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Why are MMOs brain-dead easy now?

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  • UccisoreUccisore Presque Isle, MEPosts: 95Member

    Originally posted by TheCrow2k

    Originally posted by Uccisore

         It's Old Republic that's prompting this thread, but I'm not singling it out- they all seem to be this way. 

    -SNIP-

    Its not just MMO's its pretty much all games now, look at Skyrim ive stopped playing it a short time after my first dragon kill until such time as I can make the game more challenging (a promising mod just arrived recently) the biggest challenge in the game OOTB is managing your inventory which is just sad. The FPS genre is the same, once upon a time I would play single player FPS on Hard and it would be appropriately challenging, now hard has become the new normal and you need to play hardcore/nightmare to find an adequate challenge. CoD black ops & BF3 single player are insanely easy, RTS appears to be the last bastion when it comes to a decent challenge but that will not last.

     

    So what caused this shift ? several things actually (some of them are the same things that have caused single player games to become so much shorter too).

    - Generation Y's attention span is shorter than previous generations and according to science this trend is set to continue in future generations in our species. Gen Y'ers can decry this all they want but the scientific data is out there.

    - The popularity of Consoles have led games to become less complicated due to limited control options and so on (one of the reasons RTS is possibly our last bastion is that currently RTS doesnt translate well to console yet)  this has led to an overall dumbing down of games accross the board. In making controls simpler developers have also strived to make games more accessible to more people thereby simplifying them and to a large extent removing any real challenge. And now PC versions are 90% crappy console ports...

    - Most people do not even finish games now, I dont recall the exact figures but its probably related the attention spans again. Making games shorter and easier should help the intended audience finish them thus baiting them into buying the next installment in the series.

    In the case of MMO's I think all of the above cotribute to the ongoing dumbing down, devs want to reach a wider audience therefore they must accomodate the lowest common denominator. In this case thats the person who plays casually for 3-5 hours a week, in that time they want to progress & feel they have achieved something not just done corpse runs over & over. Developers see this and realise that to keep subscriptions from these people they need to dumb things down.

     

    I agree with some things you said, not others. First of all, Skyrim is an overhyped piece of trash.  There's like 9 different monsters to fight, and you fight them in three different textures of dungeons, and they just stretch out what should be 5 hours of content into a 200 hour long slog.  It's not challenging in the slightest unless you set it on Master, and then even if you do, practically every skill leveled past 50 feels like an exploit because it lets you kill monsters without them even being able to hit you back.

    I disagree that the popularity of consoles has to do with games being easier.  Consoles have been the preferred way to game until very recently- back in the Atari and NES days, computer gaming was trash.  And those console games could be really, really, really hard. Go play the first Megaman again and see.  And there's console games now like Dark Souls that are deep and difficult- simply having less buttons shouldn't make THAT much of a difference.

     

    I agree with the rest of what you said for the most part.  that being said, is there an exception? Some MMO that isn't easy mode and brainless?

     

    I should add, I like to solo most of the time- or at least have things to do in an MMO without having to LFG first.  But there's no reason it had to be simple, an area designed for solo play can still be challenging for 1 player.

  • SkuzSkuz WorcesterPosts: 1,034Member Uncommon

    Easy is subjective, if they put hard, brain-bending puzzles in, people will get frustrated to hell, a few smart-enough people will write guides, you will go read them, then it will be easy again.

  • Logos1326Logos1326 Houston, TXPosts: 237Member

    Originally posted by Uccisore

    Originally posted by evilastro

    Its not that they are any easier than before. They have always been easy. Just less time consuming now because they cater to the casual gamers so they earn more money.

     

    I remember soloing in Anarchy Online way back in the day, and getting my butt kicked by monsters the same level as me, and having to seriously sit down and put some time into thinking how I was going to build my character, tweak him out, and what abilities I should be using in order to be able to beat a certain area.  But then, in that game, I actually had a bunch of choices to make in character creation...

    Now it seems like if you're a level X, and you go in a dungeons that's maked as being for level X characters, it is expected that you will win with no effort, and if you actually have a hard time, it's because the game developers screwed up somehow.

    I've been toying with the idea of getting back into AO for that reason alone. Getting bored of mobs labeled "strong" or "difficult" when I can kill most in 2 or 3 hits and take no damage. AO and Eve are probably the last mmos I can remember having to actually put thought into. If AO had that new graphics upgrade they've hyped for seems like the past 10 years I'd be back already.

