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Why do people seem to think F2P=Freeware?

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  • BanaghranBanaghran HuisoPosts: 869Member

    Originally posted by Fly666monkey

    So, having a tiered sub system is deceptive, but pay to win isn't? Gotcha.

    You have missed the point i think, "Players can buy  the best item/gear available in the game" does not mean those items are not available to free players, if they put the effort in, buying is just easyer.

    Not every game is structured like wow, especially korean ones, where after you get BiS everything you are done and all you can do is show off.

    But you may have a different definition of pay2win , please elaborate :)

    Flame on!

    :)

  • Fly666monkeyFly666monkey Albuqurque, NMPosts: 146Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Banaghran

    Originally posted by Fly666monkey

    So, having a tiered sub system is deceptive, but pay to win isn't? Gotcha.

    You have missed the point i think, "Players can buy  the best item/gear available in the game" does not mean those items are not available to free players, if they put the effort in, buying is just easyer.

    Not every game is structured like wow, especially korean ones, where after you get BiS everything you are done and all you can do is show off.

    But you may have a different definition of pay2win , please elaborate :)

    Flame on!

    :)

    Do you really think anyone is going to want to grind to get gear that other players can just pay for? Let me give you an example:

    In the Nexon published game, Mabinogi, if you are a free player, you can "Rebirth" your character ever 3 weeks, which resets your level while keeping your stats. After lvl 20 or so, leveling progression slows down IMMENSELY, so you get only a few points to increase your skills, and later on oin the game, won't be able to advance any of your skills untill after several rebirths.

    A paying player, on the other hand, can RB every week, and as such advance MUCH faster than free players. You're not forced to pay to advance, you can just grind it out for free, but you will alwayts be behind those who pay.

    So that's the idea of "Paying for convinience" for you. The same concept can be applied to gear. Yes, you can grind it out to get that gear, or you can pay and get it now, while squashing those without the gear in every aspect of the game until they catch up. Then finallly everyone catches up to the paying players, and then new, better gear comes out! Guess who's going to be grinding whole being overshadowed by the paying players again?

    As you see, it's still pay to win.

  • MacroHardMacroHard Fairfax, VAPosts: 104Member

    Originally posted by Fly666monkey

    I hope I'm not the only one who is a little confused by the attitude of people who jump into F2P games and expect everything to be free.

    Anytime a f2p game cuts co0ntent off from free players, I see countless people complaining that they have to pay for it. Even in a game that used to be P2P and required you to buy both the game AND pay a sub to access the game AT ALL.

    F2P is not Freeware.

    It's a buisiness model. So long as F2P games provide quality content, and don't fall into gambling/P2W traps, I see no reason to complain. Guess what? These games have to make money, too.

    This whole "F2P games should give me everything for free, GIMMMEGIMMEGIMME." attitude makes no sense. If you're willing to pay a sub to access an MMO, then I see no reason to whine when they decide to let you have SOME of that content without paying.

    I'm glad I got that off my chest.

    It's because new players are drawn to low/no cost like a smart consumer should be.  Their problem is they are too believing and should know without any experience that F2P is code for Pay2Win.

    It is a business model alright.. one that bases itself on deceit in order to lure players in.

  • BanaghranBanaghran HuisoPosts: 869Member

    Originally posted by Fly666monkey

    Originally posted by Banaghran


    Originally posted by Fly666monkey

    So, having a tiered sub system is deceptive, but pay to win isn't? Gotcha.

    You have missed the point i think, "Players can buy  the best item/gear available in the game" does not mean those items are not available to free players, if they put the effort in, buying is just easyer.

    Not every game is structured like wow, especially korean ones, where after you get BiS everything you are done and all you can do is show off.

    But you may have a different definition of pay2win , please elaborate :)

    Flame on!

    :)

    Do you really think anyone is going to want to grind to get gear that other players can just pay for? Let me give you an example:

    In the Nexon published game, Mabinogi, if you are a free player, you can "Rebirth" your character ever 3 weeks, which resets your level while keeping your stats. After lvl 20 or so, leveling progression slows down IMMENSELY, so you get only a few points to increase your skills, and later on oin the game, won't be able to advance any of your skills untill after several rebirths.

