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Agree with all suzie says but I still enjoy it.
Originally posted by moosecatlol The only thing that companions do that is innovative is take the work out of crafting, next up, companions that play the game for you.
LOL! Best. Comment. Ever.
Problem with an article like this is that both sides are winding down already.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
Nice article but I dont agree with the sentiment that just because they did not say they would be innovative then it is OK that they are not. In a highly competetive and saturated genre like MMORPG all games should strive to be innovative, specially one with such a huge budget. One which, imo, was squandered on voice acting.
They should have just made the class story lines with voice overs and the rest of the Kill X and Deliver Y quests could have been text because I believe most people are spacing through those anyway.
With the money saved from that they could have added some innovative world PvP conflict or atleast some kind of dynamic PvE quest gimmicks. Anything beside these same static world quests which we have seen repeated the last 10 years.
Rift atleast tried to be innovative. SW:TOR didn't even bother to try. And no, I dont see voice acting as innovative. Throwing away good money on hiring actors to read from a script is not innovative, it is just plain wasteful.
Originally posted by SBFord Originally posted by moosecatlol The only thing that companions do that is innovative is take the work out of crafting, next up, companions that play the game for you.
hehe I agree, very funny comment because it has a ring of truth to it.
Concerning the voice-overs, Age of Conan had only some of the quests use voice-overs. That is why I stopped playing that game. The first time I came up to a guy that instead of talking to me, made me read some paragraph totally killed the immersion of that game for me.
SWTOR is fully immersive, even if some of the side quests get sorta dull. It's way better to be able to skip through voice-overs than not have them at all.
ok. what game are all of you playing? the things you are complaining about are standard in every mmo including your beloved wow. dont like the voice acting? skip it. are you saying you actually read the written quests like in other games? wow put in the instant quest option awhile back so you didnt have to wait to accept it. this game has more in it than any mmo at RELEASE. for some reason, people want more content at a games release than a game thats been out several years. i understand the game had a huge payroll but the costs of making a game are alot more now than they were seven years ago. swtor has been out just over a month. what do you expect? its launch was smoother than most with the exception of rift. yes there are bugs. yes some of them are annoying. im just amazed at how some of you nitpick at the things in this game when those same things are in every other mmo. swtor just does it at least the same if not better.
Originally posted by Tardcore I think this article format is an excelent idea, and feel this first attempt brought up some very relevent criticisms about SWTOR. However it all becomes farce when I look to the right of the page see the big 8.7 near perfect rating. How could a game have such noteworthy flaws yet still recive such a steller rating?
I think this has something to do with MMORPG.COM's rating system where 8.7 is considered B+ or A-.
For me that is a bit confusing as C, average, would then be 5.0 and it is a long way from 5.0 to 8.7. And it is only 3-4 steps to B+/A-(C+, B-, B, B+, A-).
But in fact it seems that 7.5 is MMORPG.COM's rating for C which makes you wonder where the previous 7.4 is for. Does 1 mean that the game wont even start?
I think they need to simply rehaul their rating system where 5 is Average and then SW:TOR would have been given 7.5 which is far more reasonable.
Right now it seems the scores are artifically inflated because I dont even think it is possible to get less than 5 which begs the question of why even having a rating of 1-10 when 1-5 is never used.
Yeah I think Suzie wins...granted I'm biased because I agree with her viewpoints. But still, I just didn't see much merit in Adam's arguments. It seems like they boil down to:
1. You don't feel like a "mass-murderer" because you have purpose in your questing.
Umm...not really any more than WoW or its other imitators. The story quests are decent, but the vast majority of questing you do are the world quests, and they are the same recycled schlock that we deal with in any other MMORPG. Yeah, they are voiced, but this doesn't change the content. Instead of reading "raiders kidnapped mah cow! Kill 10 of them!" You just get that read to you. Having someone read something to you doesn't change what it is.
And guess what, most quests in SWTOR have a "bonus" that involves needlessly killing a TON of mobs. And since you typically fight 3 SWTOR mobs in each encounter, you are even MORE of a mass murderer.
2. It's good because it's Star Wars.
This statement just encourages mediocrity. If we are going to accept any pile of crap that has the Star Wars name on it, then that's what developers will deliver. Not saying that SWTOR is said crap.
3. No MMORPGs are really innovative.
Adam's gives examples about how all MMORPGs involve leveling (or skilling) up and pressing a button to kill things and thus concludes that none of them are really innovative. But this ignores everything that CAN be different about MMORPGs. Like how do you level? Do you do quest-node grinding? MOB camping? PvP? Trade skilling? Dynamic events?
Or what is the class design and group interaction? Trinity? Non-trinity?
There are so many ways that MMORPGs can be different...acting as if they are all the same because they are in the same genre just seems ignorant.
