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General: Content Locusts Killed My MMO

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  • orsonstfuorsonstfu Belaton, LAPosts: 203Member

    Originally posted by Angier2758



    Originally posted by Laserwolf



    Skill-Based instead of Level-Based = Problem Solved.













    I played UO near constantly for at least 4-5 years. There was no "end-game" because the game never ended.  How can an MMO released 14 years ago get it so right while every MMO released now does it wrong?






















     










     

    You know you don't have to come to this article with an agenda.  Skill based systems are not better or worse; its just a different style.

    There isn't an agenda there. It's not an agenda simply because you disagree with it or make an inference there.

     

    The truth is that there wasn't an end game to Ultima Online. I defy you to find one. Not to mention you weren't pigeon holed into sticking with a single character you made years ago.

  • Xeno326Xeno326 , KSPosts: 77Member

    Originally posted by Wodge

    You read my mind.  Devs need to move the emphasis from "endgame" (read: "Raiding") and focus on all the other stuff.  

    I really emphasise with you on the topic of striving for awesome gear.  I couldn't tell you off the top of my head what my Rift or Old Republic characters are wearing, but i know my EQ1 Iksar Beastlord is wearing a Phase Spider Carapace, Lodizal Shell Shield, Waning Light Katar, Trak Bracer and JBoots, and I haven't played in years.  Theres no identity any more, its just a treadmill of incrementally better equipment with forgettable names.




     

    Because EQ had the best item system in place. You could make use of all the gear you collected on all your characters. Except for the no-drop stuff; which I wished were tradeable at that time. (but for reasons on how PVP worked on some of the servers (Rallos Zek anyone?) it made sense to have some no drop gear so players wouldn't lose all their gear when getting killed by other players.)

    items like what you mentioned plus the infamous "Fungi Tunic" were not overpowered, but very useful for leveling up a new character and actually had worth and value because those items were rare and provided beneficial value to the player (health regen, combat procs, beneficial buffs on click, etc), due to the god awful 4hr spawn time with a chance of the named mob spawning or a regular npc spawning in his place made those items that valuable and sought after.

    Not everyone could sit there forever camping the mob for hours on end, people back then respected other players who were camping a mob and waited in line to camp it next when that player left. Sometimes people would attempt to kill steal, but it wasn't worth it if you didn't know when it spawned exactly because you would of had to know when it was last killed exactly. Sometimes because of peoples schedules especially early in the morning the spawn was free for grabs. A lot of the time people logged out around the spawn just to check if the spawn was free.

    Another aspect, trains to zone, when mobs aggro'd you regardless of your level even if it's con level to you was gray actually chased you across the zone until you zoned out. The mobs would then stay there for awhile, confused where you went and would either walk back to their spawn points or attack other nearby players. Those mobs who walked back were still available to get attacked, we had no (Evade, Evade, Evade, Evade) and weird super speed back to their spawn points like we do now.

    Then the player controlled economy was pretty fun before they implemented bazaar's (auction house). People gathered in the commons tunnel posting what they were selling in chat. Was a very social and special environment, players dueling, showing off their characters, little visual trinkets, etc. Really made the experience even for how boring it could have been. Because you had no prices to match up with what others were selling the same item at, it became more of a bargain type of situation, where you could negotiate prices even trade coin + other valuable gear for the item you were wanting. Sometimes because there was no bazaar, people could really work the market by buying low and selling high at different times of the day.

    These are some of the memories I remember from my beginning experiences of MMO'ing mainly with EQ, even though there were some annoying parts and hard grind issues with leveling the overall atmosphere of the game and the life it had socially was very effective in accomplishing that goal.

  • tshack88tshack88 Indianapolis, INPosts: 48Member

    Would you rather take a long ass train ride through the desert, where you might see 1 or 2 amazing sights?

    Or would you rather take a ride half that distance, but through a place where you see something that floors you at least twice as much?

    The content they make in today's game is quality, not just bullshit filler like in the old days.  If you really prefer the original EQ questing to a game like SWTOR you're batshit insane, I'm sorry.

    And I also guaranfuckingtee you will not be writing an article about this when GW2 comes out even if you level at the exact same rate as today's game.  Why?  Because it's f2p.  

  • meesha035meesha035 olathe, KSPosts: 22Member Uncommon

    I know it's probably asking a lot,  but I would just love to see the new generation of MMO Gamer experience some of the things that I did in the dark ages of MMO's.  The things that keep me searching for that fix. That feeling of actual fear for my character as I'm exploring a new area.  The feeling of accomplishment when I finished my Soulfire quest.  Or that feeling of placing my fire gem in my peerless atlan claw for the first time on Darktide.  Or discovering my level 3 stamina to mana after countless fizzles and bags of spell components.  There is no sense of real accomplishment any more and it makes me sad that I may never experience that again in any MMO.

