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SWTOR: not the whipping boy you are looking for

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Comments

  • Snaylor47Snaylor47 Des Moines, IAPosts: 962Member

    Originally posted by Edeus

    When you say "time for polish" do you mean the years it took WoW to be uber?  Or the years it took vanguard?  Or the years it took FFXI to be polished?

     

    OR is 2-3 months really a "long time to polish" in your book?

    No, I mean the few months it took the games with competent developers like Blizzard and TRION to sort out and fix all of the major bugs out there.

    I don't care about innovation I care about fun.

  • teakboisteakbois Parlin, NJPosts: 2,154Member

    Originally posted by Snaylor47

    No, I mean the few months it took the games with competent developers like Blizzard and TRION to sort out and fix all of the major bugs out there.

    To be fair, one thing neither blizzard nor Trion had:

    a parent company forcing them to push their product out the door before it was ready

  • itgrowlsitgrowls newport news, VAPosts: 2,951Member

    Originally posted by Snaylor47

    Originally posted by Edeus

    When you say "time for polish" do you mean the years it took WoW to be uber?  Or the years it took vanguard?  Or the years it took FFXI to be polished?

     

    OR is 2-3 months really a "long time to polish" in your book?

    No, I mean the few months it took the games with competent developers like Blizzard and TRION to sort out and fix all of the major bugs out there.

    personally i wouldn't call Blizzard competant it took them losing close to 2mil subs before they finally fixed the pet classes pets so they wouldn't suddenly change aggro in a fight and that took them 7 months to do it. I know i left them because of that and because of the constant need to relearn the class because they couldn't take the $15 a month and pay some guy to figure out how to separate the code for pve and pvp skills so that when they adjusted pvp it wouldn't affect pve. and then there's World of Pokemon.

    Any confidence i had lingering about Blizzard died in mid last year

  • KinchyleKinchyle Hugo, ORPosts: 309Member

    Originally posted by precious328

    Originally posted by Kinchyle


    Originally posted by teakbois


    Originally posted by precious328

     

    You have to remember this: A new game that launches is not competing with the launch of WoW; it competes with WoW as it is today.

    The problem is they *should* be competing with WoW at launch.  WoW was far better in 2004.  

    They shouldn't be trying to compete period. Just should be trying to make a quality product and people will buy/play

    Competition is a must. Why would someone want to play a game that only offers 20% of what another game offers?

    Other than story, the only thing SWTOR offers is the Star Wars Title, which is the real reason people bought this game in the first place. People won't admit this, though.

    That's what's wrong. Everyone caring what "the other guy" is doing. I play games for me and what I like. I don't base it off what WoW has done...neither should game makers any more. Competing with WoW is what has kilt many a game

  • PuremallacePuremallace Phoenix, AZPosts: 1,856Member

    You want me to list why Trion is better and why they get praised?

    1. Alive world...npc move they have patterns..day/night cycles..weather effects

    2. UI customization, import feature to import settings from you main to your alt

    3. macros, addons added in(not required)

    4. Auction House that makes sense on launch and improved within the firts month of launch

     

    I mean my god people were unsubbing from Rift because there ward drobe did not match. These guys are unsubbing from TOR because the pvp literally makes no sense and constant mistakes.

     

    Less then 24 hours after it was reported on the forums and this proves why TRION is better.

    3 things highlighted now pay attention:

    1. EU shards seperate from NA times of maintenance

    2. 30 minutes compared to 4+ hours

    3. SERVER LAG AND ABILITY DELAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY

     

     

    Source: http://forums.riftgame.com/official-rift-news/news-announcements/294993-upcoming-eu-region-update-2-00am-gmt-27-1-12-a.html


    ** Upcoming EU Region Update - 2:00am GMT 27/1/12 **



    Good evening!



    The EU shards will be coming down at 2:00am GMT, 27/1/12, for a brief update meant to address some server lag issues. The estimated downtime is ** 30 minutes **.



    Patch notes will be updated - they're short - and have already been posted in English here on the forums.



    I'll be back during the downtime with status updates!

    Source: http://forums.riftgame.com/official-rift-news/patch-notes/294922-rift-1-6-1-hotfix-10-10-30am-pst-1-26-12-na-2-00am-gmt-27-1-12-eu.html


    post RIFT 1.6.1 Hotfix #10 - 10:30am PST 1/26/12 [NA] - 2:00am GMT 27/1/12 [EU]



    GENERAL

    * Added some optimizations that should help with the recent server/ability lag issues.



