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Originally posted by musicmann First, not sure where the OP is going at all. Ideas seem jibberish to me. Second, a good game, would not have any levels, or gear grind. The world/planets would be open and non instanced. Oh shit, to much to explain. Just make the mmo have all the systems that SWG pre-cu had, with TOR's personal story and content to not lead but to develope your character no matter what different build you have and set it in either a high fantasy ,sci fi, or modern day setting and you should have the ultimate MMORPG.
Never - EVER - use the words "ultimate MMORPG" after a sentence that mashes the aspects of two existing ones. Especially one that failed hard, and another that is still leaving a questionable wake. If the two were that amazing, there wouldn't be room for others, and mashing all their better parts together isn't going to make that pile any more coherent, nor is it promised to even *work* in the first place.
I remember a divide between JtL and ground-game players back in SWG as well. Regardless if you are one to agree both sides fit the game, others will tell you it's not, or more importantly (to them), which half is *better*.
These 'wishlist' ideas for games need to die, imo. I HATE, HATE, HATE the constant threads about "the perfect game", and how it's nothing more than a list of features from every f**king game, ever. Ones, that in the long run, will just divide the playerbase into complaining - STILL - about what parts suck the most. Perfect is impossible, becuase the best parts make the worst parts stand out. Then some other game does those better, and we repeat this cycle, ad infinitum.
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Originally posted by Cuathon Originally posted by Nadia Originally posted by Cuathon Well obviously its much harder to make a game that appeals to casuals while also being awesome. That is because games have to pick their audience.
Vanguard tried to offer a game for noncasuals but Sigil ran out of cash developing their game
- can only hope someone else tries to create a noncasual game and does not run out of cash
Sigil spent too much dev time and money on graphics. A really good sandbox has to sacrifice graphics due to small audience.
Developers might have to sacrifice developing the expansive and highly detailed 3-d worlds but there is little reason to sacrifice "graphics".
Also, the game is a sandbox. One of the features is player driven and even player created content. Why generate monster models when players can do it? Why generate cities when players will do it? I'd even go so far as landmass but this might be a bit much. Of course, I am ignoring the logistics of doing such things but a sandbox does not require the developers to create as much content. The developers create methods/mechanics of playing in the sandbox.
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Having a player driven world is definitely key to an open end game, especially in the economy and politics. Player housing is a must too. I hate instances so much. I prefer an MMORPG with real time combat and no dungeon grinding. Character customization should be really deep, I want to be able to control every aspect of my character's appearance. Exploring is really important too, so sailing and player owned ships should be included, with other continents and islands to explore and trade.
I started playing MMOs with UO, and I played MUDs before that. I would be happy if there was never a game developed again with an EQ-style mob grind built into the game.
I do, however, miss having an actual virtual world to explore. AC was the closest game to UO that I could find but it was still lightyears behind what UO accomplished.
It's really pathetic how the MMO genre has devolved into what we have today.
UO had so much content that you could spend months playing the game many hours every day and each day would be a different experience. The content built into the game was expanded indefinitely by the fact that you had to interact with other players. There just aren't games like that any more.
EvE may have some superficial similarities with UO, but the gameplay has nothing in common.
If you had asked me 13 years ago, when I spent more time playing UO than going to school, what I thought MMO games would be like today; I would have undoubetely described a game that combined the engine of the Uncharted games, mixed with the voxel aspects of Minecraft, combined with the content found in UO and GW2.
And I, of course, would have been a fool to think that the majority of gamers wanted depth to their game and not just a mediocare single player game with a chat box.
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
Originally posted by midmagic Originally posted by Cuathon Originally posted by Nadia Originally posted by Cuathon Well obviously its much harder to make a game that appeals to casuals while also being awesome. That is because games have to pick their audience.
You knew what I meant by graphics dude. Art assets, graphics, w/e.
Actually I am integrating world altering features as well as possibly exploring using a modified version of blender to let players "craft" and "build" things. So you would be able to carve a piece of wood into a staff with a more intuitive system. And you would be able to do some other things.
Letting players create monster models is bad, it remove the chance of having a specific art theme for the models.
Originally posted by Dameonk If you had asked me 13 years ago, when I spent more time playing UO than going to school, what I thought MMO games would be like today...
ouch - and I agree
mmos were not that popular until wow hit and then companies wanted a piece of the wow pie
Lineage was an exception in popularity, prewow, with millions of subs but not in US/EU
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Originally posted by Nadia Lineage was an exception in popularity, prewow, with millions of subs but not in US/EU
True, it's too bad that style of game never caught on here or we may have a very different game library today.
