They should just have a game where all you do is pk and there are no quests or anything you just pk all day. And then you pk so much that your eyes bleed and you have to take a break from pking. Then you pk some more until you die. They should call it, ironically, Death From Pking So Hard. Plus there are cool mounts. I must develop this game immediately.
Games like this already exist......load any FPS
AMD Phenum II x4 3.6Ghz 975 black edition 8 gig Ram Nvidia GeForce GTX 760
Aika has a system where they have two channels one for PvE and one for PvP. This system works very well. Each type player has the option to jump the fence and enter the tohers world. It is an intersting system.
I think that many people who normally do not indulge in pvp would enjoy it if they were able to pick and chose when to indulge and when to opt out should they decide its to much for them
I like pvp but i also like seeing none pvpers get a taste of it and learn to love it.
I have always been a guild leader in games with pvp to some deggree and my rule of thumb has always been never run solo. Group up and watch your backs. I never had any sympathy for anyone in the clan who insisted on running solo and would often simply ignor them. But on the other side of that coin if a group needed help in PVP the whole clan would show up.
AMD Phenum II x4 3.6Ghz 975 black edition 8 gig Ram Nvidia GeForce GTX 760
Now Granted I love Player vs Player, and Carebear blueberry whining kinda makes me rage a bit. BUT, I am also not such a prick to go about ganking lowbies because I'm bored either. Though swatting them is kinda fun when they get mouthy. STILL. Camping is not cool. Granted I like PvE and I like PvP, I even like the tension that comes from knowing that someone could if I am in the wrong place at the wrong time, swoop down and gank my ass. Makes the game feel more real to me.
Taking a cue from Starwars when they Boost your Characters stats for Battlegrounds 10-49 to make you competitive, I thought of these two possible solutions for lowbie ganking.
First idea - If a character gets Player Killed by someone who is more than ten levels above them more than two times in half-an-hour, the player that is attacked gets boosted to max level immediatly upon being attack the third time. If a lower player initiaties the attack, such as the lowby attacking the high level, this boost does not occur.
Second Idea - If a character attacks the same player who is ten levels lower than themselves more than two times in a half-an-hour time period, the attacker immediatly drops to 1st level upon initiating the third attack agianst the same target a third time. I personally like this one hehe. Call it a Dishonorable De-Buff.
Of course these would have global cooldowns, like an hour or so before you could go back to ganking lowbies. Or at least the same Lowbie.
I once suggested, in an effort to empower those that don't want to PvP but do want to have no restrictions, that a player could own land, decide the laws that govern their land and build a punishment system.
All these things are tools for a player.
A tool to 'own' land and mark it as owned.
A tool to 'Legislate' owned land to govern what can or cannot be done within it's borders.
A tool to allow 'Punishment' for those that break the laws of the land.
For example: -
Player A is the cowardly Pv'er, Player B the heroic ganker.
If player A wanders outside his own 'owned' lands he is subject to either no laws at all or if he wanders into the land of player B, the laws of player B. Player B, being the maverick ganker type doesn't have any rules though so Player A upon leaving his own lands is totally open to attack without retribution.
If player B wanders outside his own 'owned' lands he is subject to either no laws at all or if he wanders into the land of player A, the laws of player A. Player A, being the Scared noob that he is craves a safe environment so his laws are No stealing, no attacking, no killing. The punishment for each of these crimes is 1 hour, 2 hours, 3 hours in jail respectivly.
Now while Player A is not TOTALLY safe anywhere. On his own land he at least knows that should his rules be broken the ganker must spend in game time in jail.
The main objection was towards jail time. No one wants to spend time in jail. My argument was don't kill somone on their land though. I personally don't have problems with this idea and to be honest, think only those not really interested in FFA PvP for the excitement or RP value but simply for pissing others off are the ones that dislike punishment.
I agree 100%. The people who are not willing ot rot in jail, or have increased death penalties for PKing are the problem, and they are only there to ruin someone else's fun. I am a pirate on a very dangerous space MMO that you can be taken prisoner. I don't ever complain when I get caught. I sing songs in the brig, and lure stupid ensigns into the cell with me to make escape attempts.
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
The eternal question: if you need to create so many rules to discourage PKing, why are you allowing it in the first place?