     

    But enough of nostalgia.  I haven't seen one person mention ArcheAge in this thread yet.  If you haven't looked at it yet,  I advise you to do so.  This game may be the light at the end of a very long tunnel that I've been looking for.

  • troublmakertroublmaker St. George''s, NFPosts: 337Member

    Originally posted by xenogias

    I would say the article is offbase somewhat. The devs arent listning to the "vocal minority" on this one. They are listening to the majority.  You may not like it but thoes of us that enjoyed old school MMO's are the minority now. The only proof I need is to say look at WoW and virtually every MMO since WOW. They make massive amounts of money. Sure they all fall off because people either go back to WoW or simply dont play an MMO but most of them have a big following still. Not big in WoW terms but they still have a player base.

    You can talk badly about f2p all you want but the model CLEARLY works or companies wouldnt use it. Look at Turbine. AC was a great, great game and pretty successfull in its time. But now, if they had not gone f2p with D&D and LOTRO they would have gone under as a company. But with there f2p model they have made bucketloads of money.

     

    As for AC memories I'll never forget failing something like 20 compound bows before finally making mine. Was a great, great day. I'll never forget the story arcs either. One of the best and I think most hated ones was the shadow spires and BZ :)


     

    Here's the problem, you think you're the majority... but you're not... you're actually the minority. The majority of people have jobs, have school, have lives, and have committments.  I don't say this to be slanderous towards you but I am merely saying that these people have a lot of other things to do.  The vast majority of SWTOR's gamer base isn't even Level 50 yet.  There might be 10% of the population that are Level 50 (maybe).

    People who play MMOs generally feel that their subscription fee entitltes them to new content, as if their subscribing is payment for more content, it's not.  Your subscription is a fee for using their server's bandwidth.

    Website: http://www.thegameguru.me / YouTube:

  • HurricanePipHurricanePip Sommerille, MAPosts: 167Member

    While leveling speed is part of the issue ... I guess I'm a hardcore player if I hit the Rift level cap in 2 weeks? The issue is really the challenge.

    MMOs have become mind numbing, clicking fests where time invested = accomplishment.  That's what's boring.  You don't need to think about leveling up or gear or anything.  Leveling naked in a number of MMOs is a totally valid path and that's not right.

    If you don't worry about it, it's not a problem.

  • knapuknapu GifhornPosts: 131Member

    Im just disapointed in the beta testers wtf did they do i would like to know ,pvp sucks unbalanced abd totally usless graphic bugs , skill lags etz i mean wtf .. this game could be rly good perhaps it will in future but by then noone will play it .

    Same story as with most of other new mmos that came out latley

    I am the punishment of God...
    If you had not committed great sins,
    God would not have sent a punishment like me upon you
    — Genghis Khan

  • WarbsWarbs ManchesterPosts: 245Member
    This is one reason I hope TERA does not westernise so much that it is easy to hit level cap
  • bansanbansan blah city, MOPosts: 367Member

    What a horrid, horrid article.

    It postulates that these locusts somehow ruin the game by going too fast, while at the same time acknowledging that these locusts are tiny in number.  If the rest of the population is going at a normal pace, what's the problem?

    Oh really, the devs are listening to these locusts at the exclusion of everyone else?  Then why is it that every new game that comes out takes less and less time to level to max?  If they were listening to these locusts, people would be complaining about the how long it takes to level, and not the other way around.

    What a sham.

  • Loke666Loke666 MalmöPosts: 17,975Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Warbs

    This is one reason I hope TERA does not westernise so much that it is easy to hit level cap

    TERA already got critized for that in Korea...

  • chryseschryses LondonPosts: 1,453Member Uncommon

    I agree entirely with this article. I am one of those players that loves the journey and not interested in the end content at all.  However I am a sandbox lover at heart but I don't min theme park when done well.

    I have this problem with almost all MMO's.  I hate seeing my missions (some which I want to do) turn grey and then I just have to cancel because I can't seem to level slow. 

    I don't want an XP decrease so you have to kill 20 rats instead of 10 but more content that takes time to complete but its ok if its half decent.  Alternatively, games like vanguard have a nice system of crafting having its only levelling process. I enjoyed that.

  • meesha035meesha035 olathe, KSPosts: 22Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by knapu

    Im just disapointed in the beta testers wtf did they do i would like to know ,pvp sucks unbalanced abd totally usless graphic bugs , skill lags etz i mean wtf .. this game could be rly good perhaps it will in future but by then noone will play it .

    Same story as with most of other new mmos that came out latley




     



    Unfortunately, 99% of 'beta testers' don't test / report anything.  They're in it to get a head start when the game releases or to just play the game for free for a while.

  • SuraknarSuraknar Montreal, QCPosts: 824Member

    Once again, this was expected, you may try to rationalise it as you wish but I had forseen this and expressed this in my posts months ago, even years ago about this game.

