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My grain of salt
Hopfrog
Member Posts: 90
Seems GW2 is getting universal praise from the gaming press who had a chance to play beta.
Don't get me wrong. I am strongly rooting for GW2 and hope that the press is giving us true reasons to be hopeful.
Buuuuuut........ I take it with a grain of salt because it wasn't very long ago that the press was almost universally gushing over another product that didn't quite match the reception from the public..... SWTOR
Yes, I know many are having a good time in SWTOR, but there has been enough (quite a lot) of criticism levied from the MMO community to put 'press gush' into modern perspective. Now whether the MMO community has become overly critical (a fair challenge), may be a matter of opinion, but from my perspective I think a lot of us are waiting for that 'next big thing', and I would agree with most of my more cynical compadres in that no one has delivered that 'next big thing' in 7 years...
and I will also add.... I think it is still possible for someone to deliver.. hopefully, for quite a few developers to deliver, in the next couple of years.
Not saying I am discounting the hype.... just taking it with a grain of salt.
Comments
actually many press ragged on SWTOR before release but those ppl like ppl here were drowned out by fanboi's insulting us. I nearly gave up on this site after how I was treated for pointing out many of the issues that those same fanbois now agree with. Bottom line.. watch the videos, make your OWN decision on whether it looks good to you. Hell play GW1 at least then you know sorta what the game will be like. Many of the abilities, mechanics and mentality is there already.
*edit* fixed those typos ppl wanna focus on =P and bolded my statement so that ppl can read it better.. somehow those 5 words were difficult. Please no more lists of why they are different.. We know what is different!
Yeah, I thought the reviews for SWTOR were actually quite measured and didn't mislead about the meat of the game, which was a pretty polished story-heavy game remniscent of the kind of mechanics someone who's played WoW would be very familiar with, oh, and it feels very Star Warsy if you like that sort of thing. People talked about caring about their characters more than they had in any other MMO, and feeling like their choices mattered, but that was the extent (if I recall correctly) of the high praise.
GW2's praise in reviews seems to be much more broadly cast, and more in the awe/exploration/immersion/scale departments, though it doesn't seem people ventured far into the personal story for comparison with SWTOR (or it didn't compare as favorably on that front, which is understandable given that's Bioware's ballywick; second place to Bioware in storytelling isn't a bad spot to be in)
I guess if you're wondering if the press is just in everybody's pocket regardless of the quality of the game, the best solution would be to dig up the first videos after SWTOR's press embargo was lifted, and compare to GW2's from this week.
There may not have been a lot press hating SWTOR, but not very many praised it for being exceptional either. Just about every press said the game was good, not very many said it was going to be above and beyond.
Another difference that people seem to forget is that more player had played Guild Wars 2 than SWTOR up until SWTOR launched.
It is always good to backup your claims. What press? what fanbois insult? lets not use blanket statements here please. The press coverage for SWTOR was as positive as GW2, unless GW2 opens up to players for extensive gameplay... well press is just press. They are just doing their job.
Bite Me
Almost all press was clear that it was basically WoW with lightsabers and story.
SWTOR story can not last forever, and quite alot of it was front loaded on quality. Press only got a short bit to play, and none of it was end game.
GW2 on the other hand, while it is true that they only saw the first third or so of areas and for only one weekend, the actual gameplay took center stage and that lasts for the entire game.
Also the biggest thing is that GW2 "end game" was on display, WvW and PvP is GW2 end game and everyone had the chance to play it and every one that did raved about it.
Now could the later areas have horrible DE? Possibly, but the quality of early DE would lead to the conclusion that the rest are of similar quality. The quests of SWTOR were "bad" from the very beginning only the cutscenes were good. Also the big story line becomes less and less a factor and more and more pointless running around happens where as DE are the meat of GW2 all the way through.
I would love to see the end game DE, and end game dungeons, but GW2 has actual good gameplay to back them up.
Well, here are a couple examples:
IGN: "That said, a lot of The Old Republic feels very safe, sticking to things that have worked for other games in the past, and rarely attempting anything new or experimental."
IGN: "There's so much to Guild Wars 2 – from huge-scale world versus world capture point contests that provide global bonuses to all on a server, even those not participating, to smaller PvP arenas to stylish main storyline quests complete with character interaction and voiced dialogue to structured dungeon encounters – that it's difficult to be anything but giddy about the game's potential."
MMORPG.com: "Before arriving on Coruscant, I traveled to the Carrick space station in the midst of the Republic fleet. This is the Republic social hub shown off during the TOR main panel at New York Comic-Con last week. The station is indeed filled with vendors, a cantina, class and crafting trainers, and a jump off point to launch Flashpoints. It was a pretty neat spot, but felt sort of inorganic. It almost felt like a bit of a shopping mall in space. Everything is neatly placed and organized in an intelligent and convenient fashion, which is great for gameplay purposes but really not much else."
