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We are not locusts - Why the MMO genre must re-invent itself

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  • corpusccorpusc Chattanooga, TNPosts: 1,330Member

    Originally posted by Bladestrom

    why is thread being derailed to sandbox v themepark? 

     heh, seems like lately EVERY freakin' thread on every MMO forum quickly turns into sandbox vs. themepark.

     

    they aren't necessarily opposites, which is how most people seem to be acting.  even Darkfall has a certain small amount of themepark to it.  every game can have both aspects.  its just a matter of how much time/money is invested in culivating each of those aspects.

    The End
    ---------------------------
    i don't expect to like Darkfall, altho i may like it MORE than other MMOs. i know it is gonna have a very frustrating level of grind to it, even if its significantly less than most. waiting for a pure FAST action virtual world. dice rolling & character levels (even "skills") IN COMBAT should have never carried over from pencil & paper to a computer that can reasonably model 3D spaces and objects

  • CecropiaCecropia Posts: 3,472Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by corpusc

    Originally posted by Axehilt

     

    DF is the Bieber here.  Grindy and zergy.  Shallow.

    Without a doubt WOW was a more interesting challenge of my skills than anything I found in Darkfall.  If there was depth to be found in DF, it was well-hidden behind a huge wall of grind and zerginess.

    not only can you not keep the analogies straight, you then spin it off into an anti-Darkfall rant.  lol

    i don't give a crap what you thought of Darkfall, its just a ridiculous comment to equate it to "fast food".

     

    its obvious from that DF rant, and the WoW worship that real life skills have no importance to you.  throw that on the pile with other worthless things to you, like  a virtual world. or an MMO being an MMO.  these points have been made abundantly clear.  many times.  time to break out of old patterns.  but then.... thats what your preferred playstyle is.  oh well, i guess its all part of the big picture.

    When a certain type of person comes upon something that they really really like, they seem to cling to that specific thing like it's a fucking security blanket. In such a state, it apparently becomes quite the challenge to see the world outside of the comfy cozy blanky. Change is essentially something to fear. It gets even more powerful when that blanky is associated with one's career.  

    "DF is the Bieber here"...Yikes :) It really doesn't get more out of touch than that. ""'"W W   Holy Wowzers.

     

    "Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb

  • spaceportspaceport CatalunyaPosts: 405Member

    Originally posted by corpusc

    Originally posted by Axehilt


    Originally posted by corpusc

    @axehilt

     you really have no idea how ridiculous it sounds to say

     "Darkfall is fast food

    and WoW is fine steak"?

     unless you're a huge fan of Justin Bieber & (insert list of really popular musical artists), and think their popularity proves their superiority.... then you really should get off of that line of argumentation.

     also the whole part about saying how your favorite games have all the benefits a customer could want with NO DRAWBACKs (your FAST STEAK restaurant analogy), just goes to show that analogy very quickly breaks down.  almost nothing in this world is pure gain with no loss.

    DF is the Bieber here.  Grindy and zergy.  Shallow.

    Without a doubt WOW was a more interesting challenge of my skills than anything I found in Darkfall.  If there was depth to be found in DF, it was well-hidden behind a huge wall of grind and zerginess.

     

    not only can you not keep the analogies straight, you then spin it off into an anti-Darkfall rant.  lol

    i don't give a crap what you thought of Darkfall, its just a ridiculous comment to equate it to "fast food".

     

    its obvious from that DF rant, and the WoW worship that real life skills have no importance to you.  throw that on the pile with other worthless things to you, like  a virtual world. or an MMO being an MMO.  these points have been made abundantly clear.  many times.  time to break out of old patterns.  but then.... thats what your preferred playstyle is.  oh well, i guess its all part of the big picture.

    Lol you should read some of his posts every time he talks about EVE.

    It must really hurt to see a good MMO with sandbox elements be so successful, it contradicts everything he says about "good MMOs" being made for the lowest common denominator, how everyone hates PVP if it's not instanced, how having more things to do other than grind dungeons is  "bad game design", etc etc etc.