    Yes maybe the force is strong with me afterall. ;)

    - Duke Suraknar -
    Order of the Silver Star, OSS

    image
    ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard

  • rivethead23rivethead23 Wilmington, DEPosts: 41Member

    This best explains the reason I don't play mmo's anymore. I go to this website in the faint hope a new, better, yet unforgiving everquest comes out. I don't want Everquest exactly, mind you. I just don't want little to no content, speed thru levels, and quite frankly i hate raiding. I always have.. when EQ starting becoming more and more about raiding, I lost interest. Perhaps I am a product of a bygone MMO age, but I want to earn those levels, that equipment. I want to feel I accomplished something. Not that I consumed the content in a zone and moved onto the next one. 

    One of my co-workers started playing SWTOR at release and when he told me hit level cap a week or two ago I told him "That's not good". Mind you this guys only other MMO was WOW. I explained that if you cap that quickly, you're going to end up with nothing to do but some PVP zones and raids most likely. The game will quickly loose subscribers. He explained the PVP was good and the raid he did was fun. He told me just today that he was quitting at the end of his monthly subscription. When I asked why he said he had "Done everything and all there was left was PVP which we was getting bored of". Bad news.

     

  • ZippyZippy NY, NYPosts: 1,412Member

    1st of all I am shocked.  This article implies that a writer for mmorpg.com hit lvl cap in a MMO.  That has to be a 1st.  I thought you people here only wrote about games not played them.  But then again playing 1-50 in ToR is really not playing a MMO now is it?

    Blaming players who actually play the game for the lack of content is assinie.  The ones hitting the level cap in 2 days are not the problem.  The problem are the people they want easy dumbed down leveling.  Without these people we would have much slower paced and longer journey which would give companies time to develop endgame.  teh seocnd problem is ToR devoted all their money and time to voice overs and did not test their endgame.  Now people wonder why the endgame is so buggy and terrible.  Look at Rift who be tested their endgame content for 6 months prior to release and one can see that tis possible to releae  agmae with good finished endgame content.

  • PelagatoPelagato PRPosts: 643Member

    This is a bunch of crap, people complaining becaue they always complain, they dont have anything better to do other than complain, if the game is like this.. They complain...

    If the game is slow pace, then they complain because is slow and boring and grindy....

    Screw this, we live in the Complaining Age!!!!!

  • DannyGloverDannyGlover Portland, ORPosts: 1,277Member

    I agree with this article on most of its points. It is one reason I am looking forward to The Secret World. You start the game at "cap", so to speak, and cash in xp for 500+ skills. The entire game world is viable from start to finish.

    As for SWTOR, I've been playing the same character since Dec 13th and I'm currently level 39 and having a great time. Its more than just slowing down. Players and developers both need to approach themepark mmos differently. People log in and if they are not level capped, then their entire goal is to hit level cap. I'm constantly going back and visiting old areas, helping out lower level players, exploring for datacrons, crafting, running 'grey' space missions and quests. I rarely power through an area.

    It is one thing I really like about SWTOR, Ive skipped a planet's story arc and just focused on my class story on that planet. Then I'll go back later and breeze through the planet's story arc and just take in the story and scenery. Yeah I didnt get any xp, and the rewards were all vendored. But it was a nice break from some other planet I was on and more than a few times, Ive come in and saved the day for some lower level players on 4+ heroics.

    At some point in my mmo gaming career, I stopped worrying about if I'm supposed to be somewhere after a certain time, or should I be bored yet. I stopped playing games for what I wanted them to be and just took them for what they were. If that wasnt fun, I moved on. But its not hard to find things you enjoy when you take the time to actually do things that you like.

    I sit on a man's back, choking him and making him carry me, and yet assure myself and others that I am very sorry for him and wish to ease his lot by all possible means - except by getting off his back.

  • Einherjar_LCEinherjar_LC MelfiPosts: 1,055Member Common

    Originally posted by Vannor

    This is great article for us from the 'old school' mmo times, but sadly it will just fall on a majority of deaf ears these days.

    So true.

     

    Excellent thread OP.

     

    The things many of us old school MMO players enjoyed about the MMO's of old(AC, UO, EQ) would be considered too tedious by todays ADD gamers.  They can't be bothered with things like corpse runs, burden, or in the case of UO and AC, figuring out what skills work best together to have an effective character.  Cookie cutter class archetypes, the trinity, and arcade gameplay rule the day now.

     

    In AC I enjoyed things like fletching to make different types of missles for my archers to use.  I liked the old system of trial and error to learn higher level spells.  I liked having a big open world without NPC's with "!" above their head so I had to interact with and explore the world to find out what adventures there were to get in to.

