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What was the first signal to you that this multi-multi-million dollar game was seriously flawed?

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  • SignusMSignusM Checkmanistan, MAPosts: 2,225Member

    Originally posted by red_cruiser

    I knew this game was going to suck when they moved in Warhammer Online people to make BioWare Austin.

    Mythic is probably the only good thing about this game. At least they have a lot of MMO experience. Bioware does not. We all know Mythic was brought in to save a sinking ship.

  • SignusMSignusM Checkmanistan, MAPosts: 2,225Member

    Originally posted by bobfish

    I'll preface this by saying, in my opinion the game is flawed, but still a very good game. It does what they say it should do pretty good

    I wouldn't say that. They call it an MMO and it doesn't do the whole MMO thing very well. Compared to singleplayer games, it's pretty good. Not great, because none of the quests you do have an impact on the game world (becuase it's "persistent") but its a decent story. But its not a singleplayer game is it? Its billed as an MMO, and it absolutely sucks at being one.

  • JjixJjix Boston, MAPosts: 141Member

    I was worried by the push that this game represented toward even MORE of this philosophy of "Soloing . . . Together."

     

    I can't explain why WoW has been so successful, but what I can say as a longtime non-WoW mmorpger is that since WoW's success, virtually every new game that I have tried has adopted this philosophy: that what gamers "really" want is to solo and to quest. Every one of those games felt relatively lonely and boring on some level -- to me -- and I wasn't surprised by the fact that all of them more or less failed.

     

    Perhaps the reason so many MMOs are failing isn't because they fail to live up to WoW, but because they are trying to.

     

    What I miss are the pre-WoW days where MMOs were more focused on player driven content. I think I could count the number of quests I actually bothered with in SWG, and yet the game kept me infinitely entertained. There is something about quests that seem so fundamentally artificial to me . . . the way they try to tell you that you are the most important person in the world while they are telling swarms of other players the exact same thing.

     

    SWTOR just took solo questing to the ultimate level. If the game doesn't succeed, I think that alone is ample evidence that questing does not represent the heart of what makes a MMO successful.

  • SignusMSignusM Checkmanistan, MAPosts: 2,225Member

    Originally posted by Jjix

    I was worried by the push that this game represented toward even MORE of this philosophy of "Soloing . . . Together."

     

    I can't explain why WoW has been so successful, but what I can say as a longtime non-WoW mmorpger is that since WoW's success, virtually every new game that I have tried has adopted this philosophy: that what gamers "really" want is to solo and to quest. Every one of those games felt relatively lonely and boring on some level -- to me -- and I wasn't surprised by the fact that all of them more or less failed.

     

    Perhaps the reason so many MMOs are failing isn't because they fail to live up to WoW, but because they are trying to.

     

    What I miss are the pre-WoW days where MMOs were more focused on player driven content. I think I could count the number of quests I actually bothered with in SWG, and yet the game kept me infinitely entertained. There is something about quests that seem so fundamentally artificial to me . . . the way they try to tell you that you are the most important person in the world, while they are telling swarms of other players the exact same thing.

     

    SWTOR just took solo questing to the ultimate level. If the game doesn't succeed, I think that alone is ample evidence that questing does not represent the heart of what makes a MMO successful.

    Agreed completely. Sadly, there are more non MMO fans who want to solo and quest while paying extra money to do so, than there are people who want a social world. Publishers only want to copy the big success. Sadly they don't realize that WoW's success was a total fluke.

  • kazdumkazdum ituPosts: 11Member

    i saw the ranged combat in one kid stream

    it was a guy standing still taking shots on his belly.

     

  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    If ea had pumped a tenth of the money they put into swtor into war instead I reckon they could have turned that around and made it a good game. The engine is better, the combat is better, the pvp is infinitely better, the extras like grouping features and the tok were good. All it needed was better dungeons & crafting
  • DistasteDistaste Lancaster, PAPosts: 667Member

    Originally posted by SignusM

    Originally posted by red_cruiser

    I knew this game was going to suck when they moved in Warhammer Online people to make BioWare Austin.