    "Sandbox players are just a niche audience, the only way to go is make generic mainstream MMOs"

    oh wait, but EvE has more subs than WAR, AoC, Aion and Rift put together...now that IS funny, mainstream MMOs with less players than an obscure niche sandbox...

    image
    "Esport with tournaments is for hardcore pvp'rs that want to be competitive. Openworld PVP with ganking and griefing is for casuals that just wants their pvp mixed with pve from time to time."
    otacu

  • Snaylor47Snaylor47 Des Moines, IAPosts: 962Member

    Originally posted by spacepor

     

    oh wait, but EvE has more subs than WAR, AoC, Aion and Rift put together...now that IS funny, mainstream MMOs with less players than an obscure niche sandbox...

    RIFT actually has about as many players as LOTRO which has about as many players as EvE. SO....

     

    Sandbox MMOs are made for quite a small market as the only successful on is EvE Online. Unless you want to really count Runescape.

     

    Then you also have to factor in how many people actually play EvE, because I remember when I played it that I had two subs running at the same time due to its skilling up while logged off thing.

    I don't care about innovation I care about fun.

  • jpnzjpnz SydneyPosts: 3,529Member

    Originally posted by spaceport

     

    Lol you should read some of his posts every time he talks about EVE.

    It must really hurt to see a good MMO with sandbox elements be so successful, it contradicts everything he says about "good MMOs" being made for the lowest common denominator, how everyone hates PVP if it's not instanced, how having more things to do other than grind dungeons is  "bad game design", etc etc etc.

    "Sandbox players are just a niche audience, the only way to go is make generic mainstream MMOs"

    oh wait, but EvE has more subs than WAR, AoC, Aion and Rift put together...now that IS funny, mainstream MMOs with less players than an obscure niche sandbox...

    The above post is factually false.

    EVE subs do not exceed WAR/AoC/Aion and Rift put together.

    The figures for Aion was 2-3M alone while EVE is around 400-500k from publically available records.

    Gdemami -
    Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  • AxehiltAxehilt San Francisco, CAPosts: 8,765Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by spaceport

    I thing you got it wrong dude.

    Themeparks are shallow & mainstream, they have no depth = McDonalds MMOs

    Sandboxes are innovative, have depth, freedom, choices, more things to do, and they aren't mainstream = Steak

    I really hope you are never in charge of developing an MMO, developers like you are the reason that basic themeparks made for 8 years old keep failing, just bad and shallow games.

    Darkfall is a shallow game about AFKing in front of ore nodes, AFKing in front of crafting stations, AFK swimming to gain stats, excessive grinding against mobs to gain skills, and finally zerging to win PVP.  How can you possibly think that's a deep game?  99% of the game for most players is as flat as a pancake!

    Meanwhile on the themepark side, a good themepark is quite frequently rewarding skilled play.  Not as often as it should be (leveling should be optionally more challenging, PVP shouldn't be about gear advantage, raiding should be small-scale to keep player decisions important) but far more often than a lousy sandbox like DF.

    DF is the Bieber of MMORPGs.

    "Joe stated his case logically and passionately, but his perceived effeminate voice only drew big gales of stupid laughter..." -Idiocracy
    "There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates

  • spaceportspaceport CatalunyaPosts: 405Member

    Originally posted by Snaylor47

    Originally posted by spacepor

     

    oh wait, but EvE has more subs than WAR, AoC, Aion and Rift put together...now that IS funny, mainstream MMOs with less players than an obscure niche sandbox...

    RIFT actually has about as many players as LOTRO which has about as many players as EvE. SO....

     

    Sandbox MMOs are made for quite a small market as the only successful on is EvE Online. Unless you want to really count Runescape.

     

    Then you also have to factor in how many people actually play EvE, because I remember when I played it that I had two subs running at the same time due to its skilling up while logged off thing.

