I agree with Sonya here. There has been more than one instance where I was busy playing a game, and the vocal whineority (who ususally spend more time on the boards than actually playing) cried up a storm until something that was working just fine for the majority was changed. It can be a bit annoying. SWG was famous for listening to the minorty of whiners and where did it get them? yeah, dead.
DAoC, Lineage 2, etc etc still plugging along ignoring everyone they may not post the numbers they did in their prime, but they are still very much alive.
Bottom line; The vocal mionority does way more harm than good in my opinion.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
I agree with Sonya here. There has been more than one instance where I was busy playing a game, and the vocal whineority (who ususally spend more time on the boards than actually playing) cried up a storm until something that was working just fine for the majority was changed. It can be a bit annoying. SWG was famous for listening to the minorty of whiners and where did it get them? yeah, dead.
DAoC, Lineage 2, etc etc still plugging along ignoring everyone they may not post the numbers they did in their prime, but they are still very much alive.
Bottom line; The vocal mionority does way more harm than good in my opinion.
yep esspiccly if you dont have serious beta testers
I agree with Sonya here. There has been more than one instance where I was busy playing a game, and the vocal whineority (who ususally spend more time on the boards than actually playing) cried up a storm until something that was working just fine for the majority was changed. It can be a bit annoying. SWG was famous for listening to the minorty of whiners and where did it get them? yeah, dead.
DAoC, Lineage 2, etc etc still plugging along ignoring everyone they may not post the numbers they did in their prime, but they are still very much alive.
Bottom line; The vocal mionority does way more harm than good in my opinion.
yep esspiccly if you dont have serious beta testers
Er... sometimes you SHOULD listen to the players. Like, SOE not reversing the NGE in SWG.
Or, DAoC not listening to its players about /level 20, the instances, ToA... there's a reason DAoC is down to one server now, when it used to be the second most popular MMO out there, and its because Mythic started litsening to EA instead of its players.
But AoC, an example of a bad vocal minority... when a bunch of WoW raiding guilds got into early beta and complained about how hard the game was AoC made it easier and easier until it was essentially a WoW clone that wouldn't even challenge a toddler with brain damage.
Ah, how entertaining! Nothing quite like seeing our opinions being marginalized by an alleged Community Rep on a website where people in the community come to exchange feedback and ideas about their favorite pasttime.
Ah, how entertaining! Nothing quite like seeing our opinions being marginalized by an alleged Community Rep on a website where people in the community come to exchange feedback and ideas about their favorite pasttime.
Kind of an amusing post Sanya. Since no one ever listened to the vocal minority at DAoC, where nerfing classes and abilities into oblivion was SOP. And of course the famous Trials of Atlantis fiasco that did a major deflate on the playerbase. Sometimes the vocal minority is screaming for a darn good reason and ignoring them is the wrong move.
I couldn't have said it better, I have tried to figure out what to say and then I found your post and I think you summed it up nicely. I think too few people recall just how heavy of hand the Mythic CR used back in the day - but it was enough that it finally drove me away from the game. Mythic didn't care for criticism in the least. You(Sanya) and Scott were very quick to shut down anyone that might disagree with Mythics handling of things. Rarely was their room for debate.
You say that as if there were official DAOC forums... I don't recall that at any time.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
i can promise i will continue to bitch, moan, complain, whine, QQ, and tell it how it is. its more constructive than "If you don't like it don't play it."
/flex
Does that make you part of the solution, or part of the problem?
It's a quote from a response Sanya gave the DAoC community back in the day.
Her perception of the internet gaming community basically boils down to us all being a bunch of "...basement dwelling trogs...", so any perceived altruism you see in her article should be taken with a grain of salt.
"But, hey, I’ll give you some new information – the marketing girl and I both thought you were hot. Holding that opinion was especially disconcerting for me because after all the back and forth over your banning, I’d totally pictured you as a basement dwelling trog. But hot where hot is due. So there you go." - Sanya Weathers
i can promise i will continue to bitch, moan, complain, whine, QQ, and tell it how it is. its more constructive than "If you don't like it don't play it."
/flex
Does that make you part of the solution, or part of the problem?
It's a quote from a response Sanya gave the DAoC community back in the day.
Her perception of the internet gaming community basically boils down to us all being a bunch of "...basement dwelling trogs...", so any perceived altruism you see in her article should be taken with a grain of salt.
