I agree - GW2 is targeting a different playerbase: mainly MMO players.
I heard that too, guess Im in the right place!
Its like Ive been saying all along, GW has always been about PvP, and WoW has never been about PvP, so we got 2 entirely different games.
How has WoW never been about PvP?? They have more PvP specific game play options than any other MMO on the market along with competitive PvP tournaments held annually by Blizzard.
People say some wacky stuff on these forums.
I wouldn't bother asking tbh. Adalwulff seems to have a problem with making claims and then not being prepared to back them up with proof when asked.
To say WoW has never been about PvP is probably an indicator of how attentive said player was in game. Each expansion introduced a new large PvP zone connected with end game raiding - Wintergrasp and Barradin...the new one are the ones I played. I hated the arenas but damn I loved those open zone battles.
lets not forget the whole basis of the game... two warring factions.... >.<
to the OP nice read, basically I agree, but just be being around GW2 will help Blizzard kill its own game. They will try to copy, fail, they will give Ghostcrawler more stuff to take over and ruin and it will push more ppl away from the game. Anet has a completely different mentality as a company and that alone will take people away from the greedy douches at Blizzard.
I do wonder about one thing however.. since part of how Blizzard pushes players away is its GM system and how they never fix anything(allow people to be harassed, break rules, ect w/o any consequence). Since GW1 there is really no need to contact Anet we haven't seen how they will handle situations like that.. although it could just be that I haven't seen it.
This is my opinion, I don't expect everyone to agree...but it is an opinion grounded in logic.
First off, the payment model. GW2 is buy-to-play, in other words...you purchase the box, and you can play it immediately and not worry about a monthly sub.
The expansions every 3 months is where they will get their money back.
Its not a sub but if you want to play new content with your friends and see and loot new things you will end up buying it for £25 - £30 for each expansion. So you think your not paying a sub but when you divide the expansion costs across 3 months you still are IF you want to continue playing beyond the game release.
I'm in no way knocking it, in fact I don't really care as long as the game is good. But, if your expecting updates/expansions a la WoW you will need to buy the expansions every 3 months, whch will work out the same as a sub.
(Item shop is another source or revenue, albeit, hopefully simply a cosmetic one).
Looking forward to trying it.
I don't know where you're getting "an expansion every 3 months" from. That would be one hell of a dev cycle, and practically impossible to maintain. One expansion per year is more feasible, and even then that can be a frantic pace. If anything, ANet will rely upon their cash shop potentially between expansion cycles, and even then you won't spend as much in a single year as you do on a sub for another game.
Back on topic:
I can see how GW2 and WoW won't be in direct competition for subs, well because GW2 won't have subs. With the ability for someone to level via PvP in GW2, and be instantly max level upon entering a PvP area, you have the potential for a more "weekend warrior" type of play style. I know my wife and I will keep our WoW subs active as long as our guild is still raiding, and we will play GW2 on non-raid nights.
The two games have different focus on end-game content, with WoW being more raid focused than anything else. Where GW2 will impact WoW the most (and other mmos for that matter) is the PvP crowd. From all information available, GW2 looks to have one of the best PvP systems since DAoC, with a wide variety of types of PvP and being able to enjoy it from the get go.
The other area GW2 will impact other mmos is with the casual crowd. There is no endless gear grind, which is a huge benefit to the casual gamer. Additionally, a casual player in GW2 won't always have to play catch up with their friends, because of the sidekick system in place. GW2 makes it much easier to play with your friends regardless of level.
Those who will choose to play GW2 and maintain a sub to another game will most likely do so for a specific reason (such as my example). So yes, in theory GW2 won't have to compete with other mmos in terms of sub costs, but like others have said, they will have to compete for your time.
Right, you seem to get what I was driving at. I agree with the competition for time, for those looking for something different though, GW2 might not have much competition.
I agree - GW2 is targeting a different playerbase: mainly MMO players.
I heard that too, guess Im in the right place!
Its like Ive been saying all along, GW has always been about PvP, and WoW has never been about PvP, so we got 2 entirely different games.
How has WoW never been about PvP?? They have more PvP specific game play options than any other MMO on the market along with competitive PvP tournaments held annually by Blizzard.
People say some wacky stuff on these forums.
I wouldn't bother asking tbh. Adalwulff seems to have a problem with making claims and then not being prepared to back them up with proof when asked.
To say WoW has never been about PvP is probably an indicator of how attentive said player was in game. Each expansion introduced a new large PvP zone connected with end game raiding - Wintergrasp and Barradin...the new one are the ones I played. I hated the arenas but damn I loved those open zone battles.
lets not forget the whole basis of the game... two warring factions.... >.<
to the OP nice read, basically I agree, but just be being around GW2 will help Blizzard kill its own game. They will try to copy, fail, they will give Ghostcrawler more stuff to take over and ruin and it will push more ppl away from the game. Anet has a completely different mentality as a company and that alone will take people away from the greedy douches at Blizzard.
I do wonder about one thing however.. since part of how Blizzard pushes players away is its GM system and how they never fix anything(allow people to be harassed, break rules, ect w/o any consequence). Since GW1 there is really no need to contact Anet we haven't seen how they will handle situations like that.. although it could just be that I haven't seen it.
