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MMOs that cater solely to the hardcore faceplant monthly

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  • rounnerrounner CanberraPosts: 603Member Uncommon

    Hardcore is a self aggrandising term.

     

    A full loot pvper will claim only full loot pvp is hardcore.

    A raider will claim only top end game raids are hardcore.

    A sandboxer will claim only open world sims are hardcore.

     

    I recommend you define the term for the sake of your argument. I refute any claim that WOW is or ever was hardcore. Just because some end game raids are hard doesnt make the game hard as a generalised description.

  • DewmDewm Soldotna, AKPosts: 1,341Member

    Originally posted by MMOExposed

    Originally posted by Loktofeit

    Originally posted by fenistil

    Another

    Hard raids = hard game   assumption.

    Damn this argument "WoW is not easy cause it have hard heroic raids" IS REALLY OLD.

    +1

    image

    The OP really needs to play something other than WOW.

     

    I notice you say this often, but what MMO is hard, based on this topic?

     

    FFXI (for the first 4 years) was very hard in compairison, PLUS it did decent in MMO subs, no it didn't have 10million players, but its had a pop. of around 500k for a very long time now.

     

     

    Please check out my channel. I do gaming reviews, gaming related reviews & lets plays. Thanks!

  • MogcatMogcat MelbournePosts: 193Member

    In the end WoWs difficulty is in the raids thats where blizz intended thats where the players expect and they are hard. You guys are being unfair to WoW and then expect the same treatment in return.

  • KhorsKhors San Antonio, TXPosts: 147Member

    Originally posted by Cuathon

    Originally posted by Khors


    Originally posted by Cuathon


    Originally posted by MMOExposed

    The major complaint around here is that MMO are becoming easier and more casual.

    well on the flip side of things, does making MMO more hardcore, actually make these games more successful?

    taking WoW for example. MMO Champion did a sample size on the Fireland Raider population. it shows only a tiny percentage of the player base have completed HardMode Rag, and a small percentage beat normal Rag.

     

     

    but word around here in WoW has become a Casual easy game, and has spread this Casual easy trend to new aged MMO.

    But if the games are becoming easier, than why so few people can beat the contents.

     

    this is when I have to question, what the MMORPG community consider to be "EASY"......

     

    WoW has been the top MMORPG in the west, but it started dropping subs as they changed to cater more to the Hardcore community which been crying out. But it seem to have backlashed on Blizzard.

    And I notice this same kinda crying out here from the MMORPG community. these Hardcore players as we call them, seem to be the vocal minority, which are driving the development of present and future MMO down hill.



    People are not talking about artificially inflated raid difficulties man. They are talking about the game.



    Right.

     

    Im baffled by the op.

     

    Hard mode instanced raiding that one washes repeats and does continuously over and over again has never been and will never be recognized as something similar to hardcore, let alone mmorpg enthusiast-like.

     

    Reason why 50% of subscribers seem to leave a subscription-based mmorpg within the first few months has little to do with that and more to do with the realization that one is paying $15/month for what amounts to a lobby-system cooperative online rpg with very little to no content that resembles what a massively-multiplayer open and organic player-involved and influenced world should.



    Finally someone agrees with me. I have been fighting the good fight for years but its so hard when no one else weighs in on your side.

    Oh they're there.  The thing is that mmorpg.com mods and the establishment usually permanently bans their accounts, so there "appears" to be this casual soft-core themepark majority on forums when that isn't the case at all.

  • CuathonCuathon University City, NYPosts: 2,211Member

    Originally posted by Khors

    Originally posted by Cuathon


    Originally posted by Khors


    Originally posted by Cuathon


    Originally posted by MMOExposed

    The major complaint around here is that MMO are becoming easier and more casual.

    well on the flip side of things, does making MMO more hardcore, actually make these games more successful?

    taking WoW for example. MMO Champion did a sample size on the Fireland Raider population. it shows only a tiny percentage of the player base have completed HardMode Rag, and a small percentage beat normal Rag.

     

     

    but word around here in WoW has become a Casual easy game, and has spread this Casual easy trend to new aged MMO.

    But if the games are becoming easier, than why so few people can beat the contents.

