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General: Content Locusts Killed My MMO

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  • rojoArcueidrojoArcueid hell, NJPosts: 6,783Member Uncommon

    great read!!

    I really wish that somebody from BW/EA read this article and learn something.... By letting us reach level cap in a week or less they are indeed screwing all the lvl 1-49 content they worked so hard to provide us and spent so many millions of dollars on it. It is a total waste of content.

    I think if they give us a slower level progression we all benefit from it. We get to enjoy the whole storyline / all quests / content at a parallel level as the areas we are in while the devs have even more time to work on new content for future updates. End game rushers are less than the rest of the playerbase so i have no idea why the devs (in general) cater more to those guys instead of the ones that provide theme more profit.... since thats what they are all after.

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  • GardavsshadeGardavsshade Cedar Springs, MIPosts: 766Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Digna

    With gaming as with all aspects of life (real,lived life) people more and more want NOW and instant gratification. If its easy (generally not necessarily hand me the golden ring) they feel good. If it become a ''grind" as it used to be in the olden days  it becomes less likely people will continue to play. NOW. NOW. NOW. Part of this is the new lifestyle, fast, high-speed, on the go busy world. Back in the day only  'geeks' played. Now the average household has a gamer squirreled away somewhere. Even old grannies are doing it...immediate rewards = continuing subscribers, which is the lifeblood of games.

     

    Sometimes though, things can be over done and I think SWToR may be guilty of this. I don't regret my paying sub. I am however disappointed that I paid for multiple months. (I tend to throw $$ at games and get disappointed so another $50 or so wont matter much in the long run but still I wish I hadn't)

    I suppose I had hoped SWToR would be the return of that 'cherry high' that  I have found lacking in  many MMOs over the last few years. I like it but I don't know if it will be the game to hold me (on a daily basis say) for the next year+.  Each day I think this is less and less likely.

    You just highlighted what I personally think is the number one problem in the MMO Genre right now...

    As originally conceived (generally speaking) MMOs were not about NOW, NOW, NOW instat gratification, they were about a "journey and an adventure" and Time itself was an important component of the design equation.

    I think of how MMOs were as akin to Odysseus and His Odyssey.... and grand adventure, a thrilling adventure... ALSO quite a few parts of that adventure royally sucked... but that was part of what made the final ending so great. You can't get that kind of an experience in a NOW,NOW instant gratification novel.

    We have millions of People trying to take the MMOs and turn them from "Homer's Odyssey" into Pulp Fiction paperbacks. That is the biggest issue that needs fixing of all.

  • GardavsshadeGardavsshade Cedar Springs, MIPosts: 766Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by rojo6934

    great read!!

    I really wish that somebody from BW/EA read this article and learn something.... By letting us reach level cap in a week or less they are indeed screwing all the lvl 1-49 content they worked so hard to provide us and spent so many millions of dollars on it. It is a total waste of content.

    I think if they give us a slower level progression we all benefit from it. We get to enjoy the whole storyline / all quests / content at a parallel level as the areas we are in while the devs have even more time to work on new content for future updates. End game rushers are less than the rest of the playerbase so i have no idea why the devs (in general) cater more to those guys instead of the ones that provide theme more profit.... since thats what they are all after.

    I have been playing SWTOR and what has become very obvious to me is this:

    SWTOR was designed to be fast leveling ON PURPOSE. Leveling was made fast to get Players to the content that Bioware believes is MOST important... lvl 50 PvP (#1) and Raiding (#2).

    The voice acting and the grand storyline missions are just to help make the trip to level 50 much more entertaining as far as I can tell.

    It also seems to me that Bioware thinks that the PvE world exists only for the sake of the story and the missions. I honestly don't think they ever considered that some of us would actually want to spend most of our time in the PvE world itself (e.g. areas of exhaustion in the middle of world maps where there is no geographic roadblocks).

