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What I miss most about MMO's... A Challenge

phantomghostphantomghost Atlanta, GAPosts: 694Member Uncommon

All the MMO's these days are just too easy.  They are all soloable.  Raids are tiny.  Raids are easy.  The game can really be easily understood by a 5 year old.  Of course, it amazes me how dificult is is for most people that play the games, and how terrible people are at following directions, even on the simplest of things such as... don't stand in the mob when it is AE'ing.  The games even went as far as making it just as simple as stepping away... and half the mobs even give a warning that they are going to do an AE.

It takes me back to one raid in EQ... Simon Says..

With how well (or terrible rather) these idiots play today, I just cannot imagine any guilds ever getting by this quest.  I know if any of these people I have seen on WoW, AoC, Rift and SWTOR that cannot follow simple instructions were in my guild at the time, they would have been removed from the guild after one error from something so simple..

 

I know you will more  than likely not read this, but if you are bored and want to see what a pretty challenging raid at the time looked like this is one.  I miss these days.  Even if you do not read, look at how long the strategy is for just 1 Boss... a short 15 minute fight or so.

 

So here is the raid... who thinks these WoW and their clone noobs could ever do something like this.

 

Room Emotes: Everybody in raid sees these at the same time. If you do not make it on time... 5k base Dmg.  (Figure at this point in time people have between 7-12k Hp Max... 12k being tanks and that was a very well geared tank)

The room begins to heat up dramatically. The north side looks safe.

The room begins to heat up dramatically. The center looks safe.

The room begins to heat up dramatically. The south side looks safe.

The room begins to heat up dramatically. The east side looks safe.

They are pretty self explanatory but I am sure it would be too dificult for many to understand as now nobody uses directions they use left right straight and down.. because they are too dumb.

Kyv Emotes: Individual Emotes 7,500 Dmg Each (Occur more frequently over time and per death)



From the corner of your eye, you notice a Kyv taking aim at your position. You should move.

(Move around... keep in mind you still have to do the raid itself and follow the room emotes)



From the corner of your eye, you notice a Kyv taking aim near your position. He appears to be leading the target, anticipating your next movement. You should stand still.

(Stand still... of course this sucks if you also have to move around and/or go to a specific area in the room)  I would guess most idiots nowadays would not figure that well this does 7,500 dmg, the room emote does 5,000... which 1 do you think is more important to dodge



From the corner of your eye, you notice a Kyv taking aim at your head. You should duck.

This one is not so bad because you could duck and move...

At the start the emotes were minimal by the end of the raid you could have 10-20 emotes in a matter of seconds if your going to wipe because people keep dying.  Probably about 5-10 if your doing well.

The Dragorn before you is developing an anti-magic aura.

Do not cast spells on the mob



You notice that the Dragorn before you is preparing to cast a devastating close-range spell.

Move out of melee range...(5k Dmg)





You notice that the Dragorn before you is preparing to cast a devastaing spell. Doing enough damage to him might interupt the process.

Obviously... full dps.





A haze of unnatural steam billows near your feet. You should find higher ground.

Run to center stage or higher ground all around the room.





The Dragorn before you is sprouting sharp spikes.

No melee dmg this is a Damage shield... major damage... Few hits on the mob and you will kill yourself.





The Weapon in your right hand begins to heat up dramatically. You should remove it.

Remove your primary weapon or take Dmg.





There was also an emote to remove your rings, but most people do not keep their rings on for this fight due to this.  But if you were to keep them on, obviously when you get message take them off.

 

And finally, while doing all of this you are killing 6 mobs that are spawned circular around the room.

Kill all 6 and you win.

 

 

 

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Comments

  • BlackbrrdBlackbrrd KongsbergPosts: 811Member

    Isn't this how raids/dungeons are made today? You don't get the information as emotes, but visible auras etc. It's like that in AoC and is going to be like that in TSW...