MMORPG.com: "You will get lost in GW2. You will find yourself wandering to see what’s beyond a hill, or what lies in that cave where the growling is echoing from. You will start off helping a scholar discover what’s causing ice wyrms to behave oddly only to see it lead to a tale of corrupted winter wildlife caused by an evil Svanir shaman. Something simple will turn into a massive event that involves ice demon portals, blizzards, and one of the hairiest boss fights you’ve ever experienced… at level 12. You’ll help the Charr fight back the ghosts of Ascalon deep in the crypts of what used to be the human city, and you’ll take on Duke Barradin himself as he possesses a massive stone statue… at level one."
Like I said, the reviews for SWTOR are positive, even hopeful and excited, but measured, whereas GW2 seems to be sending people into another tier of ecstasy. I'd be skeptical of it myself if I hadn't played hours of it in demo and seen it in action with my own eyes, but the two sets of reviews aren't really echoing each other if you go back and look at what most reviews were actually saying about SWTOR. And yes, there were certainly reviewers who loved SWTOR going in and their reviews reflected that, just as there are reviewers who loved GW2 going in and their reviews reflect that as well.
I would aggree with you to the extent that you should not expect to like a game simply because someone else likes a game. Most of us are individuals with individual tastes. That said you should more look for reviewers that have the same tastes that you do and pay attention to what they say.
Most reviews are worth reading in that they all have usefull information in them. Even if you know the reviewer is in the bag for a particular game or company there will still be details on how the game plays and what the content is. It is still up to the individual to determine if a games playstyle matches their own.
What I look for in reviews is the reporting of how buggy a game might be, the general advancement mechanics, type of content and whether there are any features new to the genre or have been upgraded from previous games.
Examples for GW2:
Graphics - Unknown - subjective to the individual - should be at least average compared to a normal AAA title.
Game play - No quests , few dungeons - main advancement is through doing public style quests(automatic gain/complete by entering area) and quest chains and killing mobs - alternative advancement through pvp (both world pvp and battleground type pvp)
Gear - mostly cosmetic with some power boost - perhaps 10 to 25%? mostly unknown. The ability to transfer stats from one item to another so your not tied to a specific look or piece of gear.
Crafting - Generic - nothing special or unique. Limited to two crafting skills per character - if you want to master you will either have to trade or roll a bunch of alts(if possible).
Combat - more visual than past games with clues as to how to act and react based off of visual effects. Somewhat improved over standard combat. Skills based off of weapon type/class type with a few non weapon based skills. You can collect a large number of skills but limited to 7 or 8 at a given moment in time. The ability to chain different skills together for added effects. Combat likely to be somewhat fast paced and chaotic.
This is all information I have gleaned just from reading different reviews about the game. There is enough in there for me to know wether this game is definately not for me - I might like it - or I will probably love it.
So its not as much about whether a reviewer is hyped about a game, but rather do they have any usefull information about the game and does that information match up with other peoples impressions/information.
For me I will probably enjoy the game based off of the Dynamic event questing system - the skill system for combat and the WvWvW pvp .
I will probably find the small number of dungeons a minus and the focus away from raid style pve a minus. The Dynamic event system is still questionable as to how well they pull it off and wether it will get boring in the end. I will likely buy the game and if they DE system is good I wll play it through - if not I will probably drop it. Lack of sub cost is a big bonus though so who knows.
I marked the part I wanted to comment: no, playing GW1 will not make you "sorta" know what GW2 will be like. The differences are too tremendous for that to work.
Comparing SWTOR hype with GW2? LOL
SWTOR is not even on the 2nd place in mmorpg hype ranking while gw2 is leading the 2nd place by a huge margin
Er? Every single last 'big' review site/magazine gave it a 9/10. How is that not praising it as exceptional?
I guess the ratings number is thier lunch money. What they actually say and their level of apparent excitement is probably a better judge.
Archlinux ftw
Actually its not, the feel for the classes is mostly the same, stances for warriors, sprits and pets for rangers, wells and minions for necros... exploration, gear/lvl not mattering much, ect... B2P attitude and much more... you will not get the action based combat but there is way more than that. and damn... someone could have corrected DECISION for me =P
and to the idiot asking me to back up my claims... I dunno, maybe look up my past posts where I quoted the fanbois calling me a slut, a troll, and much more.. oh unless they were deleted but I highly doubt it. I cant believe you can be on this site and pretend not to know about the severe bashing anyone got who claimed to not like SWTOR prerelease. *edit* OHHH I read up.. you are playing and seem to be proud of TSW.. I get it now.. that was the WORST beta I have ever been in and so glad I got in so I didn't waste money on buying that shit game.
QFT.