  • SkillCosbySkillCosby Trenton, MIPosts: 684Member

    Originally posted by Snaylor47

    Originally posted by precious328

    You have to remember this: A new game that launches is not competing with the launch of WoW; it competes with WoW as it is today.

    WoW today has about 3 or four raids and about 15 (and three heroic ones) dungeons last I check, also about 5 BGs and one open world pvp space (which is more or less a timed BG).

     

    SWTOR has 2 raids and like ten dungeons, 3 BGS (with a fourth on the way), one actually open world pvp space (Albit a bit broken due to population).

     

    So mmm not that bad.

    I'm sorry, but WoW has SO MUCH MORE content than SWTOR. This is like comparing an ant to an elephant. I'm not a fan of either game, though.

  • PuremallacePuremallace Phoenix, AZPosts: 1,856Member

    I am sorry TOR fans you spent 8 months completely hammering Rift and WoW over and over and over and over and over and over almost constantly preeching the doom of both games. Now one month and your game is getting just hammered due to just silly stuff they missed.

     

    There is no take backs when the forum post history of this site and multiple other sites supports what I am saying.

  • SkillCosbySkillCosby Trenton, MIPosts: 684Member

    Originally posted by Kinchyle

    I don't base it off what WoW has done...neither should game makers any more. Competing with WoW is what has kilt many a game

    No. Copying WoW has killed so many games.

  • TesinatoTesinato Berlin, NJPosts: 222Member Uncommon

    At the end of the day, their business model is working, and clearly we are just a handful compared to the masses who apparently enjoy these Themeparks.  I'd imagine Bioware/EA probably made back what it invested, and then some, so what makes you think they "care" about us players?  Have they ever really cared about the folks who spend 60 bucks for their half baked, half thought out games?  I personally can't remember a time when EA had good customer service, nor can I remember them overly caring what other gamers thought about their games.

    What's worse, is that we sit here, bitching about it, but most of us probably bought SWTOR hoping it was different.  Hoping it would have tried to add something new.  Turns out it didn't.  Yea, it had a great storyline, yea the voice acting wasn't too bad, but it is still the linear hand-held game like Rift and WoW.  The only difference between them and SWTOR is that SWTOR has been out for a month, and they have been out for a lot longer.  Doesn't change the fact the Bioware/EA left out stuff, that the worlds feel empty and alone, and that when you get to max level, there is nothing to do aside from grinding warfronts/dungeons.

    Personally speaking, I'm quite sick of the same game, just in a different package.  As I read, I can tell a lot of you are also tired of it.  There isn't anything that can be done to solve this or fix it.  Clearly the "masses" have control and we are just a very small minority.  Clearly our voices don't matter, and I assume that no one really cares about what our thoughts or ideas are.  So until there is a developer that comes along that actually does care about this minority, I'm going to assume we are stuck where we are.  It sucks, but it is the reality of things. 

     

  • Snaylor47Snaylor47 Des Moines, IAPosts: 962Member

    Originally posted by precious328

     

    I'm sorry, but WoW has SO MUCH MORE content than SWTOR. This is like comparing an ant to an elephant. I'm not a fan of either game, though.

    Most of the content WoW had is 100% obsolite (suck without spell check). When was the last time someone raided Black Temple?

     

    So you can only compare content that you would actually do.

     

    And I do agree that WoW has more content but thats would be due to it being out for 7 years.

     

    As I said MMOs are like wine if they are made by good devs (Bioware, Blizzard, Anet, TRION).

    I don't care about innovation I care about fun.

  • SkillCosbySkillCosby Trenton, MIPosts: 684Member

    Originally posted by Snaylor47

    Originally posted by precious328

     

    I'm sorry, but WoW has SO MUCH MORE content than SWTOR. This is like comparing an ant to an elephant. I'm not a fan of either game, though.

    Most of the content WoW had is 100% obsolite (suck without spell check). When was the last time someone raided Black Temple?

     

    So you can only compare content that you would actually do.

     

    And I do agree that WoW has more content but thats would be due to it being out for 7 years.

     

    As I said MMOs are like wine if they are made by good devs (Bioware, Blizzard, Anet, TRION).

