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  • MumboJumboMumboJumbo LondonMember Posts: 3,219 Uncommon

    Thanks for the comments on dawntide, good to hear how it's coming along.

  • Xix13Xix13 Tampa, FLMember Posts: 259

    Now I'm actually kind of amazed that folks don't remember or even know about UO and its skill point cap (which could be moderately raised via some in-game stuf -- man, I even forget what they were called, scroll-type thingies that you only got from special raids in Felucca...the only reason I ever stuck my head into that side).  Used to be that in the sandbox genre, you didn't get to do EVERYTHING on one char, but needed to specialize and work with others.  In pre-CU SWG, for example, your crafting and combat came from the same pool of skill points.  It was CU that forced you to be pure crafter or pure combat, but you still could only manage 2 crafting masters on a crafter toon.

    Horizons let you do all crafts on one char without impacting your combat, but you still could only have two active at a time.  Fallen Earth lets you do all crafts on one char, but that char's not going to be very competitive in PvP (OK, don't get on me for the 2-3 players who COULD do it...they are VERY good PvPers).  AO, similarly, makes you specialize, and crafting comes from the general pool.  Heck, even WoW doesn't let you "do it all" on one char as far as crafting goes.  Only Ashen Empires has absolutely no skill point limits, of the sandboxes I remember and have played.  (Never played Ryzom beyond a brief trial.  The toons were somehow too disturbing-looking for me to stay with them long.)

    EVE's a completely different sandbox animal.  Can't really put it into this discussion, even though it may be the biggest sandbox of the bunch.

    I think people have forgotten (or never known) how the sandboxes really worked in having you make choices all along the way as you built your char.  You actually needed other people and an economy that stayed reasonably reasonable since everybody needed something that they couldn't get themselves.  Of course, guilds/clans/whatever solved a lot of those issues since you'd try to cover all the crafting professions within the group.  That's how it worked in UO, SWG and most others.  And Dawntide tells you right up front that that's what's to be expected.

    It's been so long since we've had one of these kinds of MMOs that the current crop of maturing gamers just haven't experienced them.  I, for one, am looking forward to seeing how this one pans out.  It's a small indie group, which will mean long waits for updates, improvements, fixes, etc., but it also means we might get to see something different from exclamation points over NPCs and Kill 10 Rats.  Housing, cities, ships... this is great stuf for those of us old enough to remember them.

    -- Xix
    "I know what you're thinking: 'Why, oh WHY, didn't I take the BLUE pill?'"

  • tom229tom229 None, LAMember Posts: 8

    How did that troll hijack this? Not having a skill cap would be game breaking. You can't have people running around with GM in everything. If you can't realize that there's no hope for you.

    To answer OP: I'd check out the youtube videos. There's lots of them floating around. Looks pretty good to me. It's an attempt to bring back the era of old school (read: superior) MMOs. I havent played yet but wish them all the luck in the world. Can't wait until the servers are avail again.

  • ddz1ddz1 Houston, TXMember Posts: 14

    well in UO you could be all classes, if you had 30 red blue and green soulstones sitting on your roof  =P.

    i do agree with skillcap on toon, but only for non-crafting.

     

     

     

