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Know what I miss in mmo's? Grouping.
Siveria
Member UncommonPosts: 1,419
Before you say "well mmo's these days have partying/grouping" I mean grouping where its required outside of dungeons to level up etc. The last game that I have played that was like this was ff11, I've played pretty much every mmo thats come out for the last 11 or 12 years. Most of them were bascally single player games with a glorifed chat room till the end. Recently ff11 lost this aspect to it when they made it piss easy to level, you still can group but now you can solo nearly as fast (least outside of abbysea). Personally I think the point to a mmo should be partying and interaction as its main focus, sadly most just have grouping at endgame or in dungeons, because its just not needed anywhere else.
Am I the only one who misses this aspect of mmo's? I've felt mmo's have bascally become glorifed single player games, with worthless "endgame" and no real goal to hit max level. What happened to the old mmo's? where it was about the journey and not the destination like it is now. I can't be the only one who misses those times... Also WoWtards and current gen mmorpg players please don't bother replying because you'll have no damned idea what I am talking about in the older mmo's, this is for the oldbies who have started playing mmo's way before wow.
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A. Proven right (if something bad happens)
or
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Comments
I agree with you to an extent, I played XI and was the best MMO experience I've had, If you didnt group up then you wasnt going to get far, the added advantage to this, it kept the asshats away, because if you didnt behave you was out of the group and you would find it diffcult to get another group if you continued being an asshat. As a PvE game it was a great agame and a pity we never seen anymore games like it, and a bigger pity that SE didnt learn from it with its abyssmal FFXIV. The disadvantage it lost a lot of players because they couldnt get to level cap in 1 week like most MMO's that are released these days.
Yeah, I do miss waiting for a defensive fighter and healer to join my CIS group so I can finish the last part, then finding one but realizing that they have no clue what CIS is, so having to bring them in and start from the beginning. When they got to the point that I am on, we all realize that the healer is now level 26 so they have no motivation to continue the quest line (minimum level 28 to grab), and they quit. I hit the channels for guild and a grouping userchat and we get another great volunteer, but it seems like they haven't heard of this anomaly called CIS and so we bring them in and..
Good times, those. Good times.
Or how about in some of the older MUDs (is that old enough for you?) spamming up the global OOC chat waiting for a nice guy to volunteer being in top formation and taking all the hits? I especially loved playing priests, clerics, or otherwise healers in MUDs - highly enjoyable gameplay, typing 'look <buddy>' for all 8 of my friends and waiting for one of those to say "This person is injured" and then typing 'cast 'heal' <buddy>' which I bound to an alias named heal <buddy>, then waiting for the next round of big damage before doing it again. Then we had other sorts of fun with mobs that would use more than just autoattacks - aoe attacks and doublestriking made my job really fun (and my log look like this:)
look buddy2
heal buddy2
heal buddy2
look buddy2
look buddy3
heal buddy3
curepoison buddy3
heal buddy3
look buddy1
"X launches a flurry of attacks at Buddy2!"
"X hits Buddy2, causing a bone-crushing sound!"
"X hits Buddy2, causing a bone-crushing sound!"
"X hits Buddy2, causing a bone-crushing sound!"
"X hits Buddy2, causing a bone-crushing sound!"
heal buddy2
"Buddy2 has died!"
Of course, if I never played a healer, then we wouldn't ever be able to progress in anywhere besides the 'newbie area for non-newbies'.. I wonder why people didn't really play healers in that game! Hm!
No, you're not the only one who misses it. And I play both current gen MMOs and MUDs at the same time, so do I count for your little disclaimer telling me not to post?
Well, too late, I guess.
Pro tip Khaeros, STOP PLAYING THEMEPARKS!
What? !!!
Quests with no stages?
Anyone at any level can join in?
The loot is always valuable?
Not having outdated UIs?
Where could one find this magical world of unicorns?
In a sandbox of course!
The problem is when people who only have half an hour or an hour to play are forced to spend half of that time looking for a group before they can do anything. If a game is only really playable by people who can set aside chunks of hours at a time every single time they play, then that's a very small potential customer base. Far too many games assumed that players would magically find a group, without putting any real thought into how players would find a group--or in some cases, actively trying to make it harder for players to find a group.
Instead, what you need to do is to take a good grouping system like that of Spiral Knights, and then put it into a real MMORPG rather than a somewhat, kinda, not really an MMORPG like Spiral Knights. And then you can require grouping without breaking the game.
The solution for those people? Play Diablo or WoW.
You mean there's one where the developers aren't crazy, unable to communicate, liars, or a combination of all three?