    I love when people pull numbers out of their $#% lol.

    Lotro does not have as many players as EvE, and it's F2P.

    Rift is another failed themepark, even if it has 300k subs right now (it doesn't), just wait a couple of months and it will become f2p, or merge even more servers and become another joke like AoC or WAR.

    image
    "Esport with tournaments is for hardcore pvp'rs that want to be competitive. Openworld PVP with ganking and griefing is for casuals that just wants their pvp mixed with pve from time to time."
    otacu

  • spaceportspaceport CatalunyaPosts: 405Member

    Originally posted by jpnz

    Originally posted by spaceport


     

    Lol you should read some of his posts every time he talks about EVE.

    It must really hurt to see a good MMO with sandbox elements be so successful, it contradicts everything he says about "good MMOs" being made for the lowest common denominator, how everyone hates PVP if it's not instanced, how having more things to do other than grind dungeons is  "bad game design", etc etc etc.

    "Sandbox players are just a niche audience, the only way to go is make generic mainstream MMOs"

    oh wait, but EvE has more subs than WAR, AoC, Aion and Rift put together...now that IS funny, mainstream MMOs with less players than an obscure niche sandbox...

    The above post is factually false.

    EVE subs do not exceed WAR/AoC/Aion and Rift put together.

    The figures for Aion was 2-3M alone while EVE is around 400-500k from publically available records.

    Western Aion

    image
    "Esport with tournaments is for hardcore pvp'rs that want to be competitive. Openworld PVP with ganking and griefing is for casuals that just wants their pvp mixed with pve from time to time."
    otacu

  • laokokolaokoko TaipeiPosts: 2,003Member

    I dont' know how accurate all this internet rumor is.  But warhammer 80k, aoc 120k, eve 400k, rift and aion together should be more than 200k.  With alll the fiascol happens with eve on july about microtransaction I'm not sure if eve even have 400k now.

    But that's internet, I'm not sure if any of this is accurate.

  • smh_alotsmh_alot Area 51Posts: 976Member
    ? Whoa, where are people getting all these figures from?? I mean, I kinda guess that Aion has over 1 million subs because they keep making 200+ million dollar revenues a year from Aion, and I kinda guess that EVE has maybe somewhere around 300, 350k subs. But the rest of these figures are new to me. Are these figures all personal wild guesses or is there some info around that validates those figures?
  • CecropiaCecropia Posts: 3,472Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by smh_alot

    ? Whoa, where are people getting all these figures from?? I mean, I kinda guess that Aion has over 1 million subs because they keep making 200+ million dollar revenues a year from Aion, and I kinda guess that EVE has maybe somewhere around 300, 350k subs. But the rest of these figures are new to me. Are these figures all personal wild guesses or is there some info around that validates those figures?

    I have no idea where some of these folks are getting their numbers, but frankly, you sound creepishly familiar.


    “I sense something. A presence I've not felt since...” 

    "Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb

  • laokokolaokoko TaipeiPosts: 2,003Member

    Originally posted by smh_alot

    ? Whoa, where are people getting all these figures from?? I mean, I kinda guess that Aion has over 1 million subs because they keep making 200+ million dollar revenues a year from Aion, and I kinda guess that EVE has maybe somewhere around 300, 350k subs. But the rest of these figures are new to me. Are these figures all personal wild guesses or is there some info around that validates those figures?

    Google.  And I dont' know what Aion and Rift sub is, I just says I'm pretty sure the 2 total is over 200k.  And the guy specifically says aion western sub. 

    Eve publish it's sub.  But stop publishing it.  The guy says 400k-500k for Eve.  Base on google I'm not sure if it even have 400k, I dont' think it have 400k.

  • SanisarSanisar birmingham, ALPosts: 19Member

    MMOdata.net   has the most accurate data that I know of.  Most of the figures I see tossed around are pretty accurate though.