    A paying player, on the other hand, can RB every week, and as such advance MUCH faster than free players. You're not forced to pay to advance, you can just grind it out for free, but you will alwayts be behind those who pay.

    So that's the idea of "Paying for convinience" for you. The same concept can be applied to gear. Yes, you can grind it out to get that gear, or you can pay and get it now, while squashing those without the gear in every aspect of the game until they catch up. Then finallly everyone catches up to the paying players, and then new, better gear comes out! Guess who's going to be grinding whole being overshadowed by the paying players again?

    As you see, it's still pay to win.

    Well, at a point there were 8 million free players in Runescape and 2 million members, so yes, there are people who will grind to get what paying people get easyer.

    Yet you are still trapped in wow (or something similarly broken), the whole concept of accepting that it will take longer for being free is unfathomable for you. That for very few people a mmo means a constant cycle of new gear new content and resets that make anything before that meaningless, and that very few games actually are like that.

    No, i dont see, i am not you :)

    Flame on!

    :)

     

  • Fly666monkeyFly666monkey Albuqurque, NMPosts: 146Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Banaghran

    Originally posted by Fly666monkey


    Originally posted by Banaghran


    Originally posted by Fly666monkey

    So, having a tiered sub system is deceptive, but pay to win isn't? Gotcha.

    You have missed the point i think, "Players can buy  the best item/gear available in the game" does not mean those items are not available to free players, if they put the effort in, buying is just easyer.

    Not every game is structured like wow, especially korean ones, where after you get BiS everything you are done and all you can do is show off.

    But you may have a different definition of pay2win , please elaborate :)

    Flame on!

    :)

    Do you really think anyone is going to want to grind to get gear that other players can just pay for? Let me give you an example:

    In the Nexon published game, Mabinogi, if you are a free player, you can "Rebirth" your character ever 3 weeks, which resets your level while keeping your stats. After lvl 20 or so, leveling progression slows down IMMENSELY, so you get only a few points to increase your skills, and later on oin the game, won't be able to advance any of your skills untill after several rebirths.

    A paying player, on the other hand, can RB every week, and as such advance MUCH faster than free players. You're not forced to pay to advance, you can just grind it out for free, but you will alwayts be behind those who pay.

    So that's the idea of "Paying for convinience" for you. The same concept can be applied to gear. Yes, you can grind it out to get that gear, or you can pay and get it now, while squashing those without the gear in every aspect of the game until they catch up. Then finallly everyone catches up to the paying players, and then new, better gear comes out! Guess who's going to be grinding whole being overshadowed by the paying players again?

    As you see, it's still pay to win.

    Well, at a point there were 8 million free players in Runescape and 2 million members, so yes, there are people who will grind to get what paying people get easyer.

    Yet you are still trapped in wow (or something similarly broken), the whole concept of accepting that it will take longer for being free is unfathomable for you. That for very few people a mmo means a constant cycle of new gear new content and resets that make anything before that meaningless, and that very few games actually are like that.

    No, i dont see, i am not you :)

    Flame on!

    :)

     

    What do you mean I'm "Trapped in WoW?" Your argument makes zero sense. (BTW, I haven't play WoW since BC.) And WoW, BROKEN? I can think of many negative things about WoW, but broken is not one of them. I get the feeling that this is just a jab at me.

    The rest of your argument makes no sense either. If I, by paying money, can gain power that free players cannot, that is pay to win. And just because free players can grind their way to what payng players get instantly, does not change this fact. You should NEVER be able to pay for power. No matter the gameplay, paying for power is pay 2 win. Period. 

    And your runescape argument is baseless, because free players CANNOT do everything paying players can. Try again.

     

  • maplestonemaplestone Ottawa, ONPosts: 3,099Member

    Originally posted by Fly666monkey

    I hope I'm not the only one who is a little confused by the attitude of people who jump into F2P games and expect everything to be free.

    You are honestly surprised that people would read "free to play" when you write "free to play"?

  • MadnessRealmMadnessRealm Montreal, QCPosts: 2,716Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Fly666monkey

    I hope I'm not the only one who is a little confused by the attitude of people who jump into F2P games and expect everything to be free.