Originally posted by Dameonk True, it's too bad that style of game never caught on here or we may have a very different game library today.
Well, Lineage was differentfrom the rest of the games,I played it in the beta....
For one thing it didn´t really had any quests, you just got around and killed stuff. Noone told you what to do andthere wasn´t much of helps or tutorials. Instead of killing X quests there were bounties on some creatures and you looted something of each one of them andturned it in for some cash.
I liked that with it, but the game had some really bad parts as well. Every character of the same class looked exactly the same (I played Meridian 59 before who had a slider system that actually were more advanced than many modern games) and there were not any customization or skill trees.
It actually had plenty of Western players just after release but they tired of and went to new games rather soon after.
I have given thought on infinite lvl i think it would work as long ofc its made in such a wy that a higher lvl player wouldnt be much much stronger than alower lvl player. It means every time someone lvls he takes just a small small small bit of something .
The rest i agree except instanced dungeons. i find it hard ppl to accept getting ganged by sneakers while they are figthing mobs in a dungeon heh. I dont say i wouldnt play it, i just say othe rppl would whine.
Originally posted by xpinkfl0ydxHi there, its my first post on this forum, and english is not my first language so i apologize for any errors wich may be in my post. so, why am I here? why am I writing this now instead of playing my fav. mmo? well thats kind of the reason... there is no!! this thread will look as a QQ thread, well it kinda is.-----so here we go, today's mmos are far more popular that they were back few years ago when i started playing but allaround the quality just fell sooo drastcicly ... i feel like the only thing improving is the graphics and everything else just keeps gettin' worse My basic points of complain are the following, wich in my eyes ruins today mmos and makes it just rpg with internet conection. 1. INSTANCED DUNGENS ... why? why? why? why does it have to be instanced ??? odl sql dungens were part of the open world... sure the mobs were bit harder in there but so was the exp and lot (more rewarding) .. there were fights over the good grinding spots between guilds and alliances wich made it one of the most exciting aspects of the game. Instanced RUIN EVERYTHING = go in kill some mobs, then the boss = dungen cleared (gets boooriiing, or no?) no competition no nothing, feels like rpg style sorry2. LEVELING CURVE for me, THATS the reason all new mmos WILL fail... tera (2 weeks to max lvl = JOKE) thats why it failed in korea and japan ... i bet everything i have that the future of gw2 will be the same ... we all know leveling is a peace of cake there also .. the only thing it will show after a year of two is the pvp aspect of the game, but that will be enough just too keep the hard core pvpers in the game ... i know now i will get flamed by gw2 lovers but idc its my opinionaion is doing good in korea cuz its the most grindy of them all.wich makes me come to 2.0 leveling curve, WHY do they make arcade mmos in wich u reach max lvl in a month or two easy gaming ... why do they make lvl cap at all ???? it would be soooo more intresting that the exp would grow all the time even if the mobs give 0,0000000000001% exp at least there is some progression FOR GODS SAKE, wouldnt hurt if there is no max lvl !!!now people again will say, omg you like grind omg noob get life bla bla bla ...THE ONLY AND I MEAN THE ONLY reason why they have low lvl cap is so new players wich come after few months can still catch up with old players... thats all ... but still its no excuse!!!everything is sooooooo easy nowdays, back in time in a game i played the whole allince had to give money for a frineds item cuz there were just 2 wepons of that grade on the whole server and that was 5 years after the game was released, TODAY??? 1 month max gear, max lvl, max everything ffs people do get bored with this games and thats why nothing lasts more then a year before it starts to flop todays mmo market is just to much focused on (wont even call them casual gamers) people who play single player games all day but wanna chat also ...---so my mmo now would look like;1. no leveling cap or at least a cap wich requiers a year or two grind2. massive open world3. no instance at all4. max lvl gear should be very very very hard to obtain not that after few monts every noob walks around with max gear looking same as every1 else lolz5. some castle siege, teritory wars and economyc/political play6. (this point is very debateble since its pure subjective opinion) i dont like gunners replacing archers nowdays .. + enginers etc bljahhh (well i like asian style sorry ;D) neither do i like animal races but i can live without point 6 ^^ ---well nice last words,today mmos = single play games with chat option------ sorry for language again, hope at least some agree with me... BRING GRINDERS BACK!!!!!!!
