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Originally posted by Charas
You missed the part where I said "well made". DF to me isn't a well made game.
I don't understand why some of you are on such a crusade against harsh DPs and even FFA PvP for that matter. Are you terrified that it might one day become the norm and that you'll be left out of MMOs for good?
If that's the case, let me say it's completely idiotic. Risk free MMOs aren't going anywhere, that's for sure.
So why do you care if other people, with different tastes, have a game they can enjoy?
I don't understand why some of you are so afraid of people expressing a different OPINION. This is an internet forum. We can express whatever opinions we like.
And it is quite simple. I don't play harsh DP games. So i vote with my wallet and you vote with yours. If it becomes the norm, i will just do something else. There are plenty of entertainment out there. So who is terrified?
And i would ask you the same: "So why do you care if other people, with different tastes, have a game they can enjoy?"
Originally posted by TruthXHurts
How much money does a game have to make for you to consider it a success? For a 12 year old game I would think 100-200k subs would be pretty substantial. You're another one of those people who think if a game isn't as big a success as WoW then it's a failure. That type of mentality is what is holding down the industry.
100-200k certainly is no where close to a leader or a trend setter in the market.
No you don't need to be like WOW to be successful. TOR Is pretty successful, selling 2M copies right out of the gate.
Don't you think TOR is a much better example since it is 10x bigger than UO the day it is out? Rift, Aion .. are all doing MUCH MUCH better although none is close to WOW numbers.
You certainly are not suggesting to use the LOW END of the numbers as a measure of success, are you?
Originally posted by nariusseldon Originally posted by TruthXHurts
You're certainly not comparing current numbers betweena 12 year old game, and a 100 million dollar new release are you?
Modern Warfare 3 Within 24 hours of release, the game sold approximately 4.7 million copies in North American and the United Kingdom. On August 3, 2011, Activision confirmed that the game had sold over 22 million copies worldwide
By yourlogic Everyone should play FPS instead of MMO's because they make more money.
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
Unless you've got electrodes on my nips that give me a good shock every time I die, I'm not going to be scared. Just inconvienienced. I don't play games to sit around waiting for my death debuff to wear off, or to farm the same item 3 or 4 times because some rogue keeps wrecking me with 3 hotkeys on his quickbar. I can understand how people would enjoy the risk, but I can't help but see it as anything other than a waste of my time.
Originally posted by Xyched Unless you've got electrodes on my nips that give me a good shock every time I die, I'm not going to be scared. Just inconvienienced. I don't play games to sit around waiting for my death debuff to wear off, or to farm the same item 3 or 4 times because some rogue keeps wrecking me with 3 hotkeys on his quickbar. I can understand how people would enjoy the risk, but I can't help but see it as anything other than a waste of my time.
That's the other problem I see on here. Everyone says that because it doesn't work in the game they play now it won't work period. I play a game wher eyou actually fear death, or worse capture by your enemy so much that you either hit the self destruct button, or inject yourseld with poison when you are boarded to avoid somethign worse than death. How would you like to have to starve to death in a brig cell because you lost at pvp? That goes above and beyond death penalty, and it is the most rewarding, and the only game to give me a rush of adrenaline when I'm playing that I've found in a long time.
Originally posted by Charas Originally posted by kalinis Originally posted by Charas There's room for games with harsh death penalties and games without. Why must all games be exactly the same? People have different tastes and play MMOs for different reasons. The day all MMOs have the exact same gameplay and rule sets is the day the genre dies. I for one prefer harsh death penalties in MMOs, I know I'm in the minority but I'm pretty sure there's enough like minded players on the globe for at least one well made "old school" MMO to be successful. In modern MMOs, death has become a travelling commodity, ie: oh shit my teleport is on CD...but that's ok, I can just die to travel back to town without any loss. That, to me, is completely absurd. PS: One last thing, I see alot of people claim they're against harsh DPs because they're not fun, as if it was a universal truth. You people are aware that "fun" is a completely subjective notion, yes? What's fun to one person isn't necessarily fun to another and vice versa. To many people, playing a risk free game isn't fun...at all.
ill be honest with u and people dont have to like it but game companies are in the market to make money. A harsh dp scares players away who are casuals,
Casuals make up at least 3/4 of the gaming population. The problem with games witha harsh dp is they become niche, Any company making one has to realize its making a niche title that wont pull in casuals as easily, especially if the harsh dp applies to pvp,
I still say u can make a game a huge challenge without punishing people with a harsh dp, That said the real challenge in mmo's isnt not dying but learning how to beat the big bad monsters u fight.