    Mythic is probably the only good thing about this game. At least they have a lot of MMO experience. Bioware does not. We all know Mythic was brought in to save a sinking ship.

    No, nope, nuh-uh, no way Jose, negative. You know those super awesome interesting warzones? Oh you don't? How about those boring, frustrating, and poorly designed warzones? Yes! Those are the ones! Those are brought to you by Mythic's Gabe Amatengelo. He also brought Ilum's open world PvP to the game, you know where people stood around no PvPing? Then there is Jeff Hickman whom, if I've understood his position correctly, is in charge of those that interact with customers and the public. We all know how well the customer support is for SWTOR and I believe he also had a hand in the whole pre-launch queue debacle.

    The mythic devs that made DAOC what it was are long gone, all that's left at EA are those responsible for the disaster that was WAR.

     

  • JjixJjix Boston, MAPosts: 141Member



    Originally posted by SignusM


    Agreed completely. Sadly, there are more non MMO fans who want to solo and quest while paying extra money to do so, than there are people who want a social world. Publishers only want to copy the big success. Sadly they don't realize that WoW's success was a total fluke.

    I hear ya. And it is hard not to be cynical about the impact of the masses on MMOs.

    Nevertheless, I believe that hardcore MMORPG stuff is what people "really" want, they are just a bit scared of it -- they don't know they want it yet. It is the same reason that adults who for the most part look down on video games nevertheless find themselves playing Angry Birds. The game seems sufficiently harmless that it breaks down their inhibitions. Video games are inherently fun, but they scare many people for various reasons at various levels. But, ultimately, I think, what scares people about video games is virtual reality . . . a reality apart from reality. And to the degree that someone is devoted to "real life" is the same degree to which that person will be fearful of virtual realities (and thus, video games) . . . or at least that is my theory. Virtual reality is what makes games fun, but also what makes them intimidating to some people.

    Now, in this sense, a MMORPG is the most hardcore video game there is. All other video games lead to MMOs because when it comes to creating a virtual reality, a MMO is supreme. What happened with WoW is that they took a MMORPG and made it less hardcore in order not to appeal to more people, but to draw more people in, to make virtual reality less scary to more people.

    One very important and often overlooked way in which WoW did this was by using cartoonish graphics. Cartoons, for most people, equal "not real" and so the game looked more like a "game" and less like a virtual reality, thus drawing more people in.

    Another way was to tell people what to do . . . i.e., quests. In otherwords, they hold your hand and assure you that this experience is going to be OK, you don't need to be so scared.

    Socializing with other people through avatars is a perpetual source of anxiety for people who have not yet gone into the heart of what a game is about. You very often hear new players obsessing over the issue of gender, of whether that girl toon is being played by a male in real life or not. This is fundamentally a fear of virtual reality, and WoW got around it by offering a ton of opportunities for soloing so you could slowly dip your toes into interacting with other people's characters.

    But in the end, these things -- quests, solo material, cartoonish graphics, etc -- are not what is making the game fun, these things are only there to get most players to relax enough so they can enjoy the actual sources of fun.

    And that is where most of these new games go wrong. They are like a new roller coaster with super fancy seat belts. The safety features get more people into the roller coaster, but they aren't the source of fun. WoW introduced the safety belts, so other game makers assume that must be the key to a fun game . . . then they spend all their time on making great safety belts.
  • randomtrandomt no thanks, BCPosts: 1,180Member

    What was the first signal to you that this multi-multi-million dollar game was seriously flawed?

    When I heard it was a multi-multi-mullion dollar game.. That means making investors happy instead of players happy, eh?

    ----
    What?

  • RizelStarRizelStar Raleigh, NCPosts: 2,773Member
    Originally posted by Jjix

    I was worried by the push that this game represented toward even MORE of this philosophy of "Soloing . . . Together."
     
    I can't explain why WoW has been so successful, but what I can say as a longtime non-WoW mmorpger is that since WoW's success, virtually every new game that I have tried has adopted this philosophy: that what gamers "really" want is to solo and to quest. Every one of those games felt relatively lonely and boring on some level -- to me -- and I wasn't surprised by the fact that all of them more or less failed.
     