  • phantomghostphantomghost Atlanta, GAPosts: 694Member Uncommon

    Raids these days are simple small 8-24 man raids.

     

    Simple strategies such as... don't stand next to the mob when he casts lightning.

     

    And Kill..

     

    Or maybe 1 mob will have a shield ... only attack the 1 without the shield until they all die.

     

    Really the raids these days are made way too simple.  It amazes me when people say watch videos before the boss... so far I do not see anything dificult.  I can go into any of these boss fights knowing absolutely nothing.  But I can assume at common percentages such as 75% 50% 33% 25% 10% something will happen... or of not at a percentage an emote in large bold letters across my screen will warn me to get away.

     

    Also, another difference is these emotes came differently.  Some were to an individual and some where to the entire raid. 

    So basically, the whole raid you see people running all over the place.  And compared to raids you see now you might get what maybe 5-10 emotes max.  Also, fights are very short.

     

    Like I said you got 5-10 emotes every few seconds towards the end of this raid... probably see 200+ emotes for this entire raid.

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  • FrostWyrmFrostWyrm Tempe, AZPosts: 1,036Member

    Dont be ridiculous...beign able to read is SO 1990's. Thats why we have Vent today.

     

    Seriously, though, today's MMOs are made for non-gamers. The reason? Non-gamers run the gaming industry. They tell the developers what they will or wont pay to have made.

  • phantomghostphantomghost Atlanta, GAPosts: 694Member Uncommon

    Well, good luck having someone tell you a personal emote that only you saw in vent.  I think you missed the whole purpose of the post... it wasn't about reading it was about the fact that challenges have become so minimal... which lead to people becoming so unable to do simple tasks.

    But knowing the emote was not the dificult task, it was being able to do the task in the emote... or figure out which 1 to miss and which 1 to take the dmg.

     

    Sometimes, you might get the emote to:

    Duck

    Stand Still

    Move around

    Stand still

    Move to North

    all within seconds.. so obviosuly the most reasonable thing would be to run ducked to the north... you will miss 3 emotes.

    Also, you will need to let a healer know to heal you as your about to take 15,000 base dmg (less depending on defenses and resists)  within seconds of each other.  

     

    The challenge was having to think for yourself and decide quickly what you need to do to live longer while still doing the objectives. 

     

    Todays raids are very simple 1 object at a time maybe 2 if its a tougher raid.

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  • TorikTorik London, ONPosts: 2,343Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Blackbrrd

    Isn't this how raids/dungeons are made today? You don't get the information as emotes, but visible auras etc. It's like that in AoC and is going to be like that in TSW...

    Yeah.  I really do not se much difference between this and many WoW raids.

  • KhaerosKhaeros Monroe, NYPosts: 452Member

    Posting in a new and exciting thread #342386

     

    Encounters with only one to four abilities are usually reserved for 5 man content in both WoW and RIFT.  There is an exception, though - the first boss of almost every WoW raid has a lower ability count (even if the abilities sitll mean 'if you're in it, you die).  After that, though, it starts to get a little ridiculous.

     

    Patchwerk is a good example in Naxx.  Patchwerk had 3 abilities, but he was more of a gear check anyway.  For new raiders going up against Patchwerk, he was a brick wall for sure.  They didn't need to be tested with the dance of don't-stand-in-fire - these were raiders that haven't even optimized their rotations yet and still clicked.

     

    Heroic Deathwing sits at 28 abilities across two separate encounters.  Many of them are instant death mechanics if you can't handle the ability correctly.  The game won't give you a second chance if you happen to play stupid - it just kills you.  At this point, the player should have the experience of many raids under their belt, so there is no excuse for them to stand 5 yards within an exploding amalgamation.

     

    In EQ, it's cool though.  If you get hit by a boss ability because you're too stupid, you only take 1/4 - 1/2 of your health in damage!

