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General: Mentoring is Motivation
SBFord
Former Associate EditorMember LegendaryPosts: 33,129
One of the biggest complaints about MMOs today is that we are always seemingly on the fast track to the endgame. But once there, then what? In today's Player Perspectives we offer you the powerful motivating factor that mentoring other lower-level players can bring to players after all of their guildies are off to other games or just aren't around as much. See if you agree and then weigh in with your comments.
There is a solution, and it’s one some games (like City of Heroes/Villains) adopted years ago: introduce a mechanic that temporarily adds or removes character levels. In CoX you sidekick up to within a couple of levels of the higher character, while in EQ2 you mentor down to a lower level, but the basic mechanic is the same. Either way, characters whose levels are too disparate to allow them to meaningfully enjoy content together – so content is neither impossible nor trivial – can close the gap and do stuff as a group.
Read more of Isabelle Parsley's Player Perspectives: Mentoring is Motivation.
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Comments
With the sorry state of MMO endgame as it currently is, a filler system such as this doesn't seem like a bad idea but redundancy is nothing awesome. Player driven endgame content so the journey can keep going is where it's at. Even if friends among other friends pull ahead or get left behind, everyone hitting level cap will put those differences to rest and they will be reunited never having to worry about pace of leveling further with those characters.
As someone who has friends who level much faster than I do, I would love a system like this. To the above poster(Macrohard) I would say, if I don't ever get to endgame content because I loose the drive to play after my friends outlevel me, how does adding more endgame content help me? Even if I do eventually hit max-level, with most games I still can't play with my friends because they are doing gated content. And, if I ever do happen to catch them, that's usually when a new expansion gets released, which starts the the whole process over again. It's a never ending battle to catch up, and it's a real de-motivator to keep playing the game.
It's always good to have features like this. However, I personally feel that player-made content is one of the best forms of entertaining the "end-game", e.g., guilds merging together to form player cities etc. This alone will ultimately lead to player rival cities; thus, prolonging the game.
I don't bother with endgame in most mmo's mostly because I feel its pointless, Whats the point to pve raids? you have no more use at all for the gear you work for, I just never seen the draw to it. Now dark age of camelot was one of the games that actually did it right. You raid for gear (or used to before spellmaking) and then you'd go pvp with it, taking keeps and such in the frontier, it gave a reason to raid. WoW, Swtor, Rift etc, none of these have any real incentive to raid. I just don't see how people keep falling for wow's "endgame" at all, are they just blind? MMO's used to be about the journey before wow came out, after it did there was a switch where everyone wants to rush to max lv. EQ2 did it well I think, you have the alternate advancement system which gives you points to use on various talent trees, and they are earned by earning xp, completing quests, killing named enemies and bosses, exploring, and various other ways, its a good reason to raid/explore.
Now of course because other game makers have seen wow's formula works/worked they blindly just copy and paste from wow (You notice this heavilty in rift and especally swtor) These games do alright, but players looking for a new mmo aren't looking for a game thats a clone of wow. Sorry, but.. if imma buy a new mmo thats out, I don't want it to feel like a cheezy knock-off of the current most successful mmo.
Me? I've mostly given up on mmo's since they all end up being wow clones and play/feel exactly like it. rift was, swtor was, I bet GW2 will be as well. I am waiting for phantasy star online 2, since this game seems to be about the journey which is what mmo's used to be.
I went a bit off topic here but.. back on topic now. I don't understand why people in a newly released mmo rush to max level, then whine about lack of content. They aren't gonna start mass producing content just because a few people with no life's hit the cap in a few days. Then said rushers get bored and end up quitting due to nothing to do. The new content is not going to come till a few months after release. This is also why mmo's need to stop making it so easy to hit the cap as well. If you want sub retention you can't let them get max lv in a week or so with semi-casual play, especally in a mmo that has just released and lacks any real endgame content. Sadly I doubt we are going to see any real innovation in mmorpg design till world of warcraft dies in nuclear hellfire like it so badly needs to.
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+1
Feel exactly the same way. I am playing EQ2 now and loving every minute. I would also say the mechanic to stop XP or to 'slide' more of your XP into AA is ingenious as it allows the player to determine how fast they level (which in turn controls the challenge).
Or how about removing levels all together and just having 'skill' points that can be awarded to new abilities. I have always been a fan of the 'get-better-the-more-you-use-something' rather than an abiguous level. This way there is no race to the top because there is no top. Some may say it would be unbalanced for PvP, but I would turn that around into a challenge. If you keep losing in PvP develop more skills. That presents a better reason (for me) to take part in PvP then raiding over and over again for the same gear.
Rushing to max level ruins the point of MMO in general. If you are rushing to PvP why cant they just make a PvP game and start everyone high level. Would be more economical. Not saying to get rid of those types, but create others along side it. MMOs (or at least a subset of them) should be about the Journey, giving me grand vistas to experience that just cannot be done on a console. Whoever produces THAT MMO will get a lot of money and commitment from me
Who needs to be mentored in games that only really require you to hit tab and then mash your number buttons?