     

    this is when I have to question, what the MMORPG community consider to be "EASY"......

     

    WoW has been the top MMORPG in the west, but it started dropping subs as they changed to cater more to the Hardcore community which been crying out. But it seem to have backlashed on Blizzard.

    And I notice this same kinda crying out here from the MMORPG community. these Hardcore players as we call them, seem to be the vocal minority, which are driving the development of present and future MMO down hill.



    People are not talking about artificially inflated raid difficulties man. They are talking about the game.



    Right.

     

    Im baffled by the op.

     

    Hard mode instanced raiding that one washes repeats and does continuously over and over again has never been and will never be recognized as something similar to hardcore, let alone mmorpg enthusiast-like.

     

    Reason why 50% of subscribers seem to leave a subscription-based mmorpg within the first few months has little to do with that and more to do with the realization that one is paying $15/month for what amounts to a lobby-system cooperative online rpg with very little to no content that resembles what a massively-multiplayer open and organic player-involved and influenced world should.



    Finally someone agrees with me. I have been fighting the good fight for years but its so hard when no one else weighs in on your side.

    Oh they're there.  The thing is that mmorpg.com mods and the establishment usually permanently bans their accounts, so there "appears" to be this casual soft-core themepark majority on forums when that isn't the case at all.



    They must get overly pugnacious. I got a one day temp ban and a warning so far and I have said some mean things to people.

  • SkillCosbySkillCosby Trenton, MIPosts: 684Member

    The problem isn't about being too simple or too hardcore. It's about the face that MMOs have gone from virtual worlds to co'op sass.

  • CuathonCuathon University City, NYPosts: 2,211Member

    Originally posted by precious328

    The problem isn't about being too simple or too hardcore. It's about the face that MMOs have gone from virtual worlds to co'op sass.

    This is the major problem. Casuals played a part though.

  • tollboothtollbooth grants pass, ORPosts: 298Member

    Originally posted by jdlamson75

    I'm still trying to figure out what, exactly, "Hardcore" means.  Is it spending your entire waking life leveling up toons?  Raiding 5 times a week for 6 hour stretches?  Playing a game that has full loot ffa pvp?  Playing a game with permadeath?  So confoooosed.

    Casual gamer = ignorant of the world they are playing in, don't understand the game mechanics, and everything they know about the game they discovered from doing it wrong at least once.

    Hardcore gamer = uses his experience in all games to analyze his surroundings, and always moves according to a plan that he's laid out for himself. 

     

    or

    Casual gamer = doesn't like math

    Hardcore gamer = knows the math

  • slickbizzleslickbizzle Matthews, NCPosts: 464Member

    A hardcore MMO would bomb so bad. Even the people that cry for a hardcore MMO wouldn't play it. They just like saying those kind of  things.  

  • BossalinieBossalinie Hattiesburg, MSPosts: 683Member Uncommon

    After reading this thread, can you blame AAA developers for taking the easy way out?

    Sooooo many definitions of 'hardcore'

  • Goatgod76Goatgod76 Stow, OHPosts: 1,214Member

    Originally posted by MMOExposed

    The major complaint around here is that MMO are becoming easier and more casual.

    well on the flip side of things, does making MMO more hardcore, actually make these games more successful?

    taking WoW for example. MMO Champion did a sample size on the Fireland Raider population. it shows only a tiny percentage of the player base have completed HardMode Rag, and a small percentage beat normal Rag.

     

     

    but word around here in WoW has become a Casual easy game, and has spread this Casual easy trend to new aged MMO.

    But if the games are becoming easier, than why so few people can beat the contents.

     

    this is when I have to question, what the MMORPG community consider to be "EASY"......

     

    WoW has been the top MMORPG in the west, but it started dropping subs as they changed to cater more to the Hardcore community which been crying out. But it seem to have backlashed on Blizzard.

    And I notice this same kinda crying out here from the MMORPG community. these Hardcore players as we call them, seem to be the vocal minority, which are driving the development of present and future MMO down hill.

    Because the majority of the WoW population is that casual factor and don't want to try and beat the harder content because...well.....it's to hard in their eyes to be fun?