     

     

  • DutchSmurfDutchSmurf RomePosts: 9Member

    Originally posted by Gardavsshade

    I think of how MMOs were as akin to Odysseus and His Odyssey.... and grand adventure, a thrilling adventure... ALSO quite a few parts of that adventure royally sucked... but that was part of what made the final ending so great. You can't get that kind of an experience in a NOW,NOW instant gratification novel.

    We have millions of People trying to take the MMOs and turn them from "Homer's Odyssey" into Pulp Fiction paperbacks. That is the biggest issue that needs fixing of all.

    The problem with that example is that the Odyssey isn't that exciting. Of the 10 years he was gone, he spend 7 being stuck on a single island with as only company a nymph badly in love with him, but who he wasn't interested in. Another year was spend with Circe. The parties there of course were a fun experience, but I'm sure they became a grind after a few months. It also has lots of backtracking. The Odyssey is an epic story, but only because 8  years pass with just a few words. Actually playing through it would be a lot closer to the mmorpgs of old.

  • rojoArcueidrojoArcueid hell, NJPosts: 6,783Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Gardavsshade

    Originally posted by rojo6934

    great read!!

    I really wish that somebody from BW/EA read this article and learn something.... By letting us reach level cap in a week or less they are indeed screwing all the lvl 1-49 content they worked so hard to provide us and spent so many millions of dollars on it. It is a total waste of content.

    I think if they give us a slower level progression we all benefit from it. We get to enjoy the whole storyline / all quests / content at a parallel level as the areas we are in while the devs have even more time to work on new content for future updates. End game rushers are less than the rest of the playerbase so i have no idea why the devs (in general) cater more to those guys instead of the ones that provide theme more profit.... since thats what they are all after.

    I have been playing SWTOR and what has become very obvious to me is this:

    SWTOR was designed to be fast leveling ON PURPOSE. Leveling was made fast to get Players to the content that Bioware believes is MOST important... lvl 50 PvP (#1) and Raiding (#2).

    The voice acting and the grand storyline missions are just to help make the trip to level 50 much more entertaining as far as I can tell.

    It also seems to me that Bioware thinks that the PvE world exists only for the sake of the story and the missions. I honestly don't think they ever considered that some of us would actually want to spend most of our time in the PvE world itself (e.g. areas of exhaustion in the middle of world maps where there is no geographic roadblocks).

     

    Indeed,  and in my personal opinion thats their mistake. If they believe lvl 50 pvp and raiding is the most important aspect of Swtor then they should have spent more millions in that aspect instead of the journey from lvl 1-cap. I love their story and im trying to go as slow as i can (even rolling every class as alts) to get to know all storylines and their way towards lvl cap because im not fond of lvl 50 pvp and raiding every day rinse and repeat after i reach lvl cap.

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  • PilnkplonkPilnkplonk zagrebPosts: 1,532Member

    Bah, blaming players for not being sophisticated enough to "take the time" to appreciate your game is as as dull and unimpressive as a film director defending his latest flop at the box office by blaming "the uncouth public."

    Face it, devs. The players will play the game as it is made by YOU. There is only YOU to blame. The players are a simple bunch: they will play the game as it is. If it has glaring holes in balance they will "exploit it" because YOU made it possible and they are just playing the game to the best of their ability. Actually there is no such thing as "exploits" - there is only sloppy game design that makes possible effects not foreseen by the devs.

    This whole "ah, the players of my time were a sophisitcated evian-sipping intellectuals unlike this barely human ADD rabble we have nowadays" is just stupid, lame and ultimately insulting to the folks who actually paid good money to play your crummy game.

  • DogPantsDogPants Cincinnati, OHPosts: 1Member

    Originally posted by tshack88

    Would you rather take a long ass train ride through the desert, where you might see 1 or 2 amazing sights?

    Or would you rather take a ride half that distance, but through a place where you see something that floors you at least twice as much?

    The content they make in today's game is quality, not just bullshit filler like in the old days.  If you really prefer the original EQ questing to a game like SWTOR you're batshit insane, I'm sorry.