     

    Zon'ozz packs 12 - second boss in DS.  Just like your example, it's a fight that if you're in the wrong place at the wrong time, you could get hurt bad.  Not only that, but if your entire group is not coordinated and can't dodge Psychic Drains while collapsing on Void Diffusions, you're dead.  No '5000 damage but you still have 10k'.  We're talking 180,000 to the raid.  That means you're done.  Pretty 'hardcore', right?

     

    To that end, I'm waiting for MMORPG.com players to start putting up their armories to show me how easy heroic DS is.  It seems like everyone who comes in saying 'WoW is easy!' doesn't really have any experience playing it at all.  Excuses like 'its boring!' or 'its for kiddies lol!!!!' have been the only thing that comes out of these threads, while I haven't collected a single armory proving that PVE or PVP is easy.

     

    WoW is some 'casual shit' if you disregard current-tier raids, sure, but EQ after Luclin?  Yeah, can't really say it's better.

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Sioux City, IAPosts: 3,828Member


    Originally posted by phantomghost
    So here is the raid... who thinks these WoW and their clone noobs could ever do something like this.
     
    Room Emotes: Everybody in raid sees these at the same time. If you do not make it on time... 5k base Dmg.  (Figure at this point in time people have between 7-12k Hp Max... 12k being tanks and that was a very well geared tank)
    The room begins to heat up dramatically. The north side looks safe.
    The room begins to heat up dramatically. The center looks safe.
    The room begins to heat up dramatically. The south side looks safe.
    The room begins to heat up dramatically. The east side looks safe.
    They are pretty self explanatory but I am sure it would be too dificult for many to understand as now nobody uses directions they use left right straight and down.. because they are too dumb.
    Kyv Emotes: Individual Emotes 7,500 Dmg Each (Occur more frequently over time and per death)From the corner of your eye, you notice a Kyv taking aim at your position. You should move.
    (Move around... keep in mind you still have to do the raid itself and follow the room emotes)From the corner of your eye, you notice a Kyv taking aim near your position. He appears to be leading the target, anticipating your next movement. You should stand still.
    (Stand still... of course this sucks if you also have to move around and/or go to a specific area in the room)  I would guess most idiots nowadays would not figure that well this does 7,500 dmg, the room emote does 5,000... which 1 do you think is more important to dodgeFrom the corner of your eye, you notice a Kyv taking aim at your head. You should duck.
    This one is not so bad because you could duck and move...
    At the start the emotes were minimal by the end of the raid you could have 10-20 emotes in a matter of seconds if your going to wipe because people keep dying.  Probably about 5-10 if your doing well.
    The Dragorn before you is developing an anti-magic aura.
    Do not cast spells on the mobYou notice that the Dragorn before you is preparing to cast a devastating close-range spell.
    Move out of melee range...(5k Dmg)
    You notice that the Dragorn before you is preparing to cast a devastaing spell. Doing enough damage to him might interupt the process.
    Obviously... full dps.
    A haze of unnatural steam billows near your feet. You should find higher ground.
    Run to center stage or higher ground all around the room.
    The Dragorn before you is sprouting sharp spikes.
    No melee dmg this is a Damage shield... major damage... Few hits on the mob and you will kill yourself.
    The Weapon in your right hand begins to heat up dramatically. You should remove it.
    Remove your primary weapon or take Dmg.
    There was also an emote to remove your rings, but most people do not keep their rings on for this fight due to this.  But if you were to keep them on, obviously when you get message take them off.
     
    And finally, while doing all of this you are killing 6 mobs that are spawned circular around the room.
    Kill all 6 and you win.

    I am curious... Why do you find these scenarios difficult? The game is telling you exactly what to do? How is this difficult? Is it the reading part? Does that make it difficult?

    These scenarios remind me of dancing/music games on the consoles. Follow the arrows and dots.

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member

    Come back when you have finished hard mode raid in WOW. Less than 1% of 1% of the players finished that.

    None of the thing you describe is harder than a WOW hard mode raid. You have no credibility unless you can finish one.

