Unfortunately the genre of MMO's have been dumbed down so much to please the masses that people who loved the original MMO's (not discussing MUD's right now) like UO or EQ1 etc. will probably not like any of the current games out there.
What I think games lack now is a world where exploration is a huge part of the game. Exploration involves wanting to see new things, encounter new things, and being afraid of what might be around the corner. I have not been afraid of dying in a game since the beginning of EQ1 and Ultima Online. In EQ1, you left all your stuff on your body and you had 1 week to either get it back or lose it forever...death in a dungeon became a whole new quest ("Get my body back"). Similarly in UO, when you died, your stuff remained on your corpse and anyone could come by and take your stuff (heck, even the monster who killed you took something and you had to kill him to get it back). Again, a whole new quest was just created - "GET MY CORPSE BACK." What I'm trying to say is something is missing with all these games that has taken the excitement out of playing.
I don't want this to become solely a "death penalty" discussion, as I am not even sure that is what made the old games "fun", but something sure is missing, and the fact that when i die, in pretty much ANY other current game, I don't even flinch, much less panic and need to round-up my friends for a "Search for and recover Alasti's Corpse quest."
Some super-wealthy programmer (who also feels the way I do and isn't making the game to maximize profits) needs to create a game that is NOT catered to the masses and focuses on what makes games fun, even if that doesn't make as much money as it might otherwise bring in. I for one would pay $50/month for a game where this was the case (or maybe even more).
I know this is a pipe-dream, but one can always hope.
If you want PvE you're out of luck, PvE to MMO Developers means easy-mode now. If you want a PvP game with serious penalities that make the game more interesting then I suggest you jump on board the Darkfall community, perhaps support Darkfall 2.0. Maybe even Archeage, though I'm not sure how that game will go.
I'm making PvE hard, support me! I know, I know, product first. Working on it. If I ever get into alpha you will know what hard PvE is like.
Too much focus on endgame "mini-games" in new games. The focus is now getting evey single player who subbs to endgame with as little effort as possible. Then making everything at endgame accessible to all.
You got to level caps...yay so did anyone else with a heartbeat and 2hrs a day for a month.
Use to be more about leveling community and achieving things...not achieving stuff that is handed to you on a silver platter...because then it doesnt mean anything.
Does anyone else remember reaching or getting close to level cap meant you could stand around town while people "ooh" and"ahh'ed" over you and you would just help lower levels out...because that was more or less all there was to do? You did that becuase getting there was damn hard and most wouldnt get there.
This isnt about grinding...it wasnt grinding back then it was just playing the game and enjoying it for what it was.
Now i think we are one themepark generation away from hitting 50 after your first tutorial quest then queueing for death matches, capture the flag, and cross server dungeons...all activites where you wont form any community...
Problem is anyone trying to do something diffrent neglects the basic game mechanics and delivers a poorly preforming game with non-functional combat with a list of stuff everyone wants attached or already in game...earthrise just died this death.
Indy developers: Make a game that fuctions on its basic level then make it the sandbox we all want...no one wants a sandbox where combat and stability/client preformance are on ther TBA list...but where changing seasons and terraforming work (looking at you Xyson)
Reality of it all is that we might be getting older and society is changing. Younger people live in a world of instant gratification so why would they want to think during a game? Everything is isntant now...instant info on google...no need to read the book..instant communication...list goes on. I forsee a day down the road where we all have to go over to a private hacked UO server for our fix of real mmorpg...all while dodging the new cybercrimes division of the police...for you know...not playing "world of riftcraft wars 30k" like everyone else whos "normal"
THere are games out there that do this. The problem is that none of them are AAA producers, and you people dont want to support them to grow the community. If you want to complain fine, but if you want to do something about it go subscribe to someone trying to do something new or interesting. (i.e. Mortal online)
Mortal Online is neither new nor interesting. It is 2 years old and just as buggy and devoid of content as it was at launch.
Giving MO money is a terrible idea if you like sandbox games, it will just encourage more shovelware and inept implementation. The resulting reputation will kill the genre, as no one will invest - just take a look at the company behind MO, they have lost 75% of their value on the stock market.
As many of you know by now, in the past several years, I had the opportunity to work at CCP Games, developer/publisher of EVE Online. EVE has a non-standard model for character development that solves many of the problems with both the classic leveling system and the "earn by doing" skill systems, and we're going to encapsulate some of those ideas into the Pathfinder Online design.
In EVE, characters learn skills in real time. Players need not do anything other than select a skill to train. Even when the player is logged off, the character continues to train the selected skill. Skill training only stops if a character has completed a path of training and hasn't already queued a new skill to start training immediately thereafter.