     

    @OP ; You are right on the money, and I have been preaching it for years.  MMO's are no longer 'virtual worlds'; they play like single player games for the most part with coop elements at level cap.  It is incredibly lazy design and IMO the genre is at an all-time low.

    The genre is either going to evolve into something deeper or titles are going to be designed to be F2P from the onset.  There is nothing in most modern MMOs to keep me engaged in a world longer than a month or two.  I think TOR is a huge step back for the genre, stripping even more MMO elements (meaningful worlds, noncombat progression, economies, player choice, etc.) and replacing them with a single-player leveling experience with a subset of 'rides' at level cap to hopefully keep you subbed.

    There is no mystery, excitement, or imagination involved for me.  Everything I'm going to do in game is a foregone conclusion when I make my character at level 1.  Am I supposed to pay BioWare $15 a month for the few twists and turns I encounter in the class stories?  Do you know how much Dostoevsky I can buy for the same money?

    TOR should have been sold as a B2P game with DLC plain and simple.  That is what the genre has evolved into sadly: 'MMO's' that are SPRPGs + dungeons/raids/battlegrounds . . . at $15 a month.

  • BanaghranBanaghran HuisoPosts: 869Member

    Originally posted by Axehilt

    Originally posted by spaceport

    I thing you got it wrong dude.

    Themeparks are shallow & mainstream, they have no depth = McDonalds MMOs

    Sandboxes are innovative, have depth, freedom, choices, more things to do, and they aren't mainstream = Steak

    I really hope you are never in charge of developing an MMO, developers like you are the reason that basic themeparks made for 8 years old keep failing, just bad and shallow games.

    Darkfall is a shallow game about AFKing in front of ore nodes, AFKing in front of crafting stations, AFK swimming to gain stats, excessive grinding against mobs to gain skills, and finally zerging to win PVP.  How can you possibly think that's a deep game?  99% of the game for most players is as flat as a pancake!

    Meanwhile on the themepark side, a good themepark is quite frequently rewarding skilled play.  Not as often as it should be (leveling should be optionally more challenging, PVP shouldn't be about gear advantage, raiding should be small-scale to keep player decisions important) but far more often than a lousy sandbox like DF.

    DF is the Bieber of MMORPGs.

    Im not talking bout DF now, but in general.

    This is ctually where the worlds collide, where two subgroups of mmo players clash, the question: What is more important, more deep and more fun? Solving WHEN and WHAT or HOW?

    WHEN - do i wait till i can wield the ubersword +3 ? or until i have the next level heal? or when i meet a terminator lv14 to tank ? or when i respec to be more defensive? do i really want to even respec, ever ?

    WHAT - do i kill this mob for exp, or the other one who also drops mats, or do i kill the completely different mob because i like his dying animation or it is weak to my damage type and will probably be willing to kill more of those that the first two? or yet another for some reputation?

    HOW - rotation, tactics, what do i do when he starts to spit the orange goo?

    Now ofcourse some of you will claim, that the WHEN and WHAT gets completely destroyed by guides and databases and such, but even HOW is not immune, bossmods, tactical exploits, overgearing, content trivialisation :) , you name it, we have seen it all.

    And some of you will claim that HOW is the only "good game design" :)

    Flame on!

    :)

  • DirkzenDirkzen New Castle, INPosts: 144Member

    Every time I hear someone say 'DF'  I think Dwarf Fortress...

    anyways

    I honestly don't mind being called a locust.  ..or whatever else you call it.   I do enjoy chewing and devouring all the content I get my hands on.   ...I just tend to do it a bit more slowly than most.   I like to actually 'read' the quests and text,  and get a feel for the story.

    Just once i'd like to see an MMORPG that made you stop and actually pay attention to what the NPC's are saying,  instead of some easy little button that lets you skip over everything. 

    If you give players an option to fast forward through everything,  you shouldn't be surprised when you suddenly have a large group of people standing at the end of your game,  staring at you after they've collected and completed everything.