     

  • KhaerosKhaeros Monroe, NYPosts: 452Member

    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

     

     I am curious... Why do you find these scenarios difficult? The game is telling you exactly what to do? How is this difficult? Is it the reading part? Does that make it difficult?

     

    These scenarios remind me of dancing/music games on the consoles. Follow the arrows and dots.

     

    I was going to make this argument - it is pretty lulzy getting emotes for every single mechanic - but WoW adds this functionality through player-made addons that most high-end raiders use anyway.  I guess if you really wanted to make the argument, I guess you could say that WoW's a little more 'hardkore!1!1!' because it doesn't tell you some mechanics.

     

    Again, both games are shit, but the key is that if you think EQ after Luclin is any good, you're just playing yourself.

  • IronfungusIronfungus Florence, AZPosts: 519Member

    What I miss most about MMOs ... community.

  • ThemePorkThemePork Boston, MAPosts: 312Member

    Although I generally agree with the OP, the one thing I hate about raiding is you have to spend hours on youtube learning tactics by heart. Instead of discovering a boss ingame and learning to down him by trial and error, these days you're required to know everything about a boss before you even see him in the game - that's completely retarded imo.

    I wish they'd just dump the whole scripted approach to raiding and start working on boss AI where the tactics are way simpler but change every time you face a given boss - that way the game is testing your adaptive skills instead of your memory.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member

    Originally posted by Charas

    Although I generally agree with the OP, the one thing I hate about raiding is you have to spend hours on youtube learning tactics by heart. Instead of discovering a boss ingame and learning to down him by trial and error, these days you're required to know everything about a boss before you even see him in the game - that's completely retarded imo.

    I wish they'd just dump the whole scripted approach to raiding and start working on boss AI where the tactics are way simpler but change every time you face a given boss - that way the game is testing your adaptive skills instead of your memory.

    No. Scripting is more interesting. Too much randomness is hard to balance. People will just play again and again when an "easy" scenarior comes up.

    And don't blame the game. You *can* learn the fight by trial, you know. No one forces you to learn the fight via youtube. If you cannot find some like-minded players who like to learn the fight by doing, who is it to blame?

     

     

     

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Posts: 14,783Member Uncommon

    Challenge is the antithesis of progression.  If you want to make a game challenging, then you have to ditch progression, or at least go much lighter on it.  Too heavy of a dependence on level or gear means that something that would be challenging at one state of level/gear is pretty trivial at another.

    And if it's not heavily dependent on level and gear, then some people will complain that it's not an MMORPG, or any other sort of RPG.  I don't agree with them, but you should expect to see that sort of complaints.

    Having too many people in a raid is also anthethetical to making things challenging.  The more people there are, the less winning and losing depends on any particular person.  If a few good people can carry a raid, then for everyone but those few, there's no challenge whatsoever.  If one bad person can kill a raid, then it's a contest of getting a bunch of people who are all mildly competent, and it's not challenging for anyone but guild recruiters.  If it depends on the average level/gear/skill of players in the raid, then one person doesn't affect the average much, and success or failure really depends on getting into the right raid, and not what you do there.

  • phantomghostphantomghost Atlanta, GAPosts: 694Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by AlBQuirky





    I am curious... Why do you find these scenarios difficult? The game is telling you exactly what to do? How is this difficult? Is it the reading part? Does that make it difficult?

    These scenarios remind me of dancing/music games on the consoles. Follow the arrows and dots.

    Well as I stated it is not difficult to read or understant the emotes (assuming you had audio for it or it is put in a separate filter) the challenge was the fact that everybody in the group had to be on the same page, and work together as each death resulted in more emotes. 

    While the tasks are simple they are also contradicting as they occur more frequently.  You cannot stand still, run around, go to the center, and to the north all at the same time.  Because of that it required the raiders to quickly decide what to do or not to do.

     

    Also, during the fight you could run back to the place the emote happened.  Basically, if you were told to stand still you could try to run back to that exact spot the emote was stated.  But keep in mind the time from the emote and the attack is very minimal.

