I mean seriously? So you admit that you don't care if they are born that way? That is rather narrowminded of you, I sincerely hope you reconsider these beliefs... people can't help how they were born or who they are, you should accept everyone for who they are and let them live their lives freely. Saying "don't be gay around me" is like saying "don't be a woman around me" or "don't be tall around me" it makes no sense and its rude.
Of course, he sees he is losing and decides to retreat.
He seems like a nice bloke he just doesn't quite get that everyone is enitled to the same basic human rights, and that we all shouldn't rest until everyone is as free as the next person.
Of course, he sees he is losing and decides to retreat.
He seems like a nice bloke he just doesn't quite get that everyone is enitled to the same basic human rights, and that we all shouldn't rest until everyone is as free as the next person.
Agreed, I think I'll use your method of replacing "gay" with "woman" next time someone uses the "don't shove it down my throat" agrument. Its quite effective.
Of course, he sees he is losing and decides to retreat.
He seems like a nice bloke he just doesn't quite get that everyone is enitled to the same basic human rights, and that we all shouldn't rest until everyone is as free as the next person.
Agreed, I think I'll use your method of replacing "gay" with "woman" next time someone uses the "don't shove it down my throat" agrument. Its quite effective.
Everyone has a mother :-) lets hope they all love theirs hehe.
Of course, he sees he is losing and decides to retreat.
He seems like a nice bloke he just doesn't quite get that everyone is enitled to the same basic human rights, and that we all shouldn't rest until everyone is as free as the next person.
In the end it seems he simply wanted his opinion voiced and heard. It's reasonable.
On the other hand, where i live it's all confusing.
One guy i know was married, then left her after realising he was gay, going to work at a hairdressers (a bit cliche)
However, the strangest is this one (very):
The local pub landlord is gay, but used to be married to a woman (Woman A) years ago. This woman (A) then went on to become lesbian herself with another woman (B). Now this woman (A)is with a divorced guy with 4 kids, who all goto the same pub as the gay landlord. AND her ex girlfriend (Woman is now seeing a woman (C) who used to be married to a guy and has 4 kids herself.
All in the same town.
In summary, i think everyone is a little bit curious inside...or so it seems lol.
Im however happy to include anyone that is not an unethical scumbag, no matter if i care to hear about his latest romp around gayville in gaytown at the gaybar of rainbow ponies.
And suddenly the article seems to have been a bad idea, isn't it Mr. Barreiro.
Not necessarily a bad idea, but I can see the direction isn't going where I'd hope it would.
I stand by what I say though, when I talk about making game worlds safe for everyone to play in, where no one, for whatever reason, is treated like badly or like a second class citizen.
For instance, I welcome anyone with an opinion to post their opinion here, and I will rethink my ideas if there are valid issues that can change my opinion on a given point. That said, if people commenting here wish to be hostile or mean spirited, people will probably react accordingly.
That said, I'm all for fart jokes and memes and whatnot... but again, I prefer not to be mean to other people on principle, and the DA piece for today was a reflection on what we can do to make our game worlds a more prosperous place.
A writer and gamer from the Philippines. Loves his mom dearly.
Isn't the act of telling someone else that they are wrong in their intolerance and should be tolerant of all people somewhat intolerant in itself? It seems that telling someone they are doing it wrong means you are not tolerating their chosen lifestyle. Maybe they were brought up that way and don't know differently. Is it still "their fault" they feel the way they do? Can you really expect them to set aside everything they have been exposed to in life to this point and see the "correct" way of things? Isn't that you being intolerant of what life has provided that person?
Tolerance is a slippery slope. No, I don't think people should be tolerant of everything and everyone. If someone annoys me, I tell them so. If someone is rude to me, I call them on it. Being "tolerant" isn't necessarily "better".
It's tug of war, the very things that make one group angry makes another feel at peace, thus we have exclusion, I don't think its a problem just keep searching for a group that fits your ideals.
And suddenly the article seems to have been a bad idea, isn't it Mr. Barreiro.
Not necessarily a bad idea, but I can see the direction isn't going where I'd hope it would.
I stand by what I say though, when I talk about making game worlds safe for everyone to play in, where no one, for whatever reason, is treated like badly or like a second class citizen.
For instance, I welcome anyone with an opinion to post their opinion here, and I will rethink my ideas if there are valid issues that can change my opinion on a given point. That said, if people commenting here wish to be hostile or mean spirited, people will probably react accordingly.
That said, I'm all for fart jokes and memes and whatnot... but again, I prefer not to be mean to other people on principle, and the DA piece for today was a reflection on what we can do to make our game worlds a more prosperous place.
Seems the community is not ready for that.
How could they, if developers themselves are not ready for it.
The comments in this article don't look too bad now, but at release, before the sanitation by mods, we had around 500 replies of the same nature as the first comment in this thread.