    Been said but times changed I guess. People want "i win" buttons and with so many crap games if you dare to put out a hard one the "this game's too hard" crowd will bail and go to that other game where they can max level in a day and feel like their character kicks donkeys..

     

    image
  • UccisoreUccisore Presque Isle, MEPosts: 95Member

    Originally posted by Logos1326

    Been said but times changed I guess. People want "i win" buttons and with so many crap games if you dare to put out a hard one the "this game's too hard" crowd will bail and go to that other game where they can max level in a day and feel like their character kicks donkeys..

     

    And yet some single player games are really hard and become quite popular!

  • TheCrow2kTheCrow2k Adelaide, AKPosts: 953Member

    Originally posted by Uccisore

    Originally posted by TheCrow2k


    Originally posted by Uccisore

         It's Old Republic that's prompting this thread, but I'm not singling it out- they all seem to be this way. 

    -SNIP-

    Its not just MMO's its pretty much all games now, look at Skyrim ive stopped playing it a short time after my first dragon kill until such time as I can make the game more challenging (a promising mod just arrived recently) the biggest challenge in the game OOTB is managing your inventory which is just sad. The FPS genre is the same, once upon a time I would play single player FPS on Hard and it would be appropriately challenging, now hard has become the new normal and you need to play hardcore/nightmare to find an adequate challenge. CoD black ops & BF3 single player are insanely easy, RTS appears to be the last bastion when it comes to a decent challenge but that will not last.

     

    So what caused this shift ? several things actually (some of them are the same things that have caused single player games to become so much shorter too).

    - Generation Y's attention span is shorter than previous generations and according to science this trend is set to continue in future generations in our species. Gen Y'ers can decry this all they want but the scientific data is out there.

    - The popularity of Consoles have led games to become less complicated due to limited control options and so on (one of the reasons RTS is possibly our last bastion is that currently RTS doesnt translate well to console yet)  this has led to an overall dumbing down of games accross the board. In making controls simpler developers have also strived to make games more accessible to more people thereby simplifying them and to a large extent removing any real challenge. And now PC versions are 90% crappy console ports...

    - Most people do not even finish games now, I dont recall the exact figures but its probably related the attention spans again. Making games shorter and easier should help the intended audience finish them thus baiting them into buying the next installment in the series.

    In the case of MMO's I think all of the above cotribute to the ongoing dumbing down, devs want to reach a wider audience therefore they must accomodate the lowest common denominator. In this case thats the person who plays casually for 3-5 hours a week, in that time they want to progress & feel they have achieved something not just done corpse runs over & over. Developers see this and realise that to keep subscriptions from these people they need to dumb things down.

     

    I agree with some things you said, not others. First of all, Skyrim is an overhyped piece of trash.  There's like 9 different monsters to fight, and you fight them in three different textures of dungeons, and they just stretch out what should be 5 hours of content into a 200 hour long slog.  It's not challenging in the slightest unless you set it on Master, and then even if you do, practically every skill leveled past 50 feels like an exploit because it lets you kill monsters without them even being able to hit you back.

    I disagree that the popularity of consoles has to do with games being easier.  Consoles have been the preferred way to game until very recently- back in the Atari and NES days, computer gaming was trash.  And those console games could be really, really, really hard. Go play the first Megaman again and see.  And there's console games now like Dark Souls that are deep and difficult- simply having less buttons shouldn't make THAT much of a difference.

     

    I agree with the rest of what you said for the most part.  that being said, is there an exception? Some MMO that isn't easy mode and brainless?

     

    I should add, I like to solo most of the time- or at least have things to do in an MMO without having to LFG first.  But there's no reason it had to be simple, an area designed for solo play can still be challenging for 1 player.



    I guess I never tied it ttogether properly but the current gen of consoles are really for Gen Y & or Casual players (families) such as the Wii.

    PC gaming became more dominant during the rise of the FPS which really came to proper fruition around the time doom arrived on the scene in 93, by that time 90% of the people I know who had NES/Sega had a PC for gaming on and by the time Doom 2 arrived it seemed like PC had become the gamers choice.