    Perhaps the reason so many MMOs are failing isn't because they fail to live up to WoW, but because they are trying to.
     
    What I miss are the pre-WoW days where MMOs were more focused on player driven content. I think I could count the number of quests I actually bothered with in SWG, and yet the game kept me infinitely entertained. There is something about quests that seem so fundamentally artificial to me . . . the way they try to tell you that you are the most important person in the world while they are telling swarms of other players the exact same thing.
     
    SWTOR just took solo questing to the ultimate level. If the game doesn't succeed, I think that alone is ample evidence that questing does not represent the heart of what makes a MMO successful.

     

    Very very very True. I mean the solo thing is subjective but when you said mmos fail not because they didn't live up to wow standards but are trying to...that's so true best statement ever. Almost think you should write a book on it and I'm not even being sarcastic. I might just have to quote that. Least bookmark it. Your quote is far more related to mmos it goes for sports and other things.

    I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.

    I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.

    P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)

    Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.

  • odinsrathodinsrath louisville, KYPosts: 814Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by randomt

    What was the first signal to you that this multi-multi-million dollar game was seriously flawed?

    When I heard it was a multi-multi-mullion dollar game.. That means making investors happy instead of players happy, eh?

     

    ^^this

    and it seems everytime when its time to re-release a starwars movie lucas rolls out a crappy game wether its on xbox / ps3 or pc and post their face on ever soda can / cell phone ad. they can find..its an every year thing now..when will people learn to STAY AWAY ..its like having a bad birthday..it comes..it goes..and people forget how bad the last birthday was but they still go to it

     

  • WickedjellyWickedjelly Yahoo, COPosts: 4,990Member

    Originally posted by kazdum

    i saw the ranged combat in one kid stream

    it was a guy standing still taking shots on his belly.

     

    It would be a lot more immersive and add to combat gameplay if they had a voiceover yelling "Body blow!" every time.

    1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.

    2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.

    3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.

  • PhryPhry HampshirePosts: 6,288Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by SignusM

    Originally posted by Jjix

    I was worried by the push that this game represented toward even MORE of this philosophy of "Soloing . . . Together."

     

    I can't explain why WoW has been so successful, but what I can say as a longtime non-WoW mmorpger is that since WoW's success, virtually every new game that I have tried has adopted this philosophy: that what gamers "really" want is to solo and to quest. Every one of those games felt relatively lonely and boring on some level -- to me -- and I wasn't surprised by the fact that all of them more or less failed.

     

    Perhaps the reason so many MMOs are failing isn't because they fail to live up to WoW, but because they are trying to.

     

    What I miss are the pre-WoW days where MMOs were more focused on player driven content. I think I could count the number of quests I actually bothered with in SWG, and yet the game kept me infinitely entertained. There is something about quests that seem so fundamentally artificial to me . . . the way they try to tell you that you are the most important person in the world, while they are telling swarms of other players the exact same thing.

     

    SWTOR just took solo questing to the ultimate level. If the game doesn't succeed, I think that alone is ample evidence that questing does not represent the heart of what makes a MMO successful.

    Agreed completely. Sadly, there are more non MMO fans who want to solo and quest while paying extra money to do so, than there are people who want a social world. Publishers only want to copy the big success. Sadly they don't realize that WoW's success was a total fluke.

    the other big problem with solo gameplay.. for me at least.. is that its pretty damn boring, when you add in the fact that its actually difficult to find groups in SW:TOR, where you can be trying to form a group for half an hour or more sometimes, and still not succeed, i mean, people can run down WoW as much as they like, but at least thats one thing that Blizzard did right, i just wish Bioware had been paying attention to that instead of the Voiceover fixation that seems to have blinded them to serious gameplay issues..  image

  • WickedjellyWickedjelly Yahoo, COPosts: 4,990Member

    Originally posted by Phry

    the other big problem with solo gameplay.. for me at least.. is that its pretty damn boring, when you add in the fact that its actually difficult to find groups in SW:TOR, where you can be trying to form a group for half an hour or more sometimes, and still not succeed, i mean, people can run down WoW as much as they like, but at least thats one thing that Blizzard did right, i just wish Bioware had been paying attention to that instead of the Voiceover fixation that seems to have blinded them to serious gameplay issues..  image

    You know what is sad? I have ran across more than a few in that game that simply say much as they like to group they simply gave up. Their view is simply why bother with it when it takes so long since you can just solo anyways? Can't say I  blame them.