It's kind of astonishing how short some people's memories are. There was indeed (and to a lesser extent, still is) rabid fanboyism from a very vocal set of TOR fans. While the majority of press reviews turned out to be positive, none of them were gushing over TOR. On top of that, there were negative reviews online as well, but each and every one of them got shot down or 'discredited' by fanboys. There were even entire threads questioning the fairness / ignorance of blatantly disregarding all negative TOR criticism and blindly accepting anything that sounded positive about the game.
There's pleanty of examples of this on these forums alone, one only has to look (and a good place to start would be the locked threads in the TOR section).
- That said, this is the first impression of the game. Many of the reviews make this abundantly clear, and some of these 'reviews' don't call themselves as such, but more of a first impression or opinion of the game.
I got to play this game a little during one of the cons, and I know it's good. I also know that no one is really going to take my word on that on these forums. However, for my own personal viewpoint on this game I am not surprised that the first reacion was positive. It is a very fun game, and very refreshing (it feels new & different right away).
That said, I'm sure we will see some criticism on this game as people get a chance to play more of it. There are more beta events around the corner, this was really just the first. There's a lot to the game, and while that means there's a lot of stuff to enjoy, it equally means that there is a lot of stuff to nitpick and critique on. If you're a skeptic towards this game, ignore this first wave of reviews. Wait for more of a range of opinions to crop up and pay attentions to the ones that seem to fit your playstyle / mindset best.
I've found that, for me, that tends to give me a much more accurate expectation of the games I'm going to play, and also allows me to make smarter decisions on whether or not to buy the next new MMO. Because, the majority of them really have been crap.
As far as I know:
GW1 didn't abolish the Holy Trinity.
GW1 did not have an extensive dynamic event system.
GW1 did not have W v W v W.
GW1 was not even a MMORPG.
I am sure someone who knows more about the differences can compile a larger more comprehensive list. However, the point is clear: the differences are too large between GW1 and GW2 to attempt to get a decent feel of GW2 through GW1.
Is it really that hard to reply without hurling insults? i think it is. But i won't stoop to your level. OP just confirmed what i was saying that SWTOR mostly had positive reviews from press. But does it mean anything? nope. Once players get their hands on the game that is when real impressions starts coming. You said many press ragged on SWTOR but you provided no backup for it and you went on to put blanket statement that fanboys were insulting 'us'. Who are these us? don't you see the irony in your post? if you can't reply without insulting others i am not surprised that you were being insulted.
Bite Me
not for the game, but a feel for the company is a big one. I have learned that Arenanet cares about their player base and cares about their lore. While when GW launched it was a radical change from MMOs at the time, similar to how Guild Wars 2 will be.
No worries, because you are right on the money. One could expand on your list, however, what you listed is what matters. On a personal note, every single one of those changed factors from the original is a factor that is bringing me back to Tyria. But honestly, what's really bringing me back to Tyria is...Tyria. It's my favorite game world to date and i've played in nearly every one of them. I'm very excited to return in an enhanced environment.
Completely agree you should make up your own minds on the products via research before buying, it's what saved me alot of money on SWTOR. I made the mistake long ago of not doing that with STO and believing every word the DEVs were saying. This time i am not going to be the fool. I watched hours of footage of SWTOR before it launched and played a couple of days in the beta. Was not impressed. Then when it launched i listened to all the players and i have to say that for everything that the players who disliked the game were saying there was a video proving it. Not so much for the so called fanbois.
I do not however agree with your statement that all of the press is the same when it comes to judging games. There were a few barely heard unpaid voices in the group of mmo reviewers that spoke their mind plainly. They were almost all but ignored. And when those of us who pointed out that they were the only ones being honest did so, we were chastised for being honest ourselves. When it comes to GW2 not everyone agrees that it will be a huge hit simply because they are being innovative in the truest sense. B2P mmo, no gear treadmill, a store that doesn't sell advantages, death of the trinity, no skill trainers, level scaling to zone, truly large and numerous underwater zones. They are changing alot but will it be enough to keep people interested and keep people playing. Then there are the people who don't want to play a fantasy game, rather scifi instead who wanted SWTOR to be a huge hit but were disappointed.
I think you should all look at the videos yourself and see what is best for you and I can honestly say this is coming from a GW2 fanboi because It has everything i've ever wanted in an mmo.
I applaud this attitude and i enjoyed your post. I, however, am not in the "waiting for the next big thing" crowd. I've been waiting on this game since the first one was still in it's height of popularity, even though this sequel hadn't even been announced. I told my very good friend that played it with me as i was moving on from the first game, "if they ever open up this world and make it a true MMO experience, i probably will play nothing but the sequel."
A few years have passed and this is exactly what is being given...and then some. I do understand, however, your need for caution because hype trains have been flying off of tracks for a while now and the last one just crashed into a land of embarrassment. Cautious optimism is a good way to go for people who are truly unaffilated with the first game.