Yeah, not sure about that as I never played GW1. Thank you for reading the post and responding accordingly, alot of people seem to just enter the thread and respond without understanding the topic, lol.
Sure, WoW didn't have instanced BG's when it was released but what games did back in 2004? Blizz added BG's and PvP specific rewards shortly after launch (I believe in patch 1.5) which means they've had quite a bit of PvP specific content for close to 7 years now.
Good day sir!
Back then we had world PvP, like Planetside, EVE and UO, not some limited version of it like BG's. Blizzard promised open world PvP before the game released, because thats what the other games were doing.
Blizzard added BG's after player demand, and it was always a back seat to raids, the game devs have never denied that.
Thanks for helping me prove my point, good day to you as well.
WoW most certainly had open world PvP even on PvE servers not to mention the fact that about half of the servers were full PvP or RP-PvP at launch. If people didn't want to participate in PvP, that's a player issue, not a game issue.
It's clear that your opinion of PvP only pertains to the ability to gank people who may or may not want to participate in such activities.
You're quick to dismiss instanced battlegrounds as true PvP but in fact it's the most challenging form of PvP since everyone involved is focused on PvP and the related objectives.
And once again, good day to you sir.
Typical, now your calling me a griefer/ganker because I want world pvp. The guys your describing want FFA pvp, with full loot, you should read up on the difference. I've never like it, and Ive said that here many times, if you would bother to actually read my posts.
There was NO world pvp going on, because Blizzard never gave the players incentives to do it, and most players are lazy and would rather go to a BG, where its easy to find targets. The mechanics for world pvp were never develped beyond the ability to simply do it, but even then it was limited, even on pvp servers.
Instead the devs focused on raiding, which is why I say WoW is not about pvp, if it were, people would be participating in world pvp, but they dont, even 7 years later they still dont.
I would again say good day to you, but I dont think you really mean it.
I wil end by saying that your orginal statement that "Wow has never been about PvP" is inaccurate. As we delve a little deeper into the discussion, you have very valid points regarding the current state of open world PvP in WoW. No one is saying Blizz did a bang up job on open world PvP but where they do offer a lot of enjoyable PvP content (in my opinion) is in the instanced BG's and even incentive based PvP centric zones like Wintergrasp and Tol Barad.
I do agree that it would be nice to have more open world PvP but WoW has become a lobby game so that's not happening.
And just because we have spirited debate does not mean that I do not wish you a good day sir
Did you actually read the post? Of course it will compete with other MMOs. The point was, because it isn't a WoW clone it is targetting a different playerbase of gamers. Of course there will be overlap, but the hardcore GW2 playerbase wants something very different from the hardcore WoW playerbase. Please read before you post.
Do you not see the major flaw in your argument? This is like saying Skyrim isn't aimed at people who may also like Mass Effect. Do you really think there is just going to be "some" overlap? There's going to be a lot of overlap, that's the point of an MMO, they want to attract many different types of players, not just one set, they're also not just hoping for some overlap, they want to take as many players (read interest as many), as they can.
They want WOW players, TOR players, GW1 players, non MMO players and they want them all equally.
On top of that the people playing WOW and others, might want something different just as much as anyone else.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
OP is spot on. My wife and I are exited for this spring for the reasons stated, as we can only afford 1 sub atm we are going to be able to continue our WOW sub, play Guild Wars2 and revisit AIon with there incoming FTP model.
This is my opinion, I don't expect everyone to agree...but it is an opinion grounded in logic.
First off, the payment model. GW2 is buy-to-play, in other words...you purchase the box, and you can play it immediately and not worry about a monthly sub.
The expansions every 3 months is where they will get their money back.
Its not a sub but if you want to play new content with your friends and see and loot new things you will end up buying it for £25 - £30 for each expansion. So you think your not paying a sub but when you divide the expansion costs across 3 months you still are IF you want to continue playing beyond the game release.
I'm in no way knocking it, in fact I don't really care as long as the game is good. But, if your expecting updates/expansions a la WoW you will need to buy the expansions every 3 months, whch will work out the same as a sub.
(Item shop is another source or revenue, albeit, hopefully simply a cosmetic one).
Looking forward to trying it.
I don't know where you're getting "an expansion every 3 months" from. That would be one hell of a dev cycle, and practically impossible to maintain. One expansion per year is more feasible, and even then that can be a frantic pace. If anything, ANet will rely upon their cash shop potentially between expansion cycles, and even then you won't spend as much in a single year as you do on a sub for another game.
Back on topic:
I can see how GW2 and WoW won't be in direct competition for subs, well because GW2 won't have subs. With the ability for someone to level via PvP in GW2, and be instantly max level upon entering a PvP area, you have the potential for a more "weekend warrior" type of play style. I know my wife and I will keep our WoW subs active as long as our guild is still raiding, and we will play GW2 on non-raid nights.
The two games have different focus on end-game content, with WoW being more raid focused than anything else. Where GW2 will impact WoW the most (and other mmos for that matter) is the PvP crowd. From all information available, GW2 looks to have one of the best PvP systems since DAoC, with a wide variety of types of PvP and being able to enjoy it from the get go.