Harsh dp will just keep alot of players from even trying certain content for fear of the repurcussions. Yea u will get your playerers who will risk there gear or what not to take on a challenge but hey are a very very small minority.
Yes I know, I understand why they're not being made. What I don't understand is why people get flamed to death as soon as they dare whisper the words "harsh death penalty" or "FFA PvP". To each his own, right?
I think those asking for harsh death penalty get "flamed", because some people in their camp also try to belittle people that don't like their style of play. At that point people from the light death penalty camp get offended and the war starts.
Originally posted by nariusseldon Originally posted by Charas
If it's just your opinion you're expressing, then of course I have no problem, I respect your personal opinion.
What I can't stand is people telling the world how it all is, ie: "nobody likes harsh DPs", "they're not fun", "no serious developer will ever make such a game again".
Not only are these claims wrong, they're also offensive, to me at least.
I like something and I keep getting told that I'm in the minority and that I shouldn't be taken seriously....basically.
Originally posted by nariusseldon Originally posted by Charas
It's because you vote with your wallet. I have no problem with their being different types of games for different people to enjoy. What i do have a problem with is that 99.9% of games nowadays are designed so that players can beat them with no challenge at all, almost like watching a movie with a game controller. As long as these games are successful then it hurts the development of the games I like, games with harsh death penalties and challenge.
My favorite games these days are EVE and Dark Souls. The worst game ever made is SWTOR. EVE is the only mmorpg I have played where I would actually get "the shakes" sometimes during PVP. It is because everything is on the line when you get into a fight in EVE. If you die, most of your shit is straight up destroyed, leaving only a portion for your enemy to loot. There is no substitute for an adhrenaline rush though. You just can't get that in games like WoW (or worse, SWTOR) In SWTOR if you die not only is there no death penalty, you can self res yourself right where you died. That really takes the cake for eazymode.
With a harsh death penalty, suddenly conflicts between Corporations(guilds) become meaningful. If some other corp is knocking out your ships left and right you better damn well hit the negotiation table or your corp is done for a while. This setup leads to a lot of exciting stories, so much even that a lot of non-EVE players like to read and comment on EVE blogs. Non-Wow players sure as hell don't read and comment on WoW blogs.
Anyway, i find it sickening how eazymode games have become and hope that the industry can preserve the idea of challenge and risk/reward in future games. That is why i feel the need to troll, denigrate, insult, and hate certain games.
Are you a Pavlovian Fish Biscuit Addict? Get Help Now!I will play no more MMORPGs until somethign good comes out!
Originally posted by AvatarBlade
Yeah true, I've seen alot of that around here too. Easy mode this, carebear that...
Oh well, in the end it's just video games we're talking about. I'll live if I never see another harsh DP MMO.
Let me see:
"nonboby likes harsh DPs" .. well that sounds extreme but certainly it is fair game to discuss or speculate how POPULAR this feature is. I do not think anyone would disagree that only a MINORITY of the MMO players like harsh DP. In fact, that was a main complaint in EQ .. and that is WHY WOW changed it. If it is very popular in EQ, don't u thinkk WOW will step it UP instead of down.
"they're not fun" .. well .. they are NOT FUN FOR ME. I see nothing wrong to express that opinion. NO difference than you say "they are fun for ME".
"no serious developer will ever make such a game again" .. i also see that is fair game to discuss. This is a MMO discussion forum. Don't you think it is reasonable to discuss what developers will or will not do. Certainly it can be an opinion and stated as such.
If you think the claim is wrong, state your reasons.
Let me see:
I agree that no powerhouse company gobbling megacorp machine like EA will ever make a good sandbox MMO. The argument that there is no room for a small well developed sandbox game to thrive is disproven by EvE's success. The fact that some argue against the idea that one should even want to play a different type of game than what they enjoy is just a sign of how ignorant we are becoming as a society.
Originally posted by sullivanj69 Originally posted by nariusseldon Originally posted by Charas
And this might be one of the reasons that not more people want or try out a harsher death penalty/harder game. Because beside "fearing" the difficulty of the game, they also would not want to associate with people like you, thus making the possible player base of such a game even smaller, which brings to an even smaller chance that someone would invest in a harder game. I like DS a lot too, but I find it stupid to go to someone that playes an easier game and tell him he is an idiot because he doesn't enjoy DS.