    They practically get a woody when myself or someone else gets a group together to do the heroics on planets.

    1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.

    2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.

    3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.

  • BenedictXVBenedictXV Montreal, QCPosts: 104Member

    Originally posted by Tawn47

    Originally posted by BenedictXV


    Originally posted by RizelStar


    Originally posted by BenedictXV

    Anyhow for the OP : The first signal i got that you were seriously flawed is when you posted this thread!

    When all else fails attack the OP.../facepalm

    My point is that OP in here is just well... trolling?

    If thats a problem to you, then don't feed the troll.  Move on and let people discuss why they hate the game.

    Quoting only a part of my post and taking especially that part the counter attack me is lame sir. And if you give yourself the right to rant about the game, by the mighty first amendement, i officially here give myself the right to inform you and all the people on this forum to continue to express my problem towards people ranting about this game!

    On this, have a good day!

    image

  • AtheenahAtheenah UddevallaPosts: 58Member

    Where to start...hm...oh, i know!

    Character customization, i mean...so now everyone look the same.

    Vehicles...What, i have to be lvl 20 to ride a bike? And BUY a bike-cert? Comon...

    The ship...i got THAT multimillion credit thing at lvl 10, and needed no cert....well, right, i can never pilot it so i guess it makes sense...

    Oh, and I bacame jedi MASTER at lvl 10 too! Amazing!

    I could go on and on, but the OP asked for the first signal...

     

     

  • noncleynoncley LondonPosts: 647Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Wickedjelly

    Originally posted by Phry

    the other big problem with solo gameplay.. for me at least.. is that its pretty damn boring, when you add in the fact that its actually difficult to find groups in SW:TOR, where you can be trying to form a group for half an hour or more sometimes, and still not succeed, i mean, people can run down WoW as much as they like, but at least thats one thing that Blizzard did right, i just wish Bioware had been paying attention to that instead of the Voiceover fixation that seems to have blinded them to serious gameplay issues..  image

    You know what is sad? I have ran across more than a few in that game that simply say much as they like to group they simply gave up. Their view is simply why bother with it when it takes so long since you can just solo anyways? Can't say I  blame them.

    They practically get a woody when myself or someone else gets a group together to do the heroics on planets.

    I feel ya, bro. Getting a group together in SWTOR is a nightmare.

    They keep on saying 'Oh, we chose not to institute a LFG function because it was anti-community'.

    Firstly,  I think that's a lie (they didn't do it because it required some minor but fiddly programming that they just weren't qualified to do or allocate resources to get some outsiders to do); and secondly, standing around with my thumb up my ass spamming 'LFG Black Box - Sorc Healer' for half an hour doesn't help community much and it certainly doesn't help gamplay.

    I even found getting Flashpoints at my level extremely hard. It was idiotic of them not to implement an LFG function and, no, it didn' have to be as inane as WoW's version to work.

  • Creslin321Creslin321 Baltimore, MDPosts: 5,359Member

    Originally posted by noncley

    Originally posted by Wickedjelly

    Originally posted by Phry

    the other big problem with solo gameplay.. for me at least.. is that its pretty damn boring, when you add in the fact that its actually difficult to find groups in SW:TOR, where you can be trying to form a group for half an hour or more sometimes, and still not succeed, i mean, people can run down WoW as much as they like, but at least thats one thing that Blizzard did right, i just wish Bioware had been paying attention to that instead of the Voiceover fixation that seems to have blinded them to serious gameplay issues..  image

    You know what is sad? I have ran across more than a few in that game that simply say much as they like to group they simply gave up. Their view is simply why bother with it when it takes so long since you can just solo anyways? Can't say I  blame them.