    And I also guaranfuckingtee you will not be writing an article about this when GW2 comes out even if you level at the exact same rate as today's game.  Why?  Because it's f2p.  




     

    Everyone has different likes and dislikes so when you tell other ppl that they are stupid  for liking something it makes you look very dumb...but seriously what's an "ass train"?

  • teakboisteakbois Parlin, NJPosts: 2,154Member

    Originally posted by DarthRahlik

    And besides, the content while leveling up is experienced to the full with character six and seven.

    Your whole article is dated, your game style is dated, your arguments are dated.

    You need to readjust your whole attitude.

     

    We live in the 21 century now. Not the stone age.

    I would say that I terribly disagree with everything you write.

     




     

    You may disagree with what she writes, but so far history has shown us she is right.  How?  Retention.

     

    Rift's retention has been abysmal.  Less then a year out, the game is down to less than 1/3 of its launch NA servers.   SWToR retention doesnt seem to be faring any better.

  • CavodCavod Brookfield, WIPosts: 295Member

    Originally posted by Arkinia

    I leveled much more quickly in WoW than in SWTOR. What game are you playing?




     

    This, among other this are way off in the article, almost as if she is talking conjecture vs actual experience.  Either that or we've been living in different parallel universes.  Heck, with all the charts and graphs the 'haters' are misrepresenting around, even they aren't bold enough to call it a 'free fall'.  lol wut?





    Either way, I do agree with the 'content locust' term she mentions, as people who speed through content only to rush to endgame are shorting themselves and stifling the genre.  And hey, we agree on one thing(whether she realizes it or not) that WoW ruined the genre.



     

    We really need separate forums for every newly launched game. There can be the anti-<MMO> one and there can be the 'what general discussion should be' one. All the lamenting can happen together where each can find solace in like minded can't-move-on-ers leaving the rest of us to actually move forward and discuss meaningful and relevant topics.

  • Cameron27Cameron27 Fort Collins, COPosts: 142Member

    I don't understand how everyone thinks its a minority that rushes through the content. The title of the article is right. I'ts a swarm of locusts, most people rush through content. I mean sounds to me like if you play ~2 hours a day of SWTOR you'd have a 50 in the first month of sub. Is that supposed to be a lot of content? I know the grinders could get itdone in about a week, but still I would think Bioware would want their main storyline to last longer than a month when played pretty casually.

    Actuallu I don't even know anymore. If FPS didn't have multiplayer then they would be crucified for the singleplayer they put out. Those stories are like 6 hours or less of gameplay.

    "I will not play it nor any other MMO until they make it possible to obtain the best gear without forcing people to group up to do so." SwampRob

  • MoiraeMoirae New Orleans, LAPosts: 2,746Member Uncommon

    Ok, the article is pretty good except for one thing... you can't be bothered to actually complete an entire planet before you leave it, whether you've outlevelled it or not.. why exactly? Because you want to get to the next planet. Its really as simply as that,and its YOUR OWN FAULT.

     

    My highest toon is level 38, and I had early access and have been skipping stuff. Here's an idea.... play everything. Don't ignore it just because you've decided you outleveled it. 

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by Cameron27
    I don't understand how everyone thinks its a minority that rushes through the content. The title of the article is right. I'ts a swarm of locusts, most people rush through content. I mean sounds to me like if you play ~2 hours a day of SWTOR you'd have a 50 in the first month of sub. Is that supposed to be a lot of content? I know the grinders could get itdone in about a week, but still I would think Bioware would want their main storyline to last longer than a month when played pretty casually.
    Actuallu I don't even know anymore. If FPS didn't have multiplayer then they would be crucified for the singleplayer they put out. Those stories are like 6 hours or less of gameplay.


    Most people really are not the get to the end in 2 hours kind of people. If that were true, Skyrim wouldn't have so many people playing it for a hundred hours or more. Ditto for SWToR. If most people just ran to the finish line as fast as they could, more than half the people in the game would be at max level (which isn't the case).