I agree with OP completely. Moet (newer) MMO's lack grouping big-time and by now I've given up on finding groups in the 'open world' by now *is sad*
Lineage II (before the Goddess of Destruction) used to have some interesting party area's (both full party and smaller party) both in the open field as well as in dungeons (also the non-instanced ones), but with the coming of GoD that's kinda gone as well, unless you're 85+ and go to Harnak or ar 90+ the Gardens of Genesis or do the (daily) dungeons. The rest is all solo now
On the other hand, Aion still has area's that's a forced party area, which you have to go through to progress. And here we have a design flaw at lower levels where you hardly can go through them because of the lack of players around your level (I hope this problem will be solved soon when Aion goes F2P)
But in general, there are little to no 'open world' parties required anymore these days in MMORPG's. At times I'm wondering where the Mass of MMORPG has gone...
You feel wrong. I level up several toons using LFD. Now tell me how that is a SINGLE player game. Last time I count, there were FIVE OF US inside a dungeon.
And no, i don't miss it at all. If i want to group (and that is often), i can either group with guildies, or LFD .. no hassle, fast group. And if i want to solo, there is always the world out there.
It is a mistake to assume there is a single POINT of the MMO that players need to adhere to. It is all about choices and different play style. People are different, and they do whatever they want in the game. You need to accept this basic human nature.
Why do you think Diablo and WOW are so popular? Of course they do.
Now if developers think that is a big piece of the market, the design choices are obvious. Do not require players to adhere to your schedule, be flexible for them.
GW2 seens like it could strike a happy medium between the two. When someone else is in the area doing the same thing you are, you form an adhoc group. Sure, you're not grouped, but the dynamic event will scale because the both of you are there. It's not forced grouping, but it doesn't detract from grouping either.
My wife and I have been leveling together in WoW on the alliance side (we're both horde normally). The thing I have found is that not only does grouping slow down your leveling rate, but there are also quests where one of us will interact with a NPC and the other can't do a thing with him for the duration. So we're having to repeat certain steps of quests. That's really annoying.
Grouping should NEVER be detrimental in a mmo, from a mechanics stand point, it should always add something to the experience. That's what's been lost when most mmos became solo friendly themeparks.
I really hope the GW2 system actually works the way they intend it to, and if so, that other developers will catch on.
I'm with ya, OP. I miss grouping and just enjoying the social dynamic of that AND the combat dynamic. Somehow it all just used to be more...I don't know...fun.
However, let me add this....
Finding a group and doing anything in modern day MMOs is just NOT FUN. If you're playing a game that does it through chat channels, you get ignored. If you're playing a game that has queues for groups, then the group usually has no reason to talk to each other, they just want to rush through and complete their objective. There's really not much in the way of exploration anymore either. I remember running around with groups of people just exploring and finding stuff and running into mobs to kill and finding scenic places in games, etc.
People have become much less social in games. Seems they're doing their socializing on Facebook or something and no longer care for the social aspects of games. It's sad really. Maybe those of us who miss this need to form a guild for TSW and/or GW2 or whatever and then hang together like we WANT to do?
I'm playing SWTOR right now and there are heroics and flashpoints that I've had in my log since I started playing. I might be able to find a group to do them, but with this game....I just don't really care about them, so the non-grouping is my own fault in SWTOR. I don't ask, so I don't group. I really bought SWTOR thinking it was going to be a single player RPG really, more or less, so....I haven't been disappointed, because that's how I've played it really. I've grouped 3 times now, I think...in a month of playing off and on. /shrug It doesn't FEEL like a grouping game to me....THAT part is Bioware, not me. But regardless....I do miss grouping and socializing and fighting together.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
I think if you search there's still some of game like this.
The problem is, they have low playerbase.
Because the majority of gamer aren't interested in this.
If the majority aren't interested, the majority of game won't be like this since game want to be sucessful and make money. (Can't blame them either).
In MMO there's a big "Community problem" alot of the time. By that I mean either poeple just beeing more immature, or can't take jokes, put trolls and normal people in the bucket. So many different people. It's not always easy to find people that fit together.
Plus, after that you have the "wait time". Finding people to level up, because YOU HAVE to group is boring. GW2 and TSW this years kinda try to remedy this with dynamic events and more open world. So you can do exp-event and stuff with others more easy. But in the end, you will still be able to Solo everything pretty easily and won't need to group.
In the end I would the main problem might be you. The problem might actually be the players of today. I mean so many time you can just talk in general chat in any games saying : Hey I'm looking for someone to level-up, exp, grind, quest (whatever you want to do). I'm 100% sure you'll be able find someone. Not every time, depand of the game you play and their playerbase. But now instead of everything beeing serve to you on a plate (forcing to group up, so soloplayer still want to party) you need to, yourself, find a group.
I just rediscovered an awsome true multiplayer game, with grouping and awsome PvP. Its called Risk. No problem finding good PvP and backstabbing allies.
IMO its better than all MMO these days. Really sad...
Hauken Stormchaser
I want pre-CU back
Station.com : We got your game
Yeah?, Well i want it back!!!