    Nice try to turn it around though. I mean, how many MMORPG's have you seen "cater" to hardcore in the...IDK...past 7 years? Oh, I know why...because the casual population is larger and they make games to appease them solely, forgetting those that kept the genre afloat with sub fees in the first place.

    WoW as an example was a bad choice too. I mean, I can put my friends 7 year old in front of a PC with WoW and I am willing to bet she could pick it up fast and be at cap in less than a month.

  • NaowutNaowut MusselkanaalPosts: 647Member Uncommon

    You need to understand that only a small % of players give a shit about raids.

    You think the perfect hardcore MMO everyone talks about will have shitty uberhardcoreomgsohard raids? >.>

     

    As soon as I reach this so called ''End game'' I usually quit.

    Only games that I didnt quit right away are Darkfall, Lineage 2 , SWG and my lovely HnH. <-- Oh what do you know, no shitty WoW raids.

     

    I actually bought a second monitor cause its impossible to play MMOs without watching TV shows so easy it is.

     

     

  • Goatgod76Goatgod76 Stow, OHPosts: 1,214Member

    Originally posted by slickbizzle

    A hardcore MMO would bomb so bad. Even the people that cry for a hardcore MMO wouldn't play it. They just like saying those kind of  things.  

    Nice ASSumption. We will see when Legends of Antavia goes live. Saying 2013 atm.

  • NaowutNaowut MusselkanaalPosts: 647Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by precious328

    The problem isn't about being too simple or too hardcore. It's about the face that MMOs have gone from virtual worlds to co'op sass.

    Also this.

     

    ''End game'' is to blame.

  • STBFMMCSTBFMMC rewwrg, INPosts: 4Member

    Originally posted by MMOExposed

    The major complaint around here is that MMO are becoming easier and more casual.

    well on the flip side of things, does making MMO more hardcore, actually make these games more successful?

    taking WoW for example. MMO Champion did a sample size on the Fireland Raider population. it shows only a tiny percentage of the player base have completed HardMode Rag, and a small percentage beat normal Rag.

     

     

    but word around here in WoW has become a Casual easy game, and has spread this Casual easy trend to new aged MMO.

    But if the games are becoming easier, than why so few people can beat the contents.

     

    this is when I have to question, what the MMORPG community consider to be "EASY"......

     

    WoW has been the top MMORPG in the west, but it started dropping subs as they changed to cater more to the Hardcore community which been crying out. But it seem to have backlashed on Blizzard.

    And I notice this same kinda crying out here from the MMORPG community. these Hardcore players as we call them, seem to be the vocal minority, which are driving the development of present and future MMO down hill.

     

    Raiding was a veeerrryyy small, and by god I mean very small part of the game when WoW was in vanilla. Hardly anyone raided back then, only the best of the best. Now anyone, and by god I mean anyone can get into a raid as soon as they reach 85 (anyone).

     

    Now all WoW focuses on is endgame, when it used to focus on everything but endgame, that's what made it such a difficult game. You really had to work your ass off to level, you had to group up a hell of a lot, not like now where you can solo everything. If guildies were offline you'd have to wait hours to find a group for a dungeon (Which was actually fun). It was really difficult even to get green gear, and blue gear took a lot of dedication. Epics were out of the question unless you spent at least 10 hours a day on the game.

     

    Do you want to know why people kept playing?.. they wanted to be THE BEST, they wanted to be the extremely small percentage of people that had ONE epic. They wanted to be the extremely small percentage of people that had even stepped in Molten Core (Obviously as WoW got older, the gear got better and it was easier to get into MC, but back when it first came out it was impossible without no-life'ing it.)

     

    Now, EVERYONE is THE BEST. Noone actually cares if you've been Heroic Bla Bla Bla.. all people care about are 'if you've got epics then you're the best', and therefore every 85 has epics and are considered the best. Epics really did mean so much back in the day, they meant you were ugly, fat, useless... but most of all... you were the best god damn WoW player IN THE WORLD!!!!

     

    And now.. everyone is just the same thing... where's the fun in that, huh Blizz?

