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PvP at what cost

PalladinPalladin Atlanta, GAPosts: 426Member

Much of my ideas on this come from the idea that PvP and PVE can coexist and that to become a mindless PK should be a very deliberat decision.

 

I am of the opinion that mindless PKing should have a sever cost and that this should be coded into the machanics of the game so as to keep the game from being a constant frag fest.

I am of the opinion that if one clan wants to attack another there should be a system in place to make a declaration of hostility which would give the clans involved a "reason" to pvp.

Pkers should be considered outcasts and should lose the right to be in a clan.

Pkers should lose the right to trade in any NPC town.

Lawful players should be allowed the choice to trade or not trade with Pkers.

Trading with a PK should have nagative affects on lawfull players rep.

All lawfull players should be allowed to kill Pkers on sight without affecting their lawfull status but each death suffered by a PK should help to gain a miniscule amout of rep toward becomeing lawfull again with a small max limit per day to be gained in this way(to prevent exploiting)

Pks should have the ability to redeem themselves but it should be monumentally hard, hard enough that it "might" be easier to delete and reroll another toon.

I believe that PvP can be codified in a way that would keep it fun for everyone and make it so that players who like to explore and PvE would coexist with PVPers.

My ideas would hinge on the ability of players to form nations, own lands, place laws within their lands.

Anyone entering a nations lands who is not part of that nation would auto flag open pvp and no penalties would apply. It would be up to the players in the nation to defend their own land.

Herasing a nations players would be part of the open world pvp system and would not be considered greifing.

It is my general idea to make it easier for players to explore the open world without having to deal "too" much with greifing gangs.

 

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Comments

  • RaysheRayshe London, ONPosts: 1,284Member

    PK with consiquenses already exists. Perfect World (the producer not the game) went about it by having any character that PK's regularly unable to unflag. thus they can be attacked by anyone at any time.

     

    Duplex (Face of Mankind) made their game to make PKing cost penalty points which could allow the police faction and arrest said player forcing them into prison for a amount of time reletive to how much PP they have.

    Because i can.
    I'm Hopeful For Every Game, Until the Fan Boys Attack My Games. Then the Knives Come Out.
    Logic every gamers worst enemy.

  • PalladinPalladin Atlanta, GAPosts: 426Member

    Originally posted by LadyNoh

    PK with consiquenses already exists. Perfect World (the producer not the game) went about it by having any character that PK's regularly unable to unflag. thus they can be attacked by anyone at any time.

     

    Duplex (Face of Mankind) made their game to make PKing cost penalty points which could allow the police faction and arrest said player forcing them into prison for a amount of time reletive to how much PP they have.

    Never heard of either game. I will ahve to check them out.

    AMD Phenum II x4 3.6Ghz 975 black edition
    8 gig Ram
    Radeon 4870

  • RaysheRayshe London, ONPosts: 1,284Member

    PWI makes - Perfect World, Forsaken World (these 2 have the PK feature i believe) along with a bunch of new arrivals.

    Because i can.
    I'm Hopeful For Every Game, Until the Fan Boys Attack My Games. Then the Knives Come Out.
    Logic every gamers worst enemy.

  • DecoyTrooperDecoyTrooper Baltimore, MDPosts: 239Member

    I think you can't trade in the cities in Age of Conan once you are flagged as a murderer. But at the end of the day, when you go outside the cities, the PKer will still be a PKer. My opinion is that if someone doesn't like to be ganked, just don't roll in a PvP server.

     

    edit: Also in AoC you can redeem yourself but it's hard to go back to normal.

  • PalladinPalladin Atlanta, GAPosts: 426Member

    Originally posted by DecoyTrooper

    I think you can't trade in the cities in Age of Conan once you are flagged as a murderer. But at the end of the day, when you go outside the cities, the PKer will still be a PKer. My opinion is that if someone doesn't like to be ganked, just don't roll in a PvP server.