Don't remind me... I'm playing WoW again the last 4 weeks (yes, no kidding), leveling my warlock up from 30 or so till 74 now (slacker!) doing lots of random dungeons. In all those dungeons I've done, only 2 I've had a fun party with where there was quite some chat and no flaming at the healer/tank. But in general, you're really reflecting the actual thing that's happening with random parties these days. Honestly, can't wait to hit 85 and start raiding with the guild (couple of RL friends in it)
Blame quest grinding and instancing.
The last time I grouped just for the hell of it was Vanguard. That game got grouping right. I found random people inside dungeons (non instanced) and just joined up with them to push deeper into the scarier parts. An experience can form dynamically just like that. A dungeon doesn't have to be a linear scripted gauntlet barely big enough for 5 people. You can make it a deep massive complex with all sorts of secrets like old MMOs did. Got a group of 5? Explore the upper levels. Solo? Stick near the entrance. Maybe you're exploring and you join in with a larger group, now you can push into the inner sanctum and get at the really challenging stuff...
Man, Vanguard, DAoC... just finding other random people and talking while hunting monsters and exploring. No quest grinding, no grouping for just 1 step in a quest chain and then warping to an instance. A real MMO experience. Contrary to popular belief, it was enitrely possible to level alone. It just wasn't as rewarding, and it shouldn't be. Grouping is harder than soloing, doing something harder should give you a better reward.
I love grouping but can do without waiting upwards of 8 hours for an invite to one like i did many times in FFXI. My own fault for leveling a Dark Knight first i suppose. The process to hit max level took me 8 months, which was still pretty quick back then.
Of course i next decided to level a bard and hit max level in 3 weeks. Gotta love spam invites as you're logging on because bard was mandatory for everything.
Grouping yay. Waiting, no thanks.
You are echoing the thoughts in my head, I've been playing SWTOR the same as you, and while I could group, I even see opportunities to group flash by, but I'm just not incentived enough to bother.
I too miss the days when it was really sort of forced upon you, with a combination of mechanics that both punished you for failing to group and rewarded you for taking the time to put one together.
Throw in some decent downtime mechanics to give folks a chance to talk rather than fight, fight, fight while grouping and it was a much more enjoyable experience than I find today.
Also people were more patient, you rarely saw posts such as I've seen in this thread about people not knowing how to do a certain fight, back in early DAOC we routinely took new folks under our wing and showed them the ropes, but in all fairness, combat in that title was unlike today's "dancing with the stars" scripted routines where everyone has to play their part right on queue.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Basically this.
I am not interested in WAITING for a game. I am interested in PLAYING a game.
I am not interested in chatting during dead time of a game. If i want to chat, i go to a chat room.
My in-game communicaton mostly sticks to the task at hand (i.e. killing the boss). I will occasionally chat with guildies but a MMO is not a glorified chat-room.
You should play WOW. It has the same dynamics WITHOUT all the pain.
Grouping for dungeons is more rewarding than solo-quest. You level faster and you get blue items.
And you don't have all the down-side of EQ .. slow progression, no instance/a lot of camping, grinding very boring single mob (fighting in an instance with varying bosses is a lot more fun).
Most people who like grouping like grouping.
They tend not to require every other player to be forced to group in order to enjoy grouping.
I mean if you want to criticize ToR's lack of a dungeon finder feature, that's fair. But certainly in RIFT grouping was frequent and convenient and if you were healer/tank you could do it like WOW and purely group your way to max level.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Ummm RIFT had grouping, and it was like grouping with bots most time. No one spoke no one socialized. Even in the large RIFT events, which was a system I originally thought wow this could be fun.. I found that no one hardly spoke. They joined up without so much as a hello and after the event was over they left without a goodbye. Occasionally 1 or 2 people might actuallly speak with each other. Or you might get someone trying to shout out commands that half the people involved ignored anyway.
This is actually one of the things I fear might happen in GW2. I will Keep my fingers crossed on that.
I think all the Automated UIs that are coming about play a huge factor in people not socializing. I am sure you will get people come here and start ranting about people use voice client and are talking but they are talking with their friends.,. Well in a game where you have people you are actually supposedly working with.. Speaking to those people instead of treating them like bots goes a long way.
If people want a group friendly game I highly recommend checking out Vanguard. Im not playing it myself but apparently it is about to F2P and is now getting some much needed dev support again. The game was based and built with grouping in mind. That doesnt mean there are solo areas and quests. It just means the most rewarding aspects of the game come from the huge open world dungeons that are group oriented. Its also a game where PUGging is not considered a bad thing. But some people do regularly and made alot of friends doing it. Something most post WOW game players seem to hate to do.