  • BiskopBiskop AvalonMember Posts: 709 Uncommon

    Originally posted by Xix13

    Now I'm actually kind of amazed that folks don't remember or even know about UO and its skill point cap (which could be moderately raised via some in-game stuf -- man, I even forget what they were called, scroll-type thingies that you only got from special raids in Felucca...the only reason I ever stuck my head into that side).  Used to be that in the sandbox genre, you didn't get to do EVERYTHING on one char, but needed to specialize and work with others.  In pre-CU SWG, for example, your crafting and combat came from the same pool of skill points.  It was CU that forced you to be pure crafter or pure combat, but you still could only manage 2 crafting masters on a crafter toon.
    Horizons let you do all crafts on one char without impacting your combat, but you still could only have two active at a time.  Fallen Earth lets you do all crafts on one char, but that char's not going to be very competitive in PvP (OK, don't get on me for the 2-3 players who COULD do it...they are VERY good PvPers).  AO, similarly, makes you specialize, and crafting comes from the general pool.  Heck, even WoW doesn't let you "do it all" on one char as far as crafting goes.  Only Ashen Empires has absolutely no skill point limits, of the sandboxes I remember and have played.  (Never played Ryzom beyond a brief trial.  The toons were somehow too disturbing-looking for me to stay with them long.)
    EVE's a completely different sandbox animal.  Can't really put it into this discussion, even though it may be the biggest sandbox of the bunch.
    I think people have forgotten (or never known) how the sandboxes really worked in having you make choices all along the way as you built your char.  You actually needed other people and an economy that stayed reasonably reasonable since everybody needed something that they couldn't get themselves.  Of course, guilds/clans/whatever solved a lot of those issues since you'd try to cover all the crafting professions within the group.  That's how it worked in UO, SWG and most others.  And Dawntide tells you right up front that that's what's to be expected.
    It's been so long since we've had one of these kinds of MMOs that the current crop of maturing gamers just haven't experienced them.  I, for one, am looking forward to seeing how this one pans out.  It's a small indie group, which will mean long waits for updates, improvements, fixes, etc., but it also means we might get to see something different from exclamation points over NPCs and Kill 10 Rats.  Housing, cities, ships... this is great stuf for those of us old enough to remember them.

    True.

    Some people seem to think  it's essential to be able to do everything yourself, but in such a world there is no need for community, economy, and interaction. If everyone are going to play self-sufficient soloers, why have an MMO in the first place?

  • KogruKogru SydneyMember Posts: 4

    Originally posted by Biskop


    Originally posted by Xix13


    Now I'm actually kind of amazed that folks don't remember or even know about UO and its skill point cap (which could be moderately raised via some in-game stuf -- man, I even forget what they were called, scroll-type thingies that you only got from special raids in Felucca...the only reason I ever stuck my head into that side).  Used to be that in the sandbox genre, you didn't get to do EVERYTHING on one char, but needed to specialize and work with others.  In pre-CU SWG, for example, your crafting and combat came from the same pool of skill points.  It was CU that forced you to be pure crafter or pure combat, but you still could only manage 2 crafting masters on a crafter toon.
    Horizons let you do all crafts on one char without impacting your combat, but you still could only have two active at a time.  Fallen Earth lets you do all crafts on one char, but that char's not going to be very competitive in PvP (OK, don't get on me for the 2-3 players who COULD do it...they are VERY good PvPers).  AO, similarly, makes you specialize, and crafting comes from the general pool.  Heck, even WoW doesn't let you "do it all" on one char as far as crafting goes.  Only Ashen Empires has absolutely no skill point limits, of the sandboxes I remember and have played.  (Never played Ryzom beyond a brief trial.  The toons were somehow too disturbing-looking for me to stay with them long.)
    EVE's a completely different sandbox animal.  Can't really put it into this discussion, even though it may be the biggest sandbox of the bunch.
    I think people have forgotten (or never known) how the sandboxes really worked in having you make choices all along the way as you built your char.  You actually needed other people and an economy that stayed reasonably reasonable since everybody needed something that they couldn't get themselves.  Of course, guilds/clans/whatever solved a lot of those issues since you'd try to cover all the crafting professions within the group.  That's how it worked in UO, SWG and most others.  And Dawntide tells you right up front that that's what's to be expected.
    It's been so long since we've had one of these kinds of MMOs that the current crop of maturing gamers just haven't experienced them.  I, for one, am looking forward to seeing how this one pans out.  It's a small indie group, which will mean long waits for updates, improvements, fixes, etc., but it also means we might get to see something different from exclamation points over NPCs and Kill 10 Rats.  Housing, cities, ships... this is great stuf for those of us old enough to remember them.

    True.

