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I want to make my first game! But I stubbled onto the Free Hero Engine

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  • KenFisherKenFisher Northwest, INPosts: 5,035Member Uncommon

    I don't know hero, so no specific advice there.  Best shot would be to get started with it and start learning your way around the development environment.  The better you know your tools, the easier it will be to get into production.

     

    I built Realm Lords using TGE (Torque Game Engine) and MMO extensions to Torque that provide a decent framework for MMO functionality.  Artwork was licensed from vendors.  This left me with the MMO creation process, debugging/optimizing the engine, and improving server architecture to make it more industrial quality.

     

    I hit closed alpha in 6 months, fully playable in just shy of 2 years.  video link (skip 1st minute boring intro)  I wasn't happy with the finished product and pulled it a month after release to start work on WAC using a more modern engine.

     

    Solo is possible, but you will end up being spread thin.  The better the engine and MMO framework, the easier it will be.

     

    Things to keep in mind...

    Character art with animation

    Monster art with animation

    Scenery art (trees, grass, rocks)

    Architectural art (building exteriors, bridges, fences, etc)

    Interior art (almost impossible to buy, I build mine using QuArK)

     

    The hardest part of any of these is finding art that will work properly with the engine's art pipeline.  Of course, this depends on the engine itself.

     

    One common stumbling block (at least for me) is game design.  Not only does it have to run well, look good, and have features people expect in an MMORPG, it has to be something that's enjoyable to play.  That is much harder than it sounds.  Sandbox / Themepark alignment is a big decision.  As soon as you chose one, the other side will not like your product.  In reality most won't even consider a DIY game as being worth the time to play.  On the other hand, if you cater to a niche crowd that isn't being well serviced by modern games you can build at least a moderate following once things are near release quality.

     

    Take a look at TurboSquid for art ideas.

     

    First thing I'd try is creating a starter zone.  It probably won't make it into your finished game, but it will give you an idea of what is involved.  Don't be afraid to throw out work.  First try on anything is going to be rough.  After building several zones your skills will improve and the quality will come up.

     

    Not sure if I've answered the question... just thoughts on the process.


    Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now working in Network Security.  I don't Forum PVP.  If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident.  When I don't understand, I ask.  Such is not intended as criticism.
  • AcmegamerAcmegamer Selah, WAPosts: 337Member

    Originally posted by revy66

     



    Originally posted by ramdy




    Somehitng calling my attention (in this and other forums) is how most people discourage about HeroEngine without giving any reason or argument.


     


    For programming learnig, don't waste your time and go for the game-dev industry standard: C++ , where rest of languages like LUA, Python, C# are used for marginal purposes, scripting, etc.


    I found a tutorials series of interest: http://devmaster.net/posts/introduction-to-c-with-game-development-part-1-intro


    http://gamedev.net is also a place to check frequently.

    The only reason people discourage against HeroEngine is because they deem Swtor to be buggy and unoptimized cause honestly I can't think of any other reason. The CEO of Pathfinder, a new MMO in development that uses the HeroEngine from ex-CCP devs touches on this: http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz4shh&page=2?Game-engine#63

       I've had a love/hate relationship with the developers of HeroEngine and was totally getting to where I was patting myself on the back for how badly done SWTOR was after seeing how Bioware used the HeroEngine. Then I started reading the HeroEngine Wiki and then started reading posts by the developers of Dominus and the developers of The Repopulation, which caused me to start  having doubts that HeroEngine was the issue. Trust me that I wanted to place blame squarely at the feet of Simutronics (Idea Fabrik now) for the failures of SWTOR.

     I am starting to believe that I am going to start having to eat crow on this matter. I am now of the point of view that maybe Simutroincs did something very right. Honestly it sounds like Bioware totally screwed the hooch in regards to how they used HeroEngine.

     Now to the OP,  I'd actually recomend going to the HeroEngine Wiki and reading through it, you might find that you might have found the tool for you. I do agree with other posters that you should get some books on C++ if you are serious about getitng into game developement code work.

     

  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member Common
    C# isn't a scripting language, its a java derivative (java not jscript) typically used for "putting things in databases" type applications.

    While you can write games in heavily boilerplated languages like c# and java (e.g. minecraft) you won't get the raw power you get from writing them in c as c is a compiled language and doesn't sit on some sort of framework. Whole games companies may use C++ they don't use it like business software makers do, you try and avoid using classes and especially polymorphism, but you do make use of C++ better calling methods than c, and use generics (templates)

    You could possibly write a good game in some sort of pascal derivative, a lot of old games were written in turbo pascal rather than c, with only slight performance drop (compared to something much slower like c#)
  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 14,247Member Rare

    Originally posted by MMOExposed

    I want to make my first game, and get some experience in the field. I signed up for the Hero Engine to try it out. I still havnt used it yet, but I wouldnt mind some tips to get started, on where I can learn how to develope multiplayer online RPGs. I been to other sites, but nobody ever seems to have a suggestion on where to start.

    1. Create a single-player game

    2. Make it fun.

    It'd say start there.

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member Common
    There's 2 derivatives of python,
    Normal python which is often used as glue or for player created content
    Stackless python which is a really fast language for server applications that need to serve thousands of concurrent users (is used on eve servers)
  • alkarionlogalkarionlog SPosts: 1,269Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by MMOExposed

    I want to make my first game, and get some experience in the field. I signed up for the Hero Engine to try it out. I still havnt used it yet, but I wouldnt mind some tips to get started, on where I can learn how to develope multiplayer online RPGs. I been to other sites, but nobody ever seems to have a suggestion on where to start.

     

    first do a 4 year college in computer science or system analist or anything on that area, second, start with with a single player game, make it fun enough for people go in and play it, like the dude in cave history, or any otehr game over the internet who like to play it, if you did good enough maybe someone from a company will try to contact you, if not you can always find people willing to help and then you can start to amke a team, and try to go over.

     

    alone a MMO you will not make too much things to do and code, you would also need to work on scripts, be it the history one and or action ones,.

     

    FOR HONOR, FOR FREEDOM.... and for some money.
    image

  • VegettoVegetto WorcesterPosts: 841Member

    Hero is looking better and better the more i get into it.

    Edit: Lots of code, scripting language. The issue isn't the code, it's the issue of implementing it and how. Think this will take a while to learn how to work with the engine before actually doing anything, i'm most interested in the inventory system.

    image

  • drbaltazardrbaltazar drummondville, QCPosts: 7,854Member Uncommon

    if you plan to have huge world battle !firs step is this

    from microsoft

    1:remote differential compression

    2:donnybrook

    once you got those then you find an engine that can work with these!

    why is this important!because these two techno are optimised for windows product and people wouldnt believe how improtant this is

    lower footprint of your mmo.so intead of having 1000 player sending data to your server at say 500 kb

    you would have only those being updated in real time and the footprint for rdc is 90  so it is very minimal and with donnybrook it is futrut optimised

    i dont know if both techno can work together you might have to ask on channel 9 there is a show they do there each week with q&a and if they dont have the answer they go very far to try to answer your question!

    i hope you have lot of success in your venture.also for first game keep it simple.check tetris .there is an online version now simple game to make insanelly addictive lot of fun!so for mmo !you have to keep it simple so it doesnt end up a lifetime project like dwarf forteress!

  • CastillleCastillle KhobarPosts: 2,672Member Uncommon
    Never tried the hero engine but you shoulld read their forums and their wiki for more info.



    I heard that blender game engine is like....pretty much point and click and classes n objects are handled in point and click and fill up style form instead of code so... You could look into that i guess.




    If you want to learn everything and not just use an engine, just get some reasources.



    For resources, there are a couple of youtube channels that i find gives really good c++ examples.
    Umm..i use dx11 BUT i suggest that you learn opengl instead. Cuathon uses that so better off asking him for resources on that.



    There is no one book solution unless you get the api or sdk documentation tbh. So i say use youtube, pick an ide ( code::blocks or visual c++ express ) and start with programming.
    <<br>

    After you get some of those done, learn more advanced datastructures such as diff trees,umm...and diff sorting algorithms. Quad trees, ocrees, heap, bubble, insertion, binaryy insertion.



    Ummm...learn data driven style and object oriented style..



    Start with mud style then once thats done, start with making a graphics engine (use opengl itll prolly giive less hassle than dx11.)



    After that you just slowly port over your data representation on the mud and take it to the graphics engine.



    Umm...ive had fever since last week and havent opened my computer so i cant give any exact links sorry :(



    Outofmylaboratory youtube channel is good. Other than that, just start googling for how to make a window in c++ n stuff

    Oh and if you want, theres also xna which should be easier to learn than c++ or so i was told...i heard it has no pointers though and im a pointer ***** o.o pointers are awesome. They point at stuff n stuff.

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  • jacklojacklo BlackpoolPosts: 570Member

    I wouldn't write off Hero Engine based on SWTOR. I think they made their own mistakes.

    Even if Hero can't scale to the numbers of SWTOR, I can't see that being a problem for your first game.

    Go with what feels good and gives results with the minimum of input.

    Learning to code your own game engine from scratch will take many, many years on your own. Start small and gradually improve as you learn more.

  • jusomdudejusomdude Posts: 2,476Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Castillle

    Never tried the hero engine but you shoulld read their forums and their wiki for more info.



    I heard that blender game engine is like....pretty much point and click and classes n objects are handled in point and click and fill up style form instead of code so... You could look into that i guess.



    If you want to learn everything and not just use an engine, just get some reasources.



    For resources, there are a couple of youtube channels that i find gives really good c++ examples. Umm..i use dx11 BUT i suggest that you learn opengl instead. Cuathon uses that so better off asking him for resources on that.



    There is no one book solution unless you get the api or sdk documentation tbh. So i say use youtube, pick an ide ( code::blocks or visual c++ express ) and start with programming.

    <

    After you get some of those done, learn more advanced datastructures such as diff trees,umm...and diff sorting algorithms. Quad trees, ocrees, heap, bubble, insertion, binaryy insertion.



    Ummm...learn data driven style and object oriented style..



    Start with mud style then once thats done, start with making a graphics engine (use opengl itll prolly giive less hassle than dx11.)



    After that you just slowly port over your data representation on the mud and take it to the graphics engine.



    Umm...ive had fever since last week and havent opened my computer so i cant give any exact links sorry :(



    Outofmylaboratory youtube channel is good. Other than that, just start googling for how to make a window in c++ n stuff Oh and if you want, theres also xna which should be easier to learn than c++ or so i was told...i heard it has no pointers though and im a pointer ***** o.o pointers are awesome. They point at stuff n stuff.

    You can use pointers in xna, you just have to set the project option to allow unsafe code.

    Also, from my experience, opengl is easier to use, but it's also slower... could just be my card but that's my experience.

  • VegettoVegetto WorcesterPosts: 841Member

    Anyone got any thoughts on C#?

    I've avoided the C family all these years and think it's about time i got into it. C# seems to be a natural hybrid of Java and VB from what i read and considering i come from both (mainly VB), it should be a walk.

    I think of all my skills, programming is the one i've neglected most, so i'm going to go balls to the wall with it and brush up with a good high level. C++ scares me though, so i'm hoping C# is the next thing.

    image

  • waynejr2waynejr2 West Toluca Lake, CAPosts: 6,385Member Rare

    Originally posted by LeegOfChldrn


    Originally posted by MMOExposed

    I want to make my first game, and get some experience in the field. I signed up for the Hero Engine to try it out. I still havnt used it yet, but I wouldnt mind some tips to get started, on where I can learn how to develope multiplayer online RPGs. I been to other sites, but nobody ever seems to have a suggestion on where to start.

    Tips?

    For any beginner, I'd suggest trying to make their dream MMORPG as a MUD first.

     

    Yes, it will be text based, or possibly even browser based or text with some artwork or still graphics (pictures).

    Yet it will be a MMORPG, with full RPG and full MMO capabilities.

     

    It's also a great way to test the waters, garner a community, and build your investment.

    It might sound silly, but a MUD would be an excellent start, being a complete project with all the bells and whistles-- minus the graphics. Something you honestly don't need to make a MMORPG, but the #1 hardest task, biggest timesink, and most expensive component.

    Plus if the person can't pull off making a MUD he will never be able to pull off a mmorpg.

    http://www.youhaventlived.com/qblog/2010/QBlog190810A.html  

    https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1

    https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1

    Kyleran:  "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."

    John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."

    FreddyNoNose:  "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."

    LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"



  • rounnerrounner CanberraPosts: 636Member Uncommon

    C# is a precompiler/ expert for c++ and is not a Java derivative unless you want to debate the origins of object oriented code. If you dont understand that I dont really know why you'd have the confidence to make claims about its appropriateness for games. Claiming games are still mostly written in c is ludicrous. Some people may choose c because they are trying to work with legacy engines that are in c and dont know how to integrate it into managed code.

  • ramdyramdy GuadalajaraPosts: 47Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by rounner

    C# is a precompiler/ expert for c++ and is not a Java derivative unless you want to debate the origins of object oriented code. If you dont understand that I dont really know why you'd have the confidence to make claims about its appropriateness for games. Claiming games are still mostly written in c is ludicrous. Some people may choose c because they are trying to work with legacy engines that are in c and dont know how to integrate it into managed code.

    Relevant for videogame industry engines are all written in C++ (Unreal, BigWorld, HeroEngine..). If a videogame engine isn't written in C++ it is just not professional. C#, Python, LUA... are in this case just "tools" (like the HSL for HeroEngine) which allows the engine user to "mod" his game.

  • VegettoVegetto WorcesterPosts: 841Member

    As i thought, C++ closer to the actual hardware and as such you have more control. It's too unwieldy though, i'll crack on with C#, looks like it has a future and i can't ever see myself needing to write an engine tbh.

    image

  • TruthXHurtsTruthXHurts El Do, KSPosts: 1,555Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by MMOExposed

    I want to make my first game, and get some experience in the field. I signed up for the Hero Engine to try it out. I still havnt used it yet, but I wouldnt mind some tips to get started, on where I can learn how to develope multiplayer online RPGs. I been to other sites, but nobody ever seems to have a suggestion on where to start.

    Youtube is your friend. There are a bunch of tutorial videos for HeroEngine on there.

    "I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"

  • CuathonCuathon University City, NYPosts: 2,211Member

    Originally posted by Vegetto

    As i thought, C++ closer to the actual hardware and as such you have more control. It's too unwieldy though, i'll crack on with C#, looks like it has a future and i can't ever see myself needing to write an engine tbh.

    Real coders use assembly :P

  • VegettoVegetto WorcesterPosts: 841Member


    Originally posted by Cuathon

    Originally posted by Vegetto
    As i thought, C++ closer to the actual hardware and as such you have more control. It's too unwieldy though, i'll crack on with C#, looks like it has a future and i can't ever see myself needing to write an engine tbh.
    Real coders use assembly :P

    I got a book on that actually and i almost attempted it lol. But it's like, needless to code in such a way nowadays, i suppose it's mainly for hardware.

    I'm still undecided over C and whether it will be a good base to work from or if it has aged too much now. I'm sure i'll spend hours either way of going through the same stuff over and over that every language text goes through (classes, loops, declarations, blah blah), until i get to the useful stuff heh.

    image

  • CuathonCuathon University City, NYPosts: 2,211Member

    Originally posted by Vegetto

     


    Originally posted by Cuathon





    Originally posted by Vegetto

    As i thought, C++ closer to the actual hardware and as such you have more control. It's too unwieldy though, i'll crack on with C#, looks like it has a future and i can't ever see myself needing to write an engine tbh.





    Real coders use assembly :P



     

    I got a book on that actually and i almost attempted it lol. But it's like, needless to code in such a way nowadays, i suppose it's mainly for hardware.

    I'm still undecided over C and whether it will be a good base to work from or if it has aged too much now. I'm sure i'll spend hours either way of going through the same stuff over and over that every language text goes through (classes, loops, declarations, blah blah), until i get to the useful stuff heh.

     

     



    I was kidding. Coding in assembly is a terrible idea.

    I use C++ and a bunch of libraries and SDKs like PhysX. And I also use OpenGL.

    Most non commercial games use engines like Unity or C4 or Hero or Unreal or something.

  • SpectrumizedSpectrumized Frisco, TXPosts: 48Member

    Unity is a good engine for learning basic and making small games, but it doesn't seem to be enough for MMOs. No idea on hero engine, never looked into it.

  • entityxentityx JohannesburgPosts: 39Member Uncommon
    No one has mentioned CryEngine yet. Does anyone have any experience with it? The SDK is free for non-commercial use.
  • VegettoVegetto WorcesterPosts: 841Member


    Originally posted by Cuathon

    Originally posted by Vegetto
     


    Originally posted by Cuathon



    Originally posted by Vegetto
    As i thought, C++ closer to the actual hardware and as such you have more control. It's too unwieldy though, i'll crack on with C#, looks like it has a future and i can't ever see myself needing to write an engine tbh.


    Real coders use assembly :P



     
    I got a book on that actually and i almost attempted it lol. But it's like, needless to code in such a way nowadays, i suppose it's mainly for hardware.
    I'm still undecided over C and whether it will be a good base to work from or if it has aged too much now. I'm sure i'll spend hours either way of going through the same stuff over and over that every language text goes through (classes, loops, declarations, blah blah), until i get to the useful stuff heh.
     
     

    I was kidding. Coding in assembly is a terrible idea.
    I use C++ and a bunch of libraries and SDKs like PhysX. And I also use OpenGL.
    Most non commercial games use engines like Unity or C4 or Hero or Unreal or something.


    After some research, i've decided C++ isn't really a route i would like to go down, as it is too intense and is used for stuff that i don't think i'll ever get involved in, i.e. making an engine, coding huge projects, etc. I personally enjoy making small applications and it seems scripting will also play a huge part in future development of existing engines.

    I'm going to start up with Hero Engine, it really is impressive how slick it is. It uses HeroScript, which seems to be C#-esque. The inbuilt libraries, IDE and the predictive coding, it's so easy. As a sole programmer or indy guy, i think C++ perhaps isn't ideal for that.

    I do wish someone one day would standardize the high-level languages, i mean, Visual C# is so similar to VB it's shocking. i.e. declaring variables:

    VB: Dim MMORPG as String
    C#: MMORPG as String

    And it's all like that.

    Except obviously VB isn't OOP and is structural, but imo C# surely supercedes VB now for applications programming.

    But for those that haven't tried it, i would recommend a look at HeroCloud. It's now free for the full package, only cost would be if you publish a game off the back of it and get revenue above a certain threshhold.

    image

  • rounnerrounner CanberraPosts: 636Member Uncommon

    I am glad you took all advice with a grain of salt. XNA (a version of c# for games) is a very popular environment for those of us that gave up on pie in the sky dreams of writing our own MMO and just want to make small fun games that we can realistically finish.

  • VegettoVegetto WorcesterPosts: 841Member


    Originally posted by rounner
    I am glad you took all advice with a grain of salt. XNA (a version of c# for games) is a very popular environment for those of us that gave up on pie in the sky dreams of writing our own MMO and just want to make small fun games that we can realistically finish.

    That's what i'm hoping.

    Programming has always been the dagger lurking over my head, mainly as i never had a direct use for it. It would be learning for the sake of it, which to some extent i did (mainly at Uni). Even now, i don't have anything to apply it to, i just know i will need to improve it for future use, especially scripting. I'm not in the market to write a huge program from scratch, as personally i think the tools available lately negate this requirement.

    When you look at it objectively, i can't really think of something one lone person would need to use C++ for, over a more friendly language such as C#. It's my understanding (from what i have tried to learn) that C++ comes into its own for large coding projects, but if you were coding something alone, would it be suitable?

    image

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