4. PvP sucks in most games but SWTOR has huttball!
Really? I mean really?
PvP is bad in SWTOR...I'm just going to say that. Huttball, while different from most MMO PvP, has so many things wrong with it. First, it strongly favors classes with knockbacks or speed abilities. And second, just three people working together can easily win Hutball by just positioning themselves cleverly for passes. It's not good for PUGs at all.
Oh, and did you forget abotu the non-tiered BGs? I know they made a tier for 50 now, but that doesn't help a level 10 fighting a level 49 with all his abilities and talents. The faction imbalance is another thing that makes PvP terrible...
5. Companions are great!
Adam's argument here is that basically players have agreed that they don't want to do group quests ever, so companions are a great solution to allow them to solo most things and still kind of be in a "group."
You know...instead of just concluding that MMORPGs are essentially a failed experiment because no one wants to group with other players, maybe we should try to remove the things that are annoying about grouping with other players. Like...the quest system. It's so hard to group with people in a quest-based MMORPGs because of the way quests chain.
You wouldn't need this "single player"-esque philosophy if grouping was actually fun and easy to do.
6. It feels like an MMO...just because.
Adam basically ignored any arguments against SWTOR feeling like an MMO and stated that it was just "because." He then brings up the fact that SWTOR has VO which makes it more engrossing. How many times are we going to harp on this VO thing? It's not an end all be all feature...I'm sorry, it just isn't.
Also...Adam mentioned that SWTOR followed in the footsteps of EQ. While this is true, EQ was MUCH more of an MMO that SWTOR is. SWTOR is heavily instanced or sharded in nearly EVERY SINGLE PLACE IN THE GAME.
All in all, everyone that argues in favor of SWTOR just seems to be spouting nonsense. At least when they try to counter all of the valid criticisms against it.
If you like SWTOR, fine, that's awesome, enjoy your game. Just don't think that the game is perfect and try to disqualify any criticisms against it, because it's just not. And when you do this, you are giving a license for mediocrity.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
Oh but they do
I have one companion that I swear will take out trash mobs much quicker than I can.
But this type of crafting system was employed in Fallen Earth. While you didn't have companions, your character was essentially a walking factory. You could queue up items to craft while you were out questing, grinding, gathering, etc... No need to stand around while you waited for items to finish.
I think this game is pretty uneventful and boring. The "almost" a jedi thing does not work for me. I want to play something that is more close to real world today.... Just another wow clone. Nothing special
That guy almost sounds like he enjoys sitting in front of a forge, staring at a percentage bar going from 0% to 100% for 27 times in a row before he can continue playing the game. There are some of us who enjoys playing the game for the whole time logged in, that's why this is the first mmorpg where I actually keep my crafting skills up to date.
And yes the companions are a lot of fun since they dont feel like just another DOT pet like in most other mmorpgs!
What comes to VO's and story, I love them, but I really see only 2 unique stories in this game. One for your chosen class per faction, having to run all the same other leveling content with no choise over the path you want to take at any time kinda narrows the uniqueness to only one time per faction, even if there is 4 unique main stories on both sides. This game should've had 2 different paths per planet and a couple of more off-planet ways to level besides PvP and space minigame.
Overall a great and a fun game, never had this much fun playing a mmorpg with friends before, lolling at eachothers dialog choises, doing HC's, flashpoints, zerging normal quests, something that is usually penalized in other games (grouping) with less XP and rewards (in TOR you get actually more) + it's fun to do dialog together, something that is missing completely in other mmorpgs.
"Group quests are met with scorn, socializing with people will garner the type of suspicion reserved for a child-molester, and if a guild asks you to play for more than 45 minutes a week, walk away and do not look back at the monster kids."
That is the console attitude that we now have in MMO's. Welcome to the darkside.
Overall I think SWtOR is a good but not great effort, but then with the contraints mordern MMO's are put under its hardly surprising I have not seen a great MMO release since Lotro was launched.
You received 25 Agrees. You're posting some good content. Great!
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Now Doesn't That Make You Feel All Warm And Fuzzy? :P
Originally posted by SBFord In BioWare's latest effort, we are part of the story and the narrative. Like a fine single player experience, we are central, and our decisions matter. If we wish to be a good upstanding hero, then the choice is ours to take the quest in that direction - alternatively if we are "roleplaying" a baby drowning psychopath then that option is also catered for. Who said that videogames aren't a good outlet?
I would have liked if it was like this. Unfortunately, this is completely misrepresenting the game. This was the reason I stopped playing my Jedi Consular and switched to a different class, because there just was NO WAY to resolve things peacefully or abide by the Jedi Code. You admit that in other games players basically play "mass-murdering psychopaths", but you don't see that little is different in TOR.