Skills in EVE often add bonuses to various activities, and are prerequisites for using a variety of in-game gear, so a character with a lot of skill points is usually very flexible, able to do a lot of different things, and able to use a lot of different gear. Yet a character with far fewer skill points can be just as good as the more skilled character in one specific area if the player focuses on training just that set of skills. This means that newer players can compete effectively with older players even though newer characters will never "catch up" in terms of total skill points trained.
There are a couple of downsides to the EVE system. First, it's pretty confusing, especially for new players. Figuring out how all the skills, bonuses, gear, and benefits interact is daunting. The system has been constantly developed for more than a decade and it is rich, deep, and complex. It rewards those who take the time to master its intricacies, but that complexity can be a barrier to entry for the player who just wants a more casual experience. Second, even if you do understand the system it can be a challenge to figure out "how to get from here to there"—that is, in what order to train skills to both maximize the value of the training and to engage in a fun way with the game while the skills are trained. There are lots of helpful advice sites that try to give some guidance in this process, but the sheer complexity of the system means there's no "right" answer for most players.
The upsides outweigh these downsides. One huge upside is that unlike almost every other MMO, your character gets better in EVE even when you're playing another game! That makes it easy to make EVE your "second" MMO, the game you play in addition to something else (like World of Warcraft). It also levels the playing field between people who can only put in a few hours a day (or a few a week), and those who can play continuously. Finally, it encourages characters to specialize, but doesn't inflict overt penalties if the player doesn't do so. No skill training is ever wasted—the worst scenario is that you wasted some time training a skill you're not going to use right away. Your character's advancement doesn't create dead ends or "worthless builds."
&...
Infinity and Traveller AR also sound awesome for that Elite/Space Sim RT-combat, when one releases and the other seems to raise the bar on iOS - with tons of possibility for EXPLORATION
Er, exploration involves things to explore. Being afraid of what's around the next corner, and having extreme punishments for experimentation is actually fairly detrimental to a game's exploration.
A game can certainly make exploration a big part of gameplay without requiring excessive punishment. Most players really aren't interested in being punished during gameplay -- only the masochistic ones are, who make up a very small portion.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
If you want exploration to be a big part of the game, then why aren't you playing Uncharted Waters Online?
Death penalties that are excessively severe get annoying, especially when you die without doing anything wrong (e.g., due to lag).
The problem with paying $50/month for a game highly suited to your tastes is that it won't be highly suited to the tastes of very many other people, and certainly not enough to support the game even at $50/month.
"I am not even sure that is what made the old games "fun", but something sure is missing"
What made them fun was that things that are old and mundane to you now were new and exciting then. If a game is really exciting when you first play it, you still eventually get tired of it and quit. If you play another game that is a lot like the first game, then you're most of the way to being tired of the second game the day you start it. If you had played the second game before the first, you'd have enjoyed the second game a lot more and for a lot longer. You've changed more than the games you play have changed.
People change as well in their opinions about games and game mechanics. Many were much more open minded about it when UO/EQ released and just played the games for the fun of it. Over times, that openness changed into lists of things I hate in any game. That changes the players view on games.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
I quit SWTOR and resubbed Vanguard Saga of Heroes.
It had been 18 months since I played vanguard and it was great seeing my old level 50 sorcerer sitting there waiting for me.
Now I had a beast of a computer with a 2560x1440 monitor and a GTX 590.I maxed out all the settings and was happy with what I saw.
I went to some really low level mobs to get used to all my skills again and today I headed off to lvl 50 -55 area.
I had forgot all about the countering and mirroring of incoming spells. It was tough and challenging to react so fast to them. Total contrast to SWTOR and yeah I died several times and had to race back looking for my tombstone and you know what I loved it.I was finally really enjoying the fact each time I went for a 4 dotter I could die if I didn't get a crit or two.It felt rewarding overcoming a tough mob.
I just need to find a new guild to join now.
Maybe going free to play could really resurrect this gem of a game.
The population is low but looking at the forums there seems to be more and more people joining everyday.
If people want an old style hardcore MMO then it's here waiting to be explored.
I really don't like the new starter island they have.I much prefer the old racial area's like Martok for example.If you start at the starter island with a toon then I think alts can then choose starter island or racial area start.My pick is the racial area's.
Otherwise guys we have to hope EQ Next will be hardcore ....
Vangaurd is a steaming pile. Great that you and a few others like it but that game had it's one and only shot in the market and if failed. End of story.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Im glad MMO's aren't like they used to be... I don't want to spend hours getting my corpse back or spending acouple hours traveling to a new loctation. It was fun when I was younger and had time to spare, but nowadays I get on a few hours a week and just want to play and have alittle fun.
If people want an old style hardcore MMO then it's here waiting to be explored.
old style hardcore MMO eh? Is it hardcore because no one plays and you'll have to solo a bunch of group content? I played vanguard for a couple of months way back when, and while its a decent game I think calling it an old school hardcore game is a BIT much...