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
Mentor/sidekick system should be a required feature in any lvl gearbased MMO. I usually start a new MMO with a couple of rl friends or people I know from other MMO's. The most annoying part in any MMO for us, is when we get seperated because of the lvling curve and cant team together without destroying xp, or worse (imo) that the higher lvl player is one shotting each mob.
Im always amazed that not a lot more players ask for this feature. Most players really seem to approach MMORPG's as a solo experience. Because the way casual grouping with LFG tools works, it makes other players in your PUGS nothing more then anonymous people you ride the subway with. Nothing wrong with that of course, but its the irony in it when some of those same ppl want to see more forced grouping with the argument that its supposed to be more social lol.
For me its clear. If a level based MMO doesnt have a mentor/sidekick feature, I see it as a flaw.
Im also happy that Arenanet with Guild Wars 2 chose for automatically scaling down of high lvl players in low lvl areas. No more silly one shotting of mobs.
More game designers need to actively care about seeing players able to play who who every they want when ever they want. Don't call it an MMO if you are going to design all kinds of barriers to put between people.
All die, so die well.
You are taking it off topic with the no levels bit. The topic was talking about games that have levels. I know how levels must offend you but do you have to open your pie hole about it?
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Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
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RPGs are not inherently welcoming to new players. As an example I was speaking with someone who stated he quit playing Fallout: New Vegas because he could not beat the last boss. Like 95% of people he leveled up guns throughout the game and because of this he was missing core skills for beating the boss (like speech, endurance and melee).
MMOs are no different. What stat should you stack as X class? As an experienced gamer I know the answer is look at your highest stat. But then how do you get there? Hrm...
When I hit Level 50 I didn't know where anything at all was. I needed guild mates to help me figure out that there was a transfer ship that would bring me to raids.
The ability to ignore level for the purpose of questing would not be all that value in SWTOR because it is largely based around personal adventure. Why would I as a Level 21 command for example leave Tatooine for Hoth when my personal adventure quests are on Tatooine and Alderaan?
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This is what impresses me about EvE: Academy, many efforts to offer mentoring in recognition that there is a need: 1. Learning Curve 2. Dangerous players/parts of space.
I wish more mmorpgs had this vibe. Eg more of a Hero's actual Journey being created if an "old guide" is not just an option but a requirement almost, to progress.
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem
This subject has been beaten to death. Hey Isabelle, have you heard of this game coming out called Guild Wars 2?? You might want to read into that game, because it will have a sidekick system. And most mmos after GW2 will probably follow suit. So writing yet another article about this, when this feature is already coming in the future, is kind of redundant.
That is basically what it boils down to. A lot of MMO's nowadays go out of their way to discourage grouping.
I actually like TOR's companion system, even though I'm a group based guy. It does help solo players. BUt they did nothing to enhance group based play, outside of maybe 10% of quests on a planet requiring a group. Yes, you get XP bonuses for grouping, but for most people who play over 3-4 hours a day, it is pretty worthless. Even the very casual player is going to hit 50 in 6-8 weeks. (And right now, I am that very casual player, who is in the high 20's after 3 weeks, who only plays if he can group with his guildies who are rarely on during my playtime lol)
The lack of some type of mentoring is actually my biggest regret about SWTOR. It's because I only play a few nights a week because of my work schedule.
For example, I'm playing on Taris, think my level is 24, and I'm running missions with two other players, a 22 and 23. We have a good time and add each other to our friends lists. Now, I'm saying my goodbyes and letting them know I won't be on for another 3-4 days.
Fast-forward to 3-4 days later when I'm able to play again. I'm at level 24, but the two players I would have liked to run missions with are 30 and 31. They're so far ahead and that puts a big block between us. It just sucks.
Yeh I just cancled my swtor sub for this reason too. A group of my friends all restarted on a server together to play as a group after all soloing to 50 on a previous server. We've tried for a few weeks to keep things thogether but its just impossible. If you dont log in for even one evening everyone is 4 levels and a whole planet ahead and we cant play together. I'd like to see a mmo that lets you play with your friends rather than putting up so many barriers. I'm hoping GW2's mentoring/sidekicking system and dynamic events will be the answer.
For games like SWTOR, where you have a linear level design and progression, even mentoring wouldn't be a solution. Many players cancelled subscriptions before trying all classes becuase no one felt like doing those same quests all over again. Then, why would they do it for other people?
The mentoring system in Achaea is fantastic. The mentor and protege gain double experience while exploring together
i'm speaking of player-driven content in which everyone can participate once hitting cap. You are confusing what I said with the needless end-game dribble that is the "sorry state of MMOs" I was referring to. What I'm talking about is meaningful content in which friends can play together meaningfully once again.. even when once being split apart by variance in leveling rates.