"But, hey, I’ll give you some new information – the marketing girl and I both thought you were hot. Holding that opinion was especially disconcerting for me because after all the back and forth over your banning, I’d totally pictured you as a basement dwelling trog. But hot where hot is due. So there you go." - Sanya Weathers
garv it hink thats what sanya was saying in here post sometimes you have to listen to them soemtimes it sbest not to depending on what the qq is about you have ot be able to understand whatt he blog is saying
The problem is the VM bully and drown out any other voice. The forum moderators let this happen, and the forums usually only have one side that frequents the forum. The side that is doing the bullying.
So basically the article/rant translates into: "You bunch of minority no-nothings should just shut the hell up and take what you're given because the game developers know what's best for you.
Currently playing SWTOR and it's MUCH better than it was at launch.
Any dev that does anything will find they have their own VM. If they follow the rules, it's wrong. If they break the rules, it's wrong. No matter how much they do it's either too much, not enough, or both.
The reason is, these people are bored silly. They've been following the genre for a decade now. They've made the Kessel run in less than 12 parsecs, they've climbed the mounts of Azeroth, they've done thousands if not millions of FedEx missions. They've seen the genre grow from 2D sprites to half-naked hi-poly elvens. They've played game after game after game, to the point where they all seem to blur together as some sort of bad recurring dream.
But more than anything, they're starting to realize one thing. The cake is a lie. In the end, all the games, all the achievement, all the effort amount to nothing more than a large waste of time. They don't like this.
They have grand ideas on how a game could be perfect. Anyone shaping a game in any even a slightly different fashion needs to be educated on their epiphany. They feel it their duty to speak out, loudly if needed.
Developers shouldn't be angry at these people. It's not their fault. The industry has failed them. The "magic" of first-love with an MMORPG cannot be recreated.
After a thousand iterations, each new game is just another "La Petite Mort" with little if any satisfaction. They want the "magic" to come back, if only for a few moments.
This reminds me of an example I am often refering to when debating with the VM on these boards, it's about the fact that some of the most memorable experiences of freedom I ever had were experienced while driving my very first pontiac sunbird. It's so much more about how fresh an experience is. Truth be told I feel for those who may have reached the point you speak about in your reply it's sad that if these people have evolved beyond what is being offered they can't simply find something else they enjoy.
The problem is the VM bully and drown out any other voice. The forum moderators let this happen, and the forums usually only have one side that frequents the forum. The side that is doing the bullying.
Shiver me timbers - gotta watch out for them forum bullys. Just hand 'em your opportunity to express your opinion at the door and skitter by.
News flash - If you've been a "hardcore member" of a MMO forum since 2003 with 651(+) posts and you're discussing the opinions of a MMO forum community manager surrounding the pros and cons of methods to handle different stereotypes of angry customers..... and you resonate with those stereotypes strongly enough that your mind references being bullied as a child, then my friend, I heartily proclaim that you too are a member of the Vocal Minority.
<Cyberdeck7> Welcome to the guild Golelorn! I put some armor in the bank for you!
I agree with Sonya here. There has been more than one instance where I was busy playing a game, and the vocal whineority (who ususally spend more time on the boards than actually playing) cried up a storm until something that was working just fine for the majority was changed. It can be a bit annoying. SWG was famous for listening to the minorty of whiners and where did it get them? yeah, dead.
DAoC, Lineage 2, etc etc still plugging along ignoring everyone they may not post the numbers they did in their prime, but they are still very much alive.
Bottom line; The vocal mionority does way more harm than good in my opinion.
If only the people at Mythic, including Sonya had listened to the vocal minority she decries here perhaps DAOC wouldn't be a dead shell of what was arguably once one of the best PVP MMO's.
In this particular case, I think the minority had a much better handle on how the game should have been developed and this post serves to show how out of touch she and the other folks at Mythic really were.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
The problem is the VM bully and drown out any other voice. The forum moderators let this happen, and the forums usually only have one side that frequents the forum. The side that is doing the bullying.
Shiver me timbers - gotta watch out for them forum bullys. Just hand 'em your opportunity to express your opinion at the door and skitter by.
News flash - If you've been a "hardcore member" of a MMO forum since 2003 with 651(+) posts and you're discussing the opinions of a MMO forum community manager surrounding the pros and cons of methods to handle different stereotypes of angry customers..... and you resonate with those stereotypes strongly enough that your mind references being bullied as a child, then my friend, I heartily proclaim that you too are a member of the Vocal Minority.