    Remember how  godamn hard console games were back in the day ? first console I ever owned was a Sega Megadrive 2 (Sega Genesis 2 in North America) and godamn the games were hard. Most games once you were dead or used up all your lives you had to start the whole game over at level 1. The few games that did let you "save" were limited to 2-3 save slots and often heavily limited where or when you could save. Overall the games were much harder and 90% of them had fairly steep learning curves. Toward the end of the 16 bit era we started to see more games with multiple difficulty modes but even then most of these were quite challenging on easy.

    Dont get me wrong I own a PS3 and still have my old Xbox 1 as well, but even the gap between them is quite great. I know there were more complex and harder games available on my Xbox than there are now on my PS3.

    The rise of phone & tablet gaming is leading to more dumbing down also.

  • waynejr2waynejr2 West Toluca Lake, CAPosts: 4,475Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by roby55

    The real question is What exactly is 'hard'  on a MMorpg ?

    The term 'hardcore' is being used alot but what exactly is 'hardcore' ?

    Does hardcore equals Long grind ?

    Does hardcore  equals Raid Boss fights?

    Does hardcore equals Severe Death penalty ?

    Most of the time when a mmo players means 'to easy' they are always talking about  How easy to  gain some rare armor or How fast Leveling is

    So can someone please tell me what exactly does the term 'hard' means when it comes to MMORPGS ?

    I think if little billy living in his mom's basement needs something to measure himself by, then having harsh death penalties might be a way for him to feel like he is making something of his life.

    Most people have real jobs that require real effort to overcome real issues and which give greater feelings of doing well in life.  Add to family to that and you have something going on.  Having a little fun in games that really don't matter is a great thing and not having to measure up to the basement dwellers is fine.

     

     

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Posts: 14,783Member Uncommon

    If you want a harder game, then play a harder game.  Don't sit here and whine that some games are easy.

    If having to pay attention lest you die is the criterion, then try Spiral Knights.  If Steam achievement statistics are to be believed, then only about 1/6 of the players who have beaten tier 2 have done so without dying.  And that doesn't mean 1/6 of players beat it without dying their first time.  Someone who beats it 20 times, and dies at least once on every single run until he finally gets through without dying on the 20th has beaten it without dying and is part of the 1/6.  Someone who comes back later with higher level gear to beat it without dying, but always died when in gear intended for tier 2, has beaten it without dying and is part of the 1/6.

  • UccisoreUccisore Presque Isle, MEPosts: 95Member

    Originally posted by waynejr2

    Most people have real jobs that require real effort to overcome real issues and which give greater feelings of doing well in life.  Add to family to that and you have something going on.  Having a little fun in games that really don't matter is a great thing and not having to measure up to the basement dwellers is fine.

     

     

     

    Which is fine. People that don't want to play challenging games have plenty of games for them to choose from. Go be a cartoon bear collecting magic stars for the Cupcake Princess, I understand.  Really- even I, the guy complaining who created this thread, likes easy brainless games to play for 10 minutes when I get home from work.

    My complaint isn't that people like you (and sometimes me) shouldn't have any games that cater to your tastes.  My complaint is that EVERY SINGLE DAMN GAME THEY MAKE NOW is that way. 

    Trash on people that play harder games all you like- I wasn't rude to you casuals, and I see no reason for you to be rude to me.  I think what's important is that there's a variety of games that cater to all sorts of different kinds of gamers. I don't see why you had to be a faggot about it.

  • TheCrow2kTheCrow2k Adelaide, AKPosts: 953Member

    Originally posted by waynejr2

    Originally posted by roby55

    The real question is What exactly is 'hard'  on a MMorpg ?

    The term 'hardcore' is being used alot but what exactly is 'hardcore' ?

    Does hardcore equals Long grind ?

    Does hardcore  equals Raid Boss fights?

    Does hardcore equals Severe Death penalty ?

    Most of the time when a mmo players means 'to easy' they are always talking about  How easy to  gain some rare armor or How fast Leveling is

    So can someone please tell me what exactly does the term 'hard' means when it comes to MMORPGS ?

    I think if little billy living in his mom's basement needs something to measure himself by, then having harsh death penalties might be a way for him to feel like he is making something of his life.

    Most people have real jobs that require real effort to overcome real issues and which give greater feelings of doing well in life.  Add to family to that and you have something going on.  Having a little fun in games that really don't matter is a great thing and not having to measure up to the basement dwellers is fine.

