far
Well I think it's just what we have been conditioned to. It does look like these attributes are going to be used by players to lock people into "tank" specs, "healing" specs, etc.
My theme song.
I like this because it really adds depth to the cusomization of your character. We haven't seen this type on customization in awhile now. This also makes you think alittle bit more too. I like it alot.
Grim Dawn, the next great action rpg!
http://www.grimdawn.com/
Choosing between 5% damage for swords and regeneration based on my endurance pool is the kind of choices I want to make in a character customization system.
This topic makes me want to scream. You are not understanding me.
Yes, I know it doesn't make axes invalid. You can still use axes.
Yes, if I traited into Fire I would still use the other attunements as I see fit. Notice the part in orange.
The problem, as I illustrated in the part that you didn't quote, is that it's possible to have synergy with the skills needed for one encounter, and then have no synergy with the skills for another encounter.
If traits matter, then a person would be better off running back to town and respecing for a particular fight. Remember this is ultra hard explorable mode I'm talking about where 5% here and 5% there might be what makes the difference. If the fight is tuned around people with balanced specs, then it becomes easier if you have a spec tailored for it. I'm not talking about a totally min/maxed holy trinity sense, but I'm talking about people who skew their builds towards control having more control oriented traits (yet still capable of doing damage or switching to do something else if needed).
Honestly, I think the problem with this change is that I have so many objections to it on so many levels, I can't even express them all in one post.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." -Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
There are a lot of unfounded fears of I'm going to be locked into a particular build, people are only going to look for particular builds to group with, or people are going to magically come up with tank and healer specs are pretty much running rampant here and on guru. Also it seems a lot of folks for some reason have an "I want it all" mentality as well. How bout waiting to see how it plays out in the betas or in release. Whining and raging doesn't work on A-Net. It may make them glance at a particular issue, but if they believe the raging and the whining is unwarranted, they won't change anything.
"For the Angel of Death spread his wings on the blast,
And breathed in the face of the foe as he passed:
And the eyes of the sleepers waxed deadly and chill,
And their hearts but once heaved, and for ever grew still!"
~Lord George Gordon Byron
Considering 90% of the game is open world free form group content, you won't know or care what specs other people have.
And the other 10%, the dungeons and instanced PvP, in the instanced PvP you get freedom to switch as often and as much as you like and in the dungeons it looks like your skill as a player and UTILITY is going to account for about 3418761% of your ability to succeed or not...
Not the 5% bonus damage to a particular weapon set.
I do understand you, cali, I just disagree. I know how important 5% may be in some other games. I've played them for 12 years. They are not that important in this game. 5% flat damage is one hit saved out of 20. That does not make a fight in a game where combat dynamics are so reliant on actual player skill. Synergy is fun because it rewards smart play, but it hardly affects raw performance.
Traits matter for your style, not your performance.
Just played around with the trait system a bit and.. I can just say, I have no fears whatsoever.
This is not a game.
You can't put Spirit Weapons and Burning in the same place as weapons in this situation.
Spirit Weapons are influenced by, at least, 2 Trait Lines. Burning is influenced by all of them, I think. You can only change them out of combat, but most Trait Lines influence other kinds of utility Skills and Conditions/Boons.
Some Guardian Weapons are only tied to one Trait Line. Why would you have the weapon skills you like the most in 2 different weapon sets if the Trait Lines clearly say that it's more efficient to change at least one of those weapons.
Example: I would like to use sword/shield and greathammer, but those can't be together if I want to have the best of each. I don't want the best of all weapons, just those that I consider my own playstyle = 3 weapons in 8 possible (outside water at least). Instead the Trait Lines are telling me the best and smallest change I have do is change my sword by mace or scepter. If I like more the sword/shield set and I want to have the Best of it, is better If I don't go with 2-hand-weapons. Or If want to go with the weapon sets I like the most, I can't use many points in the Virtue Line (That gives points to the Profession Attribute).
So, as you see, it's too restrictive. It's saying that the 2 weapon sets you want and the Trait Lines you want can't be the same in some situations, unless you want to be less effective than other players.
Can we agree on including links to the calc when giving examples like this? Makes it easier to follow your argument.
So.. why don't you just max out the two trait lines that "focus" on sword/shield and greathammer?
And then put 10 points in a 3rd line for something else?
Like maybe.. http://www.gw2tools.com/#t-g-ppfaa:dbc.cbZ.Xaa.aaa.aaa
Looks good to me.
If it were my group, I'd ensure that there were a few AoE heals to go around and that are being spammed on cool down, plenty of CC and buffing from multiple sources (if it was really tough content, I'd also make sure that there was no redundant overlap), and that everyone was capable of stepping into the breach for at least a short span of taking the spotlight damage. The only role that I would accept as being valid is who will be the first person to receive the focus fire. You can call that person a tank, but to me, they are just the first warm body on the congo line. When they get burned out, they roll and get replaced by whoever is closer and not doing anything critical like rezzing.
If you're looking for a challenge, by all means, create designated roles. Hope you like fighting naked though.
http://www.gw2tools.com/#t-g-ffffa:daa.caa.Xaa.Yaa.aaa
Maximised 2hand, sword+shield. 30 points to distribute into whatever you like. Why does it force you to pick a mace?
Bam!
http://www.gw2tools.com/#t-g-kNSfa:dba.cba.Xaa.Yaa.aaa
why do I have the uneasy feeling cali is preparing a beast of a post to smite me down ...
Also remember guys that weapons are associated with specific skills that have specific purposes in this game.
So while it may seem like a great idea to just specialize in one weapon and nothing else...you may find yourself in a heap of trouble if you put all your points in greatsword and then discover that you really needed a ranged weapon. And it can even get more specific than that. Maybe you're still meleeing, fully specced in greatsword, but your group members are all dying because you can't disable or knock back your enemies like you could have with hammer.
So basically, speccing in a weapon isn't as cut and dry in GW2 as it is in other games. In most other games, a weapon is just a stylistic choice with maybe one ability associated with it, so there really isn't a reason to not just specialize in one. But in GW2, a weapon is your abilities.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
Makes me want to watch the Skilled Warrior PvE video again...
The first part with sword+shield, If that is "tanking" and a "tanking spec" then yes, please give me moar Anet.
Ok, I will now say the I WAS WRONG!
I tested it again and again untill I saw my mistake!
I will give you examples where I can have all of the weapons in the 2 sets gainning something from Traits.
Scepter/Shield + Greathammer - 30 points left, I can max 2 Trait Lines.
Scepter/Shield + Mace/Shield - 30 points left, I can max 2 Trait Lines.
Sword/Shield + Greathammer - 30 points left, I can max 2 Trait Lines.
My mistake was that I could have +10 points to use after 2 max Trait Lines in the Scepter/Shield + Greathammer, but I had to give up on an additional bonus to one of the weapons in the other combinations (The only weapon that has 2 bonus).Then I realized, I was forgetting the 2nd bonus on one of the weapons in the Scepter/Shield + Greathammer combination, it didn't had it in the beguinning.
Things really are more balanced than I thought! At least in the Guardian!
Great, enjoy your Guardian!