This. If your gonna add so many rules aginst killing other players why not make a game like ffxi where there is no pvp at all.
accept Brenner which is an arena no one goes in
The idea is to merge PVP with PVE so that the two game styles can coexist and increase the number of people in the game world. It has been proven many times now that mindless pvp worlds do not draw enough of a player base.
Why do the numbers in the game world need to be increased? To what end?
Why would you play an MMO if you want to solo....
Not really what I was asking unless were talking Skyrim. OK I'll try again. With so many MMO PvE options that do not require PvP what would attract PvE players to an MMO that had such a coexistance? Mechanics against what is undesirable does not provide an incentive it just elimiates what is undesirable. PvE players can get that now without the coexistance.
Why do PVE players differentiate a PVP from a computer controlled? Who cares? It's an enemy. I basically see it as they want something easy to kill that can't think.
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
The eternal question: if you need to create so many rules to discourage PKing, why are you allowing it in the first place?
This. If your gonna add so many rules aginst killing other players why not make a game like ffxi where there is no pvp at all.
accept Brenner which is an arena no one goes in
The idea is to merge PVP with PVE so that the two game styles can coexist and increase the number of people in the game world. It has been proven many times now that mindless pvp worlds do not draw enough of a player base.
Why do the numbers in the game world need to be increased? To what end?
Why would you play an MMO if you want to solo....
Not really what I was asking unless were talking Skyrim. OK I'll try again. With so many MMO PvE options that do not require PvP what would attract PvE players to an MMO that had such a coexistance? Mechanics against what is undesirable does not provide an incentive it just elimiates what is undesirable. PvE players can get that now without the coexistance.
I think there are alot of gamers that are what you might call PvP light players. those that would indulge in pvp from time to time but want it to be more sturctured.
It is my opinion that any game with frag fest pvp will not attract this kind of player and will not attract enough of a player base to be successful no mater how good that game might be in other respects.
Though I consider myself a PVPer I do like to take a break from it from time to time and would like to see a good pvp game with a mix of other activites also.
I may have to start another tead detailing my ideas for an entire game world to make my reasoning clearer.
AMD Phenum II x4 3.6Ghz 975 black edition 8 gig Ram Nvidia GeForce GTX 760
Why do PVE players differentiate a PVP from a computer controlled? Who cares? It's an enemy. I basically see it as they want something easy to kill that can't think.
Maybe some PvE players do, but that is not my reason why I do not like to PvP. I will "attempt" to explain how I see this question of "what's the difference between a NPC and a Player."....
Am I your real life enemy? Are you mine? You sit at your computer and I sit at mine, but a NPC sits nowhere... it is just electrons and pixels. it feels nothing.
But I feel. You feel.
"Thou shalt not kill"; "Thou shalt not steal"
These "idesa" maks a difference since many of our Laws are ultimately based upon these ideas and the others that go with them whether we agree with them or not. They permeate everywhere to one degree or another.
"Oh but wait!" You say... the characters are only Pixels, who cares? The Players care and other Players care. How do I know?
Here's how I know: You character is just pixels, but it represents YOU. My character represents ME. This matters to Griefers.... For Griefers "Use" this idea in their tactics, they rely on it to a degree to cause the effect they seek. You are playing your MMO and wham! a Greifer steals your kill or sneaks up in stealth while you are PvE Hunting and flags you for PvP, which the Greifer takes complete advantage of and makes you take a dirt nap. Sound familiar?
Without the ideas of good and evil and the old laws many of the tactics of the Griefers simply wouldn't get the response they do. It's not just about how it makes the Victim(s)(Player) feel... it's about whether the action was "perceived" as good or bad, right or wrong by the victim and others that know the victim of the Griefing. Sure the victim would still be as mad if no one else cared, but the victim's friends find out and then the witch hunt for the griefer begins... and the Griefers run and grab popcorn for the show. Deny to me this is not what happens sometimes? Deny to me that the Greifers haven't had a load of laughs with these sorts of events and situations?
Griefers know there is a big difference between a NPC and a Player character. They PLAY their game for that difference.
There has always been a difference between a NPC and a real Player and there always will be a difference. Real Players, and their characters, matter. Your character may not be You, but it represents you. It matters.
What if someone is griefing you (eg healing what you're fighting)?
What if you buff someone who is PKing but you didn't realise?
What if you defend someone being attacked and you end up being the one marked as a PKer because you are higher level?
Simple problems with easy solutions:
Q: What if you accidentally attack someone?
A: Have a grace period of about one minute. If in that minute you attack that person again, IE strike them, you get flagged attackable by everyone.
Q: What if someone is griefing you (eg healing what you're fighting)?
A: If someone is healing what you are fighting, then they would be flagged attackable for healing what you are fighting, such as a monster or NPC.
Q: What if you buff someone who is PKing but you didn't realise?
A: Then youre an idiot for not paying attention and get what you deserve for your stupidity. Learn to pay attention and this wont happen, a-DUR.
Q: What if you defend someone being attacked and you end up being the one marked as a PKer because you are higher level?
A: Level shouldnt matter. Alignment/Faction/Justice systems should prevent this. If the person doing the attacking of the victim is flagged as a "criminal/evil" then you wouldnt take a penalty for stopping them from killing an innocent.
See, simple solutions to simple problems. Why game developers cant think of these is... well... kinda dumb and disheartening for those of us who are dying to have an open PvP game.
Why did they have to make Trammel? Why? *hangs head in sadness*
Games are better if they are policed by players rather than by some artificial criminal flag. If you are going to have some sort of criminal system like this you need to have full or at least partial looting. Otherwise there won't be any pvp at all since you get punished for winning, which doesn't sit well with hardcore pvpers.
Are you a Pavlovian Fish Biscuit Addict? Get Help Now! I will play no more MMORPGs until somethign good comes out!
Games are better if they are policed by players rather than by some artificial criminal flag. If you are going to have some sort of criminal system like this you need to have full or at least partial looting. Otherwise there won't be any pvp at all since you get punished for winning, which doesn't sit well with hardcore pvpers.
Full loot on criminals for sure. less loot on lawfull players be they good or evil faction.
keep in mind good, evil are factions not to be confused with criminal(aka greifer). It is perfectly reasonable to have a lawful evil "faction" they get greifed just like the good lawfull players.
AMD Phenum II x4 3.6Ghz 975 black edition 8 gig Ram Nvidia GeForce GTX 760
It wont really work, a ganker will gank no matter what the punishment.
What do work pretty fine is a lot less gap between noobs and leveled up players, and less impact on gear. That turns of the cowardly noob killer at least (or makes him work in groups) since those usually suck so bad that they only attack people they can´t loose against.
The good PvPers on the other hand is impossible to avoid unless you play on a PvE server.
Lineage had the idea that you could PvP flag enemy guilds by declaring war if their prince accepted on PvE servers, that worked fine there but it is really only an option to add a little open PvP on a PvE server.
Let´s face it, if someone can gank you someone will, so you either needs plenty of actual restrictions to stop it (like must flag for PvP or PvP in seperate areas of the game like GW2s the mists).
One of the problems with PvP is game design itself: Levels, Hitpoints, Gear.
The lowbie doesn't stand a chance against the even a mediocre PK.
Until, games enable anybody to kill anybody, no matter the level or gear disparity, PvP will always be an immature joke.
that's why we are talking about different solutions to deter griefing. As long as you're here, read a post or two. Might learn something.
~laughs~ Do you dismiss my point so easily? One of the ways to address the issue is to lessen the disparity created by levels, skills and gear. If lowbies were able to defend themselves against griefers, then griefers wouldn't be able to function..
I just got back from taking the dog for a run , so I've given my reply even further thought.
We can talk about punish griefers, just like we talk about punishing rapists and robbers, but that only arguably lessens the crime rate. I want to empower the would-be victims. Give them choices that work, like being able to run away, to defend themselves or to avoid it altogether. Many of us play these games to be heroes, not victims.
Players always have the option of fight or flight... that's not going anywhere. The whole point of open PvP is to make the game feel less restrictive and give players more options. Not everyone wants to have to queue into a PvP instance just for the sake of fighting players over trivial nonsense that arguably has little to no significant impact on the game itself. PvP takes a backseat to many games that center the majority of their content to PvE. There is nothing wrong with ensuring there is give and take in all things players have access to.. that's the epitomy of balance.
I don't think it's a good idea or makes any real sense to allow a level 1 player to hold his own against a level 58.. Where players don't have the opportunity to adequately defend themselves against griefing.. that's where a punishment system comes in.
Games are better if they are policed by players rather than by some artificial criminal flag. If you are going to have some sort of criminal system like this you need to have full or at least partial looting. Otherwise there won't be any pvp at all since you get punished for winning, which doesn't sit well with hardcore pvpers.
Griefing is not PvP.. mechanics set to contend griefing that also devalue PvP as a whole are simply badly implemented mechanics. Worthwhile systems won't deter PvPers who aren't griefers because these systems won't be hampering their performance/experience.
Comments
Games like this already exist......load any FPS
AMD Phenum II x4 3.6Ghz 975 black edition
8 gig Ram
Nvidia GeForce GTX 760
Aika has a system where they have two channels one for PvE and one for PvP. This system works very well. Each type player has the option to jump the fence and enter the tohers world. It is an intersting system.
I think that many people who normally do not indulge in pvp would enjoy it if they were able to pick and chose when to indulge and when to opt out should they decide its to much for them
I like pvp but i also like seeing none pvpers get a taste of it and learn to love it.
I have always been a guild leader in games with pvp to some deggree and my rule of thumb has always been never run solo. Group up and watch your backs. I never had any sympathy for anyone in the clan who insisted on running solo and would often simply ignor them. But on the other side of that coin if a group needed help in PVP the whole clan would show up.
AMD Phenum II x4 3.6Ghz 975 black edition
8 gig Ram
Nvidia GeForce GTX 760
Now Granted I love Player vs Player, and Carebear blueberry whining kinda makes me rage a bit. BUT, I am also not such a prick to go about ganking lowbies because I'm bored either. Though swatting them is kinda fun when they get mouthy. STILL. Camping is not cool. Granted I like PvE and I like PvP, I even like the tension that comes from knowing that someone could if I am in the wrong place at the wrong time, swoop down and gank my ass. Makes the game feel more real to me.
Taking a cue from Starwars when they Boost your Characters stats for Battlegrounds 10-49 to make you competitive, I thought of these two possible solutions for lowbie ganking.
First idea - If a character gets Player Killed by someone who is more than ten levels above them more than two times in half-an-hour, the player that is attacked gets boosted to max level immediatly upon being attack the third time. If a lower player initiaties the attack, such as the lowby attacking the high level, this boost does not occur.
Second Idea - If a character attacks the same player who is ten levels lower than themselves more than two times in a half-an-hour time period, the attacker immediatly drops to 1st level upon initiating the third attack agianst the same target a third time. I personally like this one hehe. Call it a Dishonorable De-Buff.
Of course these would have global cooldowns, like an hour or so before you could go back to ganking lowbies. Or at least the same Lowbie.
I agree 100%. The people who are not willing ot rot in jail, or have increased death penalties for PKing are the problem, and they are only there to ruin someone else's fun. I am a pirate on a very dangerous space MMO that you can be taken prisoner. I don't ever complain when I get caught. I sing songs in the brig, and lure stupid ensigns into the cell with me to make escape attempts.
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
Not really what I was asking unless were talking Skyrim. OK I'll try again. With so many MMO PvE options that do not require PvP what would attract PvE players to an MMO that had such a coexistance? Mechanics against what is undesirable does not provide an incentive it just elimiates what is undesirable. PvE players can get that now without the coexistance.
Why do PVE players differentiate a PVP from a computer controlled? Who cares? It's an enemy. I basically see it as they want something easy to kill that can't think.
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
I think there are alot of gamers that are what you might call PvP light players. those that would indulge in pvp from time to time but want it to be more sturctured.
It is my opinion that any game with frag fest pvp will not attract this kind of player and will not attract enough of a player base to be successful no mater how good that game might be in other respects.
Though I consider myself a PVPer I do like to take a break from it from time to time and would like to see a good pvp game with a mix of other activites also.
I may have to start another tead detailing my ideas for an entire game world to make my reasoning clearer.
AMD Phenum II x4 3.6Ghz 975 black edition
8 gig Ram
Nvidia GeForce GTX 760
Maybe some PvE players do, but that is not my reason why I do not like to PvP. I will "attempt" to explain how I see this question of "what's the difference between a NPC and a Player."....
Am I your real life enemy? Are you mine? You sit at your computer and I sit at mine, but a NPC sits nowhere... it is just electrons and pixels. it feels nothing.
But I feel. You feel.
"Thou shalt not kill"; "Thou shalt not steal"
These "idesa" maks a difference since many of our Laws are ultimately based upon these ideas and the others that go with them whether we agree with them or not. They permeate everywhere to one degree or another.
"Oh but wait!" You say... the characters are only Pixels, who cares? The Players care and other Players care. How do I know?
Here's how I know: You character is just pixels, but it represents YOU. My character represents ME. This matters to Griefers.... For Griefers "Use" this idea in their tactics, they rely on it to a degree to cause the effect they seek. You are playing your MMO and wham! a Greifer steals your kill or sneaks up in stealth while you are PvE Hunting and flags you for PvP, which the Greifer takes complete advantage of and makes you take a dirt nap. Sound familiar?
Without the ideas of good and evil and the old laws many of the tactics of the Griefers simply wouldn't get the response they do. It's not just about how it makes the Victim(s)(Player) feel... it's about whether the action was "perceived" as good or bad, right or wrong by the victim and others that know the victim of the Griefing. Sure the victim would still be as mad if no one else cared, but the victim's friends find out and then the witch hunt for the griefer begins... and the Griefers run and grab popcorn for the show. Deny to me this is not what happens sometimes? Deny to me that the Greifers haven't had a load of laughs with these sorts of events and situations?
Griefers know there is a big difference between a NPC and a Player character. They PLAY their game for that difference.
There has always been a difference between a NPC and a real Player and there always will be a difference. Real Players, and their characters, matter. Your character may not be You, but it represents you. It matters.
Simple problems with easy solutions:
Q: What if you accidentally attack someone?
A: Have a grace period of about one minute. If in that minute you attack that person again, IE strike them, you get flagged attackable by everyone.
Q: What if someone is griefing you (eg healing what you're fighting)?
A: If someone is healing what you are fighting, then they would be flagged attackable for healing what you are fighting, such as a monster or NPC.
Q: What if you buff someone who is PKing but you didn't realise?
A: Then youre an idiot for not paying attention and get what you deserve for your stupidity. Learn to pay attention and this wont happen, a-DUR.
Q: What if you defend someone being attacked and you end up being the one marked as a PKer because you are higher level?
A: Level shouldnt matter. Alignment/Faction/Justice systems should prevent this. If the person doing the attacking of the victim is flagged as a "criminal/evil" then you wouldnt take a penalty for stopping them from killing an innocent.
See, simple solutions to simple problems. Why game developers cant think of these is... well... kinda dumb and disheartening for those of us who are dying to have an open PvP game.
Why did they have to make Trammel? Why? *hangs head in sadness*
Games are better if they are policed by players rather than by some artificial criminal flag. If you are going to have some sort of criminal system like this you need to have full or at least partial looting. Otherwise there won't be any pvp at all since you get punished for winning, which doesn't sit well with hardcore pvpers.
Are you a Pavlovian Fish Biscuit Addict? Get Help Now!
I will play no more MMORPGs until somethign good comes out!
Full loot on criminals for sure. less loot on lawfull players be they good or evil faction.
keep in mind good, evil are factions not to be confused with criminal(aka greifer). It is perfectly reasonable to have a lawful evil "faction" they get greifed just like the good lawfull players.
AMD Phenum II x4 3.6Ghz 975 black edition
8 gig Ram
Nvidia GeForce GTX 760
ganking and griefing are 2 different things
Players always have the option of fight or flight... that's not going anywhere. The whole point of open PvP is to make the game feel less restrictive and give players more options. Not everyone wants to have to queue into a PvP instance just for the sake of fighting players over trivial nonsense that arguably has little to no significant impact on the game itself. PvP takes a backseat to many games that center the majority of their content to PvE. There is nothing wrong with ensuring there is give and take in all things players have access to.. that's the epitomy of balance.
I don't think it's a good idea or makes any real sense to allow a level 1 player to hold his own against a level 58.. Where players don't have the opportunity to adequately defend themselves against griefing.. that's where a punishment system comes in.
Griefing is not PvP.. mechanics set to contend griefing that also devalue PvP as a whole are simply badly implemented mechanics. Worthwhile systems won't deter PvPers who aren't griefers because these systems won't be hampering their performance/experience.