It's been a while since I've played WoW, but when I played, it was illustrative of the problem, not the solution. If you wanted to group for a relative handful of the most popular things, sure, you could get a group for it. But if you wanted to go way off and do some obscure content that most people skip, good luck. The automatic group finding tool won't help you. My understanding is that that tool has improved some since I played.
But if you want to group with your friends? Sorry, no can do. You're a different level from some of your friends, and that makes grouping together a massive no-no. Technically the game would allow the higher level player to trivially slaughter everything while the lower level player mostly stood there and watched, but it didn't make for interesting gameplay.
There are good reasons why I mentioned Spiral Knights. It's not just a name pulled out of a hat.
1) Content difficulty scales to group size. Have a 4-man group and lose a player? No problem. The content will make itself easier immediately, so that clearing it isn't much easier or harder than before. And if you get a fourth player back, the content difficulty scales itself right back up.
2) Coarse level-appropriateness. Getting better gear gives you access to deeper tiers. Still, there are only three tiers, and even brand new players aren't stuck on tier 1 for long. After that, everyone is geared for either tier 2 or tier 3, so it's not like how in WoW, you could have 10 different players, with no two of them a suitable level/gear for the same content.
3) Higher "levels" can do lower level content--and reasonably. Once you've got a full set of five star gear, that doesn't mean that tier 2 is completely trivial. In fact, deeper tier gear gets heavily nerfed down when used in earlier tiers, so in tier 2, your five star gear isn't necessarily much better than three star gear. If you're bad at the game, you'll still struggle even with five star gear in tier 2 (which is meant for 2-3 star gear). Furthermore, the loot in tier 2 isn't completely stupid and worthless to a player decked out in five star gear. It's not as good as tier 3 loot, certainly.
4) Easy to jump into PUGs. A player can request to enter a PUG for a given set of content (gate and tier). The game will immediately place the player into a PUG that isn't full, is set to allow PUG joiners, and is no more than halfway through a tier. Only if there is no such group in the entire game will the game fail to place the player, in which case, it will suggest that he start his own group. The group leader can change a flag to accept PUG players or not at any time.
5) Easy to group with friends and guildies. The game gives you a list of everyone on your friends list who is online, and also everyone in your guild who is online. It will tell you exactly where they are, and how many players are in their group. If their group isn't full and the group is set to allow guildies or friends to join (which can be set independently of each other, and also independent of the PUG grouping system), then you can jump right into the group in the middle of whatever they're doing. This is in addition to the option to manually invite particular players.
6) Loot distributed continuously and equitably as you go along. There isn't any "but I've only killed half of the mobs for this kill ten rats quest" problem. There isn't any "don't let anyone else join because we don't want him to roll on the boss drop" problem. The second half of a given tier does tend to drop better loot than the first half. But the game is very much designed such that other party members can come and go as you move along, and it doesn't mess up your loot. And if you come in well into a run, or don't stay for the end, that doesn't mess up your loot, either.
7) Easy to get out of a bad PUG--and without having to start over. One problem with PUGs is that some of them are bad. If you don't like the group you're in, you can "go solo", right where you are, and it will copy the instance you're in, except with you alone in the new copy, and the rest of your former group still in the old copy. And then you can invite others to join you, right where you are, and continue along with your new group.
Does WoW have all of that? Does WoW have any of that? An MMORPG that did have all of those features could easily require players to group everywhere, without it breaking the game because a bunch of people are upset that it's too hard to get a group.
Sometimes I am not sure certain people understand what certain other people mean by grouping.
The grouping Quizzical describes is the exact OPPOSITE of the grouping that I and many others want.
Also, in most games you solo at the start and group up at the very end. In TTS its practically the opposite of that. And soloing is only possible through the use of consumables like poison and potions and traps and enchantments and such. That's the dream. And even then to do anything real you have to group, at best you can group as crafters and enchanters and then a player can do things alone because of that prep.
Not some stupid scaling content bullshit. I understand why GW2 has to scale content although I would prefer they didn't but they get points for at least trying to be interesting.
Well then, what is the grouping that you want, if it's the exact opposite of needing to be in a group for all content?
While Spiral Knights will scale down to a party size of 1, there's no reason why you couldn't take the same system and set some floor that it will not scale below. You could, for example, make content scale with anywhere from 3-6 players. If you have fewer than four players, then you have to do everything at 3-man difficulty--which could be essentially impossible to solo. (Well, in a lot of MMORPGs it would be essentially impossible; Spiral Knights has a sufficiently heavy dependence on player skill that a very good player could solo most or all content that is scaled to 3-man difficulty.)
Note that in Spiral Knights, if you don't want to PUG, you don't have to. If you want to group exclusively with guildies and friends, you can uncheck the open group box, and the PUG system will never randomly throw anyone into your group. A lot of players don't ever PUG. Personally, I found the PUG system to be a good way to meet new people, pick out the ones that are good, and add them to your friends list, so that you'll have other good players to group with in the future.