Full Loot Misconceptions

77lolmac77 · February 2012

Now I can completely understand why people dislike full loot. Nobody wants to work on something only to have some jerk swoop in and wipe out anything you might have accomplished.

However, I feel like there's some huge misinformation about full loot games (or more specifically Darkfall)

1: Gear is hard to obtain, therefore losing it is too much of a hassle.

False. Any clan that doesnt have stockpiles of gear in the bank isnt a very good clan. There is no "gear tokens" you have to grind to get something useful, so you cant say it takes longer to get geared than a themepark. All it takes is a couple of friends and a trip to some mobs to find armor.

2. You cannot step foot outside a newb zone without getting ganked

False. Not very many people go after new players for a number of reasons. The number one is that clan gatherers are more valuable targets, and also most players realize that pillaging the starter areas deter away new players. Of course you will have the people who do try to kill newbs, but in my experience there's even more people who try to guide and protect new players, so that they can grow and join their clan.

3. Everyone is already way too powerful and I wont be able to make an impact unless I do months of grinding

True, but I think a lot of people are overlooking this is exactly how Theme Parks work. Nobody makes a character and joins an MC raid that night. It takes time, and depending on how helpful your clan/fiends are, the exact time may vary. However, you dont need to be maxed in all skills to be competitive. Archery in Darkfall is very easy to level, and very useful as many fights involve mounts at some point or another. The only difference between a sandbox grind and a themepark grind is in a themepark you have text saying "do this" and a sandbox just has you fight things. So if you like yawn-filled quests that dont impact the game world and treat you like every other person, I guess themeparks have the edge here.

4. 90% of the playerbase are gankers who have no morals or honor

Totally false, in fact Darkfall has some of the most responsible and honorable people I've ever played with. Between showing good mobs to kill, providing supplies and gear, and just having people to roll with, clans in sandboxes arent just a guild roster and a chat room. They have meaning, and in turn, give a sense of real pride. Think DAOCs realm pride but on a much closer-knit scale. Of course, you may come across enemy clans and get ganked from time to time but that only makes it that much sweeter when you raid their city.

5. The genre is just a niche and will never be more than that

Well nobody can truly know if this is true or not but with attitudes like that of course it will be true. Look at EVE online, that game has 300k+ subs and doesnt even have WASD movement or avatars. If a game was made like Darkfall but with EVE's 0.0 and high sec system it would be the best sandbox by a large margin IMO.

Now that's not to say Darkfall doesnt have its fair share of problems. But what game is perfect? WoW? Nope. SWTOR? God no. GW2? Depends who you ask even though its barely in beta. But seriously, if Darkfall 2.0 ever comes out, I'm there in a heartbeat, and hopefully anyone who doesn't blindly believe anything on these forums will be too.

Or just keep playing the theme park of the month, doing the same things every day as every other player so you can get +6 more stamina to be able to kill the next boss who gives +10 stamina

*edited for the eyes*

StonesDK · February 2012

Originally posted by 77lolmac77
Now I can completely understand why people dislike full loot. Nobody wants to work on something only to have some jerk swoop in and wipe out anything you might have accomplished.

However, I feel like there's some huge misinformation about full loot games (or more specifically Darkfall)

1: Gear is hard to obtain, therefore losing it is too much of a hassle.

False..

People complaining about losing gear is not concerned about if it's easy to obtain or not. They simply like to keep their gear without having to go out and obtaining it again regardless of how easy it is. They are programmed with gear progression and full loot is counter intuitive to that

2. You cannot step foot outside a newb zone without getting ganked

False.

Even if it's only 15% playerbase that does this or even 5 - 10% it's enough to be very disruptive. It only takes 1 person to make the lives of 10+ players miserable

3. Everyone is already way too powerful and I wont be able to make an impact unless I do months of grinding

True, but I think a lot of people are overlooking this is exactly how Theme Parks work.

In a themepark you only care about your own progression. You don't have others wiping the floor with you while you progress

4. 90% of the playerbase are gankers who have no morals or honor

Totally false,

Again it doesn't take more than a handful of people. It doesn't have to be a 1:1 ratio to be disruptive to the new player

5. The genre is just a niche and will never be more than that

Well nobody can truly know if this is true or not but with attitudes like that of course it will be true. Look at EVE online, that game has 300k+ subs and doesnt even have WASD movement or avatars. If a game was made like Darkfall but with EVE's 0.0 and high sec system it would be the best sandbox by a large margin IMO.