    ...or even have quests that have 'coincedences'.   If you take this or that branch of the quest,  some open and others close further down the line.

    ...or how about permanent damage or missing NPC's when things happen?

    when an NPC dies,  it usually doesn't mean anything because ... well...  they just respawn for you later.  

    .....what if you killed that auctioneer,  and suddenly, just for YOU,  he never respawned again?

     

    Gah.  offtopic.

     

    So yes.

    Locust and proud.

     

  • laokokolaokoko TaipeiPosts: 2,003Member

    ^ I dont' know about swtor since i don' t play it but if mmorpg have voice over and story like skyrim, most people will read it.

  • Tutu2Tutu2 MelbournePosts: 564Member Uncommon

    I think the problem is overblown. You get a subset of hardcore players that play anywhere from 6-12 hours a day. (I dare say more) and are of course very familiar with the genre so they chew through content ridiculously fast. Then these same people will complain content isn't churnt out fast enough. That's just my personal obsevations. 

  • BanaghranBanaghran HuisoPosts: 869Member

    Originally posted by Tutu2

    I think the problem is overblown. You get a subset of hardcore players that play anywhere from 6-12 hours a day. (I dare say more) and are of course very familiar with the genre so they chew through content ridiculously fast. Then these same people will complain content isn't churnt out fast enough. That's just my personal obsevations. 

    If that would be the problem, everyone would probably be much happier, but we get now the same complains from people who play 2-3 hours a day and are far from "experts" in the field.

  • AutemOxAutemOx Fullerton, CAPosts: 1,704Member

    I can dig the original post.

    I think one thing he is not realizing though is that BW had no intention of their game lasting a long time.  Did they think gimmicks like voice acting was going to get them a long term userbase?  No, absolutely not... They are not fools.  But they are not trying to make game that lasts a long time, they want to make a game that is successful, and success in this industry is ever increasingly linked to original sales.  They want big sales right off the bat, and they do not need to worry about holding subscribers, because they already have a F2P plan laid out, and who knows how long their contract with LA is anyways?

    SWTOR is not a community game, it is not going to last, and it was never made to last.

    We need more games that were built to last, games like EVE, or Raph Koster's original vision of SWG.

    Play as your fav retro characters: cnd-online.net. My site: www.lysle.net. Blog: creatingaworld.blogspot.com.

  • oubersoubers bazelPosts: 876Member Common

    Originally posted by Tardcore

    "I saw the best minds of my generation destroyed by blandness, starving hysterical naked, dragging themselves through the MMO streets at dawn looking for an angry fix."

     

    If anything about this genre needs to be re-invented, its the players themselves. Don't like eating sh*t? Then stop ordering and paying for sh*t.

    freaking AMEN to this post man.....best f****** post in this whole thread.

     

    image
  • DredphyreDredphyre Los Angeles, CAPosts: 601Member

    Originally posted by Cuathon

    Originally posted by Dredphyre


    Originally posted by nikoliath

    Not ALL gamers are not locusts, simply the majority of people who participate on sites such as this are. Stop thinking the genre needs re-inventing because the fringes of a community say so.

    I think you win this thread.

     

    If a developer were to design a game based on majority opinion of this site, it would would be financial suicide. Catering to a fringe group from a fringe genre within the gaming industry isn't a recipe for much success.

    EvE says hi. ATITD also.

    Thanks for proving my point. EVE had to introduce strict casual areas and non-pvp zones in order to be successful. If CCP had listened to the sorts of 'enlightened' design elements spouted on this site as wisdom, they'd have an even smaller market. But I guess as long as the casuals and non-pvpers continue to subsidize CCP to code your gameplay, it's a success, eh?

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member

    Originally posted by Dredphyre

     

    Thanks for proving my point. EVE had to introduce strict casual areas and non-pvp zones in order to be successful. If CCP had listened to the sorts of 'enlightened' design elements spouted on this site as wisdom, they'd have an even smaller market. But I guess as long as the casuals and non-pvpers continue to subsidize CCP to code your gameplay, it's a success, eh?