Originally posted by AvatarBlade Originally posted by sullivanj69 Originally posted by nariusseldon Originally posted by Charas
So form up a righteous anti pk/asshat clan and beat this guy back under his bridge. With current games he's able to spout his garbage unchecked, and invading the chatbubble of your favorite area. In a FFA with death penalty he would be wise to watch his P's and Q's.
Originally posted by nariusseldon Originally posted by TruthXHurts Are you sure? Do you have a number? Or is that just your guess? There are clearly not enough to make DarkFall and the likes huge successes.
Ultima Online is still going strong. What say you to this?
Going strong? How many sub? 100k? 200k? Even Eve has only 300-400k subs, a very small part of the market. On last count (research done by Newzoo), there are 30-40M MMO players just in the US.
I'm only going to say this once, but kids like you really need to go back to school.
For a game as old as UO, if it had 100k-200k concurrent users with so little server numbers, percentage wise it is doing extremely well even in comparison to WoW.
Think about the number of servers WoW is running in the NA server alone, then add up the double of that number for China alone, and a 2/3 of that to the EU servers. Then add up the regional publishers making 2/3 of the money in China for example, and paying off the remaining royalty to Blizzard.
If you were to assume Blizzard makes roughly 1.8billion a year in gross income, you have to realize these guys only get a fraction of it left over as retained earnings after the expenses and deductions are made. In reality that 1.8billion is really bloated if you take into consideration the expenses on advertisement, only partial earnings from different publishers from different regions, and other expenses on 2,700 employee payroll and server maintenances.
In reality, if WoW earns for Blizzard a total of 500million dollars in retained earnings a year, I would be surprised.
Now back to UO. If UO indeed has 100k-200k subs (which I doubt actually), it's probably making 18-36million dollars a year in gross income. Deduct practically nothing for advertisements, maybe a million for server maintenance, and a payroll to probably two handful of employees, and percentage wise, UO would be doing absolutely fantastic.
And I can guarantee you that if UO indeed has 100k-200k subscribers, the few dozen at Mythic UO staff would be getting paid equal salary or even better in comparison to most of 2,700 employees at Blizzard Entertainment. Of course, considering the pure cash Blizzard does make, much of that money goes to the few executives, who I absolutely don't give a piece of turd for.
GRIND sucks? You wanna be max level in a month? Since when did society award easy-goers and lazy-fools?MAKES ME PHOBIC OF STUPIDITY!
Originally posted by Banaghran Originally posted by Axehilt but overall players sure as hell don't find excessive punishment fun.
You shirley have some statistical data on that
Punishment is only a means to an end, and subjective, in L2 loosing possibly 30 minutes of grind every death can be seen as harsh, yet it didnt stop all those pvpers from actually fighting each other, similarly dying crops in farmville
But i agree with the rest of your post.
You consider dying crops in FarmVille to be excessive punishment? The time punishment is moderate, but the gameplay puishment is almost nonexistant. It's basically one more click.
Contrast that with L2 where you're forced to actively be playing the repetition in order to recoup the penalty.
Most MMORPG players want challenge and the risk of failure (although if we're bringing FarmVille into the discussion, that's an excellent data point. In terms of the entire potential gamer audience of the entire games industry, a very sizable group of players isn't interested in failure at all, let alone punishment.) But most popular games don't excessively punish you for failure, they simply do a light immediate reset which puts you right back into the action. Failure involves getting right back into the core gameplay (contrast that with MMORPGs which often involve quite a lot of downtime and/or painful corpse runs upon death.)
And don't call me Shirley.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
1)"Progression" a lot of mmorpgs:
The Red Queen said: "It takes all the running you can do, to keep in the same place."
(2) "Survival" in mmorpgs with a fear of dying:
Two hikers walking along a trail in a forest, came across an enormous brown bear lumbering up the trail towards them. The bear stops some 75 feet from where they are; growls ferociously, & begins running toward them at a full tilt !!! Immediately one of the hikers drops his pack, and grabs for a pair of running shoes at this point the other hiker shouts to him: "What the hell are you doing? You'll never be able to outrun THAT bear!". The first hiker hollers back at him: "I don't have to outrun the bear, I just have to outrun YOU!"
In (1) progression is assumed to be perpetual state and so the cost is therefore an eternal treadmill. In (2) progression is a by-product of successfully surviving and the cost is SOMEONE ELSE dying. If many games are (1) then there is a place for (2) where death is either where the game is over - or is just beginning - again.
To the OP,
After Skimming your article, simple i can tell you, go and play Darkfall, or the free trial, im sure you will love the adrenaline rush, the paranoia at times, the insane PvP and general combat over all, and let me tell you, the grind is long =] well kinda. the sence of accomplishment in Darkfall is quite nice too.