The other area GW2 will impact other mmos is with the casual crowd. There is no endless gear grind, which is a huge benefit to the casual gamer. Additionally, a casual player in GW2 won't always have to play catch up with their friends, because of the sidekick system in place. GW2 makes it much easier to play with your friends regardless of level.
Those who will choose to play GW2 and maintain a sub to another game will most likely do so for a specific reason (such as my example). So yes, in theory GW2 won't have to compete with other mmos in terms of sub costs, but like others have said, they will have to compete for your time.
GW1 had 4(some say 3 since EoN was bearly an xpack) xpacks during its first 2 years, sadly Anet dropped content support for GW2 2 years after its release for the most part with some adjustments after they released their xpacks.
The only black spot in my opinion on Anets record(besides the fact i didnt enjoyed GW1 that much) was that they stoped releasing content 2 years after release, and havent released any real content updates for 5 years now alltough the game is still supported(alltought technically its under extended support by NC now and no longer directly via Anet).
If they want to keep this game alive, and this game wasnt cheap might no be ToR expensive but im pretty sure i was in the 80-100M region especially since they had to move to much more server oriented setup rather than pure p2p and even offline gaming exprience as GW1 was with its instanced content.
GW2 has a new/updated engine, pretty much new art assests, lots of voice overs and a presistant world which requires server side hosting unlike GW1 which pretty much required only a AAA gateway and a chat host. Its been developed for atleast 5 years since it was announced in early(march feb i belive) 2007 which means the project was piloted and signed off say atleat 6 months prior to that, and keeping a dev team for that long with out any income(as they havent relased any content updates and dont get any income from subs) takes its toll.
GW1 was a nice cash in since it was a fairly simple game, didnt had that much content in it(first campaing took about 20 hours to complete), and as stated didnt require a large scale backend infrastructure. Further more i also belive that Anet is tied much deeper into NCsoft these days since they had to recive much more funding to develop GW2 than they need to do GW1, and GW1 wasnt a best selling hit either, even very optimisic estimates estimate less than 1M copies sold in EU and US for the entire trilogy, with about 400K for the ogirinal full priced game. Yes its much harder to estimate GW1 sales since they went digital allmost instantly but its there is no way they made enough money to fund GW2 not even close.
NCsoft seen that GW1 and Anet had potential and desided to front a real MMO instead of attempting to build upon what GW1, that would also explain the lack of content support for GW1 pass 2007 since these days its much easier to attrack people to a new release than to an existing one.
GW2 will have to cover all these dev and publishing costs, so yeah expect smaller DLC every 3-6 months for 10-20US and full expacs(atleast GW1 level ones) at 9-12 months + a vanity shop. Without thise there is no way that GW2 would ever come close to paying back its dev costs and the cost of upkeeping Anet as a 1st party studio.
Did you actually read the post? Of course it will compete with other MMOs. The point was, because it isn't a WoW clone it is targetting a different playerbase of gamers. Of course there will be overlap, but the hardcore GW2 playerbase wants something very different from the hardcore WoW playerbase. Please read before you post.
Do you not see the major flaw in your argument? This is like saying Skyrim isn't aimed at people who may also like Mass Effect. Do you really think there is just going to be "some" overlap? There's going to be a lot of overlap, that's the point of an MMO, they want to attract many different types of players, not just one set, they're also not just hoping for some overlap, they want to take as many players (read interest as many), as they can.
They want WOW players, TOR players, GW1 players, non MMO players and they want them all equally.
On top of that the people playing WOW and others, might want something different just as much as anyone else.
Obviously they want as many playing as possible. Did you read the original post??? This wasn't my point at all. My point was, since GW2 is not a clone of WoW it won't have to do what WoW does better than WoW. A game like SWTOR, which is obviously a WoW clone, has to employ the WoW model better than Blizzard does. Since it does not, it will lose those players that want that model back to WoW...since WoW does it better than SWTOR. GW2 doesn't have to worry about this, because it isn't trying to be WoW, it's trying to be different. This cannot possibly be that difficult to understand, maybe i'm just not explaining it well enough. There seems to be alot of confusion in this thread.
I agree - GW2 is targeting a different playerbase: mainly MMO players.
I heard that too, guess Im in the right place!
Its like Ive been saying all along, GW has always been about PvP, and WoW has never been about PvP, so we got 2 entirely different games.
How has WoW never been about PvP?? They have more PvP specific game play options than any other MMO on the market along with competitive PvP tournaments held annually by Blizzard.
People say some wacky stuff on these forums.
I wouldn't bother asking tbh. Adalwulff seems to have a problem with making claims and then not being prepared to back them up with proof when asked.
To say WoW has never been about PvP is probably an indicator of how attentive said player was in game. Each expansion introduced a new large PvP zone connected with end game raiding - Wintergrasp and Barradin...the new one are the ones I played. I hated the arenas but damn I loved those open zone battles.
lets not forget the whole basis of the game... two warring factions.... >.<
to the OP nice read, basically I agree, but just be being around GW2 will help Blizzard kill its own game. They will try to copy, fail, they will give Ghostcrawler more stuff to take over and ruin and it will push more ppl away from the game. Anet has a completely different mentality as a company and that alone will take people away from the greedy douches at Blizzard.