Unfortunately the genre of MMO's have been dumbed down so much to please the masses that people who loved the original MMO's (not discussing MUD's right now) like UO or EQ1 etc. will probably not like any of the current games out there.
What I think games lack now is a world where exploration(Vanguard) is a huge part of the game. Exploration involves wanting to see new things, encounter new things, and being afraid of what might be around the corner(Vanguard) I have not been afraid of dying in a game since the beginning of EQ1 and Ultima Online. In EQ1, you left all your stuff on your body and you had 1 week to either get it back or lose it forever...death in a dungeon became a whole new quest ("Get my body back"). Similarly in UO, when you died, your stuff remained on your corpse and anyone could come by and take your stuff (heck, even the monster who killed you took something and you had to kill him to get it back). Again, a whole new quest was just created - "GET MY CORPSE BACK." What I'm trying to say is something is missing with all these games that has taken the excitement out of playing.
Vanguards death penalty is not as steep as EQ but compared to WOW/AOC/RIFT/EQ2/SWTOR/TERA/GE2 and many more,it's steep.You lose xp and instead of actully going down a level you just go up in the red.The further you go up in level in red the more you have to gain that xp back before you can start xping in the yellow.
Vanguard really does give you that"i care if i die feeling"
I don't want this to become solely a "death penalty" discussion, as I am not even sure that is what made the old games "fun", but something sure is missing, and the fact that when i die, in pretty much ANY other current game, I don't even flinch, much less panic and need to round-up my friends for a "Search for and recover Alasti's Corpse quest."
Some super-wealthy programmer (who also feels the way I do and isn't making the game to maximize profits) needs to create a game that is NOT catered to the masses and focuses on what makes games fun, even if that doesn't make as much money as it might otherwise bring in. I for one would pay $50/month for a game where this was the case (or maybe even more).
I know this is a pipe-dream, but one can always hope.
Vanguard is the closet you will come to EQ1 in MMOs today,eq2 is far away from EQ1 even though it's meant to be set in the same world.I guess Luclin blowing up glued all the zones together in EQ2.
Info and data collection websites have ruined the exploration part, I think. Even EQ and UO had fansites, but we were still crawling out of the dial-up dark ages, so information, while still readily avaliable, took a lot longer to gather and read about.
Without severely removing components such as maps, tool-tips, and stuff, you're going to have a hard time getting exploration back to what it used to be.
Fan wikis will slowly crop up and one will take hold. Players will start dumping all of their knowledge into one spot and the game will end up like what we have today; people ping ponging from each "best" spot to another. Info will naturally spread through the multiple forms of communication players use now for games (Steam, Xfire, game-wide chat systems, voice chat, etc.). The issue lies on the user's end now, because you're willingly removing the veil of mystique that made a lot of olders games so enjoyable on the exploration front.
If we stop using all of these external tools avaliable to us, stop reading global chat channels, and get back to just enjoying the game (almost roleplaying, to an extent), you'd find a lot of what we did have is still there (it's just hidden), but it's not something the developers can readily fix. That's why developers are rolling with the punches and just making games that best suit the can't-figure-quest-out-just-look-it-up syndrome.
How about incorporating self control and just not looking at such sites?
It's just like these Primo Strategy Guides they have with nearly every new hot console games release. People buy them when they buy the game...use them religiously...then complain their is no challenge to the game and it went by too fast. Which in all actuality...is mostly due to them using the guide. I never use these things unless I had been absolutely stuck for a week ro so on a particular area (Which is still rare). I know the potential is there to look it up and continue on with what the next part was faster...but it's not a race, and the challenge of figuring things out yourself increases the gratification in the end.
That is what those sites were meant for, as well as the strategy guides...but players now use them almost exclusively to get to that item, or zone, or quest faster than the next guy so they can boast first. Weird and sad times we live in these days in the gaming world.
Er, exploration involves things to explore. Being afraid of what's around the next corner, and having extreme punishments for experimentation is actually fairly detrimental to a game's exploration.
A game can certainly make exploration a big part of gameplay without requiring excessive punishment. Most players really aren't interested in being punished during gameplay -- only the masochistic ones are, who make up a very small portion.
It's fairly detrimental to you...and whoever else may hold your opinions. But to others, it is not. It's called a difference in tastes, and I am sure there are many more have a taste for penalties than you think, and due to their own morals, personalities, etc, more suits what makes it fun to them than it does for you. And believe it or not, these people are entitled to games that suit their tastes too.
Problem is people like you who CONSTANTLY infest every thread expressing your deep rooted hatred for anything that doesn't allow you to be God-like and get everythng for practically nothing.