My "noble peacekeeper" was consistantly offered bonuses for killing MORE, rather than less people. I would say to a bunch of young padawans "revenge is not the answer, seek peace in the force, do not go after the raiders!", then i would immediately proceed to go after the raiders, kill 10 of them, receive an updated mission to kill 50 of tehm, then kill 50 of them, then kill their leader, then destroy their food supply. And all of this with full approval and even gratitude from the other "peace-loving" jedi masters.
The game's "choice" is limited to a few dialogue options, but is never actually reflected in the design. Star Wars Jedi should be rewarded for killing as FEW peopole as possible during a mission, not as MANY.
And you want to use your example of the baby-drowning psychopath? Well, there is a specific quest where you find a baby and are told "if you do not drop everything and feed it immediately, it will die". My character of course, picked up the baby, forgot all about it and several days later (both in game-time and out-of-game-time) when i remembered about, i did not find a dead smelly baby in my inventory, but rather the same baby there ready for the saving... I'm not talking about some mass re-making of the game, i'm talking about them adding a 30 minute timer to the quest and actually award dark or light for saving the baby or letting it starve to death...
Really, 95% of "choices" are pre-made for you considering that only 1 choice makes any sense whatsoever with the storyline. The other 5% are not actually matched by the rest of the game.
And i won't even start on the often conflicting LS/DS choices which seem to have been drawn out of a hat most of the time. Half the time obeying your masters and following jedi code is Light Side and half the time doing the exact same thing is Dark Side. Half the time stopping criminals and bringing them to justice is LS and half the time it's DS.... wtf kinda morality is this?
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STOFavourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, FirefallCurrently Playing: ESO
even though the comment is nice and all
grand phantasya already did that, sprites (even though when you summon then they jsut give you a buff and loot items) craft your items and they are auto bots too, just pay for CS items, go to sleep and let him do all lvling thing and loot.
just saying even that bioware copied from anotehr game , so yes guys and gals, this game have nothing new to give us. but hey at least they could pull of the pay a monthly fee to play a SP game
FOR HONOR, FOR FREEDOM.... and for some money.
I see the value in most of the points brought up in the article. However, while I'd agree with Suzie about the VO being a bit overdone, I wouldn't say that it makes the mission to be the "same thing" as any quest in any other game, any more than pulling a lever at a die-casting shop is the same as pulling a lever to start the gas chamber at Auschwitz.
For one(and this also speaks to the "murderer" comment), the VO often doesn't just start and end with talking with the QG, or even be just for the beginning and end of the mission. Quite often you are given a choice(s) DURING that mission; whether it's sparing the life of the target, or choosing a more/less merciful way of completing it.
It's true that many sidequests are as Suzie stated; last night some dork at the base asks for 10 ship parts. Clear the mobs, click on the things, turn it in to get your reward and a good butt smooching, and you're done, just like any other game. But along with it I got a mission to kill a boss, and after bringing him to his knees, I had the option to capture him (DARK side!) or to kill him outright (LIGHT side!). This makes all the difference in the world to someone who cares why they are doing the mission, and it's quite a difference between that and the old alternative: do the mission or don't.
Personally, I don't see, if someone can't appreciate that difference, or at least even SEE the difference, why they would ever want to play a role playing game at all.
Again, I agree that they are overused and/or suffer from being all clumped into a hub where it seems like you have 10 minutes of VO to get through for 3-4 missions in a row... and sometimes there's so much of it, it all runs together and you can't quite remember why you're doing what and for who...
...but it's still better 3-4 missions worth of text totally devoid of choices. For me, those tend to run together in much the same way.
And lastly, on the "murder" bit... can't possibly agree more. I'd LOVE to see an interesting MMO come out that isn't just about killing for XP and loot. To use BW's usual "go-to" philosophy regarding their content:
The MOVIES weren't JUST about going and killing stuff, and fights didn't break out EVERYWHERE the characters went. How often to Han and Chewie run into a building blasting everything in sight to go kill/spare some head honcho? Hell, Jabba was a total dick and they STILL tried to resolve things peacefully...
Originally posted by Kuinn Originally posted by SBFord Originally posted by moosecatlol The only thing that companions do that is innovative is take the work out of crafting, next up, companions that play the game for you.
That's something that I don't understand about games in general is where ever there is crafting, there is a crafting cast bar. Is there any purpose to this?
On the other hand, any skill that was required to gather materials in a competitive enviorment is lost on the concept of having your "Companions" doing it for you. Gathering can be one of the most cut-throat experiences out there, even more so than pvp in some cases.
Also having gathering nodes helps stimulate the economy in a way, because there is only so much of a certain gathering node that can spawn in a world. Where as having everyone's "Companions" off gathering materials makes those materials lose value. From what I understand, the only valuable crafting materials comes from raiding, and a long cooldown from an npc request.