    Said like mindless PK

    AMD Phenum II x4 3.6Ghz 975 black edition
    8 gig Ram
    Radeon 4870

  • MacroHardMacroHard Fairfax, VAPosts: 104Member

    here's a scenario for ya:



    1. griefer spends an hour in a lower level zone wrecklessly killing everyone he sees.  No one even near his level seems to be notified.  Life is very entertaining!


    2. a couple hours pass and griefer gets a guild notification that the guild's town is under attack by military units from NPC towns that share factions with all those low levels.


    3. Town has been faced with multiple waves of military units for the past few hours (IRL).  The guild mates who were logged on had to spend time defending the town instead of doing what they originally logged on to do.


    4. griefer is flamed and kicked from guild


    5. griefer laughs and continues killing low levels.


    6. NPCs find griefer and hunt him down for his bounty. 


    7. NPCs loot some gold off of griefer's corpse


    8. NPCs are seen talking and laughing over their catch as they head back to the town they came from to claim their rewards.


    9. Griefer finds he can't res for an unusually long period of time and coincides with how much griefing he did.


    This list could keep going but I think this would be sufficient to get the point across that the world frowns upon the behavior and in the end just ended up costing the griefer lots of needlessly wasted time, a bit of money, and a guild.  Worth it?

  • rounnerrounner CanberraPosts: 602Member Uncommon

    What if you accidently attack someone?

    What if someone is griefing you (eg healing what you're fighting)?

    What if you buff someone who is PKing but you didn't realise?

    What if you defend someone being attacked and you end up being the one marked as a PKer because you are higher level?

  • PalladinPalladin Atlanta, GAPosts: 426Member

    Originally posted by rounner

    What if you accidently attack someone?

    What if someone is griefing you (eg healing what you're fighting)?

    What if you buff someone who is PKing but you didn't realise?

    What if you defend someone being attacked and you end up being the one marked as a PKer because you are higher level?

    what if...you put a though as to how to resolve your points.

    AMD Phenum II x4 3.6Ghz 975 black edition
    8 gig Ram
    Radeon 4870

  • maplestonemaplestone Ottawa, ONPosts: 3,099Member

    The eternal question: if you need to create so many rules to discourage PKing, why are you allowing it in the first place?

  • st4t1ckst4t1ck jonesboro, GAPosts: 600Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by maplestone

    The eternal question: if you need to create so many rules to discourage PKing, why are you allowing it in the first place?

    This.     If your gonna add so many rules aginst killing other players why not make a game like ffxi where there is no pvp at all.

    accept Brenner which is an arena no one goes in

  • AxehiltAxehilt San Francisco, CAPosts: 8,696Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by LadyNoh

    PK with consiquenses already exists. Perfect World (the producer not the game) went about it by having any character that PK's regularly unable to unflag. thus they can be attacked by anyone at any time.

     

    Duplex (Face of Mankind) made their game to make PKing cost penalty points which could allow the police faction and arrest said player forcing them into prison for a amount of time reletive to how much PP they have.

    The second one definitely sounds like a real deterrant (my personal thoughts on FoM's ultra-dull gameplay aside), but the first one doesn't really sound like it's anything beyond a perma-flag, which isn't much of a deterrant at all.

    "Joe stated his case logically and passionately, but his perceived effeminate voice only drew big gales of stupid laughter..." -Idiocracy
    "There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates

  • PalladinPalladin Atlanta, GAPosts: 426Member

    Originally posted by st4t1ck

    Originally posted by maplestone

    The eternal question: if you need to create so many rules to discourage PKing, why are you allowing it in the first place?

    This.     If your gonna add so many rules aginst killing other players why not make a game like ffxi where there is no pvp at all.

    accept Brenner which is an arena no one goes in

    The idea is to merge PVP with PVE so that the two game styles can coexist and increase the number of people in the game world. It has been proven many times now that mindless pvp worlds do not draw enough of a player base.