    From CNN:
    Why most people don't finish video games

    Most people don't even finish games. They haven't allowed as much time as the games take to finish, so they don't finish them. Or players skip to the multi player portion of the game because they can hop in, play for a bit, and then go get pizza or feed the kids or something. Developers know this.

    That's why leveling is fast. Not because of the minority of players who zip through content, but because developers have to grab the people who just aren't going to stick it out. If they lose those people, they lose a lot of money, because those people are literally the bread and butter of gaming...even mmorpg-ing.

    I don't think we're going to get a AAA game where the leveling portion of the game is the end game. We might get a AAA game where the end game includes more than the usual progression systems...for instance an end game story system in SWToR (which would keep me subbed). From the AA or A developers we might see that kind of game, but only because there just aren't enough people to support a AAA game where the leveling doesn't end.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • daeandordaeandor Houston, TXPosts: 2,996Member

    I'm going to say I agree with Isabelle.  I'm also going to say it has been said and argued more than a million times over on these very boards.  Last I'm going to say, corporations see what makes money and they produce it.  End.

  • chryseschryses LondonPosts: 1,453Member Uncommon

    Maybe the real question isn't about slowing down leveling but giving more options 'outside' of leveling.  I look back at all the MMO's I have played and why I subbed to some for 4 weeks and others for 6months - 6 years.

    All the MMO's I stuck with gave me other options besides leveling.  Vanguard kept me going for 6 months due to crafting and house building.  EvE kept me going for 6 years and mostly around trading and manufacturing.  Fallen Earth kept me going for 12 months because of crafting etc.

    I judge an MMO on what I can do outside of leveling and I think that is the key here, not slowing leveling down.

     

  • MoiraeMoirae New Orleans, LAPosts: 2,746Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by chryses

    Maybe the real question isn't about slowing down leveling but giving more options 'outside' of leveling.  I look back at all the MMO's I have played and why I subbed to some for 4 weeks and others for 6months - 6 years.

    All the MMO's I stuck with gave me other options besides leveling.  Vanguard kept me going for 6 months due to crafting and house building.  EvE kept me going for 6 years and mostly around trading and manufacturing.  Fallen Earth kept me going for 12 months because of crafting etc.

    I judge an MMO on what I can do outside of leveling and I think that is the key here, not slowing leveling down.

     

    Yeah, honestly, its been a long time since any games have given options outside leveling. Frankly, most people consider stuff outside leveling to be "fluff". It degrades those offerings and makes the companies think they don't have to offer anything else. 

    I may be very angry with the slimy things SOE has done with SWG and EQ2 but EQ2 is STILL my favorite game, even beyond SWTOR (did I just say that? I must be losing it). Why? Because it offers so much more than just leveling. 

  • nate1980nate1980 Evans, GAPosts: 1,829Member

    I remember the leveling experience in DAoC like it was just yesterday. It took an extremely long time to reach level 50. It took just as long to get from 40-50 as it did to get from 1-40. You grouped almost 100 % of the time, because group xp was the best way to level up. Because of this, getting groups was easy, people were skilled at team play, and because of the downtime and constant grouping, people socialized a lot. DAoC had a very strong community and had pride in their realms, which made RvR so great.

    With that said, would a long leveling up experience work in todays casual market? Even people like me who loved the MMORPG's the way they were pre-WoW have gotten older. I'm 31 years old now, I have a full-time job, and my real life is more interesting than any virtual life could provide. MMORPG's are no longer new, so exploring a new world is no longer magical the way it once was. Because the mechanics are the same, we already know how to play every new game that comes out, so would we really be tollerant towards such outdated mechanics, such as a long level grind?

    I think it's the developers who have trained past and current gamers alike to rush through the leveling experience and get to the endgame. That's because the journey is dull and tedious, and endgame activities offer the most challenge and group play. So it's in the developers best interest to retrain gamers to focus their enjoyment on the journey, instead of endgame. To do this, they need to prolong the leveling experience by several months. To do this, they need to make the journey fun and not tedious. They need to encourage group play, but not force it. Grouping 100% of the time, should be just as viable as soloing 100%. There needs to be a large variety of activities to do along the journey as well, because no matter how good the content is, doing the same activity for too long becomes grindy.