"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"
Originally posted by Timukas Instead of slower leveling I'd prefer no levels at all and tons of skills to aquire instead. I agree that quick leveling like in SWTOR is pointless - today you get that über armor and tomorrow you have outleveled it. Five levels higher green is better than this purple. And yes, I want bigger worlds and less instances. Technology has become so much better over the last 10-15 years but all MMOs have somehow gone backwards. Maybe it's because of suits that run MMO companies these days instead of guys creating their dream game. I don't know but I get more and more bored of this genre.
Honestly the decline all started with world of warcraft, it caused a shift once devs found out it sells. Casual stuff is in sadly because as I said easy mode mmo's sell to the masses. The problem with a grind is making the grind fun, which devs now a days seemed to have totally lost their abilitiy to do this so they just cop out and with with wow's 2-4 days to lv cap system. To be honest the main problem with todays mmo's is they are too soloable, thats the main issue.
I actually find it kind of funny how the tech has gotten better yet mmo's have pretty much gone backwards in terms of overall quality, then again this can be said for single player titles too. They get better graphically, but the game mechanics and systems, and gameplay have all gone backwards. Devs used to make games because they enjoyed making them, now a days they just keep mass producing the garbage we have today as a money grab and thats about it. Sadly I don't see this trend ending anytime soon unless people stop buying these shitty games and putting up with it.
Being a pessimist is a win-win pattern of thinking. If you're a pessimist (I'll admit that I am!) you're either:
A. Proven right (if something bad happens)
B. Pleasantly surprised (if something good happens)
Either way, you can't lose! Try it out sometime!
I wasn't surprised with the direction the MMO genre took after the unprecented success of WoW. What has surprised me, though, is the lack of foresight by virtually all MMO developers since these WoW clones began popping up. What the hell are these people thinking? Every single year since WoW launched we have seen multiple clones created. Every single year since WoW launched we have seen clone after clone start strong (mostly attributed to marketing) then shortly after release start bleeding subscribers.
Does anyone in the business of making MMOs actually believe that their customers will be satisfied by game content that takes people less than a month to complete? It's baffling. I mean, your business model is set up around keeping people playing past the first month. What the hell are these people thinking?
Originally posted by Cuathon Originally posted by midmagic Originally posted by Cuathon Originally posted by Nadia Originally posted by Cuathon Well obviously its much harder to make a game that appeals to casuals while also being awesome. That is because games have to pick their audience.
No, your usage of "graphics" was vague, but anyways, needless debate.
As to the second point... . Developers can have a highly controlled system that tends toward themepark or one that is completely open. So, lets put this into a RP perspective. Almighty wizard Bob comissions a some magically spliced animal. The "quest" states specifically what is for and he chooses an acceptable submission. Art style can be maintained. Players generated the models and animations. Resources are limited to the community reviewing the submissions and testers that would be any normal in-house content generation.
Another system could just leave everything to the players to decide how every thing should look and has been shown to be a successful model. Could even have a player driven rejection/acceptance system. Like I said, I left the logistics of the system out of it as they would more or less determine the style of the game.
I can't imagine nothing but open dungeons... highly populated starting zones in WoW were pretty actually pretty annoying and there were lines of people waiting to down named mobs..
while I think it would be ok to employ open dungeons tastefully (read: small amounts), end game stuff would be grief fests, waiting games, cause people to be forced to login during odd hours... would be hard to do.
Originally posted by wrekognize Not true. Because in today's MMO, they design the progression in a way that makes it nearly impossible to "grind". Questing is basically you're only option. The only game I saw accomplish this was SWG NGE (believe it or not). None quest driven games could offer the grind, quests, dungeon runs, different type missions and etc. Current quest driven MMOs do not aim for this type of freedom. Questing is the grind.
Well balancing things is certainly ideal, but at the end of the day in one game you have the option of quests, the choice between quests, and all the varied activities that are part of a typical quest system vs. a game where advancement is purely mob-grinding. Clearly the former is more varied and involves more player choice (because there is a choice, unlike a pure mob-grind based game.)
"And here, according to Trout, was the reason human beings could not reject ideas because they were bad...[continue]" -Kurt Vonnegut
Unlike most, I reject bad ideas because they're bad and accept good ideas because they're good, and it doesn't matter who's saying it; only the truth matters.