Bare in mind Gamasutra is almost exclusively professionals that often wager their reputation of name when they post, not the random internet we have here.
I just think you were a bit optimistic about the outcome
Originally posted by killion81 Isn't the act of telling someone else that they are wrong in their intolerance and should be tolerant of all people somewhat intolerant in itself? It seems that telling someone they are doing it wrong means you are not tolerating their chosen lifestyle. Maybe they were brought up that way and don't know differently. Is it still "their fault" they feel the way they do? Can you really expect them to set aside everything they have been exposed to in life to this point and see the "correct" way of things? Isn't that you being intolerant of what life has provided that person? Tolerance is a slippery slope. No, I don't think people should be tolerant of everything and everyone. If someone annoys me, I tell them so. If someone is rude to me, I call them on it. Being "tolerant" isn't necessarily "better".
This. In a nutshell. Covered in dark chocolate...and white.
Isn't the act of telling someone else that they are wrong in their intolerance and should be tolerant of all people somewhat intolerant in itself? It seems that telling someone they are doing it wrong means you are not tolerating their chosen lifestyle. Maybe they were brought up that way and don't know differently. Is it still "their fault" they feel the way they do? Can you really expect them to set aside everything they have been exposed to in life to this point and see the "correct" way of things? Isn't that you being intolerant of what life has provided that person?
Tolerance is a slippery slope. No, I don't think people should be tolerant of everything and everyone. If someone annoys me, I tell them so. If someone is rude to me, I call them on it. Being "tolerant" isn't necessarily "better".
Good that you already named the fallacy almost ad verbatum.
The difference between someone that is intollerant towards intollerance is that intollerance is unethical and works against society (better yet, ANY society)
If a chosen "lifestyle" (for example being racist) is harmful, then yes, we are not obliged to tollerate it.
This has nothing to do with "doing/thinking it wrong", it has to do with being harmful or not.
Isn't the act of telling someone else that they are wrong in their intolerance and should be tolerant of all people somewhat intolerant in itself? It seems that telling someone they are doing it wrong means you are not tolerating their chosen lifestyle. Maybe they were brought up that way and don't know differently. Is it still "their fault" they feel the way they do? Can you really expect them to set aside everything they have been exposed to in life to this point and see the "correct" way of things? Isn't that you being intolerant of what life has provided that person?
Tolerance is a slippery slope. No, I don't think people should be tolerant of everything and everyone. If someone annoys me, I tell them so. If someone is rude to me, I call them on it. Being "tolerant" isn't necessarily "better".
Good that you already named the fallacy almost ad verbatum.
The difference between someone that is intollerant towards intollerance is that intollerance is unethical and works against society (better yet, ANY society)
If a chosen "lifestyle" (for example being racist) is harmful, then yes, we are not obliged to tollerate it.
This has nothing to do with "doing/thinking it wrong", it has to do with being harmful or not.
You don't get to define what is unethical though. In a given society, lack of tolerance could provide a very real evolutionary advantage that significantly increased the chance of survival. Intolerance of the weak is present in nature every single day. Mother animals ditch the runts of a litter because it's probably not going to survive anyways and isn't worth the resources spent on it. Realistically, if nature says it's ok and nature "made" humans, how can humans say nature is wrong?
Isn't the act of telling someone else that they are wrong in their intolerance and should be tolerant of all people somewhat intolerant in itself? It seems that telling someone they are doing it wrong means you are not tolerating their chosen lifestyle. Maybe they were brought up that way and don't know differently. Is it still "their fault" they feel the way they do? Can you really expect them to set aside everything they have been exposed to in life to this point and see the "correct" way of things? Isn't that you being intolerant of what life has provided that person?
Tolerance is a slippery slope. No, I don't think people should be tolerant of everything and everyone. If someone annoys me, I tell them so. If someone is rude to me, I call them on it. Being "tolerant" isn't necessarily "better".
Hi. I'm not sure if you're addressing it to me, or to other folks, but I see what you mean and you put up a great point.
The comments are kind of derailing even me from my frame of my mind, though, so I hope you'll excuse me.
When we play games, we certainly don't come in loaded with thoughts about hating people for their actions, choices, or preoccupations. At the very least, I do not come into a game like RIFT or EVE thinking that I should go insult someone for being something I don't like today.
Games are supposed to be places where we can come together to get away from real life, and at times, real life issues like hate or misogyny come into games by virtue of player or developer occurrences. I feel, as a player of games, that I should do my part in making a game world welcoming to anyone who wants to play, and part of that is by opening up the idea that it's possible that what someone might be doing may not be cool to other people or can be hurtful.
Of course, everyone's welcome to disagree, and I'm cool with that, but I doubt the economic viability of a game in which part of its player base is emotionally miserable due to the conduct of other players. If you love the games you play, you should be happy others are playing... it keeps your game going, of course, if they're playing too.