Welcome to the guild Golelorn! I put some armor in the bank for you!
Well said, and thanks. I especially like the part about "Man up, Devs."
It would be nice if MMOGs came with a clear mission statement to the players, telling us what kind of game it is, what the devs intend, and what it won't be, and having enough vision and heart to stick to it.
Have played: Everquest, Asheron's Call, Horizons, Everquest2, World of Warcraft, Lord of the Rings Online, Warhammer, Age of Conan, Darkfall
It's Very hard to take advice from veteran MMO players because most game companys have a solid group of very educated people whom they trust.
I have played or wasted a great many years on certain MMOs but when I see a bad feature I get vocal about it. it's called arm chair development.
I could cite the many years I watched game developers go down that road and warned them of the outcome but I get ignored and my post get obliterated by flames and accusation of being a troll.
For Me MMOs are dead, jaded I know. but fans or vets of other MMOs can't change developers decisions about a bad feature simply because they have a plan that was given to them and they won't risk job to rebel against corporate bottom lines.
It's good to see passion still though. even if it's misguided or downright vile. it means people are clamoring for fun changes to their favorite MMO and wont back down.
Actually, she made some good points....but regardless the message I get from this is, "our game is being hurt by trolls, please stop." Makes me wonder moreso about the state of the game.
Incognito www.incognito-gaming.us "You're either with us or against us"
If the vocal minority was not vocal, what would the community be?
A community that just took what was handed to them, whatever it was?
A community that would not give feedback about a feature or a change in the development process?
I could see why from a developer point of view it may be nice. But usually the vocal minority is correct about its views.
Developers: If there is a huge outcry about some paradim shift in your development then choose to not listen to it at your peril. I could cite SWG or DAOC here for some of the changes they forcefed their populace that either hurt the growth of the game or sped its downfall.
Is the vocal minority always right? No. But when enough of that vocal minority all inputs about the same topic, it is generally a major issue and lots of thought should go into deloping against the wishes of the vocal minority.
This statement alone makes your article come across as just wrong. The truth is the majority of the vocal minority are made up of people with no real clue how game development works and are spoilt brats wanting their instant wins right now.
Are people really equating what she's talking about to developers completely ignoring the concerns of legitimate problems within their game? How dense can you be? I'm especially surprised to see such a reaction out of some clearly eloquent people. For someone very smart, this shouldn't have gone so far over your head.
Comments
I agree with Sonya here. There has been more than one instance where I was busy playing a game, and the vocal whineority (who ususally spend more time on the boards than actually playing) cried up a storm until something that was working just fine for the majority was changed. It can be a bit annoying. SWG was famous for listening to the minorty of whiners and where did it get them? yeah, dead.
DAoC, Lineage 2, etc etc still plugging along ignoring everyone they may not post the numbers they did in their prime, but they are still very much alive.
Bottom line; The vocal mionority does way more harm than good in my opinion.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
yep esspiccly if you dont have serious beta testers
Er... sometimes you SHOULD listen to the players. Like, SOE not reversing the NGE in SWG.
Or, DAoC not listening to its players about /level 20, the instances, ToA... there's a reason DAoC is down to one server now, when it used to be the second most popular MMO out there, and its because Mythic started litsening to EA instead of its players.
But AoC, an example of a bad vocal minority... when a bunch of WoW raiding guilds got into early beta and complained about how hard the game was AoC made it easier and easier until it was essentially a WoW clone that wouldn't even challenge a toddler with brain damage.
Ah, how entertaining! Nothing quite like seeing our opinions being marginalized by an alleged Community Rep on a website where people in the community come to exchange feedback and ideas about their favorite pasttime.
Wow nice article, the first game that came to mind was EVE!
Cast your vote: The importance of character customisation
Are we still talking about mmorpg.com ;p
You say that as if there were official DAOC forums... I don't recall that at any time.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
It's a quote from a response Sanya gave the DAoC community back in the day.
Her perception of the internet gaming community basically boils down to us all being a bunch of "...basement dwelling trogs...", so any perceived altruism you see in her article should be taken with a grain of salt.
"But, hey, I’ll give you some new information – the marketing girl and I both thought you were hot. Holding that opinion was especially disconcerting for me because after all the back and forth over your banning, I’d totally pictured you as a basement dwelling trog. But hot where hot is due. So there you go." - Sanya Weathers
http://eatingbees.brokentoys.org/2010/10/13/yes-i-saw-the-louse-blog/
Sayna has always been a very comical/tongue in cheek poster.