    Some people seem to think  it's essential to be able to do everything yourself, but in such a world there is no need for community, economy, and interaction. If everyone are going to play self-sufficient soloers, why have an MMO in the first place?

     

    This is why Darkfall is such a horrible game. There is no skillcap, everyone can do and be anything. So they talk about it being a classless game, but in reality there is 1 class build and everyone is expected (and basically has to for pvp) to grind certain skills. It makes the game incredibly boring when everything is the exact same character. There is also no economy.

    Skillcaps are definitely the way to do it.

     

  • cylon8cylon8 lodi, NJMember Posts: 347 Uncommon

    it was a nice break from poorly done indie sandbox mmos. that being said i don't see it coming back from it's original open beta. If it does I have a feeling it won't be sandboxy anymore. I liked exploring the vast regions, the player built cities and ships. it was a helpful community. eh

    so say we all

  • MurdusMurdus bayville, NYMember Posts: 698

    Originally posted by Kogru
     
    This is why Darkfall is such a horrible game. There is no skillcap, everyone can do and be anything. So they talk about it being a classless game, but in reality there is 1 class build and everyone is expected (and basically has to for pvp) to grind certain skills. It makes the game incredibly boring when everything is the exact same character. There is also no economy.
    Skillcaps are definitely the way to do it.
     

    I agree with you that it's silly for Darkfall to allow one character to max out everything they can. This makes Darkfall seem more like an arcade style MMO. I, personally, wouldn't call it horrible because I enjoy playing it from time to time. Hopefully 2.0, the next installment supposedly coming this year, actually fixes this problem of the "one build" system DF has. They're changing the game a lot and I expect that, with recent blog posts, it will actually come true. 

    The combat in Dawntide from what I saw looks very stale. I don't like targetting and auto attack anymore because it severs immersion tenfold for me. The rest of the game looks very interesting and I would download it if its combat system resembled something to Oblivion/Skyrim/Darkfall/Mount&Blade.

    The character movement in the game also doesn't seem responsive enough for my liking and I'd like it if you could jump higher / improve the jump skill (like DDO). I haven't played it, but if I don't feel firmly on my feet in a game, I can't play it.

  • BiskopBiskop AvalonMember Posts: 709 Uncommon

    Originally posted by Murdus

    I agree with you that it's silly for Darkfall to allow one character to max out everything they can. This makes Darkfall seem more like an arcade style MMO. I, personally, wouldn't call it horrible because I enjoy playing it from time to time. Hopefully 2.0, the next installment supposedly coming this year, actually fixes this problem of the "one build" system DF has. They're changing the game a lot and I expect that, with recent blog posts, it will actually come true. 
    The combat in Dawntide from what I saw looks very stale. I don't like targetting and auto attack anymore because it severs immersion tenfold for me. The rest of the game looks very interesting and I would download it if its combat system resembled something to Oblivion/Skyrim/Darkfall/Mount&Blade.
    The character movement in the game also doesn't seem responsive enough for my liking and I'd like it if you could jump higher / improve the jump skill (like DDO). I haven't played it, but if I don't feel firmly on my feet in a game, I can't play it.

    Yeah, DT's main issue was the combat. It was just horribly made and totally uninteresting. Bugs and instabilities can be fixed, but a boring combat system would be hard to change once the game goes live.

    DT will probably never go live anyway, but you get my point...

     

  • Crunchy221Crunchy221 Trollsberg, ILMember Posts: 489

    Still think its a very closed minded view that a sandbox has to limit what a single character can do.  Just because Darkfall did it, and let it get carried away..doesnt mean you need a hard cap for the game to be good.  Dont really care what other games did it.  Think its about time a sandbox, or any game for that matter, tries to do something unique. 

    Even darkfall learned and is going to use gear "locks" on skills as well as opposing magic schools.  Simply to prevent what people didnt like...everyone being everything all in the same encounter.  I think this is a terrible idea to allow that. I dont think anyone is suggesting that every character be allowed to be the best healer/tank/mage/archer in one encounter.