A writer and gamer from the Philippines. Loves his mom dearly.
What it should boil down too is whether or not a person is great or just an idiot, culture, race, sex, sexual orientation, religion should not factor in to that decision, if it does your doing it wrong and missing out on what the world has to offer.
Bringing it back to gaming.....We see it with the use of the word noob, it seems forgotten that there was once a distinction between a newb and a noob, the former just needed to learn while the latter fails to, they've become homogenised of late and the word noob too easily thrown around. I think there are a significant proportion of the gamer population not too kind to newbs and treat them as noobs, sad thing is it just cycles that behaviour as an acceptable way to become a non noob. Games don't help promote inclusion either, kill stealing, node stealing and other forms of griefing are in built by mechanics, that has to stop if we want to build real communities within our games. Then of course there are people who just want to play a game and dont give a crap about community, to them this conversation is moot.
Hi. I'm not sure if you're addressing it to me, or to other folks, but I see what you mean and you put up a great point.
The comments are kind of derailing even me from my frame of my mind, though, so I hope you'll excuse me.
When we play games, we certainly don't come in loaded with thoughts about hating people for their actions, choices, or preoccupations. At the very least, I do not come into a game like RIFT or EVE thinking that I should go insult someone for being something I don't like today.
Games are supposed to be places where we can come together to get away from real life, and at times, real life issues like hate or misogyny come into games by virtue of player or developer occurrences. I feel, as a player of games, that I should do my part in making a game world welcoming to anyone who wants to play, and part of that is by opening up the idea that it's possible that what someone might be doing may not be cool to other people or can be hurtful.
Of course, everyone's welcome to disagree, and I'm cool with that, but I doubt the economic viability of a game in which part of its player base is emotionally miserable due to the conduct of other players. If you love the games you play, you should be happy others are playing... it keeps your game going, of course, if they're playing too.
I do agree with this and I am always nice to people in a game setting by default. I don't see any reason not be nice to some avatar that I am likely working with in some capacity to accomplish my goals within the game setting. Of course, games offer nice features like "Ignore" that allow us to customize our in game experience to some degree. If someone is annoying me, harassing me or just being an idiot, I can simply ignore them. Problem solved and it only required a very slight effort on my part.
Comments
I do not care if you were born, chose to be, tried it and are unsure, HOWEVER you got to be homosexual.
If you pay your taxes, dont commit crimes, are respectful, etc, the. I will have no problems with you.
But in my opinion: being gay IS NOT normal
Not that there is anything wrong with it, but its weird.
Sorry if anyone who is gay cant accept that
So you were just trying to get us to understand that you think being gay is not normal and that you also think that it's weird. Ok, noted.
I mean seriously? So you admit that you don't care if they are born that way? That is rather narrowminded of you, I sincerely hope you reconsider these beliefs... people can't help how they were born or who they are, you should accept everyone for who they are and let them live their lives freely. Saying "don't be gay around me" is like saying "don't be a woman around me" or "don't be tall around me" it makes no sense and its rude.
Of course, he sees he is losing and decides to retreat.
He seems like a nice bloke he just doesn't quite get that everyone is enitled to the same basic human rights, and that we all shouldn't rest until everyone is as free as the next person.
Agreed, I think I'll use your method of replacing "gay" with "woman" next time someone uses the "don't shove it down my throat" agrument. Its quite effective.
Everyone has a mother :-) lets hope they all love theirs hehe.
In the end it seems he simply wanted his opinion voiced and heard. It's reasonable.
A lot of things are not normal, including being left handed.
If a person presents you with his left hand for a handshake, is he shoving his lefthandedness down your throat?
How about red hair (only 1-2% of the human population), is the person indecent by not wearing a hat and flaunting his not normal genes around you?
On the other hand, where i live it's all confusing.
One guy i know was married, then left her after realising he was gay, going to work at a hairdressers (a bit cliche)
However, the strangest is this one (very):
The local pub landlord is gay, but used to be married to a woman (Woman A) years ago.
is now seeing a woman (C) who used to be married to a guy and has 4 kids herself.
This woman (A) then went on to become lesbian herself with another woman (B).
Now this woman (A)is with a divorced guy with 4 kids, who all goto the same pub as the gay landlord.
AND her ex girlfriend (Woman
All in the same town.
In summary, i think everyone is a little bit curious inside...or so it seems lol.
No, i don't want to include unethical scumbags.
Im however happy to include anyone that is not an unethical scumbag, no matter if i care to hear about his latest romp around gayville in gaytown at the gaybar of rainbow ponies.
Because i don't have to tollerate intollerance.
heheh very amusing and illustrative examples.
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Corpus Callosum
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Not necessarily a bad idea, but I can see the direction isn't going where I'd hope it would.