EvE is a space MMO that allows you to fly around in a spaceship. It fills out a corner of the MMO market based on that alone. It has no competition

Classicstar · February 2012

1. Crafting is not that hard to pick up and soon you have enough gear on your bank so losing it is not a big deal as most think in Darkfall.

2. World is also so big there so many places you could go and grind mobs or do some quests many ways as a newbee to survive easy. But its a free for all full loot hardcore pvp game so dont whine about being ganked ok:P

3. False ive made few months back a free trial account with newbee that had nothing i did few quest so got some newbee armor weapons from starter mobs and quest and trvel all the way to YSSAM bind in tolenque a evil city where blueones and reds can bind no towers. its high skill lvl island but it still have metal mines bushes trees stone rocks fishing you can do and craft i waited my change to sneaky kill players one guy at the bank there was it seems afk i had my goblin axe and started hack him to pieces and i killed him had some nice crafting stuff and some rank 50 gear.

I roam the island fought also some newbees there was few times killed and won few times i ended up with nice bank full of stuff and had blast as newbee on YSSAM.

Its up to you go have fun or not its bullshit you need to macro first 6 months before you even can do something thats oh so FALSE.

4. Indeed false ive met all over the place players who not only spare your life sometimes they even wanne help you ive met more nice people in this game then all those years in stupid themeparks hehe Many have indeed Honor reason. But again if your pked dont whine or cry thats how game works if you dont like it dont play it.

5. Its maybe niche but as intended for years we fans and devs knew it would attrack a small community but game should have more players if people just give it a chance its worth your money its not as bad as many saying(btw most never played the game they just hate hardcore pvp games).

Just try game its a great game it screams Exploring huge open world with total freedom ala SKYRIM only sometimes nasty players that are after your conent in your backpack and gear you wear but if you play it smart it won't happen alot and easy to replace.

Jakdstripper · February 2012

the biggest problem most people have with DF is that pvp is forced onto you, and 99% of the time by somebody you have little or no chance to win against.

on top of being forced to pvp against your will, when you die you loose all your stuff that you probably spent many hours gathering. this is just too much for the majority of people. being forced to fight an equal is annoying enough, but being forced to fight when you know you have no chance is un acceptable for most players.

it's like if you go to a dojo to learn martial arts and after showing you one move they put you in a cage with a ninja.....99% of people will not go back, EVER.

DF would gain a lot of people by having a "high sec" part of the map. it's not like they dont have the space. then again it was made for the hardcores. perhaps they dont want anyone else. in any group the hardcores are always very few.

Classicstar · February 2012

Originally posted by Starpower

Originally posted by 77lolmac77
Now I can completely understand why people dislike full loot. Nobody wants to work on something only to have some jerk swoop in and wipe out anything you might have accomplished.
However, I feel like there's some huge misinformation about full loot games (or more specifically Darkfall)

1: Gear is hard to obtain, therefore losing it is too much of a hassle.
False..
People complaining about losing gear is not concerned about if it's easy to obtain or not. They simply like to keep their gear without having to go out and obtaining it again regardless of how easy it is. They are programmed with gear progression and full loot is counter intuitive to that
2. You cannot step foot outside a newb zone without getting ganked
False.
Even if it's only 15% playerbase that does this or even 5 - 10% it's enough to be very disruptive. It only takes 1 person to make the lives of 10+ players miserable

3. Everyone is already way too powerful and I wont be able to make an impact unless I do months of grinding
True, but I think a lot of people are overlooking this is exactly how Theme Parks work.
In a themepark you only care about your own progression. You don't have others wiping the floor with you while you progress

4. 90% of the playerbase are gankers who have no morals or honor
Totally false,
Again it doesn't take more than a handful of people. It doesn't have to be a 1:1 ratio to be disruptive to the new player
5. The genre is just a niche and will never be more than that
Well nobody can truly know if this is true or not but with attitudes like that of course it will be true. Look at EVE online, that game has 300k+ subs and doesnt even have WASD movement or avatars. If a game was made like Darkfall but with EVE's 0.0 and high sec system it would be the best sandbox by a large margin IMO.
EvE is a space MMO that allows you to fly around in a spaceship. It fills out a corner of the MMO market based on that alone. It has no competition

1.Where not asking for those people who want there precious gear and keep it for eternity. There 100% themepark players who also cry and whine when they ganked or someone steal there mobs these are guys who play 24/7 in instance to be safe where not talking about them so False.