He wasn't saying he wanted to round a corner and be brutally murdered so he could sit in a death queue with negative experience and a 3 hour stat debuff for it to be fun to him. He is saying it would be nice to have that feeling of pure danger when exploring...where turning a corner could lead to glory, death, or danger. It makes you pay attention to your surroundings because it is dangerous...which is part of the fun. More so than being able to close your eyes and randomly run along slicing through dozens of mobs with little effort. MMO's now are like playing Eddie in Tekken 3...where you can stick your face on the floor and mash buttons and win without really having a grasp on the character. Or like any sport now for youth. Now, even the losing team gets a trophy. What does that teach? Other than you can fail and still be rewarded without having to really put forth effort to get better in order to win.
Er, exploration involves things to explore. Being afraid of what's around the next corner, and having extreme punishments for experimentation is actually fairly detrimental to a game's exploration.
A game can certainly make exploration a big part of gameplay without requiring excessive punishment. Most players really aren't interested in being punished during gameplay -- only the masochistic ones are, who make up a very small portion.
He wasn't saying he wanted to round a corner and be brutally murdered so he could sit in a death queue with negative experience and a 3 hour stat debuff for it to be fun to him. He is saying it would be nice to have that feeling of pure danger when exploring...where turning a corner could lead to glory, death, or danger. It makes you pay attention to your surroundings because it is dangerous...which is part of the fun.
Thats exactly what I am saying Goadgod. You hit the nail on the head.
So, if I understand you right.....You want someone other than yourself, to fork over all the cash and time to make YOU a great game, as defined by you for no profits?
At its most fundamental, thats just about it. If there was a profitable market for those types of games, believe me, they would exist. But given what these types of games cost to develop, and the major talent and experience required, its just not going to happen, any time soon.
Once the state of middleware and technology advances to the point that a handful of people can deal with the complex apps required for these games, we may see such games. Until then...
So, if I understand you right.....You want someone other than yourself, to fork over all the cash and time to make YOU a great game, as defined by you for no profits?
At its most fundamental, thats just about it. If there was a profitable market for those types of games, believe me, they would exist. But given what these types of games cost to develop, and the major talent and experience required, its just not going to happen, any time soon.
Once the state of middleware and technology advances to the point that a handful of people can deal with the complex apps required for these games, we may see such games. Until then...
In this case the current type of game would be so outdated that no one would play it.
So, if I understand you right.....You want someone other than yourself, to fork over all the cash and time to make YOU a great game, as defined by you for no profits?
At its most fundamental, thats just about it. If there was a profitable market for those types of games, believe me, they would exist. But given what these types of games cost to develop, and the major talent and experience required, its just not going to happen, any time soon.
Once the state of middleware and technology advances to the point that a handful of people can deal with the complex apps required for these games, we may see such games. Until then...
I am quite sure someone said there is no profitable market for walkmans before the ipod came, or somewhat-old-school rpgs before skyrim.
What actually works in favor of "us" is the market saturation with wishy-washy games, the more there are, the more likely someone will dare a step in a different direction.
I totally agree with you. I recently got a new gaming laptop, and instead of throwing myself into an MMO, I tried Skyrim instead.
O.... M.... G.... I was stunned. This is what I'd been missing. Dragons were landing on my head out of nowhere! Such a gritty but beautiful world to explore, craft and adventure!!
Wait, but what about socialising? Don't you miss seeing other players, I hear you ask. Ummm, NO. I'm an older player now (with lots of demands on my time) and I think unless you play a lot (every night, for example), it is hard to be part of a guild and really make friends.
And in the open world of MMOs these days, maybe 1 encounter in 50 is enjoyable in any sense. And it doesn't make up for the 49 unpleasant ones or making the mistake of reading general chat etc. And then there is PUGing... gah, forget it. The way people behave these days I am much happier in a single player RPG.
And hey, I only had to pay once for Skyrim. So, farewell MMOs, at least for a time.
And OP, good luck in your own search for gaming happiness.
So, if I understand you right.....You want someone other than yourself, to fork over all the cash and time to make YOU a great game, as defined by you for no profits?
At its most fundamental, thats just about it. If there was a profitable market for those types of games, believe me, they would exist. But given what these types of games cost to develop, and the major talent and experience required, its just not going to happen, any time soon.
Once the state of middleware and technology advances to the point that a handful of people can deal with the complex apps required for these games, we may see such games. Until then...
I am quite sure someone said there is no profitable market for walkmans before the ipod came, or somewhat-old-school rpgs before skyrim.
What actually works in favor of "us" is the market saturation with wishy-washy games, the more there are, the more likely someone will dare a step in a different direction.
Flame on!