I do wonder about one thing however.. since part of how Blizzard pushes players away is its GM system and how they never fix anything(allow people to be harassed, break rules, ect w/o any consequence). Since GW1 there is really no need to contact Anet we haven't seen how they will handle situations like that.. although it could just be that I haven't seen it.
That reminds me of SWG, there were 2 warring factions there too, but rarely were they fighting. You would even see them grouping together!
So its just like my point about WoW and pvp, jsut because its there, really means nothing if its not used or developed. I never understood why the devs allowed the two factions to play cooperativly. That really killed the immersion for me.
That reminds me of SWG, there were 2 warring factions there too, but rarely were they fighting. You would even see them grouping together!
So its just like my point about WoW and pvp, jsut because its there, really means nothing if its not used or developed. I never understood why the devs allowed the two factions to play cooperativly. That really killed the immersion for me.
did you play wow on a PVE server? because RARELY did the factions work together on PVP servers, lvling on a pvp server means your questhub is dead because some high lvls decided that was fun, or you got corpse camped because they thought that was fun too. Now I don't agree that that is PVP in an honorable sense but it is PVP non the less and that is just a small fraction of the PVP in WoW.
also in SWTOR there might not be much fighting because they keep banning those that try to PVP in any way other than BGs or w/e they call them.
GW2 will compete against WoW, having different game mechanics, price models doesn't mean they are not competitors.
WoW's and GW2's potential playerbase overlap to a decent degree and not everyone will pay/play 2 games at once even
with a buy to play model.
Almost every MMORGP will have to compete with WoW, thats not my opinion but a fact.
If GW2 is more fun on the long run then WoW, people will jump ship to the free game...Not many people have the time to invest intoo 2 MMO's at the same time.
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
Did you actually read the post? Of course it will compete with other MMOs. The point was, because it isn't a WoW clone it is targetting a different playerbase of gamers. Of course there will be overlap, but the hardcore GW2 playerbase wants something very different from the hardcore WoW playerbase. Please read before you post.
Do you not see the major flaw in your argument? This is like saying Skyrim isn't aimed at people who may also like Mass Effect. Do you really think there is just going to be "some" overlap? There's going to be a lot of overlap, that's the point of an MMO, they want to attract many different types of players, not just one set, they're also not just hoping for some overlap, they want to take as many players (read interest as many), as they can.
They want WOW players, TOR players, GW1 players, non MMO players and they want them all equally.
On top of that the people playing WOW and others, might want something different just as much as anyone else.
Obviously they want as many playing as possible. Did you read the original post??? This wasn't my point at all. My point was, since GW2 is not a clone of WoW it won't have to do what WoW does better than WoW. A game like SWTOR, which is obviously a WoW clone, has to employ the WoW model better than Blizzard does. Since it does not, it will lose those players that want that model back to WoW...since WoW does it better than SWTOR. GW2 doesn't have to worry about this, because it isn't trying to be WoW, it's trying to be different. This cannot possibly be that difficult to understand, maybe i'm just not explaining it well enough. There seems to be alot of confusion in this thread.
Yes I've read the OP, but, I was replying to the above statements you made, so which is it, the OP or the above statement, which one is your overall point?
Above you said something completely different, you said because it's not a WOW clone it will attract completely different players. My response was toward this point, as again that's like saying Skyrim is made for a completely different set of players than ME2 was, it just doesn't work that way, they're all competing for the same general genre related audience.
On top of that and more toward the point in your reply, WOW is big on BG(competitive PVP) This is a major focus in GW2, why would it not attract those players or compete for them?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Did you actually read the post? Of course it will compete with other MMOs. The point was, because it isn't a WoW clone it is targetting a different playerbase of gamers. Of course there will be overlap, but the hardcore GW2 playerbase wants something very different from the hardcore WoW playerbase. Please read before you post.
Do you not see the major flaw in your argument? This is like saying Skyrim isn't aimed at people who may also like Mass Effect. Do you really think there is just going to be "some" overlap? There's going to be a lot of overlap, that's the point of an MMO, they want to attract many different types of players, not just one set, they're also not just hoping for some overlap, they want to take as many players (read interest as many), as they can.
They want WOW players, TOR players, GW1 players, non MMO players and they want them all equally.
On top of that the people playing WOW and others, might want something different just as much as anyone else.
Obviously they want as many playing as possible. Did you read the original post??? This wasn't my point at all. My point was, since GW2 is not a clone of WoW it won't have to do what WoW does better than WoW. A game like SWTOR, which is obviously a WoW clone, has to employ the WoW model better than Blizzard does. Since it does not, it will lose those players that want that model back to WoW...since WoW does it better than SWTOR. GW2 doesn't have to worry about this, because it isn't trying to be WoW, it's trying to be different. This cannot possibly be that difficult to understand, maybe i'm just not explaining it well enough. There seems to be alot of confusion in this thread.
Yes I've read the OP, but, I was replying to the above statements you made, so which is it, the OP or the above statement, which one is your overall point?
Above you said something completely different, you said because it's not a WOW clone it will attract completely different players. My response was toward this point, as again that's like saying Skyrim is made for a completely different set of players than ME2 was, it just doesn't work that way, they're all competing for the same general genre related audience.