     

    Sucess is, of course, relative. Back in the days of Kingdom of Drakkar and Isle of Kesmai, a few hundred people online at the same time is a big success.

    Now? There are two measures: a) number of active users, b) amount of money it makes.

    I highly doubt Eve is that successful even compared to many F2P games. Certainly it lost BIG TIME in terms of active users.

  • RonmelRonmel HarstadPosts: 7Member

    Originally posted by nikoliath

    Not ALL gamers are not locusts, simply the majority of people who participate on sites such as this are. Stop thinking the genre needs re-inventing because the fringes of a community say so.



    ~~in no order~~Anarchy Online, Neocron, EQ2, Lineage2, CoH, CoV, Guild Wars+, DAoC, SWG(+NGE), Starpeace, Second life, Saga Ryzom, Planetside, Auto Assault, Eve-Online, WW2O, DDO, MxO, WoW, VSoH, LOTRO, RF-online, Cabal, Fury BETA,SotNW,TR,PotBS,AoC,WAR,GalaxyOnline, Darkfall, Fallen Earth, Aion, STO, Champions Online, FFXIV, Rift, SWTOR

    I think this was somewhat funny. No offend. But , I just turned 40 last year and have been  playing games since early days when Commodore Vic 20 and Amstrad was the top notch. I have played all type of games and also have spend lots of time in mmo games. After World of warcraft entered the scene I have spend all my gaming time in several mmo games. I think I have totally  8-10 charachters  to hit the level cap in all the mmo games I have played, and that is 4 games.

    We are here talking about players that are going trough content like their life depends on it.  

    I just wonder, Nikoliath, if you should answer this thread with that nice lines of references of games you have played, mmo games.

    I'm just saying......

  • AxehiltAxehilt San Francisco, CAPosts: 8,765Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Banaghran

    Im not talking bout DF now, but in general.

    This is ctually where the worlds collide, where two subgroups of mmo players clash, the question: What is more important, more deep and more fun? Solving WHEN and WHAT or HOW?

    WHEN - do i wait till i can wield the ubersword +3 ? or until i have the next level heal? or when i meet a terminator lv14 to tank ? or when i respec to be more defensive? do i really want to even respec, ever ?

    WHAT - do i kill this mob for exp, or the other one who also drops mats, or do i kill the completely different mob because i like his dying animation or it is weak to my damage type and will probably be willing to kill more of those that the first two? or yet another for some reputation?

    HOW - rotation, tactics, what do i do when he starts to spit the orange goo?

    Now ofcourse some of you will claim, that the WHEN and WHAT gets completely destroyed by guides and databases and such, but even HOW is not immune, bossmods, tactical exploits, overgearing, content trivialisation :) , you name it, we have seen it all.

    And some of you will claim that HOW is the only "good game design" :)

    I'm a little confused.  Are you supporting or rejecting themepark depth?

    Because apart from damage vulnerabilities, literally everything you've listed is strongly present in themepark games.

    "Joe stated his case logically and passionately, but his perceived effeminate voice only drew big gales of stupid laughter..." -Idiocracy
    "There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates

  • RequiamerRequiamer ???Posts: 2,034Member

    I'm sorry you guys look at yourself like a kind of plague or whatever. The OP seam like a good guy, but that is kind of searching for himself a bit too much. Maybe learn about an mmo before going into it, and ye learn to know about yourself, then find a match.  And honestly don't be so sad about those kind of thing, some of the entertainment industry is made for people to behave with the "consume and throw away" principle, especially some of the western part of the world that have kind of lost totally contact with nature and respect to the world seen as a living entity, and more so people within the industry which is looking for quick and easy revenues. If you don't want to be part of such behavior, go a bit deeper, not every one behave like this, quiet the contrary in fact you would be amazed how few those people are in fact, but they have a huge impact never the less.

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