  • OberanMiMOberanMiM Chicago, ILPosts: 236Member

    Originally posted by STBFMMC

    Now all WoW focuses on is endgame, when it used to focus on everything but endgame, that's what made it such a difficult game. You really had to work your ass off to level, you had to group up a hell of a lot, not like now where you can solo everything. If guildies were offline you'd have to wait hours to find a group for a dungeon (Which was actually fun). It was really difficult even to get green gear, and blue gear took a lot of dedication. Epics were out of the question unless you spent at least 10 hours a day on the game.

     

    Ironically when I started Vanilla WoW when it came out. I felt it was too easy to level (Granted I came from EQ where it was MUCH harder than WoW to level).

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Sioux City, IAPosts: 3,828Member


    Originally posted by Khors

    Originally posted by Cuathon

    Originally posted by MMOExposed

    The major complaint around here is that MMO are becoming easier and more casual.
    well on the flip side of things, does making MMO more hardcore, actually make these games more successful?
    taking WoW for example. MMO Champion did a sample size on the Fireland Raider population. it shows only a tiny percentage of the player base have completed HardMode Rag, and a small percentage beat normal Rag.

     
     
    but word around here in WoW has become a Casual easy game, and has spread this Casual easy trend to new aged MMO.
    But if the games are becoming easier, than why so few people can beat the contents.
     
    this is when I have to question, what the MMORPG community consider to be "EASY"......
     
    WoW has been the top MMORPG in the west, but it started dropping subs as they changed to cater more to the Hardcore community which been crying out. But it seem to have backlashed on Blizzard.
    And I notice this same kinda crying out here from the MMORPG community. these Hardcore players as we call them, seem to be the vocal minority, which are driving the development of present and future MMO down hill.

    People are not talking about artificially inflated raid difficulties man. They are talking about the game.

    Right.
     
    Im baffled by the op.
     
    Hard mode instanced raiding that one washes repeats and does continuously over and over again has never been and will never be recognized as something similar to hardcore, let alone mmorpg enthusiast-like.
     
    Reason why 50% of subscribers seem to leave a subscription-based mmorpg within the first few months has little to do with that and more to do with the realization that one is paying $15/month for what amounts to a lobby-system cooperative online rpg with very little to no content that resembles what a massively-multiplayer open and organic player-involved and influenced world should.



    ^^ +20 ^^
    Making a raid harder /= game being harder.

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • baritone3kbaritone3k El;k Grove Village, ILPosts: 223Member

    Originally posted by STBFMMC

    Originally posted by MMOExposed

    The major complaint around here is that MMO are becoming easier and more casual.

    well on the flip side of things, does making MMO more hardcore, actually make these games more successful?

    taking WoW for example. MMO Champion did a sample size on the Fireland Raider population. it shows only a tiny percentage of the player base have completed HardMode Rag, and a small percentage beat normal Rag.

     

     

    but word around here in WoW has become a Casual easy game, and has spread this Casual easy trend to new aged MMO.

    But if the games are becoming easier, than why so few people can beat the contents.

     

    this is when I have to question, what the MMORPG community consider to be "EASY"......

     

    WoW has been the top MMORPG in the west, but it started dropping subs as they changed to cater more to the Hardcore community which been crying out. But it seem to have backlashed on Blizzard.

    And I notice this same kinda crying out here from the MMORPG community. these Hardcore players as we call them, seem to be the vocal minority, which are driving the development of present and future MMO down hill.

     

    Raiding was a veeerrryyy small, and by god I mean very small part of the game when WoW was in vanilla. Hardly anyone raided back then, only the best of the best. Now anyone, and by god I mean anyone can get into a raid as soon as they reach 85 (anyone).

     

    Now all WoW focuses on is endgame, when it used to focus on everything but endgame, that's what made it such a difficult game. You really had to work your ass off to level, you had to group up a hell of a lot, not like now where you can solo everything. If guildies were offline you'd have to wait hours to find a group for a dungeon (Which was actually fun). It was really difficult even to get green gear, and blue gear took a lot of dedication. Epics were out of the question unless you spent at least 10 hours a day on the game.

     

    Do you want to know why people kept playing?.. they wanted to be THE BEST, they wanted to be the extremely small percentage of people that had ONE epic. They wanted to be the extremely small percentage of people that had even stepped in Molten Core (Obviously as WoW got older, the gear got better and it was easier to get into MC, but back when it first came out it was impossible without no-life'ing it.)