On top of that and more toward the point in your reply, WOW is big on BG(competitive PVP) This is a major focus in GW2, why would it not attract those players or compete for them?
I never said it wouldn't attract those players. I'm pretty sure you completely missed the point. I'm a huge fan of GW2 and really looking forward to it. I think it will attract many different types of gamers. I explained myself in the original post, and then explained myself again in my reply to you. I'm not going to repeat my position for a third time. I'm not trying to be rude, I just can't be bothered to argue something that I wasn't arguing in the first place.
Further more i also belive that Anet is tied much deeper into NCsoft these days since they had to recive much more funding to develop GW2 than they need to do GW1, and GW1 wasnt a best selling hit either, even very optimisic estimates estimate less than 1M copies sold in EU and US for the entire trilogy, with about 400K for the ogirinal full priced game. Yes its much harder to estimate GW1 sales since they went digital allmost instantly but its there is no way they made enough money to fund GW2 not even close.
According to NCSoft GW1 sold over 6.5m copies and that information was released in 2010 so around 7m by now would not be far off.
GW2 will compete against WoW, having different game mechanics, price models doesn't mean they are not competitors.
WoW's and GW2's potential playerbase overlap to a decent degree and not everyone will pay/play 2 games at once even
with a buy to play model.
Almost every MMORGP will have to compete with WoW, thats not my opinion but a fact.
If GW2 is more fun on the long run then WoW, people will jump ship to the free game...Not many people have the time to invest intoo 2 MMO's at the same time.
From the poll done on thise website alone 21.5% people are susbcribed to 2 MMOS. I don't believe that managign two games per week is such a big deal. People play multiple games, always have been. Not to mention that we are talking about two subs here..for these people GW2 would be a great deal.
That reminds me of SWG, there were 2 warring factions there too, but rarely were they fighting. You would even see them grouping together!
So its just like my point about WoW and pvp, jsut because its there, really means nothing if its not used or developed. I never understood why the devs allowed the two factions to play cooperativly. That really killed the immersion for me.
did you play wow on a PVE server? because RARELY did the factions work together on PVP servers, lvling on a pvp server means your questhub is dead because some high lvls decided that was fun, or you got corpse camped because they thought that was fun too. Now I don't agree that that is PVP in an honorable sense but it is PVP non the less and that is just a small fraction of the PVP in WoW.
also in SWTOR there might not be much fighting because they keep banning those that try to PVP in any way other than BGs or w/e they call them.
This did not work for GW1 nor do I think it will work for GW2. I doubt it will attract and keep many WOW players due to the mechanics being dissimilar.
Further more i also belive that Anet is tied much deeper into NCsoft these days since they had to recive much more funding to develop GW2 than they need to do GW1, and GW1 wasnt a best selling hit either, even very optimisic estimates estimate less than 1M copies sold in EU and US for the entire trilogy, with about 400K for the ogirinal full priced game. Yes its much harder to estimate GW1 sales since they went digital allmost instantly but its there is no way they made enough money to fund GW2 not even close.
According to NCSoft GW1 sold over 6.5m copies and that information was released in 2010 so around 7m by now would not be far off.
The thing I wonder about regarding this whole "you can pay for a sub to this other game and play GW2 at the same time" mentality is that IF GW2 delivers everything it's promised, then why on earth would anyone pay to play a different game which offers less?
The perception of 'value for money' is likely to change if Anet pull this off. The amount of content you get for a single box price could even affect the whole gaming market. I certainly will be thinking "Is it still right to pay the same price for a game which offers me 20 hours of content when this one offers me months and at no extra cost?"
Seems to me then that this game could possibly (and hopefully) set the benchmark for value for money in games. If other consumers think the same way and wonder what they are getting for their money then maybe devs might actually be forced to deliver more content for the price, or maybe even reduce the price to make it even worth while.
It's a lofty pipe dream I know, but hey I'm entitled to my hopes.
This guy all the way.
Why would people pay to play WoW, grind gear and do constant busy work when they can jump into GW2 and instantly have fun with friends at no monthly cost?
The thing I wonder about regarding this whole "you can pay for a sub to this other game and play GW2 at the same time" mentality is that IF GW2 delivers everything it's promised, then why on earth would anyone pay to play a different game which offers less?
The perception of 'value for money' is likely to change if Anet pull this off. The amount of content you get for a single box price could even affect the whole gaming market. I certainly will be thinking "Is it still right to pay the same price for a game which offers me 20 hours of content when this one offers me months and at no extra cost?"
Seems to me then that this game could possibly (and hopefully) set the benchmark for value for money in games. If other consumers think the same way and wonder what they are getting for their money then maybe devs might actually be forced to deliver more content for the price, or maybe even reduce the price to make it even worth while.
It's a lofty pipe dream I know, but hey I'm entitled to my hopes.
This guy all the way.
Why would people pay to play WoW, grind gear and do constant busy work when they can jump into GW2 and instantly have fun with friends at no monthly cost?
Because playing just one kind of game is boring for people? variety is good and there are many (just guessing) like me who don't mind playing two MMOS or multiple games at same time. I don't play just one shooter or one strategy title..i mix it up because no matter how much you want to believe that GW2 will offer everything, every MMO on market has something to offer.