    My issue is with limitations that require me to reroll another character to skirt.  This was one of the reasons i liked DF so much.  I didnt feel like being melee that day so i changed my hotbar got a robe and went out and used magic, which made my character stronger overall (it was a wasted effort)...next day i decided to bang rocks while watching tv and mine, making my character stronger in all aspects (related to the stat gain at least)...then i decided after than to go melee again.

    I prefer doing what i feel like, rather than logging out and logging on an alt...or worse fearing that if i do something too much it will ruin my character. 

    Personally i just think people are afraid of something diffrent, since i cant think of any mmorpg that had no skill cap aside from darkfall...and people hate that game (especially here) more for its unforgiving pvp and no safe zones...more than the fact that you werent restricted.  I feel people hang on restrictions to make it easier to survive in pvp.

    Im not saying change DT...the combat is too terrible for my liking and the community in game was very...un sandbox like...people who play a lot of sandboxes, especially older ones will know what i mean.  Basically any question asked is responded to "do back to wow you dumb kid".  Needless to say my first experience with DT mechanics and gameplay.... and its community was less than i expected.  Wish it luck and all.  Its got a lot of hurdles to jump.

    Just wish they thought outside the box a bit mechanically and thought of a uinique way to limit characters without hard skill caps.  Would have more than made up for the combat and what i saw of the community being very themeparkish.

  • BiskopBiskop AvalonMember Posts: 709 Uncommon

    Originally posted by Crunchy221

    Still think its a very closed minded view that a sandbox has to limit what a single character can do.  Just because Darkfall did it, and let it get carried away..doesnt mean you need a hard cap for the game to be good.  Dont really care what other games did it.  Think its about time a sandbox, or any game for that matter, tries to do something unique. 

    Isn't it better to do something that works and is fun to play?

    Personally I have nothing against a system where a player can, in theory, learn all skills in the game (I think that should take an extreme amount of time though). The important thing is that no one should be able to USE all of his skills at the same time. You shouldn't need to fight some guy who comes at you in melee gear, and then suddenly insta-switch to mage gear mid-fight, then switches to ranger gear, stealths and runs away when he's losing. You shouldn't have to deal with a situation where you can't get a jump on some miners or woodcutters because they might have a full set of PvP gear ready.

    Switching between skill sets should require retreating to a base of some kind (NPC bank, space station, player city, whatever) and committing some time in the process. Preferably, maxing all skills so that you're totally self-sufficient should take such a ridiculous amount of time that few players are able to do it.

  • TROLL_HARDTROLL_HARD Caucasian/WhiteMember Posts: 312

    I just checked in here to see how this game was doing, but this thread seems to have got off topic a bit.  According to the official site, on FEB 6:

     

    Just a notice to say that we at the development team are still alive and still sorting through some internal issues. We expect to resume development within the next couple of weeks. 

  • marinridermarinrider Tomball, TXMember Posts: 1,556 Uncommon

    Originally posted by TROLL_HARD

    I just checked in here to see how this game was doing, but this thread seems to have got off topic a bit.  According to the official site, on FEB 6:
     
    Just a notice to say that we at the development team are still alive and still sorting through some internal issues. We expect to resume development within the next couple of weeks. 

    The last time I played (cant put a date on it) they were having some random issues and had decided to take out all the quests temporarly.  That was my 2nd attempt to play.  After that I've decided I'll just wait until they consider it complete to go back.

  • KhaerosKhaeros Monroe, NYMember Posts: 452

    Vaportide, bros.

     

    Vaportide.

  • marinridermarinrider Tomball, TXMember Posts: 1,556 Uncommon

    Originally posted by Khaeros

    Vaportide, bros.
     
    Vaportide.

    Vaportide? Try Vaporware?

     

    Anyway, Vaporware means the game doesnt really exist.  But im positive this game exists, whether it makes it to market or not is another story, but it exists.

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