2. Also very False this game is not your avarage themepark its a huge open world where in no way you can grief people constantly there plenty of ways to avoid that, unless players making constantly same mistakes well then its your own fault hehe.

3. But those people also dont choose playing Darkfall and if im correct OP is not talking about them.

4. Why are any players disruptive if you choose to play a game like Darkfall, thats how games like Darkfall works take or leave it its as simple as that. Where not looking for people who wanne be safe game is not intended for them it never has sinds they started the idea about darkfall.

5. This point i have to agree with you it dont have any competion as spacegame with free for all pvp and full loot you can't compare Darkfall with EVE Darkfall have about thousend games to comepete with becouse of Fantasy settings ala tolkien world with orks dwarfs elfs and dragons.

Classicstar · February 2012

Originally posted by Jakdstripper
the biggest problem most people have with DF is that pvp is forced onto you, and 99% of the time by somebody you have little or no chance to win against.
on top of being forced to pvp against your will, when you die you loose all your stuff that you probably spent many hours gathering. this is just too much for the majority of people. being forced to fight an equal is annoying enough, but being forced to fight when you know you have no chance is un acceptable for most players.

DF would gain a lot of people by having a "high sec" part of the map. it's not like they dont have the space. then again it was made for the hardcores. perhaps they dont want anyone else. in any group the hardcores are always very few.

Without determination no will to have fun no immagination no survival instinct at all no adventures urge doing something no self esteem no faith no nerves and you want safezones and game hold your hand yes indeed game is not for you:P

Again as so many your so wrong about how Darkfall is unless you lack all i mention above then yes game is not for those people.

Whole purpose of game would be lost if Darkfall gets a large area as safezones, its already way to much dumb down to cater carebears, devs became also weak maybe who knows with DF 2.0 your wishes come true and Darkfall is playble for every hardcore carebear:P

Jakdstripper · February 2012

there is nothign wrong with DF. it's one of the very few hard core games with a very punishing death mechanic that rewards those that grind the most.

what you fail to understand is that the hard core full loot gamers are, and always will be, few. as long as you are happy with that then life in DF is grand.

if, on the other hand, you want a lot more people in the game then things have to change. you can't have it both ways.

Jupsto · February 2012

even though I agree i think this post is a bit of a waste of time cause darkfall (at least eu server) is dead at the moment.

most people waiting for darkfall 2.0, and it could be a VERY different game. so alot of things could be very different, like new player protection will be.

Kyleran · February 2012

Originally posted by Jakdstripper
there is nothign wrong with DF. it's one of the very few hard core games with a very punishing death mechanic that rewards those that grind the most.

what you fail to understand is that the hard core full loot gamers are, and always will be, few. as long as you are happy with that then life in DF is grand.

if, on the other hand, you want a lot more people in the game then things have to change. you can't have it both ways.

And what most hardcore full loot gamers fail to grasp is that they need carebears to prey on, they don't really enjoy attacking each other. (what predator does really?)

The folks at CCP understand this and do a great job of catering to both mindsets, hunter and prey, and both types of players are able to find a comfortable niche within the game world.

In a game like DF, there's no room for the builder/gatherer types, therefore they'll take their dollars and go elsewhere.

In the end the Wolves need the Sheep, but not the other way around.

Mors.Magne · February 2012

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by Jakdstripper
there is nothign wrong with DF. it's one of the very few hard core games with a very punishing death mechanic that rewards those that grind the most.

what you fail to understand is that the hard core full loot gamers are, and always will be, few. as long as you are happy with that then life in DF is grand.

if, on the other hand, you want a lot more people in the game then things have to change. you can't have it both ways.

And what most hardcore full loot gamers fail to grasp is that they need carebears to prey on, they don't really enjoy attacking each other. (what predator does really?)

The folks at CCP understand this and do a great job of catering to both mindsets, hunter and prey, and both types of players are able to find a comfortable niche within the game world.