    They practically get a woody when myself or someone else gets a group together to do the heroics on planets.

    I feel ya, bro. Getting a group together in SWTOR is a nightmare.

    They keep on saying 'Oh, we chose not to institute a LFG function because it was anti-community'.

    Firstly,  I think that's a lie (they didn't do it because it required some minor but fiddly programming that they just weren't qualified to do or allocate resources to get some outsiders to do); and secondly, standing around with my thumb up my ass spamming 'LFG Black Box - Sorc Healer' for half an hour doesn't help community much and it certainly doesn't help gamplay.

    I even found getting Flashpoints at my level extremely hard. It was idiotic of them not to implement an LFG function and, no, it didn' have to be as inane as WoW's version to work.

     Heheh I always thought it was hilarious that BW used the "LFG functions hurt community" argument and yet they have:

    1.  Severe zone sharding to the point where many zones seem empty.

    2.  Very heavy use of instancing in zones.

    3.  What is essentially a solo storyline for each class.

    Yeah...but LFG functions would "hurt" the community.  Right ;).

    Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  • ZarthornZarthorn WakefieldPosts: 4Member

    1. When I realised the head of PvP balancing was Gabe, the same person responsible for the Choppa in WAR.

    2. When I saw that expertise was far more overpowered than WoW's Resolve.

    3. When I actually thought about it and realised that the PvP balance was exactly the same as WAR's "bad old days"

    4. When I went to Ilum and saw people base flipping then after the patch, kill trading.

    5. When a bunch of my threads got closed and I got infracted because Bioware don't like being told where they are going wrong.

    6. When they seem to think a stupid Guild Summit will really appease the masses that are raging about there unfinished and quite frankly shoddy endgame.

     

    Basically SWTOR = WAR 2.0 except this time it's Ilum instead of forts and city sieges.

  • Games888Games888 Chicago, ILPosts: 243Member

    when I beta tested it knew it was all voice over.

  • ForumPvPForumPvP KingstownPosts: 871Member

    When I saw a video from bioware where someone was explaining how they listened their customers and they will bring custom UI because they listen their customers.

    Let's internet

  • ComplicationComplication Bonsall, CAPosts: 209Member

    I knew the game was seriously flawed first day of launch when I realized the beta builds I had tested had more features then the live version.

     

    oh and also when i pick a conversation choice to say to an npc and i say something completely fucking different

  • Timeout77Timeout77 DarksideofthemoonPosts: 177Member

    When the Devs at Bioware said they Implement everything that WoW has.. it whent a little something like this "BGs" yes we have them "raids" yes we have them yes and yes and more yes... But We also have STORY and this is the forth pillar of MMO gaming...

    I just LOL at BIOWARE these days.. servers are standard/light /standard/light/standard EURO side its light light light light light .....

    SOme poor sucker said he had 25 people in fleet and 256 people on the Republic side on his Hole server, PRIME TIME. Fanboy  FANATICs ofcs TROLLED and hated on him for being upset by this...

  • ZheomZheom KuopioPosts: 58Member

    i saw it after the first vid i saw of this game :)

  • smh_alotsmh_alot Area 51Posts: 976Member
    Originally posted by Timeout77

    When the Devs at Bioware said they Implement everything that WoW has.. it whent a little something like this "BGs" yes we have them "raids" yes we have them yes and yes and more yes... But We also have STORY and this is the forth pillar of MMO gaming...
    I just LOL at BIOWARE these days.. servers are standard/light /standard/light/standard EURO side its light light light light light .....
    SOme poor sucker said he had 25 people in fleet and 256 people on the Republic side on his Hole server, PRIME TIME. Fanboy  FANATICs ofcs TROLLED and hated on him for being upset by this...

     

    To be truthful, the servers report heavy as well next to standard and light, EU servers being light in the middle of the night isn't that strange when using common sense, and I also counted 2000 to 3500 players logged in on various servers not even a week ago. Just adding some balance to an otherwise very onesided (and biased?) argument :-)
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