    I don't think players expect to have everything for free. Most F2Ps don't limit content (compared to F2P Converts like LOTRO or DDO were you have to buy the other classes, or new areas, etc.), however they do sell some large bonuses in various shapes or forms that only cash shop users will get, and all players understand that. However, most of these players are happy enough with what they get, so they are indeed playing the whole game for free.

    Short example. I've played Dragon Nest for a little while, made a few characters, one reaching over Lv.30ish (cap is 40 at the moment I think). I've never spent a single buck, never had any intention to either, so I did play for free. If you look at it this way, F2P in this case would be the equivalent of a Freeware. I believe the stats were 74% of F2P players don't spend any money 13% spends casually, another 13% spends a lot. Those stats were from a research in 2011, sadly Newzoo seems to have changed what they show on their website so people buy the whole research report (quite expensive I might add). Still, if 74% of F2P players don't spend any money, than it should come as to no surprise that players perceive F2P as Freewares, and it's not a bad way to look at it either because there is some truth to it.

    ------
    Your daily dose of common sense since 2009!

  • BanaghranBanaghran HuisoPosts: 869Member

    Originally posted by Fly666monkey

    What do you mean I'm "Trapped in WoW?" Your argument makes zero sense. (BTW, I haven't play WoW since BC.) And WoW, BROKEN? I can think of many negative things about WoW, but broken is not one of them. I get the feeling that this is just a jab at me.

    The rest of your argument makes no sense either. If I, by paying money, can gain power that free players cannot, that is pay to win. And just because free players can grind their way to what payng players get instantly, does not change this fact. You should NEVER be able to pay for power. No matter the gameplay, paying for power is pay 2 win. Period. 

    And your runescape argument is baseless, because free players CANNOT do everything paying players can. Try again.

     

    Trapped in wow in terms of argumentation that involves the desire to be at the endgame at all times, only being interested in that, discontinuing everything else and that most of the playes of any game are not at the endgame (and that many games dont even have endgame).

    Runescape is actually very valid, because the main drive for becoming members is NOT the skills you dont have, because on free servers NOONE has those, they just dont work, but the sheer work involved in raising the skills you have, for example prayer skill (some form of mana to fuel personal buffs) is trained by burrying bones, you need 13 million exp to max it, free players can only aquire bones that give 15 exp per bone, members have 200+ exp bones, each bone takes 2 seconds and a mouse click to bury, with loading and unloading your 28 spot inventory at a bank, you do the math. But there are still players who have reached the maxlevel this way, and many more that try.

    But to play devils advocate, yes, the point "noone has on free" can be the main one. From my experience, some players see themselves as a part of a elite group, that already progresses 2-3 times faster than the grey majority, when approaching a "free" game they expect to be able to make up for not paying by working harder and still be at worst a bit behind "normal people", which is impossible if they dont have access.

    Flame on!

    :)

     

  • DatarinDatarin SydneyPosts: 164Member

    Originally posted by Fly666monkey

    This whole "F2P games should give me everything for free, GIMMMEGIMMEGIMME." attitude makes no sense.

    It makes sense if you ever see the marketing for a F2P MMO. They don't market it as "it's freemium, you gotta a cash shop (that keeps certain desirable features of the game locked, or entire sections of content)", they say "it's free! COMPLETELY free! Come play it now!". The very phrase "free to play" is word play: they're saying it's free to "play", the word "play" being very literal. However, the user feels that the word "play" means "playing", which in a subjective view, can mean the entire game. Nowhere is this stated, but implied heavily.

    Downloadable trials are a different matter: most companies would advertise it as a trial or "try it out now!" which then wouldn't be labeled as false advertising, which can be illegal in some countries.

    Forums: The best real-time interactive MMORPG you'll ever be in.

  • WarmakerWarmaker San Diego, CAPosts: 2,231Member

    How can you blame people who get upset with a F2P title when they start seeing item shops and whatever costs in the game?  When you plaster the word "Free" there's alot of expectations about that.  The ads, even none of the ads shown on this website, don't exactly break it down in how stuff is set aside for laying down more and more money.  There's a reason why they were interested in "Free" 2 Play to begin with.

    $$$

    "I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)

  • FreeBooteRFreeBooteR Surrey, BCPosts: 333Member

    I think the term free to play is unfortunate. Truly it should be changed to gimped to play. Your completely gimped unless you unlock every little fricking thing, which becomes highly annoying and tends to cost more than pay to play (sub). I'm looking forward to a certain little title that is buy to play (no sub).