I agree with the OP 100% so no man you're not the only one.
I hate and refuse to use facebook/twitter or any other kind of social network and that is hurting me the most that todays mmorpg are converted to social networks that cater to non gamers but these smartass acting/posing/showing off people.
Most of the mmorpg crowd of today plays to skip skip skip everything in a game and get to level cap as fast as they can and show off nothing else. Means to do that are cheats/bots/buying from goldsellers and ninja steal from anyone they can in game.
The above do not include every mmorpg gamer but the majority of them, I always find few good gamers on any game but chat in any mmorpg now days is trash talk.
To the OP.... come play mortal online. Theres a free trial. It has all those things.
Originally posted by MacroHard I can't imagine nothing but open dungeons... highly populated starting zones in WoW were pretty actually pretty annoying and there were lines of people waiting to down named mobs.. while I think it would be ok to employ open dungeons tastefully (read: small amounts), end game stuff would be grief fests, waiting games, cause people to be forced to login during odd hours... would be hard to do.
Just take a game like Vanguard which has something like 40+ open dungeons (many of which are very large and support a wide level of character ranged). For instance on the Thestra continent there is a ruined building inhabited by some spirit creatures/undead (i think the dungeon is low 40's).. If you go deep enough you will find a hole in the bottom level which leads into another dungeon with an underground lava/rock theme (with level 50+ enemies)..
It worked well in vanguard sadly SOE didn't give that game the love it deserves (still wary of their current promises with it) Although Vanguard did have multiple copies of its raid dungeon (Ancient Port Warehouse) Its not instancing there were just 4 versions of it at the same time & multiple raids could go into each dungeon. Since lockouts were character based you could only kill bosses every so often.
Originally posted by Zlayer77 I agree to some of your points... But I think if they changed the game mechanics, made It more about Crafting, let weapons, armour, ships,vehicles get destroyed.. let people make guild halls, cities or castles.. And overal just let the player be in control of the politics ingame. This would open up the game so much more and make it about something more then just running in a mouse Wheel for gear.. On the point you are making on GW2 its still free to play after you have bought it.. they dont have to keep you ingame, If you buy the next expansion they are just happy with that. The Pay to Play modual is what suffers when you have nothing for the players 2 do accept repeat the same content over and over. If Companies FOCUSED on the comunity and giving them tools to have fun, player will keep other players ingame. If you let them cunstruct things and work for a goal as a team they have more reasons to stay.. Modern MMOS are way to much focuesed on "WHATS IN IT FOR ME" this dosent build comunity and it dosent keep players playing... So to sum it up.. instead of making a Horrible grind.. Let the players Build, change and effect the game world, focus on comunity tools, Guilds etc.. Make everything destructible, by doing this people will always have to keep Reparing and Bulding new things..
Sounds like SWG in the early days!
I count him braver who overcomes his desires than him who conquers his enemies; for the hardest victory is over self. --Aristotle
Originally posted by wrekognize Originally posted by Axehilt Originally posted by wrekognize Originally posted by LadyNoh GRINDING IS BORING. seriously. do you quake with excitement with the thought of killing the same mob for the next 3-6 hours. if your life is so terribly dull that it is appealing to you, seek mental help.
I feel the exact same way about people who grind quest after quest in order to advance their character. For me, I enjoy the freedom of killing the same mob 3-6 hours if I want. Or, completeing a dungeon for a few hours to advance. Or, hunting locked chests and fighting mobs in order to open them in order to advance my skill. Or, Etc... Give me multiple options, not just damn quest after quest. That is the true grind.
Well in a mob grind game you cannot escape the mob grind at all.
Whereas in a quest game you can still grind if you want (alone or in groups), or you can choose to do quests (which are individually optional.) More variety, more options, more freedom.
Not true. Because in today's MMO, they design the progression in a way that makes it nearly impossible to "grind". Questing is basically you're only option. The only game I saw accomplish this was SWG NGE (believe it or not). None quest driven games could offer the grind, quests, dungeon runs, different type missions and etc. Current quest driven MMOs do not aim for this type of freedom. Questing is the grind.
Grinding is ALWAYS an option, no matter what the game is like (questing or otherwise). You don't have to follow the quests to get to the end-game.
Hell, back in the day, there were leveling guides for WoW where grinding was the quickest, preffered leveling option for those who wanted to level quickly. It may not be the same now, but if you prefer grinding mob after mob rather than doing quests, the options is ALWAYS available to you, whether a slower option or not.