     

     

     

    Ouch very Harsh, and while I dont necessarily agree harsher death penalties in an MMO is the way to make the game more challnging I also think what you typed its quite untrue. I work a 45 hour week and 80% of my job is problem solving, I quite enjoy those moments where I overcome an issue.

    That said I dont play games that are midless or easy, even during relaxation I want a challenge in order to have fun.

    Forget the Computer game part of it and lets just think about say Chess. If I want to play Chess for fun would I have more fun beating down my kids over & over at chess or would I have more fun playing against another adult of a similar skill level who will give me a challenge so that when I do manage to win it feels like the victory was actually deserved & worthwhile ?

    Now apply the same concept to computer games. I dont want to wade through FPS levels where I can walk through enemy fire headshotting opponents with impunity. A game that allowed me to do so might capture my attention for a few hours perhaps if the ways to kill opponents were entertaining but even that would become tired and boring eventually.

  • DagerNexusDagerNexus Lexington, KYPosts: 4Member

    Um... have you played Eve Online? There's not a learning curve. Its a learning cliff!

  • UccisoreUccisore Presque Isle, MEPosts: 95Member

    Originally posted by Quizzical

    If you want a harder game, then play a harder game.  Don't sit here and whine that some games are easy.

     

    Actually, I'll complain about any goddamned thing I want, thank you very much. Mine surely wouldn't be the most oblique or unfounded complaint on these forums- and what the hell else is a video game message board for?  I'll check into Spiral Knights, I just glanced at the main page for a second and I didn't care for the graphics style, but that's not everything.

     

     

  • UccisoreUccisore Presque Isle, MEPosts: 95Member

    Originally posted by DagerNexus

    Um... have you played Eve Online? There's not a learning curve. Its a learning cliff!

    Yeah, that's a really good game.  I play it for a few months at a time, but I just can't get into the setting that much.

  • PalladinPalladin Atlanta, GAPosts: 426Member

    Why do people pay a monthly sub to play solo?

    AMD Phenum II x4 3.6Ghz 975 black edition
    8 gig Ram
    Radeon 4870

  • greyed-outgreyed-out buttercupsville, OKPosts: 99Member

    Well, it was already said: Lowest Common Denominator.  However, MMOs these days are too expensive to develop without engaging the casuals.  And its difficult to balance accessibility and the ability to get meaningful playtime done in short time blocks with meaningful difficulty.  And most developers aren't really that talented.

  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    I'm not sure they are
    Sure swtor is "mmos for dummies"
    But other recent ganesh like uncharted waters and perpetuum require the old noggin

    If you look at the next big game to hit - tsw - that is defiantly going for a more adult / less hand held audience than your typical wow clones.
  • TruthXHurtsTruthXHurts El Do, KSPosts: 1,555Member

    Because computers are in every household, and the average person is an idiot.

    "I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"

  • kishekishe aitooPosts: 1,978Member Uncommon

    Because ADHD kids of next generation need MMO equivalent of special olympics to stay amused.

     

    EVERYONE'S A WINNER, YAY!!!

  • stragen001stragen001 ReadingPosts: 1,720Member

     


    Why are MMOs brain-dead easy now?

    Because "we" made then that way. The large majority of MMO players are quite happy playing easy themepark games that are fun and casual. If that wasnt the case then the investors wouldnt be putting money into that type of game.

    The thing most people on this site fail to realise is that Most People Disagree With You. These forums have an unrepresentatively high amount of Sandbox / Ex SWG players on them. For every 1 post on mmorpg.com saying themeparks are lame and sandboxes are the way of the future, there are probably 5000 people that are happily playing themeparks and not posting on forums.

    You are the minority. That doesnt make you wrong. You are probably right, but the majority of MMO players just want to have fun, and themeparks give them that. 

    Cluck Cluck, Gibber Gibber, My Old Mans A Mushroom

  • TruthXHurtsTruthXHurts El Do, KSPosts: 1,555Member

    Originally posted by stragen001

     


    Why are MMOs brain-dead easy now?

    Because "we" made then that way. The large majority of MMO players are quite happy playing easy themepark games that are fun and casual. If that wasnt the case then the investors wouldnt be putting money into that type of game.

    The thing most people on this site fail to realise is that Most People Disagree With You. These forums have an unrepresentatively high amount of Sandbox / Ex SWG players on them. For every 1 post on mmorpg.com saying themeparks are lame and sandboxes are the way of the future, there are probably 5000 people that are happily playing themeparks and not posting on forums.