    Now, this was actually one of the only raids that speciifcally told you what you needed to do... but it was still more difficult because at any given point in time you could be doing numerous tasks all within a matter of seconds. 

    I agree if you look at it as you are told what to do, it would seem easy.  However, it is much different in practice because it is a completely different pace.  Towards the middle to end of the challenge you might be reading texts all spammed together similar to my original post.  The only difference is you have 10 seconds to sort through it all.

     

    I guess I would say the challenge is not only having to be quick to react for yourself but you are very dependent on the reactions of other people, which is something that seems to be fading away in current MMOs.

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  • phantomghostphantomghost Atlanta, GAPosts: 694Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Come back when you have finished hard mode raid in WOW. Less than 1% of 1% of the players finished that.

    None of the thing you describe is harder than a WOW hard mode raid. You have no credibility unless you can finish one.

     

    I never found anything in WoW as challenging.

     

    While I never did raid in WoW because I found the game to be incredibly boring.  My friends from EQ did continue on and raid in WoW.  And from what I was told by them, the challenge just is not there.  Now I have met people who thought the raids were difficult, maybe it is just a difference in raiding experience.

    I cannot say for HM wow as I never did them.  For me I look at the ease of the game as a whole as reason enough for me to not want to raid. 

     

    I honestly feel if I had how many ever people needed from my guild in EQ, we would be able to fly through anything WoW threw at us.

     

    Same thing with SWTOR, I found the game too easy.  Got into raiding, and it was just way too simple.  I quit very shortly after because I do not see the challenge there.

     

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  • xm522xm522 Miami, FLPosts: 114Member Uncommon

    have you tried EVE?

  • phantomghostphantomghost Atlanta, GAPosts: 694Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by xm522

    have you tried EVE?

    No but I have seen a lot of people suggesting it and I have thought about trying it while I wait for a decent game to come out.

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  • DredphyreDredphyre Los Angeles, CAPosts: 601Member

    Originally posted by phantomghost

    Originally posted by xm522

    have you tried EVE?

    No but I have seen a lot of people suggesting it and I have thought about trying it while I wait for a decent game to come out.

    EVE, like many MMOs, is as challenging as you want to make it.  

     

    LOTRO raids incorporated challenges like the one expemplified in the OP.  

     

    So many posters on MMORPG have this nostalgia for old games that blinds them to facets of newer games.  The funny thing is, these old games still exist and you can play them almost exactly as you remember them.  But people don't for some reason, probably because the romanticized nostalgia is better than the actual experience.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member

    Originally posted by phantomghost

    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Come back when you have finished hard mode raid in WOW. Less than 1% of 1% of the players finished that.

    None of the thing you describe is harder than a WOW hard mode raid. You have no credibility unless you can finish one.

     

    I never found anything in WoW as challenging.

     

    While I never did raid in WoW ....

     

    You have no credibility to say it is not challenging when you have not even tried, not to mention beat, hard mode raids in WOW.

    You can complain about other aspects (like you don't like it), but saying that it is not challenging is just a) disingenious on your part, and b) an OBVIOUSLY un-informed opinion.

     

  • There are games that are extremely hard and soloable.

     

    I agree that MMOs are not challenging or interesting enough.  However I don't think raids are a challenge in and of themselves.  Nor do I think soloing is easy in and of itself.

     

    In point of fact soloing was very challenging in EQ.  I would go so far as to say certain soloing feats people did with certain classes is more impressive than most of the supposedly challening group content of that same game.

     

    Unfortunately the soloability and lack of challenge trends have gone hand in hand and the extremely poor notion that more people = harder has been re-enforced in some people's minds.

  • AlastiAlasti Martinez, CAPosts: 280Member

    Its not a "challenge" so much that I want, but the fear of failure.  Like the OP said, games are too easy nowadays, however I don't think its the difficulty of the the game as much of the lack of consequences of failure.  In the modern MMO's when people fail at a task....nothing happens.  They just go "darn" and move on.  In the original MMOs, when you failed, a completely new quest was just created called "Find my corpse before it rots".  THAT is excitement and what games nowadays lack IMO.