GW2 will compete against WoW, having different game mechanics, price models doesn't mean they are not competitors.
WoW's and GW2's potential playerbase overlap to a decent degree and not everyone will pay/play 2 games at once even
with a buy to play model.
Almost every MMORGP will have to compete with WoW, thats not my opinion but a fact.
And I'll add to that by saying, for those gamers with decent jobs, TIME is way way more important than subscription fees. Personally, the money is meaningless as any game is in the big picture chump change if you have a decent job. But time is what is limited. I would say that not only will WOW and GW2 be in competetion, but they will be in competetion from anything that takes up your time like TV, family, etc.
I think this payment model thing is an issue only for the under 21 crowd for the most part, or those over 21 who have History degrees LOL...
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind" 1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN 2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
The thing I wonder about regarding this whole "you can pay for a sub to this other game and play GW2 at the same time" mentality is that IF GW2 delivers everything it's promised, then why on earth would anyone pay to play a different game which offers less?
The perception of 'value for money' is likely to change if Anet pull this off. The amount of content you get for a single box price could even affect the whole gaming market. I certainly will be thinking "Is it still right to pay the same price for a game which offers me 20 hours of content when this one offers me months and at no extra cost?"
Seems to me then that this game could possibly (and hopefully) set the benchmark for value for money in games. If other consumers think the same way and wonder what they are getting for their money then maybe devs might actually be forced to deliver more content for the price, or maybe even reduce the price to make it even worth while.
It's a lofty pipe dream I know, but hey I'm entitled to my hopes.
This guy all the way.
Why would people pay to play WoW, grind gear and do constant busy work when they can jump into GW2 and instantly have fun with friends at no monthly cost?
Further more i also belive that Anet is tied much deeper into NCsoft these days since they had to recive much more funding to develop GW2 than they need to do GW1, and GW1 wasnt a best selling hit either, even very optimisic estimates estimate less than 1M copies sold in EU and US for the entire trilogy, with about 400K for the ogirinal full priced game. Yes its much harder to estimate GW1 sales since they went digital allmost instantly but its there is no way they made enough money to fund GW2 not even close.
According to NCSoft GW1 sold over 6.5m copies and that information was released in 2010 so around 7m by now would not be far off.
Playing: GW2 Waiting on: TESO Next Flop: Planetside 2 Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
I've thought about this in depth, and i can honestly say i just dunno if i can play two games at once due to the fact that GW2 honestly has so much to do that i doubt i will ever login to another game while playing it. maybe after a years time when all my toons are max all my professions max but certainly not before that. I might login to wow to say hi to friends and tell them how fantastic the game is but i wouldn't login to play. So if you are like me and you like experiencing everything a game like GW2 has to offer then why would you login to another game at all?
For me, from what I can see in the videos and press, things I'd like to see in WoW (that are seen in the GW2 pre-beta buzz):
1.) dynamic zones
2.) organic questing
3.) active combat with things like active dodging, rolling, etc.
4.) targetless healing
5.) interactive skills (shooting arrows through another player's fire = fire arrows, for example)
6.) more emphasis on 5man dungeons as "tests of skill"
7.) more open world "events"
8.) a focus on the "world" instead of instances
9.) large scale "AV style" pvp
10.) less focus on "endgame" gear grinds.
11.) competitive obtective based pvp (instead of arena deathmatches).
12.) organic objectives in large scale pvp (build/defend that siege weapon) instead of carrying flags and huttballs.
13.) more compelling animations where what happens on the screen matters more than having a NASA styled UI
14.) Dropping the holy trinity is probably not viable in WoW, but I like how the way GW2 did it in that it seems to make gameplay look more dynamic (no more just stand in place and press a memorized button sequence).
15.) Not having "raids" as the premier content. I have nothing against raids per se, but raiding has essentially snuffed out the oxygen from the rest of the wow pve game.
16.) multi-tapping of resource nodes... no more ninjaing
17.) shared interests in pve... no more kill steals.
18.) organic encouragment to play together... hopefully no more artificial measures like LFD, LFR
COLD CHANCE IN HELL
This will never never never never never never happen in WoW. Guild Wars 2 will compete with WoW, RIFT, TOR and every other mmo because ArenaNET is labeling it a mmorpg. They are not allowed to half ass the game because it is Buy to play.
If ArenaNET is allowed to put out a piss poor product and then blame buy to play then every Guild Wars fan better admit that payment is flawed and is crap. Once you label this a mmorpg and do absolutely nothing to stop the hype you better believe I will hold ArenaNET as accountable as I held Bioware.
When you have the balls to call out every single mmorpg on the market right now and call them out dated and based on old concepts you better not try a cop out excuse that the game is buy to play, so it does not have to compete. If they do that would be the biggest bullshit in mmo history and I hope someone sue's their asses for fraudulent advertising then.
If this does happen then I want public apologies from Massively, Total Biscuit, and G4tv to Blizzard, Trion, and Bioware for the way they have shown clear favoritism to GW2 and crowned it as UO and DAoC 2.0.