"I do not do/like/approve of this thing, therefore no one else should." Uh... go away.
Couldn't have said it better.
garv it hink thats what sanya was saying in here post sometimes you have to listen to them soemtimes it sbest not to depending on what the qq is about you have ot be able to understand whatt he blog is saying
The problem is the VM bully and drown out any other voice. The forum moderators let this happen, and the forums usually only have one side that frequents the forum. The side that is doing the bullying.
So basically the article/rant translates into: "You bunch of minority no-nothings should just shut the hell up and take what you're given because the game developers know what's best for you.
Currently playing SWTOR and it's MUCH better than it was at launch.
This reminds me of an example I am often refering to when debating with the VM on these boards, it's about the fact that some of the most memorable experiences of freedom I ever had were experienced while driving my very first pontiac sunbird. It's so much more about how fresh an experience is. Truth be told I feel for those who may have reached the point you speak about in your reply it's sad that if these people have evolved beyond what is being offered they can't simply find something else they enjoy.
Shiver me timbers - gotta watch out for them forum bullys. Just hand 'em your opportunity to express your opinion at the door and skitter by.
News flash - If you've been a "hardcore member" of a MMO forum since 2003 with 651(+) posts and you're discussing the opinions of a MMO forum community manager surrounding the pros and cons of methods to handle different stereotypes of angry customers..... and you resonate with those stereotypes strongly enough that your mind references being bullied as a child, then my friend, I heartily proclaim that you too are a member of the Vocal Minority.
<Cyberdeck7> Welcome to the guild Golelorn! I put some armor in the bank for you!
If only the people at Mythic, including Sonya had listened to the vocal minority she decries here perhaps DAOC wouldn't be a dead shell of what was arguably once one of the best PVP MMO's.
In this particular case, I think the minority had a much better handle on how the game should have been developed and this post serves to show how out of touch she and the other folks at Mythic really were.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
LOL!
Well said, and thanks. I especially like the part about "Man up, Devs."
It would be nice if MMOGs came with a clear mission statement to the players, telling us what kind of game it is, what the devs intend, and what it won't be, and having enough vision and heart to stick to it.
Have played: Everquest, Asheron's Call, Horizons, Everquest2, World of Warcraft, Lord of the Rings Online, Warhammer, Age of Conan, Darkfall
It's Very hard to take advice from veteran MMO players because most game companys have a solid group of very educated people whom they trust.
I have played or wasted a great many years on certain MMOs but when I see a bad feature I get vocal about it. it's called arm chair development.
I could cite the many years I watched game developers go down that road and warned them of the outcome but I get ignored and my post get obliterated by flames and accusation of being a troll.
For Me MMOs are dead, jaded I know. but fans or vets of other MMOs can't change developers decisions about a bad feature simply because they have a plan that was given to them and they won't risk job to rebel against corporate bottom lines.
It's good to see passion still though. even if it's misguided or downright vile. it means people are clamoring for fun changes to their favorite MMO and wont back down.
Actually, she made some good points....but regardless the message I get from this is, "our game is being hurt by trolls, please stop." Makes me wonder moreso about the state of the game.
Incognito
www.incognito-gaming.us
"You're either with us or against us"
If the vocal minority was not vocal, what would the community be?
A community that just took what was handed to them, whatever it was?
A community that would not give feedback about a feature or a change in the development process?
I could see why from a developer point of view it may be nice. But usually the vocal minority is correct about its views.
Developers: If there is a huge outcry about some paradim shift in your development then choose to not listen to it at your peril. I could cite SWG or DAOC here for some of the changes they forcefed their populace that either hurt the growth of the game or sped its downfall.
Is the vocal minority always right? No. But when enough of that vocal minority all inputs about the same topic, it is generally a major issue and lots of thought should go into deloping against the wishes of the vocal minority.
When I think of the VM on this site, this usually comes to mind.
This statement alone makes your article come across as just wrong. The truth is the majority of the vocal minority are made up of people with no real clue how game development works and are spoilt brats wanting their instant wins right now.
=============================
I have a soap box and I am not afraid to use it.
Are people really equating what she's talking about to developers completely ignoring the concerns of legitimate problems within their game? How dense can you be? I'm especially surprised to see such a reaction out of some clearly eloquent people. For someone very smart, this shouldn't have gone so far over your head.
afnh this blog has nothing to do with dom its just a blog about every mmo on the market