In a game like DF, there's no room for the builder/gatherer types, therefore they'll take their dollars and go elsewhere.

In the end the Wolves need the Sheep, but not the other way around.

Well, I was quite happy being the 'prey' in DF - I enjoyed doing PvE and turned the environment sound to max so I could hear people approaching.

However, I left because of the impending server wipe - I can't stand the Sword of Damocles over my head.

tom_gore · February 2012

Originally posted by 77lolmac77
5. The genre is just a niche and will never be more than that

Well nobody can truly know if this is true or not but with attitudes like that of course it will be true. Look at EVE online, that game has 300k+ subs and doesnt even have WASD movement or avatars. If a game was made like Darkfall but with EVE's 0.0 and high sec system it would be the best sandbox by a large margin IMO.

Sadly, such game does not exist nor does it look like anyone's making such game at the moment.

ArcheAge probably comes closest, but even it does not have full loot or FPS combat.

Mors.Magne · February 2012

Originally posted by tom_gore

Originally posted by 77lolmac77
5. The genre is just a niche and will never be more than that

Well nobody can truly know if this is true or not but with attitudes like that of course it will be true. Look at EVE online, that game has 300k+ subs and doesnt even have WASD movement or avatars. If a game was made like Darkfall but with EVE's 0.0 and high sec system it would be the best sandbox by a large margin IMO.

Sadly, such game does not exist nor does it look like anyone's making such game at the moment.

ArcheAge probably comes closest, but even it does not have full loot or FPS combat.

Actually, there is game similar to Eve but on the ground - it's Perpetuum. However, one of the problems with Perpetuum is how long it takes to travel, which would still exist if it were a fantasy setting instead.

SEANMCAD · February 2012

The thing about darkfall specifically is that its hard to resolve the two complaints from players who leave.

1. not enough people to pvp.

2. gankers everywhere.

The two realities can not exist together.

The spread between vet and noob in Darkfall is actually less than any other MMO I am aware of. that said, it takes longer to become a vet in darkfall but never the less. I think 11pnt of damage is what you get with a bow on day 1. You will be lucky if you ever get to handle out 50pnts(ish) of damage with any bow in your darkfall lifetime.

username509 · February 2012

OP I like the way you think.

I agree 100%.

nariusseldon · February 2012

Originally posted by Mors.Magne

Well, I was quite happy being the 'prey' in DF - I enjoyed doing PvE and turned the environment sound to max so I could hear people approaching.

However, I left because of the impending server wipe - I can't stand the Sword of Damocles over my head.

And i am not. No fun in just being a sheep. Much more fun for ME .. to just PvE and co-op with others in peace.

maplestone · February 2012

It only takes one bad apple to spoil the barrel.

Valhama · February 2012

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Mors.Magne

Well, I was quite happy being the 'prey' in DF - I enjoyed doing PvE and turned the environment sound to max so I could hear people approaching.

However, I left because of the impending server wipe - I can't stand the Sword of Damocles over my head.

And i am not. No fun in just being a sheep. Much more fun for ME .. to just PvE and co-op with others in peace.

And I will never understand this mentality. It's so BORING without any sense of danger. There's nothing forcing you to be on alert constantly, to play smart, adapt to your environment and community in order to survive. You just play. Perfectly safe, all the time.

It's just dull to me.

And this is coming from a crafter at heart. I like combat, a bit, but building is where my heart lies. When I fight, it would be against evil players, not to grief. Yet I absolutely crave a true hardcore sandbox game. More than I could express. I just wish more people did too. It's no fun being in a minority without even the slightest hint that what you want is even being conceived of seriously.

nariusseldon · February 2012

Originally posted by Valhama

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Mors.Magne

Well, I was quite happy being the 'prey' in DF - I enjoyed doing PvE and turned the environment sound to max so I could hear people approaching.

However, I left because of the impending server wipe - I can't stand the Sword of Damocles over my head.

And i am not. No fun in just being a sheep. Much more fun for ME .. to just PvE and co-op with others in peace.

And I will never understand this mentality. It's so BORING without any sense of danger. There's nothing forcing you to be on alert constantly, to play smart, adapt to your environment and community in order to survive. You just play. Perfectly safe, all the time.

It's just dull to me.