     

    Now, EVERYONE is THE BEST. Noone actually cares if you've been Heroic Bla Bla Bla.. all people care about are 'if you've got epics then you're the best', and therefore every 85 has epics and are considered the best. Epics really did mean so much back in the day, they meant you were ugly, fat, useless... but most of all... you were the best god damn WoW player IN THE WORLD!!!!

     

    And now.. everyone is just the same thing... where's the fun in that, huh Blizz?

    Actually - there is a subsection of WoW players that do have a way of determining elite ability - it is achievement date.

    A lot of people mistake the top players in WoW as being obsessed with gear, but it is a means to an end. Yes, it makes things easier by increasing the margin of error, sometimes is the difference between being able to absorb/avoid enough, dps enough, hps enough, tps to get past a gear check, and it helps impress when walking around and is fun to have a rare look to your toon when the game is so cookie-cutter (pre-Transmog). BUT what it is really about is getting the content down before others do. So the gear is a biproduct and means to an end - getting down the content faster and cleaner than the competition. Also topping meters on worldoflogs, etc. That is another goal.

    I have NEVER been on of those people. My fun has come in being able to do it while still having fun and doing it more efficiently. My favorite guild was called GAH in Wrath. Very short raid nights only a few days a week. It left you wanting more and completely refreshed. It also showed that these people were plain BETTER than the other players who logged 2x the hours and were only 1 or 2 bosses ahead. Yes, the guild would have progressed farther faster, and we never did kill the Lich King HM prior to the nerfs, but trading fun and real life pursuits (if it doesn't have a pulse and isn't art put it no higher than 10 on yuour list of priorities people - or you're a no-lifer and need to reevaluate) for some kind of virtual achievement actually elicits disdain from the rest of us.

     

    BUT I WANT TO FEEL REWARDED FOR SKILL MORESO THAN FOR TIME PUMPED INTO A GAME.

    I am really pulling for TERA to do well in the West. It is the most skill based MMO out there. Period. You have to execute your moves with the proper timing and placement, and it is not a walk in the park. You are actually a good player by playing well - not just by memorizing your rotation, moving out of the occasional fire and have the right talent points spent and being itemized correctly. No, TERA is much more than that.

    I played for a month on the Korean TERA, and if it was in English with other English speakers, I would have played longer. I am REALLY looking forward to it in May.

    Someone please make a good MMO.

  • laokokolaokoko TaipeiPosts: 2,003Member

    ^ see I dont' believe that.  How many people that was on wow or eve trial actually subscribe.  Very very small percentage.  

    I think some official says something like 1 in 5 people on wow trial actually subscribe, and 1 in 10 on Eve actualy subscribe.  I dont' know why the dev come out and say those things, maybe they just want to scare of their competition. 

    I think the genre idea is MMORPG isn't very fun.  Even the leading MMORPG like wow or eve in the market isn't very fun.

  • ClocksimusClocksimus Barrie, ONPosts: 354Member

    I might lose my head for saying this but making raids difficult for the vast majority of the playerbase to beat is technically making the game harder or at least that single aspect of it.  There is no reason to overhual your entire game (NGE it) in attempts to make it  harder, when other simplier solutions can be implemented.

    If WoW gameplay is too easy, then harder raids should not be of any issue  right?  Finding  25 friends that can press 1, 2. 3 and not stand in fire  is just as easy and the content can be cleared with no issues at all.  That simply isn't true.  Most people can not clear WoW's hardmodes even if they wanted to and therefore can not say the game is  easy.

    As for WoW's PvP difficulty.... That like many games  is an player skill issue.  Just as the vast majority can not clear hardmodes the vast majority will not excel at PvP, even if they enjoy it.  Those that do excel at PvP will find it boring killing the same player they view as skilless scrubs that aren't worth the effort.  Sadly devs can't make people better gamers and therefore fixing pvp is almost impossible as math no matter what kind of genius brain comes up with the formula can not accurately grade skill in a game with as many variables as an MMO.

  • laokokolaokoko TaipeiPosts: 2,003Member

    ^ The thing is those people don't even raid. 