My question is: What is it that crafters really want out of a games crafting? A rewarding crafting system like SWG's?
Also from what I've been reading on the SWTOR forums, players often don't find a solid use for crafted items in a raid enviornment, any truth to this?
I guess at this point I'm starting to derail the thread into a topic about crafting, I should go make breakfast or something.
Wait! The same Suzie Ford who gave the game 8/10 in this article:
Playing "bad cop" now eh? Hmm...
Cause, if i was to give a game an 8/10 about a month ago, I wouldn't feel like I'd be justified in writing an article where I have to play the "bad cop" and bash the game I obviously liked so much to give it an 8/10.
Shouldn't have fired Danny Wojcicki.
Originally posted by theniffrig Wait! The same Suzie Ford who gave the game 8/10 in this article: http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/367/feature/5947/The-Staff-Roundtable-Review.html Playing "bad cop" now eh? Hmm... Cause, if i was to give a game an 8/10 about a month ago, I wouldn't feel like I'd be justified in writing an article where I have to play the "bad cop" and bash the game I obviously liked so much to give it an 8/10. Shouldn't have fired Danny Wojcicki.
Aw c'mon. I gave it an 8/10 after only 5 days playing and with a lot of hesitation initially. It's not a bad game by any stretch. It's just a game that, for me anyway, got very old, very fast for the above-mentioned reasons.
The main thing that TOR has that others dont is stellar story and voice overs (conan had an excellent 20 lvls of Tortage, why do u think people feel that Tortage is the only good thing about Conan, because of the story and voice overs), These 2 things bring TOR to the forfront of all MMO's and simply make it more engaging and immesive and now for the most important part FUN.
Originally posted by SBFord I gave it an 8/10 after only 5 days playing
This is what's wrong with people giving opinions about games when they've hardly played them. If reviewers held off for about a month and then gave a review of the game they might give a more informed opinion that will better help sway the views of their readers.
Because all MMO crafting is clicking "craft" and waiting for the progress bar.
Apparently you've never played EQ2, Vanguard, SWG, or UO.
There use to be a time when crafting actually meant something, and took dedication and skill to do well at, and of course the reward was actually creating useful things. These days crafting is a side-show mechanic that everyone and their mother is expected to pick up and muddle their way through with little effort.
Originally posted by WhiteLantern Originally posted by Tardcore I think this article format is an excelent idea, and feel this first attempt brought up some very relevent criticisms about SWTOR. However it all becomes farce when I look to the right of the page see the big 8.7 near perfect rating. How could a game have such noteworthy flaws yet still recive such a steller rating?
8.7 is a solid "B" effort. Not even "B+", just "B". Not exactly a "near perfect rating".
On what scale?
10 - A
9 - B
8 - C
5 - F
3 - H
2 - I
1 - J
You are quickly running out of letters there with G-J being imaginary grades
Originally posted by moosecatlol That's something that I don't understand about games in general is where ever there is crafting, there is a crafting cast bar. Is there any purpose to this? On the other hand, any skill that was required to gather materials in a competitive enviorment is lost on the concept of having your "Companions" doing it for you. Gathering can be one of the most cut-throat experiences out there, even more so than pvp in some cases. Also having gathering nodes helps stimulate the economy in a way, because there is only so much of a certain gathering node that can spawn in a world. Where as having everyone's "Companions" off gathering materials makes those materials lose value. From what I understand, the only valuable crafting materials comes from raiding, and a long cooldown from an npc request. My question is: What is it that crafters really want out of a games crafting? A rewarding crafting system like SWG's? Also from what I've been reading on the SWTOR forums, players often don't find a solid use for crafted items in a raid enviornment, any truth to this? I guess at this point I'm starting to derail the thread into a topic about crafting, I should go make breakfast or something.
Just to make sure you understand: There ARE gathering nodes in the world, and they are by far the best way to gather materials. On the PvP front, you're right in that your crew member can gather while you keep an eye out for enemy players.
Having your crew "quest" for mats is expensive, and costs you the absence of that crew member. If you got all your mats by crew quests, you probably wouldn't profit at all from crafted gear. Or at least nowhere near as much.
Last but not least, there IS some serious money management required in this game, unlike most other MMO's. Skill training gets very expensive in higher levels, and don't forget you DO have to equip at least 2 characters; yours and at least one companion. And quest rewards are adequate, at best. I usually pick commendations every time.
Originally posted by theniffrig Originally posted by SBFord I gave it an 8/10 after only 5 days playing
The article was probably misleading in its title. It probably should have been called "First Impressions Review Roundtable" so as not to confuse it with Mike Bitton's official MMORPG.com review posted later. My 8/10 was definitely a 1st impressions review score.