And this is coming from a crafter at heart. I like combat, a bit, but building is where my heart lies. When I fight, it would be against evil players, not to grief. Yet I absolutely crave a true hardcore sandbox game. More than I could express. I just wish more people did too. It's no fun being in a minority without even the slightest hint that what you want is even being conceived of seriously.

Dull for you .. fun for millions others.

Sure, it is quite clear you do NOT understand FUN for others. Now we have established that.

Progression is fun. Overcoming PvE challenge is fun. Heck, people have fun going through SINGLE PLAYER CAMPAIGN with practically no danger and instant reload.

So now you do not understand the milions of players who play FPS single player campaign too?

Suraknar · February 2012

Originally posted by 77lolmac77

However, I feel like there's some huge misinformation about full loot games (or more specifically Darkfall)

1: Gear is hard to obtain, therefore losing it is too much of a hassle.

False. Any clan that doesnt have stockpiles of gear in the bank isnt a very good clan. There is no "gear tokens" you have to grind to get something useful, so you cant say it takes longer to get geared than a themepark. All it takes is a couple of friends and a trip to some mobs to find armor.

So how ablout a New clan that just starts Darkfall today? Will they have stockpiles of Armor in their bank from day one? Isn't it presumptious and outright flawed to dismiss this clan as a "not very good clan". You canot judge a clan just by looking at what they have in their bank.

Second, the Trip to the mobs usually ends up in an ambush and all the armor gathered in the last hour or two Looted. It is a never ending cycle in that game.

Because the ambushers also know where people will go to get armor, and they will go ambush people there.

2. You cannot step foot outside a newb zone without getting ganked

False. Not very many people go after new players for a number of reasons. The number one is that clan gatherers are more valuable targets, and also most players realize that pillaging the starter areas deter away new players. Of course you will have the people who do try to kill newbs, but in my experience there's even more people who try to guide and protect new players, so that they can grow and join their clan.

Oh yes it is true, at least, when the game was actually populated. Now I am guessing some people do realise that there is no one left to gank so they try to stay away from newbies. But that is only an effect not a cause of the issue. The cause is flawed design. Darkfall lost its bet from the first day it launched because it was made for 1000 year old Vikings...Live or Die ...well guess what...your players are all Dead (they quit the game)..don't cry about it now.

3. Everyone is already way too powerful and I wont be able to make an impact unless I do months of grinding

True, but I think a lot of people are overlooking this is exactly how Theme Parks work. Nobody makes a character and joins an MC raid that night. It takes time, and depending on how helpful your clan/fiends are, the exact time may vary. However, you dont need to be maxed in all skills to be competitive. Archery in Darkfall is very easy to level, and very useful as many fights involve mounts at some point or another. The only difference between a sandbox grind and a themepark grind is in a themepark you have text saying "do this" and a sandbox just has you fight things. So if you like yawn-filled quests that dont impact the game world and treat you like every other person, I guess themeparks have the edge here.

Heh, interesting attempt at making people feel some kind of guilt here. Ina themepark, you do not lose your gear, you accumulate it as you progress. Second most themepark progression is individual, it doe snot matter how high other people are all that matters is your level and where you are. No one can interfear with your character progression so there is no ned to catch up fast etc etc.

In Darkfall, stronger characters can make your life a living hell, and you can;t do anything about it so in order to be able to go as you say in #1 to gather armor, or mine Metal or Gold you have to be able to stand your ground against the ambushers..but you cannot do that in Darkfall before months...so no metal no armor no gold...only grind.

As I said, the design is flawed, always has been, there is no hope for that game plus 1st person FPS for such a game is not everyone's cup of tea...a 16 year old can have great hand eye coordination but any 30+ year old will have hard time compeeting, so the target audiance of the game is the people who have no job and no money of their own. Maybe if Darkfall was F2P it would see more people in it. But for now it is niche because it appeals to people who cannot afford a Sub consistently.

4. 90% of the playerbase are gankers who have no morals or honor

Totally false, in fact Darkfall has some of the most responsible and honorable people I've ever played with. Between showing good mobs to kill, providing supplies and gear, and just having people to roll with, clans in sandboxes arent just a guild roster and a chat room. They have meaning, and in turn, give a sense of real pride. Think DAOCs realm pride but on a much closer-knit scale. Of course, you may come across enemy clans and get ganked from time to time but that only makes it that much sweeter when you raid their city.