It's in no way "nearly impossible" to grind levels today. Or, it's no harder to grind through levels today than it was to be FORCED to grind through levels for years back in the day.
If you can't stop yourself from questing, then it means the questing is more fun than grinding. Period.
I used to be against instances myself but there is definitely a good place for them.You have to first realize that there is only so much content to go around per level,yet there is thousands of users per server.This means theere is no way possible to have enough content for all without ruining it for each other.
You get your friends together to go do a quest line inside instance A,but wait there is 20 other groups of friends doing the same content.Now all your named or boss or mobs are dead leaving you with an empty dungeon.Ok well you might have some VERY patient groups that are willing to wait,but hold on,the first groups like the drops,so they are staying behind to also wait and camp the spawns,so nobody will be happy.
The leveling curve is antoher tough subject to fix in a perfect way.First one has to ask is WHY are we worried about the leveling curve?Since when does a level number mean anything?It is just like real life,you don't win by getting older,you don't turn 50 then say "I WIN".it really should not matter if level 1 takes 5 months or level 50 takes 3 months.
A game should be about a constant input of game material that allows the user of a role playijng game to continue forever with content.I feel the reason that level numbers have always been used is that devs lack the effort or ability to create compelling content that keeps players coming back.However using a level number seems to be a sort of carrot on a stick that lures players into coming back to attain the max level for some false feeling of satisfaction.Objectively you cannot see any reason what so ever that a level number gives any satisfaction,after all it is just a number but it seems that soemehow it does lol.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Originally posted by wrekognizeBecause in today's MMO, they design the progression in a way that makes it nearly impossible to "grind". Questing is basically you're only option. The only game I saw accomplish this was SWG NGE (believe it or not).
But I've definitely noticed that killing mobs earns a LOT more xp a lot more quickly than questing. You would definitely level faster by grinding than you would by questing, if that's what you want to do.
Originally posted by Starpower All these great features of old, were inconveniences. That's why we have MMO-Lite today. Instances was made to combat fighting over spawns and rediculous group lists, not to mention other people sending trains of mobs to your location wiping your group. You and I may think this adds a fun unpredictable risk factor, that makes it that much more great, doesn't mean others felt the same way. There were some real hardcore nerd raging going on back then, by people that simply couldn't handle that type of mechanics emotionally All the features taken away from us is because we the gamers didn't want them there None instanced dungeons helped foster community. You would help other groups with bad pulls if you happened to be in the vicinity. You would help recover their corpses if they wiped. People used the general chat in whatever dungeon they were camping to chat with other groups in the same area, which again meant you got to know people outside your own guild or circle of friends. I've had some fun conversations in lower guk late nights camping that haste sash/ykesha. Sometimes while waiting for a spot in a group you would hang around helping out with heals and buffs etc. This is something completely missing in todays MMOs because not only have we done away with open dungeons but buffs too, that actually made a difference. We only get 1 tenth of them if even that. Take SWTOR as an example or even Rift. You get 1 buff to cast on others that's it. Two if you are lucky. What MMO today do you have people out there asking for buffs. Practically none. The downside to all the "positive" things was frustations of dying by some other players hands, because they ran past your group with 10 mobs on their tail. You had to find something to do while being on the list to get a group in a good xp spot. If you wanted to raid, you had to rush it, or you would be kicking and and screaming at that other guild who beat you to the punch, while you were preparing. Or worse case scenario a jerkoff guild with a dedicated group running interference for you so you couldn't prepare in time So yes you can't have it all. You can't whine about kill stealing, mob trains and griefers getting you killed for fun while at the same time complain todays game has no community and how instances are the devil. You along with everybody else are the reason for that
I am afraid gamers were happy with that. All that changed to attract the non-gamers. This is one of the reasons why WoW has so much success. It's done with the non-gamers in mind.
They spent $2m of their own money buying out of their publishing contract with Microsoft because M$ didn't share their vision for the game. This left them short on cash and lost in limbo without a publisher for a while until Sony picked them up and basically fired the entire staff except for whats-his-face (effectively dismantling Sigil), who stayed on as a poster boy but had little to do with the further development of the game.
Lord - the 'I know better than anyone' complainers strike again with the same ole refrain. Reusable talking points cause nothing makes you happy. Ad Nauseum! Geeeze - give it a rest!