It is quite simply a case of Bioware Vs Anet. Neither companies actually made the games from complete scratch, this is simply not how it works with game programming. Games engines and other libraries are used and modified.
For example, the engine that is used in SWTOR for character customization is used in Dragon Age Origins, the quests are even provided in a same format as other Bioware games.
Anet is reusing some code from Aion, some from Guild Wars, and other games. While also creating loads of new things.
Even WoW is based off the Warcraft 3 engine.
I believe (and it is an opinion) that they key to a sucessful MMO (along with many other factors) is balancing how much code you re-use and how much is new. So far it seems that Anet has made a lot of new code, the downside to this approach is how time consuming it is.
Guild Wars 2 Thief Guide - Elder Scrolls Online Guide
So in one sentence you tell us not listen to press and fanbois and then in second you tell us to believe your honesty because you are a GW2 fanboy? ok.
Bite Me
I'll throw my one grain of salt onto the pile:
No matter how much crystal meth the reviewers did....um, I mean coffee they drank, they still didn't have that many hours to play. Not enough to be sure things don't fall apart or get repetitive or become too hectic or simply rub everyone the wrong way for no good reason.
Not that I'm saying it's going to be bad past a certain amount of gameplay or that anything is wrong with it. I'm hyped for this game, it sounds great. But until I get to buy it and play it for 16 hours a day, seven days a week...I mean, for a healthy and reasonable amount of time over a period of a month or so, I'm still wary.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
~Albert Einstein
I got really excited about aion ! and i mean, really and i am happy to say i was one of the few that actually REALLY enjoyed the title too !
They only reason i quit that game was because my friends quit :<
I never really liked what i saw in the video's about SWTOR, beta testing the game only confirmed it for me, so i didn't really get dissapointed there.
WAR i just bought out of curiosity, knowing nothing of the game. Boy was i dissapoint >.> ... played it for a few days then i shelved it to never pick it up.
Then guild wars 2, my personal level of hype after watching 10 hours of in-game footage has never been this high xD. This just looks like the game made for me
I want to take it with a grain of salt ... But really ... i can not ... it just looks too promosing ><
You've got to be joking. The amount of hype surrounding SWTOR for the better part of two years, right up until launch, is unprecedented. I've been playing MMOs for 10 years...never have I seen more hype than with SWTOR. Being a fan of the game is one thing, completely disregarding reality, is quite another.
Sorroe, Human Mesmer
Jade Quarry Server
OP here. A couple of quick followups.
This isn’t about hype, or some hypemeter, this is about the recent judgments and observations from the gaming “press” with respect to MMOs and why a lot of us are taking anything from the press with caution.
This also isn’t about if the press deemed SWTOR innovative, it is about whether or not they wrongly gushed over it and why I personally take the current hype for GW2 with a grain of salt, moreso than usual.
No offense to smaller sites and reviewers who may have been critical of SWTOR, I actually seek your opinions out, but let’s be real, the vast majority of gamers get their information from about half a dozen sites and yes, they gushed over SWTOR.
The highest rated PC game over that last 90 days on Metacritic (which averages the reviews from numerous sites, 65 of them, not just the main ones)… is SWTOR… tied with Amalur at 85 aggregate score.
Now it is easy to lift a few snippets from their reviews to back up any claim you want, it really doesn’t paint the whole picture, and the whole picture is that in fact the mainstream gaming press loved SWTOR.
In keeping with my previous statement, these following statements don’t paint the whole picture, but here are some snippets about SWTOR to balance the earlier ones in this thread:
Gamespy: “its generous treasure trove of content makes it my massively multiplayer game of choice for at least the next several months.”. Is Gamespy’s best MMO of 2011.
G4 TV: They gave it a 5 out of 5, a perfect score… seriously. “From MMO fans who don’t care about Star Wars to Star Wars fans who have never played an MMO to BioWare fans who don’t care about Star Wars or MMOs, reaction has been universally positive.”…. uh really?... “They have succeeded far beyond my admittedly high expectations”
PC Gamer: 93/100. “The game’s quality is consistently outstanding”. “This one’s got a long, bright future ahead of it.”
IGN: 9/10. “I can say beyond a shadow of a doubt that The Old Republic is a stand-out, wonderfully crafted MMO.”
MMORPG: 8.7 out of 10. “the game is simply exceptional” …“a final product that convincingly makes the case that as great as many MMOs have been, we’ve definitely been missing a significant piece of the puzzle for all these years.”
Now maybe Bob over at Bob’s gaming blog, was critical of SWTOR, but sorry, saying that the gaming press didn’t gush over SWTOR is a bit out of touch in my opinion. Seeing the same gush over the “press” beta, I truly hope it is warranted.