    I understand what you're saying. But I completely disagree about BioWare being good devs. In fact, I think they are border-line Cryptic material - especially that cocky and arrogant Daniel Erikson.

    They had the financial backing to make the first MMO that appealed to the masses. Instead, they focused on CGI, hype, simpler than simple pvp, and massive box sales. The "we'll fix it after the launch" attitude doesn't work.

  • Snaylor47Snaylor47 Des Moines, IAPosts: 962Member

    Originally posted by precious328

    I understand what you're saying. But I completely disagree about BioWare being good devs. In fact, I think they are border-line Cryptic material - especially that cocky and arrogant Daniel Erikson.

    They had the financial backing to make the first MMO that appealed to the masses. Instead, they focused on CGI, hype, simpler than simple pvp, and massive box sales. The "we'll fix it after the launch" attitude doesn't work.

    But what  you want (I assume more sandboxish) does not appeal to the masses and if anything gmaes like WoW and TOR appeal more then say DDO or LOTRO.

     

    And personally I find that you're a bit ignorant if you think that this game is somehow the most broken MMO to come out in the last 6 years, if it wasn't for RIFT I think people woudl be praising this game for its (relativly) Smooth launch.

    I don't care about innovation I care about fun.

  • RizelStarRizelStar Raleigh, NCPosts: 2,773Member

    Originally posted by precious328

    Originally posted by Kinchyle

    I don't base it off what WoW has done...neither should game makers any more. Competing with WoW is what has kilt many a game

    No. Copying WoW has killed so many games.

    Very true indeed.

    I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.

    I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.

    P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)

    Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.

  • StoneRoses2StoneRoses2 Seattle, WAPosts: 21Member

    Originally posted by precious328

    SWTOR disgusts me because of their poor use of research and resources.

    They didn't even bother to look at the horrible track record of Pure Theme Parks, e.g., Age of Conan, Warhammer Online, Star Trek Online, Aion, etc.

    BioWare did a fantastic job with the questing. They probably created the most entertaining grind to max level within the entire genre. However, there is no "me" in SWTOR. I have no identity; I have very little freedom. This is one of the smoking gun complaints in the games listed above.

    No end-game, boring and redundant instanced PvP, typecasted classes to the point where it's cheesy, shockingly poor performance for being an underwhelming graphical game, a blatant lack of social skills, the lack-luster console space shooter, and the complete and total single-player co'op epedemic are just some of the features that paint this terrible game a target.

    What pisses people off the most is their poor use of resources. They had the financial backing to make this game appealing to everyone. This includes socializers, explorers, adventurers, combat players, roleplayers, instanced pvp players, world pvp players, etc. There is nothing to explore. Follow the path and move along.

    This game, as far as I'm concerned, is the new laughing stock of the genre.

    Because Sandbox games have a great track record themselves!

     

    Again there is no way players like yourself will ever be pleased!

    Insatiable, Insatiable!

  • SkillCosbySkillCosby Trenton, MIPosts: 684Member

    Originally posted by Snaylor47

    Originally posted by precious328

    I understand what you're saying. But I completely disagree about BioWare being good devs. In fact, I think they are border-line Cryptic material - especially that cocky and arrogant Daniel Erikson.

    They had the financial backing to make the first MMO that appealed to the masses. Instead, they focused on CGI, hype, simpler than simple pvp, and massive box sales. The "we'll fix it after the launch" attitude doesn't work.

    But what  you want (I assume more sandboxish) does not appeal to the masses and if anything gmaes like WoW and TOR appeal more then say DDO or LOTRO.

     

    And personally I find that you're a bit ignorant if you think that this game is somehow the most broken MMO to come out in the last 6 years, if it wasn't for RIFT I think people woudl be praising this game for its (relativly) Smooth launch.

    Ignorant? I never said the game was broken. I'm saying that other than story, they have brought absolutely nothing new to the table. It's so linear and so "small scaled" that it belongs in a different genre. This goes from their tiny instanced raids to their tiny instanced pvp system.

    This isn't a MMORPG; it's a Massive Multiplayer Co'op Roleplaying Game.

    As for sandboxish games, they haven't been given a fair chance. There is a big difference when comparing LA/EA/BioWare $$ to a company that had created a game like Darkfall.

    If a sandboxish entity had the financial backing of most of these newer WAR-like flops, the entire genre would change for the better. As of now, MMOs are devolving to co'op.