    AMD Phenum II x4 3.6Ghz 975 black edition
    8 gig Ram
    Radeon 4870

  • st4t1ckst4t1ck jonesboro, GAPosts: 600Member Uncommon

    If "mindless" pvp doesnt work, Pve'ers quiting. what do you think will happen when you start penalizing pvp.  Pvp'ers quit.  I dont get why its that hard,  have pvp and pve servers as they do now,  but make pvp servers actually pvp not pvp lite.  Open world pvp, which is what pvpers want will not draw the mass crowd of pve'ers

  • emikochanemikochan StaffordPosts: 284Member

    In EVE there is the simple security status system. Gank enough people and you will be kill on sight in high security areas and chased by the local police.

    Only way to get your sec back is to grind boring pve - sounds like a criminal sentence to me.

     

    Do you really need more than that ? There's not need to be so hostile OP, if you put so many limits on pvp, you may as well remove it. There are many pve only games that do very well, and you can't get someone that doesn't want to pvp to pvp.

    Combining the two populations forcefully never works very well. Like there were rumours of the good missions being moved to pvp space in eve, but that wouldn't lead to pvers going to pvp, it would lead to them not doing the missions. 

    image

  • MacroHardMacroHard Fairfax, VAPosts: 104Member

    Originally posted by st4t1ck

    If "mindless" pvp doesnt work, Pve'ers quiting. what do you think will happen when you start penalizing pvp.  Pvp'ers quit.  I dont get why its that hard,  have pvp and pve servers as they do now,  but make pvp servers actually pvp not pvp lite.  Open world pvp, which is what pvpers want will not draw the mass crowd of pve'ers

    Griefing is a class of PvP, one that should be deterred naturally using ingame mechanics.

  • PalladinPalladin Atlanta, GAPosts: 426Member

    Eve has the best mix of PvP and PvE i've ever seen. I spent most of my time in Eve in 0 sec and yes I am looking for an MMOrpg with those machanics.

     

    I am not hostile toward PvPers at all ...I consider myself a PvPer. But I only fight against people who have a chance or who deserve a good smack down.

    I am however hostile against anyone who goes out and hunts for players to kill who have no chance who are 10+ levels lower or will go to a newb area and gank people for hours simply because he thinks its fun. In games past I have always formed possies to hunt those people untill they get pissed and log. I guess you might call me the ganker of the gankers and i will spend days herasing people like that. :)

    But yes Eve has the best high sec low sec machanic i've ever seeen and for the most part it works.

    I would like to see games that do a better job of mixing pvp with pve. A system that has harsh penalties for being a dick. Noone wants to play games where they have to put  up with such things. Bullying people in a game is just as bad as doing it in the real world.

    AMD Phenum II x4 3.6Ghz 975 black edition
    8 gig Ram
    Radeon 4870

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common

    What is there to stop clans from declaring war against everyone? And is there a way to prevent clan-hopping? And are all these restrictions really worth it? The more complicated the system gets, the more chance there is for exploits.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common

    Originally posted by MacroHard

    here's a scenario for ya:



    1. griefer spends an hour in a lower level zone wrecklessly killing everyone he sees.  No one even near his level seems to be notified.  Life is very entertaining!


    2. a couple hours pass and griefer gets a guild notification that the guild's town is under attack by military units from NPC towns that share factions with all those low levels.


    3. Town has been faced with multiple waves of military units for the past few hours (IRL).  The guild mates who were logged on had to spend time defending the town instead of doing what they originally logged on to do.


    4. griefer is flamed and kicked from guild


    5. griefer laughs and continues killing low levels.


    6. NPCs find griefer and hunt him down for his bounty. 


    7. NPCs loot some gold off of griefer's corpse


    8. NPCs are seen talking and laughing over their catch as they head back to the town they came from to claim their rewards.


    9. Griefer finds he can't res for an unusually long period of time and coincides with how much griefing he did.


    This list could keep going but I think this would be sufficient to get the point across that the world frowns upon the behavior and in the end just ended up costing the griefer lots of needlessly wasted time, a bit of money, and a guild.  Worth it?

    You attract NPCs you have permission to kill? Grind, grind, grind away those NPCs!