    If the journey to max levels is fun, then people won't care if it takes them several months to reach max level. Max level should be a continuation of the large variety of activities you experienced during the journey. I would suggest including, but not limiting it to player ran cities, extensive guild tools and features, a seperate persistent and in-depth battleground system like DAoC had, an extensive player ran economy reliant heavily on crafted/gathered items, a unique leveling experience through the use of class quests for each class (instead of a bunch of side quests with a smattering of class quests), and larger raids and organized PvP (at max lvl) to expand upon the already existing PvP and group features already present during the journey. In addition to this, I'd introduce an alternate leveling experience for max level characters, such as PvP ranks and more in-depth class specializations.

  • nate1980nate1980 Evans, GAPosts: 1,829Member

    I'd also like to point out that I think Bioware was moving the genre in the right direction with class quests. They aren't the first developer to add them, but they made them more immersive.

  • TimacekTimacek YlinPosts: 180Member

    Originally posted by Zekiah

    That's what you get when a MMO company spends a majority of their investment in one-time content, ie video cut scenes and VOs.

  • SanisarSanisar birmingham, ALPosts: 19Member

    This just in: Company who has only ever made single-player games develops MMO paced like a single-player game.  MMO players 'bored' before the first free month is up.  More at eleven.

     

    Too.  Many.   People.  Blaming.  Players.  For.  Not.  Liking.  Game.



     

  • mezlabormezlabor cocounut creek, FLPosts: 133Member

    I agree with the sentiments in this article. My Favorite MMOS are EVE online and FFXI and both games are marked by a very very long journey. The Journey tho is what I always enjoy the most. I played wow back when it was a much slower leveling proess. I enjoyed the ride. Once I hit end game I got bored very very quickly. Looking back on wow I realize the best time I had in that game was leveling and the "endgame" was incredibly dull.

  • THEchad88THEchad88 great neck, NYPosts: 38Member

    I like this article on a multiple of levels. Both on the author (as I've always felt MMO's these days were on a faster curve) and all the posters. Some very insightful responses to this.

    I got burned out on WoW during burning crusade when I hit the area after nagrand. I was getting antsy because most of my guild was already at the level cap and I was trying like hell to enjoy each and every quest for what they were. Unfortunately it can be a burden to be reading every single quest. Not to mention my friend who I would group with often would just grab all the quests without actually reading about it. And I was sorta playing catch up.

    This is sorta the affect I see coming from fast levelers who quickly grind it out. Others who aren't that level feel left out to a degree because they are lower level and skim over stuff to get xp faster and get to the same content the end gamers are already at. I know I did, or at least tried to while attempting to retain the integrity of my enjoyment of the content. Not only that but I found much content ruined by players who had already done the content and just gave out the answers to people who just had to have it immediately without thought of effort to obtain it themselves.

    While slowing leveling down will help slow up people getting to the end content I don't necessarily think it will stop those folks from trying to ramp it up as fast as they can.

    I am a believer in enjoying the content i'm playing. Taking my time, enjoying the world that has been created, feeling like i'm living in the world that has been created, and enjoying little details that the so called locusts skim over.

    Maybe if an MMO would reward players who take the slow down and enjoy things method there would be more that do. Of course the rewards would have to be quite substantial than just a piece of gear. There is too much reward of simple, money, and items these days in MMO's.

    Like how about rewards of the kind that unlock areas you couldn't get to otherwise. Whole towns, entire questlines. These have been done before but largely go by the wayside and i think need a HUGE comeback.