    And they do have a point, for anything besides raids or pvp.  Which comprise 100% of wow endgame.  Wow is simple in it's complexity.  They want some deep complex economy, high risk vs reward pvp, very long travel.  5 hours of farming to recoup gear after you get killed.  Something like that. 

  • ClocksimusClocksimus Barrie, ONPosts: 354Member

    Originally posted by laokoko

    ^ The thing is those people don't even raid. 

    And they do have a point, for anything besides raids or pvp.  Which comprise 100% of wow endgame.  Wow is simple in it's complexity.  They want some deep complex economy, high risk vs reward pvp, very long travel.  5 hours of farming to recoup gear after you get killed.  Something like that. 

    That was the point i forgot to add.

    WoW is not designed to be complicated or have any real depth to it and people are confusing how much depth a game has for it's level of difficulty.  If you gave everyone in this thread a game of Tetris the amount of shamefully low scores would be somewhat shocking.  Tetris by no means groundbreaking gameplay by todays standard but doesn't it's easy to get an extremely high score in it.

     

    WoW is designed to be simple, yet still have the potential to be difficult.  PvE raiding and PvP makes up the vast majority of WoW endgame and therefore that is where blizzard will spend most of their resources instead of fixing what to them isn't broken. (as proven by their overflowing bank accounts)

    It's been said a million times. If you don't like WoW for whatever reason, don't play it.  it for many, is fine the way it is and it will not be changing.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member

    Originally posted by Cuathon

     present and future MMO down hill.



    People are not talking about artificially inflated raid difficulties man. They are talking about the game.

    Raid *is* part of the game. If you can pick and choose, then WOW is simultaneously a very difficult (doing Sunwell at L70) and a very easy (the first few quests you did) game.

    The statement that "WOW is easy" is simply wrong because there are parts which are NOT.

    It is much more accurate to pinpoint which part of the game is easy, and which is hard.

  • TyvolusNextTyvolusNext Gimpy, NVPosts: 192Member

    Originally posted by MMOExposed

    The major complaint around here is that MMO are becoming easier and more casual.

    well on the flip side of things, does making MMO more hardcore, actually make these games more successful?

    taking WoW for example. MMO Champion did a sample size on the Fireland Raider population. it shows only a tiny percentage of the player base have completed HardMode Rag, and a small percentage beat normal Rag.

     

     

    but word around here in WoW has become a Casual easy game, and has spread this Casual easy trend to new aged MMO.

    But if the games are becoming easier, than why so few people can beat the contents.

     

    this is when I have to question, what the MMORPG community consider to be "EASY"......

     

    WoW has been the top MMORPG in the west, but it started dropping subs as they changed to cater more to the Hardcore community which been crying out. But it seem to have backlashed on Blizzard.

    And I notice this same kinda crying out here from the MMORPG community. these Hardcore players as we call them, seem to be the vocal minority, which are driving the development of present and future MMO down hill.

    in short you are trying to tell game companies to find some common middle ground between casual and hardcore.  not sure it required a wall of text to do that.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member

    Originally posted by laokoko

    ^ The thing is those people don't even raid. 

    And they do have a point, for anything besides raids or pvp.  Which comprise 100% of wow endgame.  Wow is simple in it's complexity.  They want some deep complex economy, high risk vs reward pvp, very long travel.  5 hours of farming to recoup gear after you get killed.  Something like that. 



    After they add LFR, the raid completion rate jumps to 35%. Thus, it is hard to argue people do not raid. At least 35% do. Why do so few % finish Fireland or Hard Mode? Too difficult of course. Blizz has also stated that they have DATA showing people are trying and stopping because of the inability to progress.

    High risk vs reward pvp, very long travel, hours of farming .. none are complex. Just more time sink.

    The only thing that CAN BE complex is the mechanics and WOW has some pretty complex combat mechanics. Just take MM hunter as an example. Do you know how many phases are there for their DPS, and when to use what shot? Some even depends on the dynamcis (since haste can be different at different time) of cast times of the shots.

    Ditto for mages. Managing mana, burst CDs, procs and a host of other stuff is not exactly "simple".

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