Ok so it does have some adult people playin it acting as moral guides. But the majority are kids who just want to have fun fighting one another.

In reality it is not about morals, even if that is the immage that isprojected, in reality it is about age differential. teenagers see ths as an arcade game, and it is fun to fight and kill one another, it is fun to one shot a miner and get his ore, it is fun to one shot a guy fighting with three other mobs, and it is fun to declare war to a newbie guild and gank their members in towns while they are trying to make some armor or raise some of their skills to be able to enjoy the game like others.

The problem is that the game design did not take this under account when the game was being built, so it is possible to gank people in towns because it is possible to declar war to any guild as you please, therefore there is no safety whatsoever for people to get to learn the game in the first place, devellop a buffer, some armors in bank for thos etiomes when you lose armors etc...there is none of that the game has been designed with Brutality in mind and lost its players in the process.

5. The genre is just a niche and will never be more than that

Well nobody can truly know if this is true or not but with attitudes like that of course it will be true. Look at EVE online, that game has 300k+ subs and doesnt even have WASD movement or avatars. If a game was made like Darkfall but with EVE's 0.0 and high sec system it would be the best sandbox by a large margin IMO.

Should be F2P, then it will have some more people...it is niche because it is designed for the niche of Teenagers that can afford it.

Now that's not to say Darkfall doesnt have its fair share of problems. But what game is perfect? WoW? Nope. SWTOR? God no. GW2? Depends who you ask even though its barely in beta. But seriously, if Darkfall 2.0 ever comes out, I'm there in a heartbeat, and hopefully anyone who doesn't blindly believe anything on these forums will be too.

Or just keep playing the theme park of the month, doing the same things every day as every other player so you can get +6 more stamina to be able to kill the next boss who gives +10 stamina

*edited for the eyes*

I do not appreciate Themeparks (the only one I wil give a try is going to be GW2), but I do not appreciate Badly made Sandboxes either. Darkfall proved that just because a game is Hyped to be Sandbox it does not mean that the game is fun and enjoyable. My biggest disapointment is that it was hyped to be like UO, or a spiritual successor to it, and that is far from being the truth. The mind that made UO and the Mind that made Darkfall are diametrically opposed. It will never be like UO.

In conclusion while, I do not like Darkfall, its design or its Spirit, this does not mean that it cannot be fun for some. But please, do not try to justify Darkfall's flaws by suggesting that the problem is our perception of things.

And by God tell Tasos to think making it F2P, it appeals to teenagers more than adults with its full twitch FPS style as a game but it is no fun to anyone when it is deserted and devoid of player life.

May the Virtues shine upon thine path!

laokoko · February 2012

I actually played darkfall. For maybe 2 weeks. Gear isn't easy to come by, I get ganked, I farm for 2 hours and get everything taken from me including my mount, and I quit. And I get gank in newbee area.

The problem I have with that game is I can't kill shit in PvE. PvE is too hard, it's not even the PvP. All you do is bot to increase skill. Maybe that's not how it is now, but that's how it is when the game start.

It's just not for me. The way I look at it, is if you want to play, go play it, if you don't you don't. I have no misconception with full loot system, I actually played it, and don't like it.

ThemePork · February 2012

Originally posted by Jakdstripper
there is nothign wrong with DF. it's one of the very few hard core games with a very punishing death mechanic that rewards those that grind the most.

what you fail to understand is that the hard core full loot gamers are, and always will be, few. as long as you are happy with that then life in DF is grand.

if, on the other hand, you want a lot more people in the game then things have to change. you can't have it both ways.

You only need one full server to enjoy a MMO. Having 50 full servers doesn't affect your gaming experience in the slightest. (granted most of these indie sandboxes can't even pull off 1 full server, that's a shame but it's mostly due to the low quality of their game, not the sandbox nature of the game).

Yes more players equals more revenue and usually that money gets reinjected into the game, that's obviously a plus but on the flip side, precarious working conditions for the devs garantees they'll be working double time and will try to pull off some bold moves, unlike the lazy devs at Blizzard, for example, falling a sleep at their desks instead of working hard on how to improve their game.

maplestone · February 2012

Originally posted by Valhama

And I will never understand this mentality.

