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ArenaNet: "Play your way" Jon Peters on Traits and Attributes

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  • atticusbcatticusbc Posts: 1,069Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Naqaj

    Originally posted by Pilnkplonk

    I've just checked out the gwtools trait calculator and...

    THIS IS AWFUL!

    Really, ANet should reconsider  this - For example, Elementalist "trees" are all element based. And I thought the very POINT of being an elementalist is to have all 4 attunements available at all times. With this new "tree" system you can have only 2 attunements  viable at max level which seriously dumbs down the class.

    Warrior trait "TREES" (I feel like spitting whenever i write this word) are largely weapon-based. What happened with "Warrior being the master of all weapons??!?!?!?"

    This is just terrible. This is the worst. I thought that the days where I'd have to spend points to purchase talents I don't want just to get at the one that I do are firmly behind us. Wtf is this? Is this the right moment to go COPYING WOW ANet?!?!? Yes, I said it. I'm a GW2 fanboi and I said GW2 IS COPYING WOW.

    Don't do it ANet I beg you!

    What was wrong with the old system? It was perfect! I thought you'd go into giving even more freedom to players but instead you chose to pigeonhole us into some dumb TREES?!! Who the f... thought this is would be a good idea?!?!?!

    See my previous post. This is completely unfounded panic. Putting 30 points into the fire trait line does not make the attunement viable. It was viable before, just like the other 3. These are not talent trees. 

    There is exactly one trait that discourages you from switching out of fire attunement, and personally I wouldn't use it for exactly that reason. 

    seriously, listen to naqaj. this all would be hilarious if it didn't ressemble spooked cattle so much (spooked cattle are not hilarious, fyi). so first off: the warrior trees aren't weapon based at all. read the d**n article before you flip out. second off: you will have 70 points to put into the trees, where each tree has a max of 30 points. so  you have plenty of points to go around, even if it mattered. a quick google search will get you this page, and that clearly shows that the elemental traits let you do extra stuff in that element, and does not buff up that element until the other three are useless in comparison.

    and as a final note: heaven forfend that your character should be unique and specialized. that would be tragic wouldn't it?

    EDIT: have a video which reminds me of the new batch of doomsayers. seriously. i can't tell who is more annoying concerning GW2: the fanbois, or the doomsayers. neither party seems to want to use that few pounds of gray mush in their heads that they were endowed with.

  • AvatarBladeAvatarBlade BucurestiPosts: 770Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by atticusbc

    Originally posted by Naqaj


    Originally posted by Pilnkplonk

    I've just checked out the gwtools trait calculator and...

    THIS IS AWFUL!

    Really, ANet should reconsider  this - For example, Elementalist "trees" are all element based. And I thought the very POINT of being an elementalist is to have all 4 attunements available at all times. With this new "tree" system you can have only 2 attunements  viable at max level which seriously dumbs down the class.

    Warrior trait "TREES" (I feel like spitting whenever i write this word) are largely weapon-based. What happened with "Warrior being the master of all weapons??!?!?!?"

    This is just terrible. This is the worst. I thought that the days where I'd have to spend points to purchase talents I don't want just to get at the one that I do are firmly behind us. Wtf is this? Is this the right moment to go COPYING WOW ANet?!?!? Yes, I said it. I'm a GW2 fanboi and I said GW2 IS COPYING WOW.

    Don't do it ANet I beg you!

    What was wrong with the old system? It was perfect! I thought you'd go into giving even more freedom to players but instead you chose to pigeonhole us into some dumb TREES?!! Who the f... thought this is would be a good idea?!?!?!

    See my previous post. This is completely unfounded panic. Putting 30 points into the fire trait line does not make the attunement viable. It was viable before, just like the other 3. These are not talent trees. 

    There is exactly one trait that discourages you from switching out of fire attunement, and personally I wouldn't use it for exactly that reason. 

    seriously, listen to naqaj. this all would be hilarious if it didn't ressemble spooked cattle so much (spooked cattle are not hilarious, fyi). so first off: the warrior trees aren't weapon based at all. read the d**n article before you flip out. second off: you will have 70 points to put into the trees, where each tree has a max of 30 points. so  you have plenty of points to go around, even if it mattered. a quick google search will get you this page, and that clearly shows that the elemental traits let you do extra stuff in that element, and does not buff up that element until the other three are useless in comparison.

    and as a final note: heaven forfend that your character should be unique and specialized. that would be tragic wouldn't it?

    Not saying that being unique, which has a chance of not happening after stuff gets min/maxed, is a bad thing, but isn't one of the ideas behind this game being able to adapt to any situation and the traits might somewhat limit that? Maybe I got that adapting to any situation wrong, it's a genuine question. Because it will somewhat ipend that if what you said and I highlighted is right.