    You are the minority. That doesnt make you wrong. You are probably right, but the majority of MMO players just want to have fun, and themeparks give them that. 

    I have never been happier to be a minority. I am glad that I have thougts in my head, and enjoy a challenge. Do you rememeber buying a NES game back in the day and beating it in 4 hours? Usually not. Those games werea a challenge. Games are designed these days to be fun for a couple of weeks and thats it. The developers have figured out if they build a good game then people will just play it and then how are they supposed to sell more titles?

    "I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"

  • InFaVillaInFaVilla StockholmPosts: 592Member

    Originally posted by TruthXHurts

    Because computers are in every household, and the average person is an idiot.

    Do you know for sure that the average IQ of the old MMORPG population was much higher than the average IQ of the current MMORPG population?

  • TruthXHurtsTruthXHurts El Do, KSPosts: 1,555Member

    Originally posted by InFaVilla

    Originally posted by TruthXHurts

    Because computers are in every household, and the average person is an idiot.

    Do you know for sure that the average IQ of the old MMORPG population was much higher than the average IQ of the current MMORPG population?

    Logic would dictate that as the computer became more mainstream and found it's way into more homes the average user was less technically inclined. Therefore the average user most likely in the time of early MMO's was more intelligent than the average user of today.

    "I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"

  • stragen001stragen001 ReadingPosts: 1,720Member

    Originally posted by TruthXHurts

    Originally posted by InFaVilla


    Originally posted by TruthXHurts

    Because computers are in every household, and the average person is an idiot.

    Do you know for sure that the average IQ of the old MMORPG population was much higher than the average IQ of the current MMORPG population?

    Logic would dictate that as the computer became more mainstream and found it's way into more homes the average user was less technically inclined. Therefore the average user most likely in the time of early MMO's was more intelligent than the average user of today.

    I gotta agree with this. 10years ago, if you were a PC gamer, then you most likely built your PC yourself for fun. 10 years ago games WERE more complex.

    Now, everyone has a computer or laptop that they chose because it had a "pretty case" and there are many many people out there that just use it for facebook, twitter, youtube and other inane social media crap that are as thick as 2 short planks!

    Cluck Cluck, Gibber Gibber, My Old Mans A Mushroom

  • KhorsKhors San Antonio, TXPosts: 147Member

    Originally posted by InFaVilla

    Originally posted by TruthXHurts

    Because computers are in every household, and the average person is an idiot.

    Do you know for sure that the average IQ of the old MMORPG population was much higher than the average IQ of the current MMORPG population?

    Yes, we know for sure.  Ad-Site reviews that are lead by and contributed-to by old women and entitlement folks that which post-vanilla wow was their first so called mmo give higher-ranked reviews to welfare-state game-play with single-player rpg's called mmo's of ~85, while the mainstream consumer market of mmo enthusiasts give the same products a 5.9 average score.

     

    http://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/star-wars-the-old-republic

     

    The dumbification of mmo's will probably rebound in the next couple years starting with GW2.

  • RusqueRusque Las Vegas, NVPosts: 2,229Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by TruthXHurts

    I have never been happier to be a minority. I am glad that I have thougts in my head, and enjoy a challenge. Do you rememeber buying a NES game back in the day and beating it in 4 hours? Usually not. Those games werea a challenge. Games are designed these days to be fun for a couple of weeks and thats it. The developers have figured out if they build a good game then people will just play it and then how are they supposed to sell more titles?

     

    I'm usually not rude to people, but what a load of baloney.  Yeah, NES games were so difficult and challenging that we were beating them when we were 7 years old.  Seriously, think about that.

    And the fact that you legitimately believe that developers "have figured out" that making a good game is bad business is mind boggilingly ridiculous.

    Games are amazing these days, don't get me wrong, there are some stand out gems from the past, but overall games today far outclass what used to be.

  • DerrosDerros Posts: 1,077Member Uncommon

    games are as hard as you want them to be.  If you are only concerned with just "beating" the game, getting to the ending regardless of anything else, then yes, they are easier in the name of accesability. 

     

    But completing a game, with all the secrets, all the challenge modes, all the magiffins, thats not so easy.

     

    A return to:

     

    NES Ninja Turtles difficulty?  Hell no!

     

    Battle Toads difficulty? Oh dear god, why?

     

     

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