Comments
lets not forget the whole basis of the game... two warring factions.... >.<
to the OP nice read, basically I agree, but just be being around GW2 will help Blizzard kill its own game. They will try to copy, fail, they will give Ghostcrawler more stuff to take over and ruin and it will push more ppl away from the game. Anet has a completely different mentality as a company and that alone will take people away from the greedy douches at Blizzard.
I do wonder about one thing however.. since part of how Blizzard pushes players away is its GM system and how they never fix anything(allow people to be harassed, break rules, ect w/o any consequence). Since GW1 there is really no need to contact Anet we haven't seen how they will handle situations like that.. although it could just be that I haven't seen it.
Right, you seem to get what I was driving at. I agree with the competition for time, for those looking for something different though, GW2 might not have much competition.
Sorroe, Human Mesmer
Jade Quarry Server
Yeah, not sure about that as I never played GW1. Thank you for reading the post and responding accordingly, alot of people seem to just enter the thread and respond without understanding the topic, lol.
Sorroe, Human Mesmer
Jade Quarry Server
I wil end by saying that your orginal statement that "Wow has never been about PvP" is inaccurate. As we delve a little deeper into the discussion, you have very valid points regarding the current state of open world PvP in WoW. No one is saying Blizz did a bang up job on open world PvP but where they do offer a lot of enjoyable PvP content (in my opinion) is in the instanced BG's and even incentive based PvP centric zones like Wintergrasp and Tol Barad.
I do agree that it would be nice to have more open world PvP but WoW has become a lobby game so that's not happening.
And just because we have spirited debate does not mean that I do not wish you a good day sir
Good day sir
Do you not see the major flaw in your argument? This is like saying Skyrim isn't aimed at people who may also like Mass Effect. Do you really think there is just going to be "some" overlap? There's going to be a lot of overlap, that's the point of an MMO, they want to attract many different types of players, not just one set, they're also not just hoping for some overlap, they want to take as many players (read interest as many), as they can.
They want WOW players, TOR players, GW1 players, non MMO players and they want them all equally.
On top of that the people playing WOW and others, might want something different just as much as anyone else.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
OP is spot on. My wife and I are exited for this spring for the reasons stated, as we can only afford 1 sub atm we are going to be able to continue our WOW sub, play Guild Wars2 and revisit AIon with there incoming FTP model.
Best spring ever for MMO fans?
GW1 had 4(some say 3 since EoN was bearly an xpack) xpacks during its first 2 years, sadly Anet dropped content support for GW2 2 years after its release for the most part with some adjustments after they released their xpacks.
The only black spot in my opinion on Anets record(besides the fact i didnt enjoyed GW1 that much) was that they stoped releasing content 2 years after release, and havent released any real content updates for 5 years now alltough the game is still supported(alltought technically its under extended support by NC now and no longer directly via Anet).
If they want to keep this game alive, and this game wasnt cheap might no be ToR expensive but im pretty sure i was in the 80-100M region especially since they had to move to much more server oriented setup rather than pure p2p and even offline gaming exprience as GW1 was with its instanced content.
GW2 has a new/updated engine, pretty much new art assests, lots of voice overs and a presistant world which requires server side hosting unlike GW1 which pretty much required only a AAA gateway and a chat host. Its been developed for atleast 5 years since it was announced in early(march feb i belive) 2007 which means the project was piloted and signed off say atleat 6 months prior to that, and keeping a dev team for that long with out any income(as they havent relased any content updates and dont get any income from subs) takes its toll.
GW1 was a nice cash in since it was a fairly simple game, didnt had that much content in it(first campaing took about 20 hours to complete), and as stated didnt require a large scale backend infrastructure. Further more i also belive that Anet is tied much deeper into NCsoft these days since they had to recive much more funding to develop GW2 than they need to do GW1, and GW1 wasnt a best selling hit either, even very optimisic estimates estimate less than 1M copies sold in EU and US for the entire trilogy, with about 400K for the ogirinal full priced game. Yes its much harder to estimate GW1 sales since they went digital allmost instantly but its there is no way they made enough money to fund GW2 not even close.
NCsoft seen that GW1 and Anet had potential and desided to front a real MMO instead of attempting to build upon what GW1, that would also explain the lack of content support for GW1 pass 2007 since these days its much easier to attrack people to a new release than to an existing one.
GW2 will have to cover all these dev and publishing costs, so yeah expect smaller DLC every 3-6 months for 10-20US and full expacs(atleast GW1 level ones) at 9-12 months + a vanity shop. Without thise there is no way that GW2 would ever come close to paying back its dev costs and the cost of upkeeping Anet as a 1st party studio.
Obviously they want as many playing as possible. Did you read the original post??? This wasn't my point at all. My point was, since GW2 is not a clone of WoW it won't have to do what WoW does better than WoW. A game like SWTOR, which is obviously a WoW clone, has to employ the WoW model better than Blizzard does. Since it does not, it will lose those players that want that model back to WoW...since WoW does it better than SWTOR. GW2 doesn't have to worry about this, because it isn't trying to be WoW, it's trying to be different. This cannot possibly be that difficult to understand, maybe i'm just not explaining it well enough. There seems to be alot of confusion in this thread.
Sorroe, Human Mesmer
Jade Quarry Server
That reminds me of SWG, there were 2 warring factions there too, but rarely were they fighting. You would even see them grouping together!