Until technology advanced to the point that the walkman and other such became cost effective to produce, there wasn't a profitable market for them. ^^
The first person to take a step in a different direction, is unlikely to do so with millions upon millions of other peoples money at risk... Thats why the business suits (not the Dev's) call most of the shots in major projects. A "different direction" is by definition risky. Damn few people are going to take that risk (or allow that risk to be taken) with many millions of dollars at stake.
Until these types of projects no longer require millions and millions, the best we can hope for is small changes, that add up over time. Whats funny (and tragic at the same time), is that the first major group that can in fact find another approach is likely to have a run away hit on their hands. But no one in their right mind is going to risk the amount of money, talent, and experience required to achieve that.
So, if I understand you right.....You want someone other than yourself, to fork over all the cash and time to make YOU a great game, as defined by you for no profits?
That's not what he said. What he said was someone who didn't create the game to MAXIMIZE PROFITS.
So, take it from an old CPA, companies that work to 'maximize' profits don't. Because they forget that customer service, which doesn't maximize profits, has benefits. They forget that functionality has benefits. They forget that robust, quality products have benefits.
The epitome of 'maximizing profits' was GM during the 1970s. Or look at EA. That's a company driven by maximizing profits and not making good games.
My daughter and I were both big time Sims fans. Then they started to churn the franchise, finally getting us to Sims3 which I bought and played for about 10 hours. And haven't touched one since. My daughter still plays... But she no longer buys the 'content' packs or even all the major expansions.
And I could go on and on about over-hyped failures... But I think most us understand that in their desire to 'maximize profits' EA has burned a lot of bridges with a lot of fans in their trying to get every possible nickle out of them for the least amount of return on the consumer's dollar...
And now... Well, over the past four years it's been a few successes and a LOT of failures and disappointing sales... To the tune of EA/BioWare having lost almost $3 billion in the past four years. Despite having some of the biggest IPs in the game market.
I just made the big mistake of going back to WoW after two years, BIG MISTAKE !
What I got was a pure lobby game. Everyone was either in Stormwind or a Dungeon EVERYONE !....I used the "Who " panel often to do searches of all levels to see where the people were at, sure enough Stormwind or Dungeons.
I kid you not....I did Deadmines, Wailing Caverns, Rangefire Chasm and Shadowfang Keep all in one hour. ONE HOUR 4 DUNGEONS. When done I was 4 levels higher and had to run around in lower level areas with no one else in any zone to get my harvesting equivalent to my level.
Dungeons for my level 78 were no better.....They turned it into a super fast leveling lobby game !!!
They killed my EQ2 by turning it F2P
They killed my D&D Online by making it F2P
I would give LOTRO a good chance ( only played the bata ) but they made it F2P.
I have no were else to go but maybe back to Vanguard ( very hardcore but low population ) or wait for The Secret World coming out in April !!!
EQ2 was dying. They didn't kill it with F2P and the servers are more dynamic now than ever.
DDO was dead and it was F2P or pull the plug.
LOTRO peaked at about 300K in the old model. With F2P it now has MORE subscribers. I don't mean accounts. I mean SUBSCRIBERS. Add in about half the people who are in some sort of F2P/occassional subscriber mode and the game is rocking.
So, honestly, I don't get your problem. I've played all those games in F2P and EQ2 and LOTRO in subcription only. F2P hasn't done a single bad thing to any of those games.
Until technology advanced to the point that the walkman and other such became cost effective to produce, there wasn't a profitable market for them. ^^
The first person to take a step in a different direction, is unlikely to do so with millions upon millions of other peoples money at risk... Thats why the business suits (not the Dev's) call most of the shots in major projects. A "different direction" is by definition risky. Damn few people are going to take that risk (or allow that risk to be taken) with many millions of dollars at stake.
Until these types of projects no longer require millions and millions, the best we can hope for is small changes, that add up over time. Whats funny (and tragic at the same time), is that the first major group that can in fact find another approach is likely to have a run away hit on their hands. But no one in their right mind is going to risk the amount of money, talent, and experience required to achieve that.
This type of mindset is exactly the problem. And as the person you responded to made an example of; apple is a great counter argument to this. As is google, Anet, Pixar, etc... Granted the list is short. And you're right, these types of divergents from the norm are rare. We just don't see them that often. However, they are more common now then they ever used to be.
That said, each and every company I mentioned above took that risk, and they were able to do so with OTHER people's money. Was it a huge risk? Of course, but what happened after? Other companies now decided 'this is how we need to make our products', and now we have clones of all those products that we were told would be 'impossible / impractical / foolish' to make only a few years earlier.
MMOs are no different. Are they expensive? Absolutely; and while no one is claiming they are simple, that's not a really good excuse to turn a blind eye to the problems MMOs have had for over a decade now. With the way markets work, one of 2 things always happen when things are in a state of stagnation. Either the market fizzles out (not necessarily dissappearing, but becoming a shadow of it's former self), or someone takes a risk, and creates a new market.