Just out of curiousity, are you serious? I mean people say this, but I always assume they are just trolling. I guess this is a sort of pointless question because there really isn't an answer you can provide that I'll believe.

ThemePork · February 2012

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Valhama

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Mors.Magne

Well, I was quite happy being the 'prey' in DF - I enjoyed doing PvE and turned the environment sound to max so I could hear people approaching.

However, I left because of the impending server wipe - I can't stand the Sword of Damocles over my head.

And i am not. No fun in just being a sheep. Much more fun for ME .. to just PvE and co-op with others in peace.

And I will never understand this mentality. It's so BORING without any sense of danger. There's nothing forcing you to be on alert constantly, to play smart, adapt to your environment and community in order to survive. You just play. Perfectly safe, all the time.

It's just dull to me.

And this is coming from a crafter at heart. I like combat, a bit, but building is where my heart lies. When I fight, it would be against evil players, not to grief. Yet I absolutely crave a true hardcore sandbox game. More than I could express. I just wish more people did too. It's no fun being in a minority without even the slightest hint that what you want is even being conceived of seriously.

Dull for you .. fun for millions others.

Sure, it is quite clear you do NOT understand FUN for others. Now we have established that.

Progression is fun. Overcoming PvE challenge is fun. Heck, people have fun going through SINGLE PLAYER CAMPAIGN with practically no danger and instant reload.

So now you do not understand the milions of players who play FPS single player campaign too?

Man...is that how you get satisfaction out of life? By knowing that you share the same tastes as all the other sheep?

People keep bringing this up, because something is more popular, then it has to be far superior.

Generally speaking it's the exact opposite that's true, culture (and by extension entertainment) always declines when it becomes "mainstream". It has happened in all forms of art and entertainment in recent centuries.

Popularity is not an indicator of quality.

Humanity is by nature lazy and selfish, when you cater to those traits is when you achieve popularity.

Suraknar · February 2012

Originally posted by Charas

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Valhama

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Mors.Magne

Well, I was quite happy being the 'prey' in DF - I enjoyed doing PvE and turned the environment sound to max so I could hear people approaching.

However, I left because of the impending server wipe - I can't stand the Sword of Damocles over my head.

And i am not. No fun in just being a sheep. Much more fun for ME .. to just PvE and co-op with others in peace.

And I will never understand this mentality. It's so BORING without any sense of danger. There's nothing forcing you to be on alert constantly, to play smart, adapt to your environment and community in order to survive. You just play. Perfectly safe, all the time.

It's just dull to me.

And this is coming from a crafter at heart. I like combat, a bit, but building is where my heart lies. When I fight, it would be against evil players, not to grief. Yet I absolutely crave a true hardcore sandbox game. More than I could express. I just wish more people did too. It's no fun being in a minority without even the slightest hint that what you want is even being conceived of seriously.

Dull for you .. fun for millions others.

Sure, it is quite clear you do NOT understand FUN for others. Now we have established that.

Progression is fun. Overcoming PvE challenge is fun. Heck, people have fun going through SINGLE PLAYER CAMPAIGN with practically no danger and instant reload.

So now you do not understand the milions of players who play FPS single player campaign too?

Man...is that how you get satisfaction out of life? By knowing that you share the same tastes as all the other sheep?

People keep bringing this up, because something is more popular, then it has to be far superior.

Generally speaking it's the exact opposite that's true, culture (and by extension entertainment) always declines when it becomes "mainstream". It has happened in all forms of art and entertainment in recent centuries.

Popularity is not an indicator of quality.

Humanity is by nature lazy and selfish, when you cater to those traits is when you achieve popularity.

But how do you generally decide what game represents quality or not?

I mean think about it, when you go out to buy anthing that yu may need, a TV, a Razor, a Gaming Console etc, how do you make your decision qhat are you looking for as information to help you in that decision?

TruthXHurts · February 2012

Originally posted by Suraknar

Originally posted by Charas

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Valhama

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Mors.Magne

Well, I was quite happy being the 'prey' in DF - I enjoyed doing PvE and turned the environment sound to max so I could hear people approaching.

However, I left because of the impending server wipe - I can't stand the Sword of Damocles over my head.

And i am not. No fun in just being a sheep. Much more fun for ME .. to just PvE and co-op with others in peace.

