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Dominus: A Note to the Vocal Minority

13

Comments

  • MagnetiaMagnetia SydneyPosts: 1,029Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Torvaldr

    It's not black and white.  Jeff Atwood (from Stack Overflow) has an interesting blog post about his very thing, only his project wasn't an MMO.  Online communities can be beasts as anyone here knows.

    Coding Horror blog post: http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2012/02/listen-to-your-community-but-dont-let-them-tell-you-what-to-do.html

    An excellent read for insight from a more professional perspective. Most of us have little idea what goes into implementing new features into a game during development let alone post launch. Unless the game has been built with future implementations in mind it is either going to be a massive job (Flying in WoW, just think about all the clipping they had to put in for flight) or time consuming (which means more money). I expect that devs also have many cool features that they wanted to put into the game but had to ultimately be cut because there simply wasn't enough time, money, technology (GW Polymock was supposed to have pvp) or just didn't feel right. (Diablo 3 henchmen)

    I also have little idea what really goes into making a game :P

    Play for fun. Play to win. Play for perfection. Play with friends. Play in another world. Why do you play?

  • RaxeonRaxeon cedar falls, IAPosts: 2,089Member Uncommon

    you guys are taking the blog the wrong way lol if you let this blog decide if you going to play dom. then your just asshole that thing your opinion matters more than anyones elses.(this is the reason i dont like going out in the real world and just play my games and work) cause i would just punch people in the face that get upset about a blog

  • HatefullHatefull Posts: 773Member Uncommon

    I agree with Sonya here.  There has been more than one instance where I was busy playing a game, and the vocal whineority (who ususally spend more time on the boards than actually playing) cried up a storm until something that was working just fine for the majority was changed.  It can be a bit annoying.  SWG was famous for listening to the minorty of whiners and where did it get them? yeah, dead.

    DAoC, Lineage 2, etc etc still plugging along ignoring everyone they may not post the numbers they did in their prime, but they are still very much alive.

    Bottom line;  The vocal mionority does way more harm than good in my opinion.

    If you want a new idea, go read an old book.

  • RaxeonRaxeon cedar falls, IAPosts: 2,089Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Hatefull

    I agree with Sonya here.  There has been more than one instance where I was busy playing a game, and the vocal whineority (who ususally spend more time on the boards than actually playing) cried up a storm until something that was working just fine for the majority was changed.  It can be a bit annoying.  SWG was famous for listening to the minorty of whiners and where did it get them? yeah, dead.

    DAoC, Lineage 2, etc etc still plugging along ignoring everyone they may not post the numbers they did in their prime, but they are still very much alive.

    Bottom line;  The vocal mionority does way more harm than good in my opinion.

    yep esspiccly if you dont have serious beta testers

  • Garvon3Garvon3 Worcester, MAPosts: 2,898Member

    Originally posted by Raxeon

    Originally posted by Hatefull

    I agree with Sonya here.  There has been more than one instance where I was busy playing a game, and the vocal whineority (who ususally spend more time on the boards than actually playing) cried up a storm until something that was working just fine for the majority was changed.  It can be a bit annoying.  SWG was famous for listening to the minorty of whiners and where did it get them? yeah, dead.

    DAoC, Lineage 2, etc etc still plugging along ignoring everyone they may not post the numbers they did in their prime, but they are still very much alive.

    Bottom line;  The vocal mionority does way more harm than good in my opinion.

    yep esspiccly if you dont have serious beta testers

    Er... sometimes you SHOULD listen to the players. Like, SOE not reversing the NGE in SWG.

    Or, DAoC not listening to its players about /level 20, the instances, ToA... there's a reason DAoC is down to one server now, when it used to be the second most popular MMO out there, and its because Mythic started litsening to EA instead of its players.

    But AoC, an example of a bad vocal minority... when a bunch of WoW raiding guilds got into early beta and complained about how hard the game was AoC made it easier and easier until it was essentially a WoW clone that wouldn't even challenge a toddler with brain damage.