Originally posted by AcmeGamer Originally posted by CujoSWAoA Fear of death is a very simple thing to institute into games. If you die, you lose all your belongings. But companies are too afraid of losing subscribers to do it.
What I liked was systems where it wasn't automatic. Basically systems where items had breakage chances based on type of item and what it was made of, where you could improve and repair as well. On dying, I liked that if someone came out or stumbled upon your corpse they could raise you or organize a rescue.
I had alot more fun when we used to have to organize corpse runs to rescue characters bodies and gear. Which also sometimes got us killed as well. Which might cause more to have to come and rescue the rescue party! One game I used to play priests had an ability called "life keep". It prevented the soul/spirit from departing the body. Also you could find these life keep flasks which head 1 to 3 doses of "life keep" in them.
Anyhow you'd life keep the corpse, then call for a priest and healer. You see you had to heal the body of its wounds before you could raise it. Well you could raise it but it might die again due to bleeding out from the various wounds. Anyhow things like that added a lot to the sense of adventure and wanting to be a part of a group. Though I might often solo just to see what I could achieve on my own under harsher conditions, I loved grouping as well. I loved coming to help others, or picking chests/disarming traps for others and being tipped for my services. I liked going to a crafter and having him craft me gear I wanted to use etc.
Those game worlds felt more immersive and living then what we see now. What we see now is more like pulling a lever and getting a treat tied into watching a movie. Sort of immersive but not in the way a living, breathing, game world should be. btw if you didn't get life kept and or raised your body decomposed and your gear would then be on the ground. There was a chance of the critters picking up the items if they could use them like weapons and shields. And over time the gear would start to also vanish, but if you were fast or others came in time they could gather your gear for you.
I honestly don't see these types of game worlds ever returning, players don't want true risk/reward systems anymore. Sense of achievement is capping, dinging various achievements that mostly don't require much skill or effort, grinding for gear etc. Hell role-play as the norm or at least remaining IC(In character) and not talking about real world crap in the game world died years ago. lol
Gemstone is still my all time favorite! I played that for years until I got talked into playing DAOC...could never go back after I had graphics though...
Originally posted by AvatarBlade Originally posted by sullivanj69 Originally posted by nariusseldon Originally posted by Charas
Hey, I hate the game not the player, so to speak. I don't recall calling anyone an idiot for liking any sort of game. I am pretty sure my trolling/hate posts are directed at games. But i guess i do understand why someone wouldn't want to associate with me, I have always been an RPK at heart. The saddest thing about online games nowadays is that no one even knows what an RPK is anymore...
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
I have never been one who cared much for getting to the lvl cap in any game. I really do not understand the mind of people who rush to the lvl cap in all games. Noone is gona care who hits the lvl cap first be it today tomorr next week or a year from now. It more about the fun along the way.
AMD Phenum II x4 3.6Ghz 975 black edition8 gig RamNvidia GeForce GTX 760
Originally posted by daelnor Originally posted by AcmeGamer Originally posted by CujoSWAoA Fear of death is a very simple thing to institute into games. If you die, you lose all your belongings. But companies are too afraid of losing subscribers to do it.
Yeah once you get used to graphics, going back to reading scrolling text is much harder. I finally found myself suffering from that one myself. I'd love to see a graphical version of a game like GS or DR, at least more of the elements that those games offered.
I don't mind xp loss. I don't mind armor wear. I don't mind time penalties (corpse run, debuff, etc.).
What I don't care for ever having to deal with again is trying to track down my corpse for fear of losing all my items anymore. No thank you. If a game has that in place I'm out unless by design losing those items is a minimal concern at best. I don't want to deal with that sort of hassle and frustration ever again. Dealt with it long enough and frankly there was nothing fun about it in the least.
Especially if some poor soul got into a position where their corpse couldn't be gathered due to a bug or some other issue or some other ridiculous notion where if they were running and died you better hope to god you have someone that can track the corpse to try and find it. No thanks.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
no developer is going to be able to get funding for a game that would fill a niche in the mmo market that caters to hardcore mmo players
sad but true
Originally posted by Palladin signed I have never been one who cared much for getting to the lvl cap in any game. I really do not understand the mind of people who rush to the lvl cap in all games. Noone is gona care who hits the lvl cap first be it today tomorr next week or a year from now. It more about the fun along the way.
I am betting it is mainly the console generation introduced to MMORPG's by WoW.