  • NaqajNaqaj Frankfurt am MainPosts: 1,673Member

    Originally posted by AvatarBlade

    Not saying that being unique, which has a chance of not happening after stuff gets min/maxed, is a bad thing, but isn't one of the ideas behind this game being able to adapt to any situation and the traits might somewhat limit that? Maybe I got that adapting to any situation wrong, it's a genuine question. Because it will somewhat ipend that if what you said and I highlighted is right.

    Exactly the thing people are misunderstanding. The traits modify specific mechanics that are tied to your abilities, but they do not cause a massive shift in their functionality or power. They don't make an ability valid. It is valid all by itself. They cause your ability to have a neat extra effect. You don't use the ability for that effect, you use it for what the ability already does.

    You don't have to trait into fire magic to make it your damage attunement. It already is your damage attunement. The traits just allow you to do more interesting things with it. And you'll still have to use the other attunements when the situation calls for it. An Elementalist that never leaves the fire attunement is a scrub, no matter what he traited in.

  • VhalnVhaln Chicago, ILPosts: 3,159Member

    Originally posted by Creslin321

    I'm cool with the attribute changes, but traits...scare me.

    Let me be clear, that nothing about their specific implementation scared me, on the contrary, I loved all the trait examples they gave.  But traits are essentially an analog to talent trees, and talent trees have had a singular purpose in every MMORPG they are in.  And that purpose is to pigeonhole you into one role.

     

    Maybe that's the only purpose they serve for some, but I think for others, they help with a feeling of attachment to the character, that you've developed and personalized it a certain way.  If you can swap it around on the fly, it ceases being different from anyone else's character.  It also makes leveling up more fun, if there are choices to be made along the way, and they cease being choices at all, if they can just be changed at any time.

     

    I'm guessing the ESports crowd will hate this, but the RPG crowd will like it?

    When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.

  • PilnkplonkPilnkplonk zagrebPosts: 1,532Member

    Originally posted by atticusbc

    Originally posted by Naqaj


    Originally posted by Pilnkplonk

    I've just checked out the gwtools trait calculator and...

    THIS IS AWFUL!

    Really, ANet should reconsider  this - For example, Elementalist "trees" are all element based. And I thought the very POINT of being an elementalist is to have all 4 attunements available at all times. With this new "tree" system you can have only 2 attunements  viable at max level which seriously dumbs down the class.

    Warrior trait "TREES" (I feel like spitting whenever i write this word) are largely weapon-based. What happened with "Warrior being the master of all weapons??!?!?!?"

    This is just terrible. This is the worst. I thought that the days where I'd have to spend points to purchase talents I don't want just to get at the one that I do are firmly behind us. Wtf is this? Is this the right moment to go COPYING WOW ANet?!?!? Yes, I said it. I'm a GW2 fanboi and I said GW2 IS COPYING WOW.

    Don't do it ANet I beg you!

    What was wrong with the old system? It was perfect! I thought you'd go into giving even more freedom to players but instead you chose to pigeonhole us into some dumb TREES?!! Who the f... thought this is would be a good idea?!?!?!

    See my previous post. This is completely unfounded panic. Putting 30 points into the fire trait line does not make the attunement viable. It was viable before, just like the other 3. These are not talent trees. 

    There is exactly one trait that discourages you from switching out of fire attunement, and personally I wouldn't use it for exactly that reason. 

    seriously, listen to naqaj. this all would be hilarious if it didn't ressemble spooked cattle so much (spooked cattle are not hilarious, fyi). so first off: the warrior trees aren't weapon based at all. read the d**n article before you flip out. second off: you will have 70 points to put into the trees, where each tree has a max of 30 points. so  you have plenty of points to go around, even if it mattered. a quick google search will get you this page, and that clearly shows that the elemental traits let you do extra stuff in that element, and does not buff up that element until the other three are useless in comparison.

    and as a final note: heaven forfend that your character should be unique and specialized. that would be tragic wouldn't it?

    EDIT: have a video which reminds me of the new batch of doomsayers. seriously. i can't tell who is more annoying concerning GW2: the fanbois, or the doomsayers. neither party seems to want to use that few pounds of gray mush in their heads that they were endowed with.

    The problem is that THEY ARE.

    http://www.gw2tools.com/

    Check it OUT!

    Arms tree is clearly tied to swords, giving increased crit chance to them. Strength is tied to AXES. You are clearly limited in your choice of playstyle. You cannot effectively be an Axe-wielding warrior while picking traits from other stinking trees. This IS awful.