  • BartDaCatBartDaCat Renton, WAPosts: 819Member Uncommon

    Ah, how entertaining!  Nothing quite like seeing our opinions being marginalized by an alleged Community Rep on a website where people in the community come to exchange feedback and ideas about their favorite pasttime.

  • FindarielFindariel SomewherePosts: 216Member

    Wow nice article, the first game that came to mind was EVE! :D

  • BigdaddyxBigdaddyx California, WAPosts: 1,985Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by BartDaCat





    Ah, how entertaining!  Nothing quite like seeing our opinions being marginalized by an alleged Community Rep on a website where people in the community come to exchange feedback and ideas about their favorite pasttime.

    Are we still talking about mmorpg.com ;p

  • DistopiaDistopia Baltimore, MDPosts: 16,905Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Teala







    Originally posted by Ozmodan







    Kind of an amusing post Sanya.  Since no one ever listened to the vocal minority at DAoC, where nerfing classes and abilities into oblivion was SOP.  And of course the famous Trials of Atlantis fiasco that did a major deflate on the playerbase.  Sometimes the vocal minority is screaming for a darn good reason and ignoring them is the wrong move.














     





    I couldn't have said it better, I have tried to figure out what to say and then I found your post and I think you summed it up nicely.   I think too few people recall just how heavy of hand the Mythic CR used back in the day - but it was enough that it finally drove me away from the game.  Mythic didn't care for criticism in the least.   You(Sanya) and Scott were very quick to shut down anyone that might disagree with Mythics handling of things.  Rarely was their room for debate.










     

    You say that as if there were official DAOC forums...  I don't recall that at any time.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

    It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  • BartDaCatBartDaCat Renton, WAPosts: 819Member Uncommon







    Originally posted by ActionMMORPG












    Originally posted by aleos









    i can promise i will continue to bitch, moan, complain, whine, QQ, and tell it how it is. its more constructive than "If you don't like it don't play it."





    /flex





     





    Does that make you part of the solution, or part of  the problem?














     

    It's a quote from a response Sanya gave the DAoC community back in the day.

    Her perception of the internet gaming community basically boils down to us all being a bunch of "...basement dwelling trogs...", so any perceived altruism you see in her article should be taken with a grain of salt.

    "But, hey, I’ll give you some new information – the marketing girl and I both thought you were hot. Holding that opinion was especially disconcerting for me because after all the back and forth over your banning, I’d totally pictured you as a basement dwelling trog. But hot where hot is due. So there you go." - Sanya Weathers

     http://eatingbees.brokentoys.org/2010/10/13/yes-i-saw-the-louse-blog/









     




     

  • Garvon3Garvon3 Worcester, MAPosts: 2,898Member

    Originally posted by BartDaCat















    Originally posted by ActionMMORPG






























    Originally posted by aleos























    i can promise i will continue to bitch, moan, complain, whine, QQ, and tell it how it is. its more constructive than "If you don't like it don't play it."













    /flex













     













    Does that make you part of the solution, or part of  the problem?






























     

    It's a quote from a response Sanya gave the DAoC community back in the day.

    Her perception of the internet gaming community basically boils down to us all being a bunch of "...basement dwelling trogs...", so any perceived altruism you see in her article should be taken with a grain of salt.

    "But, hey, I’ll give you some new information – the marketing girl and I both thought you were hot. Holding that opinion was especially disconcerting for me because after all the back and forth over your banning, I’d totally pictured you as a basement dwelling trog. But hot where hot is due. So there you go." - Sanya Weathers

     http://eatingbees.brokentoys.org/2010/10/13/yes-i-saw-the-louse-blog/






















     










     

    Sayna has always been a very comical/tongue in cheek poster.

  • PapamacPapamac Winnipeg, MBPosts: 159Member

    "I do not do/like/approve of this thing, therefore no one else should." Uh... go away. 

     

    Couldn't have said it better.

  • RaxeonRaxeon cedar falls, IAPosts: 2,089Member Uncommon

    garv it hink thats what sanya was saying in here post sometimes you have to listen to them soemtimes it sbest not to depending on what the qq is about you have ot be able to understand whatt he blog is saying

  • GolelornGolelorn Hiding From Social Media Peeping Toms, ALPosts: 1,099Member Uncommon

    The problem is the VM bully and drown out any other voice. The forum moderators let this happen, and the forums usually only have one side that frequents the forum. The side that is doing the bullying.

  • echolynfanecholynfan Lancaster, PAPosts: 681Member

    So basically the article/rant translates into: "You bunch of minority no-nothings should just shut the hell up and take what you're given because the game developers know what's best for you.

     

    Currently playing SWTOR and it's MUCH better than it was at launch.

  • raistlinmraistlinm new orleans, LAPosts: 673Member

    Originally posted by ActionMMORPG

    Any dev that does anything will find they have their own VM.  If they follow the rules, it's wrong.  If they break the rules, it's wrong.  No matter how much they do it's either too much, not enough, or both.

     

    The reason is, these people are bored silly.  They've been following the genre for a decade now.  They've made the Kessel run in less than 12 parsecs, they've climbed the mounts of Azeroth, they've done thousands if not millions of FedEx missions.  They've seen the genre grow from 2D sprites to half-naked hi-poly elvens.  They've played game after game after game, to the point where they all seem to blur together as some sort of bad recurring dream.

     

    But more than anything, they're starting to realize one thing.  The cake is a lie.  In the end, all the games, all the achievement, all the effort amount to nothing more than a large waste of time.  They don't like this.

     

    They have grand ideas on how a game could be perfect.  Anyone shaping a game in any even a slightly different fashion needs to be educated on their epiphany.  They feel it their duty to speak out, loudly if needed.

     

    Developers shouldn't be angry at these people.  It's not their fault.  The industry has failed them.  The "magic" of first-love with an MMORPG cannot be recreated.

     

    After a thousand iterations, each new game is just another "La Petite Mort" with little if any satisfaction.  They want the "magic" to come back, if only for a few moments.

    This reminds me of an example I am often refering to when debating with the VM on these boards, it's about the fact that some of the most memorable experiences of freedom I ever had were experienced while driving my very first pontiac sunbird.  It's so much more about how fresh an experience is.  Truth be told I feel for those who may have reached the point you speak about in your reply it's sad that if these people have evolved beyond what is being offered they can't simply find something else they enjoy.

  • Cyberdeck7Cyberdeck7 Fingerlakes area, NYPosts: 239Member



    Originally posted by Golelorn

    The problem is the VM bully and drown out any other voice. The forum moderators let this happen, and the forums usually only have one side that frequents the forum. The side that is doing the bullying.










     

    Shiver me timbers - gotta watch out for them forum bullys. Just hand 'em your opportunity to express your opinion at the door and skitter by.

    News flash - If you've been a "hardcore member" of a MMO forum since 2003 with 651(+) posts and you're discussing the opinions of a MMO forum community manager surrounding the pros and cons of methods to handle different stereotypes of angry customers..... and you resonate with those stereotypes strongly enough that your mind references being bullied as a child, then my friend, I heartily proclaim that you too are a member of the Vocal Minority.

    <Cyberdeck7> Welcome to the guild Golelorn! I put some armor in the bank for you!


     

  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 19,987Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Hatefull

    I agree with Sonya here.  There has been more than one instance where I was busy playing a game, and the vocal whineority (who ususally spend more time on the boards than actually playing) cried up a storm until something that was working just fine for the majority was changed.  It can be a bit annoying.  SWG was famous for listening to the minorty of whiners and where did it get them? yeah, dead.

    DAoC, Lineage 2, etc etc still plugging along ignoring everyone they may not post the numbers they did in their prime, but they are still very much alive.

    Bottom line;  The vocal mionority does way more harm than good in my opinion.