    There is a reason why most post-WoW clones have experience a mass exodus within the first 4-6 months of launch.

  • AutemOxAutemOx Fullerton, CAPosts: 1,704Member

    I am confused, does the OP think that they are all terrible games but we should focus on them all equally or what?  Because I am up for that, they are all boring linear crummy games.

    Play as your fav retro characters: cnd-online.net. My site: www.lysle.net. Blog: creatingaworld.blogspot.com.

  • SkillCosbySkillCosby Trenton, MIPosts: 684Member

    Originally posted by StoneRoses

    Originally posted by precious328

    SWTOR disgusts me because of their poor use of research and resources.

    They didn't even bother to look at the horrible track record of Pure Theme Parks, e.g., Age of Conan, Warhammer Online, Star Trek Online, Aion, etc.

    BioWare did a fantastic job with the questing. They probably created the most entertaining grind to max level within the entire genre. However, there is no "me" in SWTOR. I have no identity; I have very little freedom. This is one of the smoking gun complaints in the games listed above.

    No end-game, boring and redundant instanced PvP, typecasted classes to the point where it's cheesy, shockingly poor performance for being an underwhelming graphical game, a blatant lack of social skills, the lack-luster console space shooter, and the complete and total single-player co'op epedemic are just some of the features that paint this terrible game a target.

    What pisses people off the most is their poor use of resources. They had the financial backing to make this game appealing to everyone. This includes socializers, explorers, adventurers, combat players, roleplayers, instanced pvp players, world pvp players, etc. There is nothing to explore. Follow the path and move along.

    This game, as far as I'm concerned, is the new laughing stock of the genre.

    Because Sandbox games have a great track record themselves!

     

    Again there is no way players like yourself will ever be pleased!

    Insatiable, Insatiable!

    Like I said before, if there is ever a AAA-funded sandbox MMO, the genre will change for the better.

    And when I say sandbox, I'm not refering to these hardcore first-person pov games like Mortal Online. I'm talking about a game that is loaded with both content and player-driven content.

  • TesinatoTesinato Berlin, NJPosts: 222Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by StoneRoses

    Originally posted by precious328

    SWTOR disgusts me because of their poor use of research and resources.

    They didn't even bother to look at the horrible track record of Pure Theme Parks, e.g., Age of Conan, Warhammer Online, Star Trek Online, Aion, etc.

    BioWare did a fantastic job with the questing. They probably created the most entertaining grind to max level within the entire genre. However, there is no "me" in SWTOR. I have no identity; I have very little freedom. This is one of the smoking gun complaints in the games listed above.

    No end-game, boring and redundant instanced PvP, typecasted classes to the point where it's cheesy, shockingly poor performance for being an underwhelming graphical game, a blatant lack of social skills, the lack-luster console space shooter, and the complete and total single-player co'op epedemic are just some of the features that paint this terrible game a target.

    What pisses people off the most is their poor use of resources. They had the financial backing to make this game appealing to everyone. This includes socializers, explorers, adventurers, combat players, roleplayers, instanced pvp players, world pvp players, etc. There is nothing to explore. Follow the path and move along.

    This game, as far as I'm concerned, is the new laughing stock of the genre.

    Because Sandbox games have a great track record themselves!

     

    Again there is no way players like yourself will ever be pleased!

    Insatiable, Insatiable!

    I honestly think there is a way to please those of us who are looking for more then just a b-line to endgame.  It just so happens that it doesn't exist, and from the looks of it, probably won't exist.  I'd venture to say that it is far too much work to create a game that has something to make every group happy.  I'd love to see a hybrid of a sandbox game and a themepark game.  I have no idea if that is even possible, but I do dare to dream of a day that this exists.

  • TealaTeala SomewherePosts: 7,430Member Uncommon

    Yes, lets blame everyone but the game company that made the game.   SWTOR is not the game it is becuase of Biowares design decisions, this is all Blizzards and Trions fault. 

    image
  • Snaylor47Snaylor47 Des Moines, IAPosts: 962Member

    Originally posted by precious328

    Like I said before, if there is ever a AAA-funded sandbox MMO, the genre will change for the better.

    And when I say sandbox, I'm not refering to these hardcore first-person pov games like Mortal Online. I'm talking about a game that is loaded with both content and player-driven content.

    SWG... Also had the SW name and was still a failure in the eyes of the very devs who created it.