    Archlinux ftw

  • PsychoPigeonPsychoPigeon UnkownPosts: 565Member Uncommon

    I don't understand this mentality that monthly fee = quality in MMOs, GW2 is a perfect example that no monthly fee and a cash shop can be good

  • JoeyMMOJoeyMMO SomewherePosts: 1,326Member

    Free to Play is just that, Free to Play. So many things are advertised as Free.

    Big Mac FREE! (with the purchase of 2 Big Mac menus).

    It's not because someone interprets "Free" as "really totally absolutely Free, no strings attached, really!" that they're right of course. Certainly on the Internet a healthy dose of scepticism is best kept at the ready.

    imageimage
  • WarmakerWarmaker San Diego, CAPosts: 2,231Member

    Originally posted by PsychoPigeon

    I don't understand this mentality that monthly fee = quality in MMOs, GW2 is a perfect example that no monthly fee and a cash shop can be good

    It's not so much as quality for a P2P scheme.  It's everyone that plays the game has the same chance of getting something, or equal chance of access to something / a location, provided they do the work for it.

    "I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)

  • AnirethAnireth Posts: 599Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Warmaker

    Originally posted by PsychoPigeon

    I don't understand this mentality that monthly fee = quality in MMOs, GW2 is a perfect example that no monthly fee and a cash shop can be good

    It's not so much as quality for a P2P scheme.  It's everyone that plays the game has the same chance of getting something, or equal chance of access to something / a location, provided they do the work for it.

    With the cash shops many major P2P games feature, this argument is invalid. You do not get a celestial steed in WoW by paying the subscription etc.

    I'll wait to the day's end when the moon is high
    And then I'll rise with the tide with a lust for life, I'll
    Amass an army, and we'll harness a horde
    And then we'll limp across the land until we stand at the shore

  • MosesZDMosesZD Kirkwood, MOPosts: 1,383Member

    Originally posted by Banquetto

     




    Originally posted by Kabaal

    For the games that used to be P2P then convert to F2P ill sum it up in one question... Why should i have to buy what i've already bought and spent hundreds of pounds on over the past X years?





    You think renting something for a while entitles you to own it for free? Excellent, I'll finish replying to this thread as soon as I've phoned my landlord and told him to sign over the deed to my house. I've been renting this place long enough that I think I deserve to own it now. For free.

     

    I think you're misunderstanding what he's saying.

     

     In P2P you FREQUENTLY buy the client, like it was with the early LOTRO and  DDO games.   And, of course, there are many others as well...

    When some games go F2P, like LOTRO, you got to keep what you'd bought.  So, if you had Mines of Moria expansion pack, you could continue to run the Grand Stair or some such. You could still get Moria quests. You could still deed in Moria.SOME games when they go F2P make you buy all the nice classes/races/dungoens/etc. you were getting with your old purchased client/sub model.   And, of course, you could still play your rune-keeper...

    OTOH, some games don't do that when they go F2P.   Essentially forcing you to re-buy essential items/races/areas you've already bought once.

    It's the second group he seems to be complaining about.  Those that don't give you credit for the fact you've bought the client and paid for all those races/areas/dungeons/classes at least one time already...

     

     

  • SlampigSlampig Chantilly, VAPosts: 2,376Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Fly666monkey

    I hope I'm not the only one who is a little confused by the attitude of people who jump into F2P games and expect everything to be free.

    Anytime a f2p game cuts co0ntent off from free players, I see countless people complaining that they have to pay for it. Even in a game that used to be P2P and required you to buy both the game AND pay a sub to access the game AT ALL.

    F2P is not Freeware.

    It's a buisiness model. So long as F2P games provide quality content, and don't fall into gambling/P2W traps, I see no reason to complain. Guess what? These games have to make money, too.

    This whole "F2P games should give me everything for free, GIMMMEGIMMEGIMME." attitude makes no sense. If you're willing to pay a sub to access an MMO, then I see no reason to whine when they decide to let you have SOME of that content without paying.