Er, exploration involves things to explore. Being afraid of what's around the next corner, and having extreme punishments for experimentation is actually fairly detrimental to a game's exploration.
A game can certainly make exploration a big part of gameplay without requiring excessive punishment. Most players really aren't interested in being punished during gameplay -- only the masochistic ones are, who make up a very small portion.
It's fairly detrimental to you...and whoever else may hold your opinions. But to others, it is not. It's called a difference in tastes, and I am sure there are many more have a taste for penalties than you think, and due to their own morals, personalities, etc, more suits what makes it fun to them than it does for you. And believe it or not, these people are entitled to games that suit their tastes too.
Problem is people like you who CONSTANTLY infest every thread expressing your deep rooted hatred for anything that doesn't allow you to be God-like and get everythng for practically nothing.
He wasn't saying he wanted to round a corner and be brutally murdered so he could sit in a death queue with negative experience and a 3 hour stat debuff for it to be fun to him. He is saying it would be nice to have that feeling of pure danger when exploring...where turning a corner could lead to glory, death, or danger. It makes you pay attention to your surroundings because it is dangerous...which is part of the fun. More so than being able to close your eyes and randomly run along slicing through dozens of mobs with little effort. MMO's now are like playing Eddie in Tekken 3...where you can stick your face on the floor and mash buttons and win without really having a grasp on the character. Or like any sport now for youth. Now, even the losing team gets a trophy. What does that teach? Other than you can fail and still be rewarded without having to really put forth effort to get better in order to win.
I was one-month and done in SWTOR for just these reasons... If you died in a quest, except for one of the smuggler quests, there was no penalty besides some minor, non-affective item wear. You didn't even have to listen to the stupid 'pre-fight-boss-rant' again. You just got up, healed, re-buffed then attacked.
IMHO they have taken the player out of MMORPG, I made a post earlier this week about what I feel is lacking in these games and that is the player portion. Take SWG, players made ther best gear, banded together to build cities, mass PvP etc, In DAOC we banded together to take a keep and get a warband going, the devs nor the game pushed us along that path. I could go on and on but until Devs let the players actually make a difference in an MMO we are looking at a dying genre. Hell in Planetside it was all player driven activities. Getting a rez in EQ or you would lose your level actually made people play together and build a community.
I know EvE does this before that arguement is brought up but EvE is not for everyone, when people lament about the early WoW days and what they miss, it is the player interaction massive battles at TM or Ashenvale. The devs need to give us freedom within the game and until that happens we will continue to get these worthless games.
Comments
I'm making PvE hard, support me! I know, I know, product first. Working on it. If I ever get into alpha you will know what hard PvE is like.
Too much focus on endgame "mini-games" in new games. The focus is now getting evey single player who subbs to endgame with as little effort as possible. Then making everything at endgame accessible to all.
You got to level caps...yay so did anyone else with a heartbeat and 2hrs a day for a month.
Use to be more about leveling community and achieving things...not achieving stuff that is handed to you on a silver platter...because then it doesnt mean anything.
Does anyone else remember reaching or getting close to level cap meant you could stand around town while people "ooh" and"ahh'ed" over you and you would just help lower levels out...because that was more or less all there was to do? You did that becuase getting there was damn hard and most wouldnt get there.
This isnt about grinding...it wasnt grinding back then it was just playing the game and enjoying it for what it was.
Now i think we are one themepark generation away from hitting 50 after your first tutorial quest then queueing for death matches, capture the flag, and cross server dungeons...all activites where you wont form any community...
Problem is anyone trying to do something diffrent neglects the basic game mechanics and delivers a poorly preforming game with non-functional combat with a list of stuff everyone wants attached or already in game...earthrise just died this death.
Indy developers: Make a game that fuctions on its basic level then make it the sandbox we all want...no one wants a sandbox where combat and stability/client preformance are on ther TBA list...but where changing seasons and terraforming work (looking at you Xyson)
Reality of it all is that we might be getting older and society is changing. Younger people live in a world of instant gratification so why would they want to think during a game? Everything is isntant now...instant info on google...no need to read the book..instant communication...list goes on. I forsee a day down the road where we all have to go over to a private hacked UO server for our fix of real mmorpg...all while dodging the new cybercrimes division of the police...for you know...not playing "world of riftcraft wars 30k" like everyone else whos "normal"
Mortal Online is neither new nor interesting. It is 2 years old and just as buggy and devoid of content as it was at launch.
Giving MO money is a terrible idea if you like sandbox games, it will just encourage more shovelware and inept implementation. The resulting reputation will kill the genre, as no one will invest - just take a look at the company behind MO, they have lost 75% of their value on the stock market.