     

    I think what you typed is absolutly BS the reason being that I once tried to get about 5 of my non mmo playing gamer friends into MMOs, I gave them all trial invites. They played for about a month n a half each and then unsubbed, Their reason? that there was too much crap to do and the game was too big. The Irony to it is they absoluty adore SKYRIM.

    I don't care about innovation I care about fun.

  • WarmakerWarmaker San Diego, CAPosts: 2,231Member

    Originally posted by Snaylor47

    Originally posted by precious328

     

    No end-game, boring and redundant instanced PvP, typecasted classes to the point where it's cheesy, shockingly poor performance for being an underwhelming graphical game, a blatant lack of social skills, the lack-luster console space shooter, and the complete and total single-player co'op epedemic are just some of the features that paint this terrible game a target.

    Most MMOs don't have very much end game at launch SWTOR did so please don't lie it makes you look like a troll.

    How did you get by in this genre?

    Read above

    You know what fuck it...

     

    Something tells me you don't relise that MMOs require time to add more content and polish.

    You do realize that MMORPGs live and die within the first month or two, right?  The track record is all there with some contenders over the years.

    As for instanced, redundant PvP, that's a trend with the newer MMORPGs now, and a direction I don't like.  Older titles allowed PvP in the same world as everyone else.  RvR included with some.  You could make a push with your buddies / guildmates to stir some trouble up in or near an establishment well known for the control by the enemy.  Or you could roam the countryside looking for trouble.  Or you could hit a smaller but still-enemy held area.   Or you could provide security against enemy PvPers in a friendly held area that is well known to be hit by the enemy.  Or you go to a smaller, friendly held area, just in case it does get attacked by the enemy.

    I recall in the 2003-2005 days of SWG on Tatooine, Imperial held Bestine and Rebel held Anchorhead, were sites of some major PvP fighting.  Imperials and Rebels hitting back and forth.  Sometimes you'd amass a big PvP group, then strike out to attack the enemy city.  On the way, guys on the outskirts notice several enemy player scouts on speederbikes just looking at and tracking your movements, careful not to get engaged, and reporting everything back to their faction.  The enemy may either sit tight and prepare to defend, or sometimes venture out and meet us in the open desert dunes of Tatooine.

    Get my drift?  That was the freedom, openness, and variety of options that open world PvP allowed, especially if there were mechanics involved for takeovers.

    But instanced PvP is the worst.  You fight in the same 1 or 2 battlegrounds ALL THE TIME.  There is no variety except for some of the player names involved.  When preview details came out on SWTOR that it was heavily instanced PvP, that was another major strike against it.

    "I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)

  • TealaTeala SomewherePosts: 7,430Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by precious328

    Originally posted by Kinchyle

    I don't base it off what WoW has done...neither should game makers any more. Competing with WoW is what has kilt many a game

    No. Copying WoW has killed so many games.

    Copying WoW is not what hurt games like Aion, Rift, AoC and SWTOR.  It is the fact that they "tried to copy" WoW and failed meserably at it.  I have said it before and I'll say it again, I'll say it a thousand times more, it is not that these games copied WoW, it is that they tried - if you are going to copy WoW, you have to do it "as good" or "better" than WoW.   Across the board...not just partially or half-arsed.   That is why these other games are not as successful and why they continue to not be as successful as WoW.   They are not doing it as good or better.

    image
  • StoneRoses2StoneRoses2 Seattle, WAPosts: 21Member

    Originally posted by Warmaker

    Originally posted by Snaylor47


    Originally posted by precious328

     

    No end-game, boring and redundant instanced PvP, typecasted classes to the point where it's cheesy, shockingly poor performance for being an underwhelming graphical game, a blatant lack of social skills, the lack-luster console space shooter, and the complete and total single-player co'op epedemic are just some of the features that paint this terrible game a target.

    Most MMOs don't have very much end game at launch SWTOR did so please don't lie it makes you look like a troll.

    How did you get by in this genre?

    Read above

    You know what fuck it...

     

    Something tells me you don't relise that MMOs require time to add more content and polish.

    You do realize that MMORPGs live and die within the first month or two, right?  The track record is all there with some contenders over the years.