For me mentoring doesn't seem to be connected to the quality of the endgame at all. Giving bonuses for mentoring is to ruin it completely. You know - you want people to help each other, but truth is it's not really a help, when you get paid for it. People will find ways to exploit it (like mentoring only guild-mate alts) so occasional players for whom the system is designed in the first place will have trouble finding a mentor. Actually there are lots of people who want to help without any incentive in the player driven games like Ultima and EVE, where you are needed rather as a potential future long term business partner (crafter/resource supplier etc.), not just some guy who can make you pre-raid gear and/or someone you can have a quick dungeon run with. It is because most in-game items in such games are expendable and you'll need constant supply at a good price/from a friend.
Anyway - the only way to make the endgame funny is to make it ... you know... funny )) People play poker for years. There is no levels, no gear, the deck is always the same, but it is funny. The good MMO will be like that - during leveling you just learn the game rules and all the cards in the deck. After that you enter "endgame" or I would rather say "the game itself" and enjoy it. There should be no character progress (gear tiers etc.) during the endgame - except for growing player skill. That is why multiplayer shooters like CS, Battlefield, Modern Warfare are so popular. It is funny and entertaining to play them.
Most modern MMOs try to replace the entertainment part by "leveling" which is usually doing borring dull things you don't want to do (grind) to get to the "endgame" which is supposed to be like heaven, but it is usually the same thing you get right from the start in the multiplayer team shooters/coop games but worse, since the developers focused on the boring "leveling" part not on the "endgame".
The mentoring system in EQ2 feels rather broken to me.
A fellow guildmember ran me through a couple low level dungeons on the Freeport side, Wailing Caves and Fallen Gate to be exact, and it was ridiculous how he was shrugging off attacks from groups of enemies where an individual one would have dropped me in 2 hits.
He was barely taking damage at all.
I don't know what SOE's real intention was for mentoring, but I would doubt it has anything to do with allowing higher level players to group up with lower level players in order to help with challenging content. For as easily as the mentor blasts through the content, they may as well have been at their normal level, because any sense of challenge is obliterated. The only difference I see is between the mentee getting xp or not getting xp.
Well this to me goes to any "mentoring" system really. In fact its kind of the same in a level-less game simply due to the fact you'd have someone with a complete skill set with you.
Could a buddy that just started SWG play with me? sure... heck our on PA had a few people early in rifleman that always asked for groups. Depending on your skill set they might not even get a shot off before the mobs were dead.. and in that game they had to do some damage to get the xp they were looking for.
So its the same relative thing... it does allow you to help someone but its not about "challenge" at all.
I'll tell you exactly how Mentoring is generally used in EQ2...
Level 90: Will powerlevel for XX plat per hour.
Guy goes and buys either a SC card or and this may not be done anymore a box of cards (digital). They then find someone in game who will play plat for one or the other... and then trade the plat for power leveling.
The 90 is simply doing it for plat or AA because they get a boost to xp for mentoring and all xp is going to AA...
or at least that is a common scenario in EQ2.. and I really like EQ2 but I'm not blind to what goes on there.
Good points.
I wasn't aware of the scenario you described above. But then, I've been away from the game for well over a year.
Though in my case, it was purely a guild-mate trying to help me through some content. I honestly expected it to be more of a challenge than what it was. I barely had time to unsheathe my weapon before everything was dead.
It makes me really doubt the sincerity of people I see asking for a mentoring system merely so they can group up with their lower level friends.
That is unless by "helping lower level players", SOE and other companies explicitly mean "power leveling lower level players".
Well to be honest I do not like level games at all for various reasons. Well MMO's that is.. I don't really care in the RPG world.
You can help new friends or friends that come into a game.
It just regardless of level based or skill based... in UO a 7x GM (early uo) was going to be much better at combat or should be.. then a new guy with the starting gear and points. Then again in UO if you wanted to raise a skill we could just fight each other and then you could level up your bandaging if you were using it etc... you didn't even have to fight mobs.
In a level game without mentoring I have to start a new toon... which I might do for a very good friend. I'm not going to start a new character for every new person.
I mean at some point almost all games get top heavy and if you have a guild it may not have a lot of low level. I do think its tough for new people if they can never group with their guild and usually nobody wants to help new people after a while.
So the systems can be good in many ways... if you watch 1-9 in eq2 especially on Antonia Bayle.. it will not take long to see what I was talking about. There are people who use the system as intended.. but no .. you won't see the challenge in group content with someone mentoring. Especially if they are say a Shadow Knight.. if they are raid geared and high AA they could probably pull most instances they are mentored down to.. in one pull and kill it all. Just depends on how far down they are mentored... at some point that changes of course.
I just wanted to say +1 to mentoring programs
I have played a lot of the games he has mentioned and by far EQ2's mentorign system is one of the best things I have ever seen in an MMO.