Hope springs eternal...
EvE is the vision and it's already inspired eg Pathfinger Online:
&...
Infinity and Traveller AR also sound awesome for that Elite/Space Sim RT-combat, when one releases and the other seems to raise the bar on iOS - with tons of possibility for EXPLORATION
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem
Er, exploration involves things to explore. Being afraid of what's around the next corner, and having extreme punishments for experimentation is actually fairly detrimental to a game's exploration.
A game can certainly make exploration a big part of gameplay without requiring excessive punishment. Most players really aren't interested in being punished during gameplay -- only the masochistic ones are, who make up a very small portion.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
People change as well in their opinions about games and game mechanics. Many were much more open minded about it when UO/EQ released and just played the games for the fun of it. Over times, that openness changed into lists of things I hate in any game. That changes the players view on games.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
Vangaurd is a steaming pile. Great that you and a few others like it but that game had it's one and only shot in the market and if failed. End of story.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
Im glad MMO's aren't like they used to be... I don't want to spend hours getting my corpse back or spending acouple hours traveling to a new loctation. It was fun when I was younger and had time to spare, but nowadays I get on a few hours a week and just want to play and have alittle fun.
Vanguard is the closet you will come to EQ1 in MMOs today,eq2 is far away from EQ1 even though it's meant to be set in the same world.I guess Luclin blowing up glued all the zones together in EQ2.
How about incorporating self control and just not looking at such sites?
It's just like these Primo Strategy Guides they have with nearly every new hot console games release. People buy them when they buy the game...use them religiously...then complain their is no challenge to the game and it went by too fast. Which in all actuality...is mostly due to them using the guide. I never use these things unless I had been absolutely stuck for a week ro so on a particular area (Which is still rare). I know the potential is there to look it up and continue on with what the next part was faster...but it's not a race, and the challenge of figuring things out yourself increases the gratification in the end.
That is what those sites were meant for, as well as the strategy guides...but players now use them almost exclusively to get to that item, or zone, or quest faster than the next guy so they can boast first. Weird and sad times we live in these days in the gaming world.
It's fairly detrimental to you...and whoever else may hold your opinions. But to others, it is not. It's called a difference in tastes, and I am sure there are many more have a taste for penalties than you think, and due to their own morals, personalities, etc, more suits what makes it fun to them than it does for you. And believe it or not, these people are entitled to games that suit their tastes too.
Problem is people like you who CONSTANTLY infest every thread expressing your deep rooted hatred for anything that doesn't allow you to be God-like and get everythng for practically nothing.
He wasn't saying he wanted to round a corner and be brutally murdered so he could sit in a death queue with negative experience and a 3 hour stat debuff for it to be fun to him. He is saying it would be nice to have that feeling of pure danger when exploring...where turning a corner could lead to glory, death, or danger. It makes you pay attention to your surroundings because it is dangerous...which is part of the fun. More so than being able to close your eyes and randomly run along slicing through dozens of mobs with little effort. MMO's now are like playing Eddie in Tekken 3...where you can stick your face on the floor and mash buttons and win without really having a grasp on the character. Or like any sport now for youth. Now, even the losing team gets a trophy. What does that teach? Other than you can fail and still be rewarded without having to really put forth effort to get better in order to win.
At its most fundamental, thats just about it. If there was a profitable market for those types of games, believe me, they would exist. But given what these types of games cost to develop, and the major talent and experience required, its just not going to happen, any time soon.
Once the state of middleware and technology advances to the point that a handful of people can deal with the complex apps required for these games, we may see such games. Until then...
In this case the current type of game would be so outdated that no one would play it.
I am quite sure someone said there is no profitable market for walkmans before the ipod came, or somewhat-old-school rpgs before skyrim.
What actually works in favor of "us" is the market saturation with wishy-washy games, the more there are, the more likely someone will dare a step in a different direction.
Flame on!
Give me money and I (try to) make an interesting MMORPG.
Let's play Fallen Earth (blind, 300 episodes)
Let's play Guild Wars 2 (blind, 45 episodes)
Dear OP,
I totally agree with you. I recently got a new gaming laptop, and instead of throwing myself into an MMO, I tried Skyrim instead.
O.... M.... G.... I was stunned. This is what I'd been missing. Dragons were landing on my head out of nowhere! Such a gritty but beautiful world to explore, craft and adventure!!
Wait, but what about socialising? Don't you miss seeing other players, I hear you ask. Ummm, NO. I'm an older player now (with lots of demands on my time) and I think unless you play a lot (every night, for example), it is hard to be part of a guild and really make friends.