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    Copy eve or copy daoc - simple
  • DauzqulDauzqul Detroit, MIPosts: 1,401Member Uncommon

    This is a great post, OP!

    There is nothing better than having the freedom to infiltrate the opposing faction's main city etc via World PvP. The freedom to do so is intoxicating. However, I agree that harsh sanctions are a must, as relentless griefing is what gives World PvP its bad name. In fact, I would go as far as flagging griefers to the point where they would drop all of their gear upon death.

  • MacroHardMacroHard Fairfax, VAPosts: 104Member

    Originally posted by Quirhid

    Originally posted by MacroHard

    here's a scenario for ya:



    1. griefer spends an hour in a lower level zone wrecklessly killing everyone he sees.  No one even near his level seems to be notified.  Life is very entertaining!


    2. a couple hours pass and griefer gets a guild notification that the guild's town is under attack by military units from NPC towns that share factions with all those low levels.


    3. Town has been faced with multiple waves of military units for the past few hours (IRL).  The guild mates who were logged on had to spend time defending the town instead of doing what they originally logged on to do.


    4. griefer is flamed and kicked from guild


    5. griefer laughs and continues killing low levels.


    6. NPCs find griefer and hunt him down for his bounty. 


    7. NPCs loot some gold off of griefer's corpse


    8. NPCs are seen talking and laughing over their catch as they head back to the town they came from to claim their rewards.


    9. Griefer finds he can't res for an unusually long period of time and coincides with how much griefing he did.


    This list could keep going but I think this would be sufficient to get the point across that the world frowns upon the behavior and in the end just ended up costing the griefer lots of needlessly wasted time, a bit of money, and a guild.  Worth it?

    You attract NPCs you have permission to kill? Grind, grind, grind away those NPCs!



    lol... no.  No experience or benefit is gained by being under siege from military NPCs attacking your guild.  If you ignore them, no more guild town.

  • HluillHluill Lovingston, VAPosts: 105Member Uncommon

    One of the problems with PvP is game design itself: Levels, Hitpoints, Gear.

    The lowbie doesn't stand a chance against the even a mediocre PK.

    Until, games enable anybody to kill anybody, no matter the level or gear disparity, PvP will always be an immature joke.

     

    Hluill, a barbarian rogue, and his Warrior-daughter, Leyek
    Playing/Subscribing: TSW, LotRO, EQ2, and SWTOR
    Played: GW2, V:SoH, Neverwinter, ArchAge, EQ, UO, DAoC, WAR, DDO, AoC, MO

  • MacroHardMacroHard Fairfax, VAPosts: 104Member

    Originally posted by Quirhid

    What is there to stop clans from declaring war against everyone? And is there a way to prevent clan-hopping? And are all these restrictions really worth it? The more complicated the system gets, the more chance there is for exploits.

    Same can be said on the other side: more opportunity for a more effective system through complexity.  As for exploits.. that's the whole point of testing a game before relase..

  • MacroHardMacroHard Fairfax, VAPosts: 104Member

    Originally posted by Hluill

    One of the problems with PvP is game design itself: Levels, Hitpoints, Gear.

    The lowbie doesn't stand a chance against the even a mediocre PK.

    Until, games enable anybody to kill anybody, no matter the level or gear disparity, PvP will always be an immature joke.

     

    that's why we are talking about different solutions to deter griefing.  As long as you're here, read a post or two.  Might learn something.

  • VolkonVolkon Sterling, VAPosts: 3,788Member

    I like how GW2 is going to handle it... all the open world PvP will take place in the Mists, essentially a zone dedicated to 2 week long server vs server vs server battles where anything goes. In the PvE world of your server there will be no ability to attack anyone... you're all on the same side against the Elder Dragons and their minions after all. Hell, they're making it damn near impossible to grief at all in the PvE world.

     

    So you want to enjoy PvE, stick to your server and have at it. You  want to PK others? Go to the Mists and best of luck to you. Everyone else there (from the other servers) will be looking for you too.

    Oderint, dum metuant.
    image

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