    I'm glad I got that off my chest.

    Remember though, you ARE dealing with people on this site that get pissed when a company tries to make money. I know I know, such greedy hucksters, trying to make a buck and all, but that seems to be a prevailing mindset on this website for some reason.

    That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!

  • MosesZDMosesZD Kirkwood, MOPosts: 1,383Member

    Originally posted by ste2000

    Let's get this off my chest..........

    If I have to pay to buy content...........it's not free to play, because if I don't buy it I won't be able to play it...........it looks like a simple concept to me

    Go and play some Asian F2P and then play EQ2 or AoC, if you can't see the difference between them it means that you are not very smart.

    The Korean/Chinese ones are F2P because they offer access to the whole content........for free.

    Then we have the Western F2P which are not, because you have to buy parts of the content to be able to play it decently,  therefore they should not be called F2P because it is false advertisement.

     

    So how Asian MMO make money?

    Simple

    1) Leveling Potion or EXP Boost (Since they use slow leveling as standard, those sell well)

    2) Players can buy  the best item/gear available in the game

    3) Players can buy appereance items

     

    So if someone wants to play for free, they can, but it will take them longer to level and acquire the best gear, but apart from that, there is no limitation to the content they can access.

    Alternativetly, you can buy your way up.

    That's how a F2P should work.

    What the Western MMO developers do, it's just just a dirty trick, and although it is not illegal, it is highly deceiving.

     

    Ah, Mabinogi...   I played that for years.   Yes, it is absolutely free-to-play.   And you can succeed and do everything the sub players do except put up shops if you're over level 20 (alt account!!!) , some small inventory issues (alt account, stay under level 20!!!+  and you can't own player housing (alt account, stay under level 20).   

    In short, one alt account bypasses even those small restrictions.

    OTOH, they make a TON of money from the cash-shop.   My daughter plays that game and it's at least $25 a month without a sub!     Sometimes $50 when a coveted pet, like a dragon, comes out...     The money rolls in...      And compared to her friends...  She's restrained!     She's "Ms Cheap."    And it's still $25 a month...

  • WickedjellyWickedjelly Yahoo, COPosts: 4,990Member

    Frankly, I think you're wrong in your assumption. Most I have seen in no way, shape, or form expect to get everythig for free.

    Not sure why some still seem to think people do.

    1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.

    2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.

    3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.

  • spizzspizz BlackForrestPosts: 2,587Member

    Because they fail for their marketing strategies. Free to play attracts those who dont want to play for monthly subs, cash shop attracts those who see an advantage with it. At the end f2p is just a trick to draw attention.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member

    Originally posted by Fly666monkey

    I hope I'm not the only one who is a little confused by the attitude of people who jump into F2P games and expect everything to be free.

    Anytime a f2p game cuts co0ntent off from free players, I see countless people complaining that they have to pay for it. Even in a game that used to be P2P and required you to buy both the game AND pay a sub to access the game AT ALL.

    F2P is not Freeware.

    It's a buisiness model. So long as F2P games provide quality content, and don't fall into gambling/P2W traps, I see no reason to complain. Guess what? These games have to make money, too.

    This whole "F2P games should give me everything for free, GIMMMEGIMMEGIMME." attitude makes no sense. If you're willing to pay a sub to access an MMO, then I see no reason to whine when they decide to let you have SOME of that content without paying.

    I'm glad I got that off my chest.

     

    Agreed. People should be HAPPY that they got SOME of the content for FREE. MOST don't pay anyway.

  • alkarionlogalkarionlog SPosts: 1,125Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Originally posted by Fly666monkey

    I hope I'm not the only one who is a little confused by the attitude of people who jump into F2P games and expect everything to be free.

    Anytime a f2p game cuts co0ntent off from free players, I see countless people complaining that they have to pay for it. Even in a game that used to be P2P and required you to buy both the game AND pay a sub to access the game AT ALL.

    F2P is not Freeware.

    It's a buisiness model. So long as F2P games provide quality content, and don't fall into gambling/P2W traps, I see no reason to complain. Guess what? These games have to make money, too.

    This whole "F2P games should give me everything for free, GIMMMEGIMMEGIMME." attitude makes no sense. If you're willing to pay a sub to access an MMO, then I see no reason to whine when they decide to let you have SOME of that content without paying.