I stand by what I say though, when I talk about making game worlds safe for everyone to play in, where no one, for whatever reason, is treated like badly or like a second class citizen.
For instance, I welcome anyone with an opinion to post their opinion here, and I will rethink my ideas if there are valid issues that can change my opinion on a given point. That said, if people commenting here wish to be hostile or mean spirited, people will probably react accordingly.
That said, I'm all for fart jokes and memes and whatnot... but again, I prefer not to be mean to other people on principle, and the DA piece for today was a reflection on what we can do to make our game worlds a more prosperous place.
A writer and gamer from the Philippines. Loves his mom dearly.
Can also be found on http://www.gamesandgeekery.com
Isn't the act of telling someone else that they are wrong in their intolerance and should be tolerant of all people somewhat intolerant in itself? It seems that telling someone they are doing it wrong means you are not tolerating their chosen lifestyle. Maybe they were brought up that way and don't know differently. Is it still "their fault" they feel the way they do? Can you really expect them to set aside everything they have been exposed to in life to this point and see the "correct" way of things? Isn't that you being intolerant of what life has provided that person?
Tolerance is a slippery slope. No, I don't think people should be tolerant of everything and everyone. If someone annoys me, I tell them so. If someone is rude to me, I call them on it. Being "tolerant" isn't necessarily "better".
Seems the community is not ready for that.
How could they, if developers themselves are not ready for it.
This brings to mind this article on Gamasutra: http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/39367/Opinion_Awful_Lot_Of_Heterosexuals_Around_Here.php
The comments in this article don't look too bad now, but at release, before the sanitation by mods, we had around 500 replies of the same nature as the first comment in this thread.
Bare in mind Gamasutra is almost exclusively professionals that often wager their reputation of name when they post, not the random internet we have here.
I just think you were a bit optimistic about the outcome
This. In a nutshell. Covered in dark chocolate...and white.
Good that you already named the fallacy almost ad verbatum.
The difference between someone that is intollerant towards intollerance is that intollerance is unethical and works against society (better yet, ANY society)
If a chosen "lifestyle" (for example being racist) is harmful, then yes, we are not obliged to tollerate it.
This has nothing to do with "doing/thinking it wrong", it has to do with being harmful or not.
You don't get to define what is unethical though. In a given society, lack of tolerance could provide a very real evolutionary advantage that significantly increased the chance of survival. Intolerance of the weak is present in nature every single day. Mother animals ditch the runts of a litter because it's probably not going to survive anyways and isn't worth the resources spent on it. Realistically, if nature says it's ok and nature "made" humans, how can humans say nature is wrong?
Hi. I'm not sure if you're addressing it to me, or to other folks, but I see what you mean and you put up a great point.
The comments are kind of derailing even me from my frame of my mind, though, so I hope you'll excuse me.
When we play games, we certainly don't come in loaded with thoughts about hating people for their actions, choices, or preoccupations. At the very least, I do not come into a game like RIFT or EVE thinking that I should go insult someone for being something I don't like today.
Games are supposed to be places where we can come together to get away from real life, and at times, real life issues like hate or misogyny come into games by virtue of player or developer occurrences. I feel, as a player of games, that I should do my part in making a game world welcoming to anyone who wants to play, and part of that is by opening up the idea that it's possible that what someone might be doing may not be cool to other people or can be hurtful.
Of course, everyone's welcome to disagree, and I'm cool with that, but I doubt the economic viability of a game in which part of its player base is emotionally miserable due to the conduct of other players. If you love the games you play, you should be happy others are playing... it keeps your game going, of course, if they're playing too.
A writer and gamer from the Philippines. Loves his mom dearly.
Can also be found on http://www.gamesandgeekery.com
What it should boil down too is whether or not a person is great or just an idiot, culture, race, sex, sexual orientation, religion should not factor in to that decision, if it does your doing it wrong and missing out on what the world has to offer.
Bringing it back to gaming.....We see it with the use of the word noob, it seems forgotten that there was once a distinction between a newb and a noob, the former just needed to learn while the latter fails to, they've become homogenised of late and the word noob too easily thrown around. I think there are a significant proportion of the gamer population not too kind to newbs and treat them as noobs, sad thing is it just cycles that behaviour as an acceptable way to become a non noob. Games don't help promote inclusion either, kill stealing, node stealing and other forms of griefing are in built by mechanics, that has to stop if we want to build real communities within our games. Then of course there are people who just want to play a game and dont give a crap about community, to them this conversation is moot.
I do agree with this and I am always nice to people in a game setting by default. I don't see any reason not be nice to some avatar that I am likely working with in some capacity to accomplish my goals within the game setting. Of course, games offer nice features like "Ignore" that allow us to customize our in game experience to some degree. If someone is annoying me, harassing me or just being an idiot, I can simply ignore them. Problem solved and it only required a very slight effort on my part.