    As for instanced, redundant PvP, that's a trend with the newer MMORPGs now, and a direction I don't like.  Older titles allowed PvP in the same world as everyone else.  RvR included with some.  You could make a push with your buddies / guildmates to stir some trouble up in or near an establishment well known for the control by the enemy.  Or you could roam the countryside looking for trouble.  Or you could hit a smaller but still-enemy held area.   Or you could provide security against enemy PvPers in a friendly held area that is well known to be hit by the enemy.  Or you go to a smaller, friendly held area, just in case it does get attacked by the enemy.

    I recall in the 2003-2005 days of SWG on Tatooine, Imperial held Bestine and Rebel held Anchorhead, were sites of some major PvP fighting.  Imperials and Rebels hitting back and forth.  Sometimes you'd amass a big PvP group, then strike out to attack the enemy city.  On the way, guys on the outskirts notice several enemy player scouts on speederbikes just looking at and tracking your movements, careful not to get engaged, and reporting everything back to their faction.  The enemy may either sit tight and prepare to defend, or sometimes venture out and meet us in the open desert dunes of Tatooine.

    Get my drift?  That was the freedom, openness, and variety of options that open world PvP allowed, especially if there were mechanics involved for takeovers.

    But instanced PvP is the worst.  You fight in the same 1 or 2 battlegrounds ALL THE TIME.  There is no variety except for some of the player names involved.  When preview details came out on SWTOR that it was heavily instanced PvP, that was another major strike against it.

    Seeing how most MMOs many claim are dead are in fact still around. Then you have the obvious one like Tabula Rasa.

  • AutemOxAutemOx Fullerton, CAPosts: 1,704Member

    Originally posted by Warmaker

    I recall in the 2003-2005 days of SWG on Tatooine, Imperial held Bestine and Rebel held Anchorhead, were sites of some major PvP fighting.  Imperials and Rebels hitting back and forth.  Sometimes you'd amass a big PvP group, then strike out to attack the enemy city.  On the way, guys on the outskirts notice several enemy player scouts on speederbikes just looking at and tracking your movements, careful not to get engaged, and reporting everything back to their faction.  The enemy may either sit tight and prepare to defend, or sometimes venture out and meet us in the open desert dunes of Tatooine.

    Get my drift?  That was the freedom, openness, and variety of options that open world PvP allowed, especially if there were mechanics involved for takeovers.

    But instanced PvP is the worst.  You fight in the same 1 or 2 battlegrounds ALL THE TIME.  There is no variety except for some of the player names involved.  When preview details came out on SWTOR that it was heavily instanced PvP, that was another major strike against it.

    That was some fun times!  I remember this really well.  That was probably the height of MMORPG PvP for me.  Instanced stuff is ok, but it doesnt have the same feel at all.  It feels like a mini-game or something.  SWG was truely immersive.

    Play as your fav retro characters: cnd-online.net. My site: www.lysle.net. Blog: creatingaworld.blogspot.com.

  • CavodCavod Brookfield, WIPosts: 295Member

    Originally posted by teakbois

     In both newer games people hit the cap, without such heavy analysis in less than 3.  



    I can't personally speak for Rift but if someone leveled to max level in 3 (days?) then I don't see how BW can be blamed for that.  It's the user's fault for speed rushing through content spamming spacebar.





    If a sight seeing tour takes 20 minutes to complete but I run through it not looking at anything, stopping to ponder or take it in, is it the tour's fault for me completing it in 2 minutes.





    How about a 900 page novel... I sure can page through one of those really fast.  Is it the writers fault if I do so, only glancing at each page for but a second and then criticize the book for faults which I created.





    Now, I mostly agree(or don't find need to disagree) with everything else you said, OP, except for the above.   We need to have some personal responsibility with everything, including MMOs.  Here we sit on our high horses expecting a newly released game to have a fully fleshed out leveling experience AND PvP system AND 'endgame' yet we foam at the mouths about it taking too long to be made/released and criticize them for spending too much money on it which can't be found IG.(because that's exactly what I've been reading on these forums)





    Yes, the devs have a lot of fault and blame to be placed on them... but so does the ravenous community.

     

    I can't help but wonder how many critics have tried to program something but a fraction as complex as a MMO.

    We really need separate forums for every newly launched game. There can be the anti-<MMO> one and there can be the 'what general discussion should be' one. All the lamenting can happen together where each can find solace in like minded can't-move-on-ers leaving the rest of us to actually move forward and discuss meaningful and relevant topics.

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