So its just like my point about WoW and pvp, jsut because its there, really means nothing if its not used or developed. I never understood why the devs allowed the two factions to play cooperativly. That really killed the immersion for me.
did you play wow on a PVE server? because RARELY did the factions work together on PVP servers, lvling on a pvp server means your questhub is dead because some high lvls decided that was fun, or you got corpse camped because they thought that was fun too. Now I don't agree that that is PVP in an honorable sense but it is PVP non the less and that is just a small fraction of the PVP in WoW.
also in SWTOR there might not be much fighting because they keep banning those that try to PVP in any way other than BGs or w/e they call them.
If GW2 is more fun on the long run then WoW, people will jump ship to the free game...Not many people have the time to invest intoo 2 MMO's at the same time.
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
Yes I've read the OP, but, I was replying to the above statements you made, so which is it, the OP or the above statement, which one is your overall point?
Above you said something completely different, you said because it's not a WOW clone it will attract completely different players. My response was toward this point, as again that's like saying Skyrim is made for a completely different set of players than ME2 was, it just doesn't work that way, they're all competing for the same general genre related audience.
On top of that and more toward the point in your reply, WOW is big on BG(competitive PVP) This is a major focus in GW2, why would it not attract those players or compete for them?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I never said it wouldn't attract those players. I'm pretty sure you completely missed the point. I'm a huge fan of GW2 and really looking forward to it. I think it will attract many different types of gamers. I explained myself in the original post, and then explained myself again in my reply to you. I'm not going to repeat my position for a third time. I'm not trying to be rude, I just can't be bothered to argue something that I wasn't arguing in the first place.
Sorroe, Human Mesmer
Jade Quarry Server
According to NCSoft GW1 sold over 6.5m copies and that information was released in 2010 so around 7m by now would not be far off.
http://www.joystiq.com/2010/08/31/guild-wars-surpasses-6-5-million-sales-sequel-will-be-released/
From the poll done on thise website alone 21.5% people are susbcribed to 2 MMOS. I don't believe that managign two games per week is such a big deal. People play multiple games, always have been. Not to mention that we are talking about two subs here..for these people GW2 would be a great deal.
Bite Me
This did not work for GW1 nor do I think it will work for GW2. I doubt it will attract and keep many WOW players due to the mechanics being dissimilar.
In Bioware we trust!
Yep - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_PC_video_games
It's the 9th best selling PC game of all time (across all genres, not just MMOs) with 6.5 million.
Pretty sure that makes it a 'best selling hit', what a muppet.
This guy all the way.
Why would people pay to play WoW, grind gear and do constant busy work when they can jump into GW2 and instantly have fun with friends at no monthly cost?
Because playing just one kind of game is boring for people? variety is good and there are many (just guessing) like me who don't mind playing two MMOS or multiple games at same time. I don't play just one shooter or one strategy title..i mix it up because no matter how much you want to believe that GW2 will offer everything, every MMO on market has something to offer.
Bite Me
And I'll add to that by saying, for those gamers with decent jobs, TIME is way way more important than subscription fees. Personally, the money is meaningless as any game is in the big picture chump change if you have a decent job. But time is what is limited. I would say that not only will WOW and GW2 be in competetion, but they will be in competetion from anything that takes up your time like TV, family, etc.
I think this payment model thing is an issue only for the under 21 crowd for the most part, or those over 21 who have History degrees LOL...
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind"
1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN
2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
I agree, but then, I can only speak for myself.
Sorroe, Human Mesmer
Jade Quarry Server
Im still lmao over his other statement about GW1 only taking 20 hrs to finish. He must have hit lvl 20 and assumed it was over.
I see what you did there.
Everything you need to know about Elder Scrolls Online
Playing: GW2
Waiting on: TESO
Next Flop: Planetside 2
Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
I've thought about this in depth, and i can honestly say i just dunno if i can play two games at once due to the fact that GW2 honestly has so much to do that i doubt i will ever login to another game while playing it. maybe after a years time when all my toons are max all my professions max but certainly not before that. I might login to wow to say hi to friends and tell them how fantastic the game is but i wouldn't login to play. So if you are like me and you like experiencing everything a game like GW2 has to offer then why would you login to another game at all?
COLD CHANCE IN HELL
This will never never never never never never happen in WoW. Guild Wars 2 will compete with WoW, RIFT, TOR and every other mmo because ArenaNET is labeling it a mmorpg. They are not allowed to half ass the game because it is Buy to play.
If ArenaNET is allowed to put out a piss poor product and then blame buy to play then every Guild Wars fan better admit that payment is flawed and is crap. Once you label this a mmorpg and do absolutely nothing to stop the hype you better believe I will hold ArenaNET as accountable as I held Bioware.
When you have the balls to call out every single mmorpg on the market right now and call them out dated and based on old concepts you better not try a cop out excuse that the game is buy to play, so it does not have to compete. If they do that would be the biggest bullshit in mmo history and I hope someone sue's their asses for fraudulent advertising then.
If this does happen then I want public apologies from Massively, Total Biscuit, and G4tv to Blizzard, Trion, and Bioware for the way they have shown clear favoritism to GW2 and crowned it as UO and DAoC 2.0.
TL'DR: They do not get a free pass.