And I will never understand this mentality. It's so BORING without any sense of danger. There's nothing forcing you to be on alert constantly, to play smart, adapt to your environment and community in order to survive. You just play. Perfectly safe, all the time.

It's just dull to me.

And this is coming from a crafter at heart. I like combat, a bit, but building is where my heart lies. When I fight, it would be against evil players, not to grief. Yet I absolutely crave a true hardcore sandbox game. More than I could express. I just wish more people did too. It's no fun being in a minority without even the slightest hint that what you want is even being conceived of seriously.

Dull for you .. fun for millions others.

Sure, it is quite clear you do NOT understand FUN for others. Now we have established that.

Progression is fun. Overcoming PvE challenge is fun. Heck, people have fun going through SINGLE PLAYER CAMPAIGN with practically no danger and instant reload.

So now you do not understand the milions of players who play FPS single player campaign too?

Man...is that how you get satisfaction out of life? By knowing that you share the same tastes as all the other sheep?

People keep bringing this up, because something is more popular, then it has to be far superior.

Generally speaking it's the exact opposite that's true, culture (and by extension entertainment) always declines when it becomes "mainstream". It has happened in all forms of art and entertainment in recent centuries.

Popularity is not an indicator of quality.

Humanity is by nature lazy and selfish, when you cater to those traits is when you achieve popularity.

But how do you generally decide what game represents quality or not?

I mean think about it, when you go out to buy anthing that yu may need, a TV, a Razor, a Gaming Console etc, how do you make your decision qhat are you looking for as information to help you in that decision?

I may be completely wrong about this, but I bet there aren't such heated debates on the Gillete site regarding electric or traditional razors.

I also doubt that the traditional razor camp is trying to deny the electric razor camps right to exist, and have further developments made because their type of razor is not the most popular.

Suraknar · February 2012

Originally posted by TruthXHurts

Originally posted by Suraknar

Originally posted by Charas

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Valhama

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Mors.Magne

Well, I was quite happy being the 'prey' in DF - I enjoyed doing PvE and turned the environment sound to max so I could hear people approaching.

However, I left because of the impending server wipe - I can't stand the Sword of Damocles over my head.

And i am not. No fun in just being a sheep. Much more fun for ME .. to just PvE and co-op with others in peace.

And I will never understand this mentality. It's so BORING without any sense of danger. There's nothing forcing you to be on alert constantly, to play smart, adapt to your environment and community in order to survive. You just play. Perfectly safe, all the time.

It's just dull to me.

And this is coming from a crafter at heart. I like combat, a bit, but building is where my heart lies. When I fight, it would be against evil players, not to grief. Yet I absolutely crave a true hardcore sandbox game. More than I could express. I just wish more people did too. It's no fun being in a minority without even the slightest hint that what you want is even being conceived of seriously.

Dull for you .. fun for millions others.

Sure, it is quite clear you do NOT understand FUN for others. Now we have established that.

Progression is fun. Overcoming PvE challenge is fun. Heck, people have fun going through SINGLE PLAYER CAMPAIGN with practically no danger and instant reload.

So now you do not understand the milions of players who play FPS single player campaign too?

Man...is that how you get satisfaction out of life? By knowing that you share the same tastes as all the other sheep?

People keep bringing this up, because something is more popular, then it has to be far superior.

Generally speaking it's the exact opposite that's true, culture (and by extension entertainment) always declines when it becomes "mainstream". It has happened in all forms of art and entertainment in recent centuries.

Popularity is not an indicator of quality.

Humanity is by nature lazy and selfish, when you cater to those traits is when you achieve popularity.

But how do you generally decide what game represents quality or not?

I mean think about it, when you go out to buy anthing that yu may need, a TV, a Razor, a Gaming Console etc, how do you make your decision qhat are you looking for as information to help you in that decision?

I may be completely wrong about this, but I bet there aren't such heated debates on the Gillete site regarding electric or traditional razors.

I also doubt that the traditional razor camp is trying to deny the electric razor camps right to exist, and have further developments made because their type of razor is not the most popular.

It does not have to be heated debates, but in this age there is certainly feedback from customers, but lets not divert from the question shall we?

I asked Charas, assuming that he is an adult that may have done purchasses of something in his life, to explain how he goes about choosing product A versus product B. How does he determine that product A is of better quality than Product B?

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Full Loot Misconceptions

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Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV