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PvP at what cost

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Comments

  • karmathkarmath Posts: 829Member Uncommon

    Dont like PvP? Dont play on a PvP server or play a PvP centric game. There is MORE PvE focused games than you can poke a stick at and only a handfull of PvP focused games.

    Also, stop keyboard turning.

  • MacroHardMacroHard Fairfax, VAPosts: 104Member

    Originally posted by Volkon

    I like how GW2 is going to handle it... all the open world PvP will take place in the Mists, essentially a zone dedicated to 2 week long server vs server vs server battles where anything goes. In the PvE world of your server there will be no ability to attack anyone... you're all on the same side against the Elder Dragons and their minions after all. Hell, they're making it damn near impossible to grief at all in the PvE world.

     

    So you want to enjoy PvE, stick to your server and have at it. You  want to PK others? Go to the Mists and best of luck to you. Everyone else there (from the other servers) will be looking for you too.

    This system of zoned combat preference is nothing new.  Although it arguably works, it of course greatly limits location where free-range PvP can take place.  On the upside though, you explaining the justification as to how it works makes a lot of sense and I would say the "implementation" aspect sounds like it's being done correctly (immersionally speaking).

  • MacroHardMacroHard Fairfax, VAPosts: 104Member

    Originally posted by karmath

    Dont like PvP? Dont play on a PvP server or play a PvP centric game. There is MORE PvE focused games than you can poke a stick at and only a handfull of PvP focused games.

    Also, stop keyboard turning.

    servers based on combat preference is an immersion breaker and the industry needs to get past such garbage so players of all types and preferences can enjoy a single game atmosphere.. one that doesn't have to be artificially split up.  That's my goal, anyways.

  • FrostWyrmFrostWyrm Tempe, AZPosts: 1,036Member

    Originally posted by Palladin

    Originally posted by st4t1ck


    Originally posted by maplestone

    The eternal question: if you need to create so many rules to discourage PKing, why are you allowing it in the first place?

    This.     If your gonna add so many rules aginst killing other players why not make a game like ffxi where there is no pvp at all.

    accept Brenner which is an arena no one goes in

    The idea is to merge PVP with PVE so that the two game styles can coexist and increase the number of people in the game world. It has been proven many times now that mindless pvp worlds do not draw enough of a player base.

    This is exactly what the industry does NOT need more of, devs trying to please everyone at the same time. Trying to merge conflicting interests only creates problems for both sides, then no one is happy.

  • TruthXHurtsTruthXHurts El Do, KSPosts: 1,555Member

    Originally posted by MacroHard

    Originally posted by karmath

    Dont like PvP? Dont play on a PvP server or play a PvP centric game. There is MORE PvE focused games than you can poke a stick at and only a handfull of PvP focused games.

    Also, stop keyboard turning.

    servers based on combat preference is an immersion breaker and the industry needs to get past such garbage so players of all types and preferences can enjoy a single game atmosphere.. one that doesn't have to be artificially split up.  That's my goal, anyways.

    I honestly don't want to play with the carebears. As much as some people love to have them whine in their tell window for 45 minutes after killing them I am not one of those people. I want ot play a Full PVP game that everyone in it understands what the repercussions of full pvp actually are.

     

    "I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"

  • Loke666Loke666 MalmöPosts: 18,001Member Uncommon

    It wont really work, a ganker will gank no matter what the punishment.

    What do work pretty fine is a lot less gap between noobs and leveled up players, and less impact on gear. That turns of the cowardly noob killer at least (or makes him work in groups) since those usually suck so bad that they only attack people they can´t loose against.

    The good PvPers on the other hand is impossible to avoid unless you play on a PvE server.

    Lineage had the idea that you could PvP flag enemy guilds by declaring war if their prince accepted on PvE servers, that worked fine there but it is really only an option to add a little open PvP on a PvE server.

    Let´s face it, if someone can gank you someone will, so you either needs plenty of actual restrictions to stop it (like must flag for PvP or PvP in seperate areas of the game like GW2s the mists).

  • TruthXHurtsTruthXHurts El Do, KSPosts: 1,555Member

    I agree too much gap between endgame players and noobs is bad for a FFA PVP game. It should be almost entirely based on skill. It's even flooded over inot the FPS genre now. High level players take entire clips to the face adn low levle players die in one shot. It has to end. I know that the average player of today is no tmuch better than a monkey pressing buttons, but I hope that we can turn the current trend and actually introduce skill back into gaming.

    "I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"

  • HikaruuHikaruu clarksville, TNPosts: 101Member
    Off topic for a minute.. Can no one online spell lose?

    image
  • sanshi44sanshi44 BrisbanePosts: 1,088Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Hluill

    One of the problems with PvP is game design itself: Levels, Hitpoints, Gear.

    The lowbie doesn't stand a chance against the even a mediocre PK.

    Until, games enable anybody to kill anybody, no matter the level or gear disparity, PvP will always be an immature joke.

     

    In Everquest 1 you could only kill people within 5 lvl of eachother if i remember correctly, worked reasonably well.

  • TruthXHurtsTruthXHurts El Do, KSPosts: 1,555Member

    Originally posted by sanshi44

    Originally posted by Hluill

    One of the problems with PvP is game design itself: Levels, Hitpoints, Gear.

    The lowbie doesn't stand a chance against the even a mediocre PK.

    Until, games enable anybody to kill anybody, no matter the level or gear disparity, PvP will always be an immature joke.

     

    In Everquest 1 you could only kill people within 5 lvl of eachother if i remember correctly, worked reasonably well.

    There were different pvp rulesets on different servers, but what made pvp terible for lowbies in EQ was the de-levelers. Who could backstab a noob for hundreds. I don't think a new player should ever be abel to defeat a vet in combat 1v1, btu I do believe that they should be able to get closer than they can now, and that 3 or 4 new players should be enough to handle a vet if they have any skill.

    "I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"

  • HluillHluill Lovingston, VAPosts: 105Member Uncommon



    Originally posted by MacroHard


    Originally posted by Hluill

    One of the problems with PvP is game design itself: Levels, Hitpoints, Gear.
    The lowbie doesn't stand a chance against the even a mediocre PK.
    Until, games enable anybody to kill anybody, no matter the level or gear disparity, PvP will always be an immature joke.
     

    that's why we are talking about different solutions to deter griefing.  As long as you're here, read a post or two.  Might learn something.

    ~laughs~ Do you dismiss my point so easily? One of the ways to address the issue is to lessen the disparity created by levels, skills and gear. If lowbies were able to defend themselves against griefers, then griefers wouldn't be able to function..

    Hluill, a barbarian rogue, and his Warrior-daughter, Leyek
    Playing/Subscribing: TSW, LotRO, EQ2, and SWTOR
    Played: GW2, V:SoH, Neverwinter, ArchAge, EQ, UO, DAoC, WAR, DDO, AoC, MO

  • CalfisCalfis Brooklyn, NYPosts: 352Member

    Originally posted by Palladin

    I am not hostile toward PvPers at all ...I consider myself a PvPer. But I only fight against people who have a chance or who deserve a good smack down.

    I am however hostile against anyone who goes out and hunts for players to kill who have no chance who are 10+ levels lower or will go to a newb area and gank people for hours simply because he thinks its fun. In games past I have always formed possies to hunt those people untill they get pissed and log. I guess you might call me the ganker of the gankers and i will spend days herasing people like that. :)

    What would you consider "roaming"? A lot of nullsec alliances simply roam around in small to medium sized groups looking for fights or people to gank. On their way to that finding that "fair" fight they may have ganked half a dozen random people. Many of them probably at the wrong place at the wrong time or too slow/stupid to "get out of the way".

     

    Also are you NRDS coalition? CVA? Yulai Federation?

    image

  • HluillHluill Lovingston, VAPosts: 105Member Uncommon



    Originally posted by sanshi44


    Originally posted by Hluill

    One of the problems with PvP is game design itself: Levels, Hitpoints, Gear.
    The lowbie doesn't stand a chance against the even a mediocre PK.
    Until, games enable anybody to kill anybody, no matter the level or gear disparity, PvP will always be an immature joke.
     

    In Everquest 1 you could only kill people within 5 lvl of eachother if i remember correctly, worked reasonably well.
     

    I remember that as well. I also remember being repeatedly "Blindsided" (my screen, UI included, going completely black) by a griefer. At first I thought my computer was malfunctioning. Scrolling through text later, I discovered that was some kind of special ability.

    My memories of various PvP games include only a handful of cool fights, which I lost. These memories are dominated by getting killed at spawn and respawn points, getting killed while locked in quest dialogues or just getting owned by guys with better toons.

    That being said, I did have some fun with Warhammer, in the Battlegrounds and Scenerios. But that wasn't full PvP.

    Hluill, a barbarian rogue, and his Warrior-daughter, Leyek
    Playing/Subscribing: TSW, LotRO, EQ2, and SWTOR
    Played: GW2, V:SoH, Neverwinter, ArchAge, EQ, UO, DAoC, WAR, DDO, AoC, MO

  • MuntzMuntz Minneapolis, MNPosts: 332Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Palladin

    Originally posted by st4t1ck


    Originally posted by maplestone

    The eternal question: if you need to create so many rules to discourage PKing, why are you allowing it in the first place?

    This.     If your gonna add so many rules aginst killing other players why not make a game like ffxi where there is no pvp at all.

    accept Brenner which is an arena no one goes in

    The idea is to merge PVP with PVE so that the two game styles can coexist and increase the number of people in the game world. It has been proven many times now that mindless pvp worlds do not draw enough of a player base.

    Why do the numbers in the game world need to be increased? To what end? 

  • HluillHluill Lovingston, VAPosts: 105Member Uncommon



    Originally posted by Hluill
     




    Originally posted by MacroHard




    Originally posted by Hluill

    One of the problems with PvP is game design itself: Levels, Hitpoints, Gear.
    The lowbie doesn't stand a chance against the even a mediocre PK.
    Until, games enable anybody to kill anybody, no matter the level or gear disparity, PvP will always be an immature joke.
     




    that's why we are talking about different solutions to deter griefing.  As long as you're here, read a post or two.  Might learn something.


     
    ~laughs~ Do you dismiss my point so easily? One of the ways to address the issue is to lessen the disparity created by levels, skills and gear. If lowbies were able to defend themselves against griefers, then griefers wouldn't be able to function..

    I just got back from taking the dog for a run , so I've given my reply even further thought.

    We can talk about punish griefers, just like we talk about punishing rapists and robbers, but that only arguably lessens the crime rate. I want to empower the would-be victims. Give them choices that work, like being able to run away, to defend themselves or to avoid it altogether. Many of us play these games to be heroes, not victims.

    Hluill, a barbarian rogue, and his Warrior-daughter, Leyek
    Playing/Subscribing: TSW, LotRO, EQ2, and SWTOR
    Played: GW2, V:SoH, Neverwinter, ArchAge, EQ, UO, DAoC, WAR, DDO, AoC, MO

  • JohnnyBravolJohnnyBravol Toronto, ONPosts: 83Member

    They should just have a game where all you do is pk and there are no quests or anything you just pk all day. And then you pk so much that your eyes bleed and you have to take a break from pking. Then you pk some more until you die. They should call it, ironically, Death From Pking So Hard. Plus there are cool mounts. I must develop this game immediately.

  • MuntzMuntz Minneapolis, MNPosts: 332Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by JohnnyBravol

    They should just have a game where all you do is pk and there are no quests or anything you just pk all day. And then you pk so much that your eyes bleed and you have to take a break from pking. Then you pk some more until you die. They should call it, ironically, Death From Pking So Hard. Plus there are cool mounts. I must develop this game immediately.

    Not a bad idea. If I may make a suggestion. Why not flood the zone with low level ai controlled npc. No one needs to know they are npcs.  The ai will whine to the pker when it gets killed. After re-spawn it will mindlessly go back to where the death happened. Each computer controller victim could have a persnoallity module to allow for variablity in response such as anger, barganing, ... 

    I think you'll want to add housing, got to have an in game house. 

  • TruthXHurtsTruthXHurts El Do, KSPosts: 1,555Member

    Originally posted by Muntz

    Originally posted by JohnnyBravol

    They should just have a game where all you do is pk and there are no quests or anything you just pk all day. And then you pk so much that your eyes bleed and you have to take a break from pking. Then you pk some more until you die. They should call it, ironically, Death From Pking So Hard. Plus there are cool mounts. I must develop this game immediately.

    Not a bad idea. If I may make a suggestion. Why not flood the zone with low level ai controlled npc. No one needs to know they are npcs.  The ai will whine to the pker when it gets killed. After re-spawn it will mindlessly go back to where the death happened. Each computer controller victim could have a persnoallity module to allow for variablity in response such as anger, barganing, ... 

    I think you'll want to add housing, got to have an in game house. 

    I like it... Can we make it one hit kills from backstabbing?

    "I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"

  • MaelwyddMaelwydd CrawleyPosts: 1,123Member

    I once suggested, in an effort to empower those that don't want to PvP but do want to have no restrictions, that a player could own land, decide the laws that govern their land and build a punishment system.

    All these things are tools for a player.

    A tool to 'own' land and mark it as owned.

    A tool to 'Legislate' owned land to govern what can or cannot be done within it's borders.

    A tool to allow 'Punishment' for those that break the laws of the land.

    For example: -

    Player A is the cowardly Pv'er, Player B the heroic ganker.

    If player A wanders outside his own 'owned' lands he is subject to either no laws at all or if he wanders into the land of player B, the laws of player B. Player B, being the maverick ganker type doesn't have any rules though so Player A upon leaving his own lands is totally open to attack without retribution.

    If player B wanders outside his own 'owned' lands he is subject to either no laws at all or if he wanders into the land of player A, the laws of player A. Player A, being the Scared noob that he is craves a safe environment so his laws are No stealing, no attacking, no killing. The punishment for each of these crimes is 1 hour, 2 hours, 3 hours in jail respectivly.