    Check out the Elementalist trees which are even named after elemental attunements. This is all very clearly restricting player choice, no question about it. Unless you're playing one of the pre-designed builds ANet chose for you, you WILL BE GIMPED.

    For the life of me I don't understand why didn't they just give the players a set number of slots to fill with traits anyway they choose and be done with it. This way you could have an Axe warrior with increased bleed and crit chance for example. What if I want that increased "dameage on weakened foes" but don't care about  "increased health when rallying"? Well TOUGH LUCK buddy. You WILL HAVE TO SPEND TRAIT POINTS ON TRAITS THAT DON'T INTEREST YOU JUST IN ORDER TO GET AT THE TRAIT YOU REALLY WANT.

    I'll just let that sink in.

    This is pure garbage of a system.

    and as a "final note" - Yes, I want my character to be unique and specialized. I don't recall that  "unique" means "pigeonholed into one of the pre-determined categories".

  • ZeroxinZeroxin LondonPosts: 2,521Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by cali59

     

    I have no problem whatsoever with free and easy respec.  I believe that this game will have all kinds of different encounters where it will be advantageous to put together a strategy with your group before each attempt.  I've said on several occasions, it's like your group has a collection of skills, and it's up to you all to combine them as needed to beat an encounter.

    The problem I have with this system is if they don't want you to respec your traits in a dungeon, it affects what happens in those different encounters.  The example I used was a warrior entering a dungeon in a spec skewed towards control with say 30 points in Defense, 30 in Tactics and 10 in Discipline.  This gives them max bonuses to Toughness, Vitality, Compassion and Concentration, with minor bonuses to Prowess and Brawn.

    Suppose they reach a boss that can't be approached in melee and this warrior needs to take out a Rifle.  If they could respec, they might go for max bonuses to Power, Precision, Malice and Expertise (and still keep minor Prowess and Brawn).  If you can get 300 to TWO of these stats with 30 points and as that video shows, you can theoretically get 125 Power by equipping all five of your pieces of gear with Runes, then that seems like a pretty significant effect, not to mention the potential damage boosting from the actual traits themselves.

    So I don't see it like it doesn't make a difference what traits you have.  And if it didn't make a difference what traits you have (because you couldn't gimp yourself no matter what you did), then why have a complicated trait system at all?

    Window dressing.

    You only improve yourself in a certain direction, you don't particularly gimp anything else, the war can do damage even if he is not specialized in it. He may not do MASSIVE DAMAGE BY ATTACKING THE WEAK POINT but he can still do damage that can be seen as useful. Yes I'd definitely like the option to save my specs and even if it costs money to switch between them then so be it, I just don't like running back and forth between places to respec especially when I already know what I want and how I want it.

    This is not a game.

  • ProfRedProfRed Duluth, GAPosts: 3,511Member

    Originally posted by Pilnkplonk

    I've just checked out the gwtools trait calculator and...

    THIS IS AWFUL!

    Really, ANet should reconsider  this - For example, Elementalist "trees" are all element based. And I thought the very POINT of being an elementalist is to have all 4 attunements available at all times. With this new "tree" system you can have only 2 attunements  viable at max level which seriously dumbs down the class.

    Warrior trait "TREES" (I feel like spitting whenever i write this word) are largely weapon-based. What happened with "Warrior being the master of all weapons??!?!?!?"

    This is just terrible. This is the worst. I thought that the days where I'd have to spend points to purchase talents I don't want just to get at the one that I do are firmly behind us. Wtf is this? Is this the right moment to go COPYING WOW ANet?!?!? Yes, I said it. I'm a GW2 fanboi and I said GW2 IS COPYING WOW.

    Don't do it ANet I beg you!

    What was wrong with the old system? It was perfect! I thought you'd go into giving even more freedom to players but instead you chose to pigeonhole us into some dumb TREES?!! Who the f... thought this is would be a good idea?!?!?!

    Have you played Guild Wars 1?  They are not copying WoW.  There are simply multiple levels of complexity for characters.  Not every character will be the same with all maxed out everything.  You pick a specialization and you make your build and you use the skills that apply to it.  It is a lovely system and worked great in Guild Wars 1.

  • PilnkplonkPilnkplonk zagrebPosts: 1,532Member

    Originally posted by ProfRed

    Originally posted by Pilnkplonk

    I've just checked out the gwtools trait calculator and...

    THIS IS AWFUL!

    Really, ANet should reconsider  this - For example, Elementalist "trees" are all element based. And I thought the very POINT of being an elementalist is to have all 4 attunements available at all times. With this new "tree" system you can have only 2 attunements  viable at max level which seriously dumbs down the class.

    Warrior trait "TREES" (I feel like spitting whenever i write this word) are largely weapon-based. What happened with "Warrior being the master of all weapons??!?!?!?"

    This is just terrible. This is the worst. I thought that the days where I'd have to spend points to purchase talents I don't want just to get at the one that I do are firmly behind us. Wtf is this? Is this the right moment to go COPYING WOW ANet?!?!? Yes, I said it. I'm a GW2 fanboi and I said GW2 IS COPYING WOW.

    Don't do it ANet I beg you!

    What was wrong with the old system? It was perfect! I thought you'd go into giving even more freedom to players but instead you chose to pigeonhole us into some dumb TREES?!! Who the f... thought this is would be a good idea?!?!?!

    Have you played Guild Wars 1?  They are not copying WoW.  There are simply multiple levels of complexity for characters.  Not every character will be the same with all maxed out everything.  You pick a specialization and you make your build and you use the skills that apply to it.  It is a lovely system and worked great in Guild Wars 1.

    Yes, it was a lovely simple system and I don't understand why they didn't apply it to traits.

    I don't recall that in GW1 you had to pick skills you didn't want so you can place skills you DO want on your skill bar.

    As I understood it, GW2's trait system was supposed to work just like GW1's skills. You have a set number of slots that you fill up with traits anyway you want. Why they decided to go for stinking trait trees is completely beyond me. It's just plain stupid and hugely disappointing.

  • ProfRedProfRed Duluth, GAPosts: 3,511Member

    Ah I understand your gripe now.  Would rather it not be tree'd like this as well.  Hard to judge until I get my hands on it, but hopefully it isn't so limiting as to create a few cookie cutter builds.  It seems like they are aiming at adding customize while cutting down on too many skills.  Will have to keep my eye on it.

  • ZeroxinZeroxin LondonPosts: 2,521Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Pilnkplonk

     

    The problem is that THEY ARE.

    http://www.gw2tools.com/

    Check it OUT!

    Arms tree is clearly tied to swords, giving increased crit chance to them. Strength is tied to AXES. You are clearly limited in your choice of playstyle. You cannot effectively be an Axe-wielding warrior while picking traits from other stinking trees. This IS awful.

    What gave you that impression?

    This is not a game.

  • cali59cali59 B, NYPosts: 1,634Member

    Originally posted by Naqaj

    Originally posted by cali59

    I have no problem whatsoever with free and easy respec.  I believe that this game will have all kinds of different encounters where it will be advantageous to put together a strategy with your group before each attempt.  I've said on several occasions, it's like your group has a collection of skills, and it's up to you all to combine them as needed to beat an encounter.

    The problem I have with this system is if they don't want you to respec your traits in a dungeon, it affects what happens in those different encounters.  The example I used was a warrior entering a dungeon in a spec skewed towards control with say 30 points in Defense, 30 in Tactics and 10 in Discipline.  This gives them max bonuses to Toughness, Vitality, Compassion and Concentration, with minor bonuses to Prowess and Brawn.

    Suppose they reach a boss that can't be approached in melee and this warrior needs to take out a Rifle.  If they could respec, they might go for max bonuses to Power, Precision, Malice and Expertise (and still keep minor Prowess and Brawn).  If you can get 300 to TWO of these stats with 30 points and as that video shows, you can theoretically get 125 Power by equipping all five of your pieces of gear with Runes, then that seems like a pretty significant effect, not to mention the potential damage boosting from the actual traits themselves.

    So I don't see it like it doesn't make a difference what traits you have.  And if it didn't make a difference what traits you have (because you couldn't gimp yourself no matter what you did), then why have a complicated trait system at all?

    I see this as a major misunderstanding of what the trait system is supposed to do. It is not a talent tree. You're not supposed to respecc on the spot for a specific scenario. You cannot trait into a specific role, and not traiting for a specific role will not make you invalid for it.

    There's this video that was posted a lot in the last days, of a Warrior who solo'd elite mobs without taking any damage at all. I love that video because it demonstrates so well why people need to let go of the idea of min-maxing for tank and healer roles. Could you even tell whether that Warrior was traited for offense or defense. Would it even matter?

    You can never be required to trait for healing because traiting for healing still doesn't make you a healer. If you keep dieing in a dungeon, improving your healing is just one way of many ways to try and solve that, and from what we know about combat, it's actually the least efficient option.

    Traits customize your character, allow you to emphasize specific aspects you like. I can trait my Elementalist to maximize the ability to cause burning. That doesn't make him a fire mage, and using nothing but fire attunement would be the wrong way to play. 

    I do not misunderstand this system at all.  I am not talking about traiting into a specific role like it's a holy trinity role.  I'm talking about the ability to have your traits compliment your skill choices.

    The video you're linking is of someone playing in the lowest zone, who isn't fighting against tough encounters at all.  I consider it a completely invalid example.  No, it doesn't matter at all what that warrior is doing in that example.  It probably will elsewhere.

    Which brings up another point.  If it doesn't matter which way you're traited, then why have the system at all?  Why would the game need a 70 point system with 5 trees if all it would do would give you a sense of customization which ultimately made no difference?

    If you're planning on spending most of your time in fire spec, then it makes sense to spec so as to improve your fire by selecting traits which synergize with that.  The problem that I have is that this game is fluid.  If you then have to go primary (not exclusively) earth spec for an encounter, you're missing a bunch of talents (not to mention toughness) which probably will affect how the very hard explorable mode encounter plays out.

     

    I simply don't get it.  I just don't get it.  Any class in the game you can completely change your loadout of skills.  You can go from a Necromancer with a staff and 4 minion skills and a lich elite that summons even more minions to some other guy with an axe who doesn't use any minions at all.  You can totally swap to a new set of armor with an entirely new set of runes to completely change your stats and bonuses.  Why then is traits the place where we're going for permanence, forcing you to select trees with attribute and minor trait bonuses (but you can still swap the majors) that are locked in unless you go to a trainer?

    The example I've been using is suppose you have a warrior in a hard dungeon and there's two bosses.  One who hits very hard, and there's one who 1-shots everyone in melee so you have to go ranged against him.  If a warrior is worried about the first boss, he takes points in Defense to combat the first one (+300 Toughness and Compassion), 3 defensive minor and 3 defensive major.  If then the group encounters the 2nd boss and he has to go with a Rifle, he's now missing whatever Strength or Arms attributes (+300 Power or Precision, Malice or Expertise) and the traits which would help.  At the same time 2 of his defensive minors are useless and the best he can hope for with his majors is to make them "not useless".

    And if the answer is that he should have gone into the dungeon with a balanced spec in the first place, then why allow people to choose to specialize?  It just hurts players who don't know better.  And if the answer is that people should be able to beat that boss no matter what they traited, then why have traits at all?

     

    "Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true – you know it, and they know it." -Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007

  • Lord.BachusLord.Bachus Den HelderPosts: 9,065Member Uncommon

    I just love these changes...

     

     

    They tried a lot of things, but now based on their own playing experience, and input from early testers, they know what ideas worked well, and what ideas didn't deliver as expected.

     

    I think this might be a great step forward...

     

     

    For excample a blood specced Necromancer might actually be a pretty decent healer if played right... I know what i will play

    Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)

  • PilnkplonkPilnkplonk zagrebPosts: 1,532Member

    Originally posted by Zeroxin

    Originally posted by Pilnkplonk


     

    The problem is that THEY ARE.

    http://www.gw2tools.com/

    Check it OUT!

    Arms tree is clearly tied to swords, giving increased crit chance to them. Strength is tied to AXES. You are clearly limited in your choice of playstyle. You cannot effectively be an Axe-wielding warrior while picking traits from other stinking trees. This IS awful.

    What gave you that impression?

    Maybe the fact that the trait named "Axe Mastery" is in that tree? And that I cannot get it without first spending 5 trait points for "Reckless Dodge"? .. and if I want the second Axe trait "Weapon Specialization" I HAVE TO spend another 5 points on something called "Death from Above?"

    Duh.

    Why shouldn't I be able to spend these points on say.. "Determined Revival" and "Embrance of Pain" if I decide to go all Axy Axy?

  • ThupliThupli Spokane, WAPosts: 584Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Pilnkplonk

    I've just checked out the gwtools trait calculator and...

    THIS IS AWFUL!

    Really, ANet should reconsider  this - For example, Elementalist "trees" are all element based. And I thought the very POINT of being an elementalist is to have all 4 attunements available at all times. With this new "tree" system you can have only 2 attunements  viable at max level which seriously dumbs down the class.

    Warrior trait "TREES" (I feel like spitting whenever i write this word) are largely weapon-based. What happened with "Warrior being the master of all weapons??!?!?!?"

    This is just terrible. This is the worst. I thought that the days where I'd have to spend points to purchase talents I don't want just to get at the one that I do are firmly behind us. Wtf is this? Is this the right moment to go COPYING WOW ANet?!?!? Yes, I said it. I'm a GW2 fanboi and I said GW2 IS COPYING WOW.

    Don't do it ANet I beg you!

    What was wrong with the old system? It was perfect! I thought you'd go into giving even more freedom to players but instead you chose to pigeonhole us into some dumb TREES?!! Who the f... thought this is would be a good idea?!?!?!

     They aren't weapon based at all.  Where are you getting that from, b/c frankly it's flat out wrong.  Not only that but you ignore the differents between traits and skills.  They are 2 totally different things. 

     

    Stop.  Breath.  Relax.

  • PilnkplonkPilnkplonk zagrebPosts: 1,532Member

    Originally posted by Thupli

    Originally posted by Pilnkplonk

    I've just checked out the gwtools trait calculator and...

    THIS IS AWFUL!

    Really, ANet should reconsider  this - For example, Elementalist "trees" are all element based. And I thought the very POINT of being an elementalist is to have all 4 attunements available at all times. With this new "tree" system you can have only 2 attunements  viable at max level which seriously dumbs down the class.

    Warrior trait "TREES" (I feel like spitting whenever i write this word) are largely weapon-based. What happened with "Warrior being the master of all weapons??!?!?!?"

    This is just terrible. This is the worst. I thought that the days where I'd have to spend points to purchase talents I don't want just to get at the one that I do are firmly behind us. Wtf is this? Is this the right moment to go COPYING WOW ANet?!?!? Yes, I said it. I'm a GW2 fanboi and I said GW2 IS COPYING WOW.

    Don't do it ANet I beg you!

    What was wrong with the old system? It was perfect! I thought you'd go into giving even more freedom to players but instead you chose to pigeonhole us into some dumb TREES?!! Who the f... thought this is would be a good idea?!?!?!

     They aren't weapon based at all.  Where are you getting that from, b/c frankly it's flat out wrong.  Not only that but you ignore the differents between traits and skills.  They are 2 totally different things. 

     

    Stop.  Breath.  Relax.

    Lol, they ARE weapon based.

    http://www.gw2tools.com/

    And read my post above.

  • NaqajNaqaj Frankfurt am MainPosts: 1,673Member

    Originally posted by cali59

    If you're planning on spending most of your time in fire spec, then it makes sense to spec so as to improve your fire by selecting traits which synergize with that.  The problem that I have is that this game is fluid.  If you then have to go primary (not exclusively) earth spec for an encounter, you're missing a bunch of talents (not to mention toughness) which probably will affect how the very hard explorable mode encounter plays out.

    You're making the same mistake as Pilnk. Traiting for 5% mor crit with an axe doesn't force me to use axes exclusively. You assume that if you don't trait into a specific line, the skills attached to it somehow become invalid. I just don't see how this is true in any way.

    I'll trait mainly into fire magic with a focus on maximising burning. I still have to switch to water whenever the situation calls for snaring and healing. I still have to switch to air to apply conditions, I still switch to earth to play defensively. The other attunements have not become invalidated just because my fire skills do better burning.

    The flexibility of a class lies in weapon switching (or attunements/kits) and utility skills, not in the trait system. Traits actually are flavour. They allow to customise how I want to do damage, they do not force me to do damage.

  • ThupliThupli Spokane, WAPosts: 584Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Pilnkplonk

    Originally posted by Zeroxin

    Originally posted by Pilnkplonk

     

    The problem is that THEY ARE.

    http://www.gw2tools.com/

    Check it OUT!

    Arms tree is clearly tied to swords, giving increased crit chance to them. Strength is tied to AXES. You are clearly limited in your choice of playstyle. You cannot effectively be an Axe-wielding warrior while picking traits from other stinking trees. This IS awful.

    What gave you that impression?

    Maybe the fact that the trait named "Axe Mastery" is in that tree? And that I cannot get it without first spending 5 trait points for "Reckless Dodge"? .. and if I want the second Axe trait "Weapon Specialization" I HAVE TO spend another 5 points on something called "Death from Above?"

    Duh.

    Why shouldn't I be able to spend these points on say.. "Determined Revival" and "Embrance of Pain" if I decide to go all Axy Axy?

     1. I dont think we are looking at the same link.  Go to it again and look one more time just to verify.

    2. Even if there are a few skills sprinkled in for certain weapon types, do you think that means that all builds will focus on weapon damage as opposed to utility or survivability?

    3. Again, skills.  You are forgetting about them with all of this trait chatter.

  • ThupliThupli Spokane, WAPosts: 584Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Pilnkplonk

    Originally posted by Thupli

    Originally posted by Pilnkplonk

    I've just checked out the gwtools trait calculator and...

    THIS IS AWFUL!

    Really, ANet should reconsider  this - For example, Elementalist "trees" are all element based. And I thought the very POINT of being an elementalist is to have all 4 attunements available at all times. With this new "tree" system you can have only 2 attunements  viable at max level which seriously dumbs down the class.

    Warrior trait "TREES" (I feel like spitting whenever i write this word) are largely weapon-based. What happened with "Warrior being the master of all weapons??!?!?!?"

    This is just terrible. This is the worst. I thought that the days where I'd have to spend points to purchase talents I don't want just to get at the one that I do are firmly behind us. Wtf is this? Is this the right moment to go COPYING WOW ANet?!?!? Yes, I said it. I'm a GW2 fanboi and I said GW2 IS COPYING WOW.

    Don't do it ANet I beg you!

    What was wrong with the old system? It was perfect! I thought you'd go into giving even more freedom to players but instead you chose to pigeonhole us into some dumb TREES?!! Who the f... thought this is would be a good idea?!?!?!

     They aren't weapon based at all.  Where are you getting that from, b/c frankly it's flat out wrong.  Not only that but you ignore the differents between traits and skills.  They are 2 totally different things. 

     

    Stop.  Breath.  Relax.

    Lol, they ARE weapon based.

    http://www.gw2tools.com/

    And read my post above.

     Chill out dude.  If you look at the calculator that you posted:

    1. There is an axe skill at 10 points.  BUT...

    2. There is a sword skill

    3. There is a spear and greatsword skill.

     

    Sheesh.  Look at your source before posting.

  • NaqajNaqaj Frankfurt am MainPosts: 1,673Member

    Originally posted by Pilnkplonk

    Lol, they ARE weapon based.

    http://www.gw2tools.com/

    And read my post above.

    Pay attention to how these weapon based traits are distributed. There's one for each weapon, and you can mix and match as many of them as you want, 10 points into a line are enough for that, and you have enough points to unlock at least 3 lines

  • PilnkplonkPilnkplonk zagrebPosts: 1,532Member

    Originally posted by Thupli

    Originally posted by Pilnkplonk


    Originally posted by Zeroxin


    Originally posted by Pilnkplonk


     

    The problem is that THEY ARE.

    http://www.gw2tools.com/

    Check it OUT!

    Arms tree is clearly tied to swords, giving increased crit chance to them. Strength is tied to AXES. You are clearly limited in your choice of playstyle. You cannot effectively be an Axe-wielding warrior while picking traits from other stinking trees. This IS awful.

    What gave you that impression?

    Maybe the fact that the trait named "Axe Mastery" is in that tree? And that I cannot get it without first spending 5 trait points for "Reckless Dodge"? .. and if I want the second Axe trait "Weapon Specialization" I HAVE TO spend another 5 points on something called "Death from Above?"

    Duh.

    Why shouldn't I be able to spend these points on say.. "Determined Revival" and "Embrance of Pain" if I decide to go all Axy Axy?

     1. I dont think we are looking at the same link.  Go to it again and look one more time just to verify.

    Yupp, that's the link. Everything i said holds true.

    2. Even if there are a few skills sprinkled in for certain weapon types, do you think that means that all builds will focus on weapon damage as opposed to utility or survivability?

    My point is quite obvious - the choice of your weapon specialization dictates what other traits you ARE FORCED to take. Instead of being free to set up trait sets freely, the way skill bar in GW1 worked so we can create TRULY UNIQUE characters, we have 5 arbitrary trait trees to choose from. I think this is unnecessary limiting of player choice. ANet's argument for limiting skill choices compared to GW1 was "Oh, you'll have asolute freedom with your traits - that's where true freedom of customization will be" and that's the line I've been defending GW2 from my GW1 friend's criticismy. Now I have to tell them.. "Oh well, you'll have talent ... pardon me "trait" trees. But it's nothing like WoW, you see! It's got FIVE trees instead of three!"

    3. Again, skills.  You are forgetting about them with all of this trait chatter.

    We're not talking about skills here at all. Whatever gave you the impression that we're talking about skills? I know perfectly well how skills work in GW2 but we're talking about the changes to the trait system AS IS the title of the thread hence the "trait chatter." If you're tired of "trait chatter" in a thread about traits and  want to talk about skills instead, feel free to set up a new thread with the word "skills" in the title.

     

  • BadSpockBadSpock Somewhere, MIPosts: 7,974Member

    Umm I think it makes sense you choose to focus on 1 or 2  weapon sets and the others are still available to you out in the wild if you equip those weapons, but with slightly reduced effectiveness.

    That's... logical?

    Or do you guys want everything to be 100% all the time so you never have to make choices?

     

    I mean, you can max out two trait lines (30 points each) and still go 1/3 of the way through a 3rd trait line.

    So even if they are tied specifically to weapon sets, that is 2 weapon sets you will be 100% in and 1 your are 33% in.

    I don't know how many adventurers would ever consider bringing more than 2-3 weapons to a fight anway...

     

    Making builds = making choices.

    GW1 says Hello!