     

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member

    Originally posted by Alasti

    Its not a "challenge" so much that I want, but the fear of failure.  Like the OP said, games are too easy nowadays, however I don't think its the difficulty of the the game as much of the lack of consequences of failure.  In the modern MMO's when people fail at a task....nothing happens.  They just go "darn" and move on.  In the original MMOs, when you failed, a completely new quest was just created called "Find my corpse before it rots".  THAT is excitement and what games nowadays lack IMO.

     

     

    In that case, you are out of luck. There are lots of challengs. Anyone who says WOW hard mode is not challenging is either a moron or lying.

    However, it is true that there is not a lot of consequences of failing. A wipe costs time, some gold, and that is about it.

    Now, we are talking about GAMES here so i don't see why i would want a big penalty. After all, my game time is precious, and the fun is to TRY the challenge. So i do want to get back into it fast.

    I know that you want to spend ages to get back your corpse. I just don't share that preference. I will vote with my dollars and i am sure you will vote with yours.

  • ThorsnesThorsnes PorsgrunnPosts: 461Member



    Originally posted by phantomghost
    At the start the emotes were minimal by the end of the raid you could have 10-20 emotes in a matter of seconds if your going to wipe because people keep dying.  Probably about 5-10 if your doing well.

    An extremely stable connection was probably a huge plus back then...

  • midmagicmidmagic Portland, ORPosts: 614Member

    Originally posted by phantomghost

    I honestly feel if I had how many ever people needed from my guild in EQ, we would be able to fly through anything WoW threw at us.

     

    Please define challenging.

    Were EQ's combat mechanics harder? I don't think so.

    Was EQ's progression harder? Most certainly, especially since rival guilds could block progression and failure was rather time consuming.

    I'd say that WoW is the more challenging as a game since the combat mechanics demand more from the players.

    Forever looking for employment. Life is rather dull without it.

  • phantomghostphantomghost Atlanta, GAPosts: 694Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by midmagic

    Originally posted by phantomghost



    I honestly feel if I had how many ever people needed from my guild in EQ, we would be able to fly through anything WoW threw at us.

     

    Please define challenging.

    Were EQ's combat mechanics harder? I don't think so.

    Was EQ's progression harder? Most certainly, especially since rival guilds could block progression and failure was rather time consuming.

    I'd say that WoW is the more challenging as a game since the combat mechanics demand more from the players.

    I will agree it is more tasks to do to play WoW.  But I do not believe it is at all more difficult.  I feel the games become easier and easier as all classes seem to be granted all abilities.  In EQ, a select few classes could heal, a select few could tank, a select few could buff, a select few could cc.  Go to WoW, and what class can not CC?

    WoW: Mobs lose agro, they do not really roam.

    EQ: Mobs do not lose agro, they do roam.

    I do not feel like having more abilities means it is more challenging, in fact in most cases you only use a certain few abilities anyway.  Just means you have more options, and your first option will be to go with the one that is more OP.

    Then my next argument would be, in WoW you easily get gear.  In Eq you had to earn your gear.  You didn't get an upgrade for picking 5 flowers up 25 feet away from the quest giver.  You could go nearly max level before even having half your armor that gave a stat bonus other than Armor class if you even had that.

    AoC you had to press arrow keys to do attacks... that did not make it more difficult... it was still very simple.

     

    My question to mr. hard mode WoW raider  is did you ever do high end raids in EQ... and I mean at the level it came out not 5 expansions later?  If not how can you compare a hard mode WoW raid to that?  I can at least say from people I was guilded with and RL friends I know who did both and found WoW to be much easier... similar to what I found with the simple gameplay and easiness of getting a top 5% arena team in 2v2 3v3 and 5v5. 

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