    Now while Player A is not TOTALLY safe anywhere. On his own land he at least knows that should his rules be broken the ganker must spend in game time in jail.

    The main objection was towards jail time. No one wants to spend time in jail. My argument was don't kill somone on their land though. I personally don't have problems with this idea and to be honest, think only those not really interested in FFA PvP for the excitement or RP value but simply for pissing others off are the ones that dislike punishment.

  • PalladinPalladin Atlanta, GAPosts: 426Member

    My original plan was to open this "discussion" let you all poke wholes in the ideas then let you figure out ways to fix what ever YOU say will not work. If you  have spent the time to find an issue you surely have spend time thinking about how to solve it. So far I have seen some pretty good ideas.

    My idea is not to limit PVP but to make a system that makes life very hard for greifers. WE all know what greifing is we've all been on the receiving end and it's never fun.  Keep the ideas flowing

     

    AMD Phenum II x4 3.6Ghz 975 black edition
    8 gig Ram
    Radeon 4870

  • PalladinPalladin Atlanta, GAPosts: 426Member

    Originally posted by mmoDAD

    This is a great post, OP!

    There is nothing better than having the freedom to infiltrate the opposing faction's main city etc via World PvP. The freedom to do so is intoxicating. However, I agree that harsh sanctions are a must, as relentless griefing is what gives World PvP its bad name. In fact, I would go as far as flagging griefers to the point where they would drop all of their gear upon death.

    total gear drop for a greifer. I like this idea.

    AMD Phenum II x4 3.6Ghz 975 black edition
    8 gig Ram
    Radeon 4870

  • PalladinPalladin Atlanta, GAPosts: 426Member

    Originally posted by sanshi44

    Originally posted by Hluill

    One of the problems with PvP is game design itself: Levels, Hitpoints, Gear.

    The lowbie doesn't stand a chance against the even a mediocre PK.

    Until, games enable anybody to kill anybody, no matter the level or gear disparity, PvP will always be an immature joke.

     

    In Everquest 1 you could only kill people within 5 lvl of eachother if i remember correctly, worked reasonably well.

    EQ 1 had horrible PVP. I played on the Vallon Zek pvp server for 18 months before i quite the game.  Most any game that includes lvl in combat calculations will probably suck.

    AMD Phenum II x4 3.6Ghz 975 black edition
    8 gig Ram
    Radeon 4870

  • st4t1ckst4t1ck jonesboro, GAPosts: 600Member Uncommon

    Im all for limiting griefers, maybe by not being able to engage somebody a certain amout of levels below you unless he attacks first. but to penalize someone for using mechanics that are in the game seems a bit over the top for me.  again if there's something you feel the need to penalize for then dont code it in your game, when you start taking away from one style of gameplay (pvp) your gonna lose that crowd.

    Why people want to merge the two is beyond me. Do it like gw2, or split the servers between pvp and pve, and if you roll on a pvp server suck it up. i never see pvp'ers rolling on pve servers and then crying to the devs about it

  • TruthXHurtsTruthXHurts El Do, KSPosts: 1,555Member

    Originally posted by Palladin

    Originally posted by mmoDAD

    This is a great post, OP!

    There is nothing better than having the freedom to infiltrate the opposing faction's main city etc via World PvP. The freedom to do so is intoxicating. However, I agree that harsh sanctions are a must, as relentless griefing is what gives World PvP its bad name. In fact, I would go as far as flagging griefers to the point where they would drop all of their gear upon death.

    total gear drop for a greifer. I like this idea.

    Problem is then you just get hordes of naked griefers. You really need some sort of penalty that takes their time. Like a prison system, or permadeath for relaly bad PK.

     

    If this sounds like penalizing them it's not it's just the time they have cost other players coming full circle.

    "I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"

  • PalladinPalladin Atlanta, GAPosts: 426Member

    Originally posted by Muntz

    Originally posted by Palladin


    Originally posted by st4t1ck


    Originally posted by maplestone

    The eternal question: if you need to create so many rules to discourage PKing, why are you allowing it in the first place?

    This.     If your gonna add so many rules aginst killing other players why not make a game like ffxi where there is no pvp at all.

    accept Brenner which is an arena no one goes in

    The idea is to merge PVP with PVE so that the two game styles can coexist and increase the number of people in the game world. It has been proven many times now that mindless pvp worlds do not draw enough of a player base.

    Why do the numbers in the game world need to be increased? To what end? 

    Why would you play an MMO if you want to solo....

    AMD Phenum II x4 3.6Ghz 975 black edition
    8 gig Ram
    Radeon 4870

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