  • ProfRedProfRed Duluth, GAPosts: 3,511Member

    Originally posted by Pilnkplonk

    Originally posted by Thupli


    Originally posted by Pilnkplonk


    Originally posted by Zeroxin


    Originally posted by Pilnkplonk


     

    The problem is that THEY ARE.

    http://www.gw2tools.com/

    Check it OUT!

    Arms tree is clearly tied to swords, giving increased crit chance to them. Strength is tied to AXES. You are clearly limited in your choice of playstyle. You cannot effectively be an Axe-wielding warrior while picking traits from other stinking trees. This IS awful.

    What gave you that impression?

    Maybe the fact that the trait named "Axe Mastery" is in that tree? And that I cannot get it without first spending 5 trait points for "Reckless Dodge"? .. and if I want the second Axe trait "Weapon Specialization" I HAVE TO spend another 5 points on something called "Death from Above?"

    Duh.

    Why shouldn't I be able to spend these points on say.. "Determined Revival" and "Embrance of Pain" if I decide to go all Axy Axy?

     1. I dont think we are looking at the same link.  Go to it again and look one more time just to verify.

    Yupp, that's the link. Everything i said holds true.

    2. Even if there are a few skills sprinkled in for certain weapon types, do you think that means that all builds will focus on weapon damage as opposed to utility or survivability?

    My point is quite obvious - the choice of your weapon specialization dictates what other traits you ARE FORCED to take.

    3. Again, skills.  You are forgetting about them with all of this trait chatter.

    We're not talking about skills here at all. Whatever gave you the impression that we're talking about skills? I know perfectly well how skills work in GW2 but we're talking about the changes to the trait system AS IS the title of the thread hence the "trait chatter." If you're tired of "trait chatter" in a thread about traits and  want to talk about skills instead, feel free to set up a new thread with the word "skills" in the title.

     

    I spent some time with the system.  It is not nearly as restrictive as you paint it to be.  If you want to take one of those trees there are plenty of options outside of axe.  Instead you can put points into 5% damage for multiple offhand weapons.  Each of these traits should be balanced and you ahve a choice of like 6-9 of them in any tree.  If you want to go with axes go for it, if not skip those single traits.  It is actually a quite open system.  I just made 9 unique builds for a Thief and I really want to try them all.  I never felt restricted to a theme, but felt like I could mold a theme quite easily.  I really enjoy the system and thanks for the tool link.

  • MorcotulconMorcotulcon LisbonPosts: 262Member Common

    Originally posted by Zeroxin

    Originally posted by Pilnkplonk


     

    The problem is that THEY ARE.

    http://www.gw2tools.com/

    Check it OUT!

    Arms tree is clearly tied to swords, giving increased crit chance to them. Strength is tied to AXES. You are clearly limited in your choice of playstyle. You cannot effectively be an Axe-wielding warrior while picking traits from other stinking trees. This IS awful.

    What gave you that impression?

    Well, in case of the Warrior Pilnkplonk is wrong. BUT I think he has a point in some of the other professions. At least in the Guardian Traits, you can clearly see that some of the weapons are influenced by only one of the Trait Lines. Shield is by the Valor Traits, Sword and Spear only by Radiance Traits.

    In case of the Elementalist, since this profession doesn't swap weapons anymore, tying element attunements to Trait Lines is not so good of an idea too. WE already see many people beeing misleaded by the same name between them and the influence each Line has on one and only attunement. only the Line of Arcane Power will influence them all.

    So, It's true that this system might make some players: 1- never want to change weapons because they like the Traits they have; or 2- never wanting to re-spec Trait Lines because they like the Weapons they have. Those are choices that are too restrictive.

    The best possible solution is giving different effects to all weapons when they are in different Trait Lines. The same thing to the Elementalist element attunements. I think they have to rethink, or add, more Major Traits in each Trait Line. But that's it. They have a good system IMHO.

  • ProfRedProfRed Duluth, GAPosts: 3,511Member

    People are confusing being forced into something with being given a choice.  All of the 'restrictive forcing me to blah' stuff is applied to the traits where you choose one of six to nine traits.  It is a choice you can use these to mix any trait lines with any others by choosing what to take.  Just take some time and try to make some creative builds and you will see how unrestrictive it really is. 

  • BadSpockBadSpock Somewhere, MIPosts: 7,974Member

    Yeah, 5% damage to a specific weapon type is peanuts when you compare it to the increased flexibility of say.... 

    +5% damage to Spirt Weapons or +5% damage to Burning targets in Guardian Traits.

     

    I don't think people quite understand that GW2 is NOT going to really be a min/max "must top DPS charts" raid Grinder MMO.

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