And in the open world of MMOs these days, maybe 1 encounter in 50 is enjoyable in any sense. And it doesn't make up for the 49 unpleasant ones or making the mistake of reading general chat etc. And then there is PUGing... gah, forget it. The way people behave these days I am much happier in a single player RPG.
And hey, I only had to pay once for Skyrim. So, farewell MMOs, at least for a time.
And OP, good luck in your own search for gaming happiness.
Until technology advanced to the point that the walkman and other such became cost effective to produce, there wasn't a profitable market for them. ^^
The first person to take a step in a different direction, is unlikely to do so with millions upon millions of other peoples money at risk... Thats why the business suits (not the Dev's) call most of the shots in major projects. A "different direction" is by definition risky. Damn few people are going to take that risk (or allow that risk to be taken) with many millions of dollars at stake.
Until these types of projects no longer require millions and millions, the best we can hope for is small changes, that add up over time. Whats funny (and tragic at the same time), is that the first major group that can in fact find another approach is likely to have a run away hit on their hands. But no one in their right mind is going to risk the amount of money, talent, and experience required to achieve that.
That's not what he said. What he said was someone who didn't create the game to MAXIMIZE PROFITS.
So, take it from an old CPA, companies that work to 'maximize' profits don't. Because they forget that customer service, which doesn't maximize profits, has benefits. They forget that functionality has benefits. They forget that robust, quality products have benefits.
The epitome of 'maximizing profits' was GM during the 1970s. Or look at EA. That's a company driven by maximizing profits and not making good games.
My daughter and I were both big time Sims fans. Then they started to churn the franchise, finally getting us to Sims3 which I bought and played for about 10 hours. And haven't touched one since. My daughter still plays... But she no longer buys the 'content' packs or even all the major expansions.
And I could go on and on about over-hyped failures... But I think most us understand that in their desire to 'maximize profits' EA has burned a lot of bridges with a lot of fans in their trying to get every possible nickle out of them for the least amount of return on the consumer's dollar...
And now... Well, over the past four years it's been a few successes and a LOT of failures and disappointing sales... To the tune of EA/BioWare having lost almost $3 billion in the past four years. Despite having some of the biggest IPs in the game market.
I agree with the OP. There a few options out there to hold us over until the niche market MO is made.
Check out EQ, the presogession server isnt' bad. And there are EQ classic and UO classic options out there as well.
EQ2 was dying. They didn't kill it with F2P and the servers are more dynamic now than ever.
DDO was dead and it was F2P or pull the plug.
LOTRO peaked at about 300K in the old model. With F2P it now has MORE subscribers. I don't mean accounts. I mean SUBSCRIBERS. Add in about half the people who are in some sort of F2P/occassional subscriber mode and the game is rocking.
So, honestly, I don't get your problem. I've played all those games in F2P and EQ2 and LOTRO in subcription only. F2P hasn't done a single bad thing to any of those games.
This type of mindset is exactly the problem. And as the person you responded to made an example of; apple is a great counter argument to this. As is google, Anet, Pixar, etc... Granted the list is short. And you're right, these types of divergents from the norm are rare. We just don't see them that often. However, they are more common now then they ever used to be.
That said, each and every company I mentioned above took that risk, and they were able to do so with OTHER people's money. Was it a huge risk? Of course, but what happened after? Other companies now decided 'this is how we need to make our products', and now we have clones of all those products that we were told would be 'impossible / impractical / foolish' to make only a few years earlier.
MMOs are no different. Are they expensive? Absolutely; and while no one is claiming they are simple, that's not a really good excuse to turn a blind eye to the problems MMOs have had for over a decade now. With the way markets work, one of 2 things always happen when things are in a state of stagnation. Either the market fizzles out (not necessarily dissappearing, but becoming a shadow of it's former self), or someone takes a risk, and creates a new market.
I was one-month and done in SWTOR for just these reasons... If you died in a quest, except for one of the smuggler quests, there was no penalty besides some minor, non-affective item wear. You didn't even have to listen to the stupid 'pre-fight-boss-rant' again. You just got up, healed, re-buffed then attacked.
IMHO they have taken the player out of MMORPG, I made a post earlier this week about what I feel is lacking in these games and that is the player portion. Take SWG, players made ther best gear, banded together to build cities, mass PvP etc, In DAOC we banded together to take a keep and get a warband going, the devs nor the game pushed us along that path. I could go on and on but until Devs let the players actually make a difference in an MMO we are looking at a dying genre. Hell in Planetside it was all player driven activities. Getting a rez in EQ or you would lose your level actually made people play together and build a community.
I know EvE does this before that arguement is brought up but EvE is not for everyone, when people lament about the early WoW days and what they miss, it is the player interaction massive battles at TM or Ashenvale. The devs need to give us freedom within the game and until that happens we will continue to get these worthless games.
Just my two cents for what it is worth.