    Also there needs to be something said for the value of the content you are playing. Wow always was good about producing content but like in SWTOR the have increased the enjoyment of the content by engaging us as players in the quest we're working on. Both with voice acting and selective responses. Why stop there? What about important boss battles where the music becomes as meaningful to the fight as the fight itself? FFXI dragon fights anyone? Set the mood with the environment / graphics / sound. Pace the leveling and length of time in a zone. Quests should build like the plot of a good movie spiraling upwards to the climax. But make the climax worth it! Make it stand out! Rock our socks off! It's not JUST about level pacing or voice acting. Voice acting done well just hightens the experience a degree. But if you add in the voice acting, music, sound, pacing, gameplay they all add to the experience. And something I hope more games try to incorporate all these things together. It's not an easy feat.

     

  • binary_0011binary_0011 SingaporePosts: 528Member

    lot of of players skip the fp in swtor and grind HM again and again just to reach max level...what is the point if you ask me.....

  • saitoh183saitoh183 St-Eustache, QCPosts: 53Member
    Lots of good points and opinions from everyone. All this change to the rush rush to cap is one of the main reasons i decided to go play eve online. Not being a lvl base game and being player driven keeps the game exciting. Dev should take a page from the CCP playbook to try to come up with games that will keep people in for more 2 months after release. Blizz did it..CCP did it..and other before them did it

    GW---> (Ranger/Mesmer)Dark Raziel

  • JacobinJacobin Toronto, ONPosts: 697Member Uncommon

    There is no way mmos are going back to the oldschool grind.

     

    Look at the most popular online pvp games like starcraft, counterstrike, league of legends - they have minimal content compared to an mmo, but they have interestng gameplay. Fighting people involes a lot more then pressing tab-1-2-3-4 on the keyboard.

     

    This is why newer mmos fail. Once someone has gone through all the zones all they are left with is identical repetition usually in the form of gear grind. They can't do anything dynamic like come up with new strategies or change the world around them.

  • OzmodanOzmodan Hilliard, OHPosts: 7,191Member Uncommon

    I think many of you are missing the point.  A game does not have to be a grind, yet can be a entertaining sandbox.  When you get away from the dumb class/level system and go to a more realistic skill system you can extend play for much longer periods of time.  Take for example Eve, there are more skills than anyone could ever learn, you have to specialize which can easily be done in a month or two, yet if you want to diversify it can take quite some time to collect all the skills you need.  

    In Eve everything is made in game, only the most basic commodities are available from NPCs.  So resources are important.  The economy is based on the players, not who got which drop.  Crafting is a huge business in Eve.

    Eve has many avenues to get those resources.  Eve's biggest disappointment for me is the extremely boring mining design.  Someday CCP will realize that needs to change because most people just give up and bot.  Eve would be better off incorporating SWTOR's design of underlings who mine for you.  Resource collection should never be tedious.

    This could easily be translated into a fantasy setting.  Asheron's Call, while it had levels was really a skill based system.  You had to choose what to specialize in.  There was no resource collection in that game per se, yet  the real crafting was based around enhancing drops which were in essence it's form of resource collection.

    One of these days these theme park designers are going to realize the great benefit of a skill driven system.  With enough skills you can keep people hooked for years, not months.  The trick with a skill based system is to allow the low skiil point players to be competitive in pvp in a short period of time.  I think CCP has done a very good job in this area.

    Housing is another area, that if done right, can keep players in a game.  Two games that really excelled with housing was UO and SWG because housing was not instanced based, but in the actual player worlds.  Player built cities in SWG was an amazing accomplishment.  

    A successful game that keeps players playing in any genre could be done using the following:  A deep skill system that keeps players interested in the game that has set skill training times that increases the higher you go and are not limited to playtime.  The economy must be player based and be very varied.  Resource collection must be fun and not tedious.  Pvp balance is important, nothing must be allowed to be overpowering.  Factions are important in a pvp respect and must be more than 2.   Housing based in the actual player world is important, instanced based housing is just not near as interesting.

    I think a game designed around the principles above can retain players for a long period of time and keep them entertained.  There is no rush to end game in a game like this, you cannot speed up skills by playing more.  This attracts the casual player as well as the hardcore ones.

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