    I'm glad I got that off my chest.

     

    Agreed. People should be HAPPY that they got SOME of the content for FREE. MOST don't pay anyway.

    that freemium model came with DDO and western type of f2p, with F2P is even less real then the eastern way.

     

    western way, lock content(need to pay to keep playing, lock certain dungeons, or keep lvling after a certain mark), keep hard to lvl after the mid game, sell things like basics equips helpers to lvl, pets mounts, all that other useless crap to keep chars cute.

     

    eastern way, keep all content free, keep lvling hardafter mid game, sell basic equips, helpers to lvl, cutesy pets and clothes, mounts and all other crap

     

    we then have some in both cases who sell power items like full graded maed equips or pots with a lot less CD or no DC at all

    and we can't forget the all after +4 anything can break unless you buy a certain item who prevent it, also help you chances to success with our items, who even with then the max chance is 90%

     

    so in the end F2p cost you a lot more then P2P, but at least the eastern don't lock you out of things, the western do.

     

    in the end if you are PvPer, or want a fair ply field you take a P2P game

    FOR HONOR, FOR FREEDOM.... and for some money.
    image

  • IsasisIsasis San Diego, CAPosts: 416Member

    Because it is supposed to be FREE to play.

     

    Not, "free" except paying more than a monthly fee to unlock things or buy items.

     

    It is a scam.

     

    Guild Wars is actually FREE to play, minus buying the game once...never have to pay again after that.

     

    Unlike LOTRO, EQ2 and AoC and other "free" MMOs...your paying more than you would have if it was pay to play.

     

    Huge rip off.

    My youtube channel:

    MMORPG.com is like 4chan, but for gamers.

    WoW already does WoW good.

    PvPers that gank newbies, are carebears. They don't want a challenge (like a carebear), they just want easy mode (like a carebear) and a no challenge combat (like a carebear).

  • GajariGajari Halifax, NSPosts: 984Member

    Originally posted by Fly666monkey

    I hope I'm not the only one who is a little confused by the attitude of people who jump into F2P games and expect everything to be free.

    Anytime a f2p game cuts co0ntent off from free players, I see countless people complaining that they have to pay for it. Even in a game that used to be P2P and required you to buy both the game AND pay a sub to access the game AT ALL.

    F2P is not Freeware.

    It's a buisiness model. So long as F2P games provide quality content, and don't fall into gambling/P2W traps, I see no reason to complain. Guess what? These games have to make money, too.

    This whole "F2P games should give me everything for free, GIMMMEGIMMEGIMME." attitude makes no sense. If you're willing to pay a sub to access an MMO, then I see no reason to whine when they decide to let you have SOME of that content without paying.

    I'm glad I got that off my chest.

    Because the games are absolute shit and people subject themselves to this torture because it's supposedly free?

    Feces 2 Play

  • WarmakerWarmaker San Diego, CAPosts: 2,231Member

    Originally posted by Anireth

    Originally posted by Warmaker


    Originally posted by PsychoPigeon

    I don't understand this mentality that monthly fee = quality in MMOs, GW2 is a perfect example that no monthly fee and a cash shop can be good

    It's not so much as quality for a P2P scheme.  It's everyone that plays the game has the same chance of getting something, or equal chance of access to something / a location, provided they do the work for it.

    With the cash shops many major P2P games feature, this argument is invalid. You do not get a celestial steed in WoW by paying the subscription etc.

    It's how the business used to be.  P2P games were not like that before.  Your point is valid, but it also one of the reasons why I believe the MMORPG genre is worthless.

    Take for instance Cryptic's Star Trek Online - It was once a subscription game WITH cash shop.

    A true P2P game is an equal game for all.  You buy, subscribe per month / 6 months / year, and you have equal access to everything just like anyone else playing the game.  Whatever the developers patch in, everyone has a fair shot at it.  Only difference is a massive expansion pack sold for some more money ($30 USD years ago for an expansion pack).

    A P2P game with Cash Shop isn't really a P2P game, IMO.  Just a F2P wannabe but morally bankrupt enough to still charge a subscription with a cash shop in place.

    "I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)

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