    If only the people at Mythic, including Sonya had listened to the vocal minority she decries here perhaps DAOC wouldn't be a dead shell of what was arguably once one of the best PVP MMO's.

    In this particular case, I think the minority had a much better handle on how the game should have been developed and this post serves to show how out of touch she and the other folks at Mythic really were.

     

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
    "I don't have one life, I have many lives" - Grunty
    Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  • QuesaQuesa Sacramento, CAPosts: 1,246Member

    Originally posted by Cyberdeck7







    Originally posted by Golelorn







    The problem is the VM bully and drown out any other voice. The forum moderators let this happen, and the forums usually only have one side that frequents the forum. The side that is doing the bullying.






















     





    Shiver me timbers - gotta watch out for them forum bullys. Just hand 'em your opportunity to express your opinion at the door and skitter by.





    News flash - If you've been a "hardcore member" of a MMO forum since 2003 with 651(+) posts and you're discussing the opinions of a MMO forum community manager surrounding the pros and cons of methods to handle different stereotypes of angry customers..... and you resonate with those stereotypes strongly enough that your mind references being bullied as a child, then my friend, I heartily proclaim that you too are a member of the Vocal Minority.





    Welcome to the guild Golelorn! I put some armor in the bank for you!






     

    LOL!

  • SmokeysongSmokeysong Lewisville, TXPosts: 236Member

    Well said, and thanks. I especially like the part about "Man up, Devs."

    It would be nice if MMOGs came with a clear mission statement to the players, telling us what kind of game it is, what the devs intend, and what it won't be, and having enough vision and heart to stick to it.

    ;)

    Have played: Everquest, Asheron's Call, Horizons, Everquest2, World of Warcraft, Lord of the Rings Online, Warhammer, Age of Conan, Darkfall

  • jeremyjodesjeremyjodes antioch, ORPosts: 679Member

    It's Very hard to take advice from veteran MMO players because most game companys have a solid group of very educated people whom they trust.

    I have played or wasted a great many years on certain MMOs but when I see a bad feature I get vocal about it. it's called arm chair development.

    I could cite the many years I watched game developers go down that road and warned them of the outcome but I get ignored and my post get obliterated by flames and accusation of being a troll.

    For Me MMOs are dead, jaded I know. but fans or vets of other MMOs can't change developers decisions about a bad feature simply because they have a plan that was given to them and they won't risk job to rebel against corporate bottom lines.

    It's good to see passion still though. even if it's misguided or downright vile. it means people are clamoring for fun changes to their favorite MMO and wont back down.

    image

  • SirBalinSirBalin Joppa, MDPosts: 1,150Member Uncommon

    Actually, she made some good points....but regardless the message I get from this is, "our game is being hurt by trolls, please stop."  Makes me wonder moreso about the state of the game.

    Incognito
    www.incognito-gaming.us
    "You're either with us or against us"

  • zekeofevzekeofev Mesa, AZPosts: 233Member

    If the vocal minority was not vocal, what would the community be?

     

    A community that just took what was handed to them, whatever it was?

     

    A community that would not give feedback about a feature or a change in the development process?

     

    I could see why from a developer point of view it may be nice. But usually the vocal minority is correct about its views.

     

    Developers: If there is a huge outcry about some paradim shift in your development then choose to not listen to it at your peril. I could cite SWG or DAOC here for some of the changes they forcefed their populace that either hurt the growth of the game or sped its downfall.

     

    Is the vocal minority always right? No. But when enough of that vocal minority all inputs about the same topic, it is generally a major issue and lots of thought should go into deloping against the wishes of the vocal minority.

     

     

  • VicDonneganVicDonnegan Atlanta, GAPosts: 106Member

    When I think of the VM on this site, this usually comes to mind.

  • Mopar63Mopar63 Carbondale, ILPosts: 296Member

    Originally posted in article

     They know their stuff.


     

    This statement alone makes your article come across as just wrong. The truth is the majority of the vocal minority are made up of people with no real clue how game development works and are spoilt brats wanting their instant wins right now.

     

     

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