     

    I have actually gone back to AC1 after my 30 days of SWTOR really drove home the point that the genre is in a serious rut.  Yeah the graphics suck, but the gameplay is unparalleled(save UO) in today's games, or any games since 2004.  As much I don't want to wish failure for Bioware, it would do the genre good IMO for that game to fail massively so that maybe developers and investors will realize that themeparks are played out.

     

    As someone earlier in the thread so eloquently put it, it's time to go backwards to move the genre forward.

     

     

    Einherjar_LC says: WTB the true successor to UO or Asheron's Call pst!

  • Einherjar_LCEinherjar_LC MelfiPosts: 1,055Member Common

    Originally posted by meesha035



    Originally posted by knapu



    Im just disapointed in the beta testers wtf did they do i would like to know ,pvp sucks unbalanced abd totally usless graphic bugs , skill lags etz i mean wtf .. this game could be rly good perhaps it will in future but by then noone will play it .





    Same story as with most of other new mmos that came out latley










     





    Unfortunately, 99% of 'beta testers' don't test / report anything.  They're in it to get a head start when the game releases or to just play the game for free for a while.



    Actually just saw these two posts and had to reply.

     

    I beta tested SWTOR.  Please don't be disappointed in us.

     

    We reported bugs, numerous suggestions were made to improve gameplay and it was all ignored by Bioware/EA.

     

    Once they announced the Dec 20 launch date, their only focus was to get the game in a functional enough condition to launch.

     

    We did our job as testers, Bioware/EA failed you.

    Einherjar_LC says: WTB the true successor to UO or Asheron's Call pst!

  • ValkaernValkaern OxfordPosts: 512Member

    Originally posted by tshack88

    Would you rather take a long ass train ride through the desert, where you might see 1 or 2 amazing sights?

    Or would you rather take a ride half that distance, but through a place where you see something that floors you at least twice as much?

    The content they make in today's game is quality, not just bullshit filler like in the old days.  If you really prefer the original EQ questing to a game like SWTOR you're batshit insane, I'm sorry.

    And I also guaranfuckingtee you will not be writing an article about this when GW2 comes out even if you level at the exact same rate as today's game.  Why?  Because it's f2p.  

    I think the point you may be missing is that for many people there was no long train ride through a desert, everything you did was part of an ongoing experience; good, bad, frustrating, satisfying, fun, funny or fantastic. There was actually a wide range of experiences to be had, a broad spectrum rather than the one dimensional, shallow experience of easy win, fast to level, zero risk linear themeparks. 

    Travelling through Nektulos forest at night for example, wasn't just runnning with zero risk to the next bland and generic quest hub, it could go any number of ways and that's why you'd find people at zone in waiting to make the run with others for safety. It was actually a lot of fun. And that's not even including any of the GM run events, which actually used to be a real thing.

    I know it's hard to imagine in the safety net linear path MMO emulator world of today (WoW and it's plethora of clones) but these zones were large, very dark, very dangerous and you had something at risk. 

    That right there alone has more of the makings of an adventure than sending me out to safely click something giant and glowing 20 feet from the menial task distrubtor in quest hub #32, and in those cases, something that actually caused the community to interact in a positive way (you know, in a way other than coming up with 'clever' remarks involving Chuck Norris, insults or jumping on the chest someone else is clearly fighting towards).

    You mention EQ questing, the irony is EQ was very, very light on guided content. However the quests they *did* have generally involved some reliance on brain power, effort, usually friends, and in the cases of epic weapons over the years, working with many other members of the community to solve quests over a period of months - *that* was something worth doing, that was an accomplishment to be proud of.

    That's another irony, those were more true to the term 'quest' than these ridiculous five minute chores involving clicking 10 cows justified by some low brow pop culture reference that some call content.

    The level of commitment & communal interaction required to see anything worth doing through to completion was something I certainly appreciated. There was actually room to set yourself apart as well - not everyone was wearing the exact same bland gear from the exact same raid token merchants (yawn). The worlds were large and varied, as were the rewards.

    And for the record, nothing in any WoW clone themepark has ever 'floored' me, it all felt like they'd taken previous games, had a pre-school teacher child proof everything and remove all the sharp edges leaving no basis for comparison. Everything was just fast and easy and after a time, tedious as there were no peaks and troughs, no variance in experiences to establish reference. 

    It's unfortunate that it sounds preachy to you, but you'll just have to accept the fact that clearly not everyone's in as much of a rush as you are to get on with it and be done with it.

    As for Guild Wars 2, it doesn't sound like they're relying on the WoW/Swtor quest hub grind as the primary means of content delivery, so I'm sure (or at least hope) they'll have a rate of advancement suitable for their world and its events. Even if it does end up being another shallow and bland fast paced sprint to max level, at least they're trying something different. I'm pleased about that, whether the game ends up appealing to me or not, it's very satisfying to see people in the industry finally saying 'You know what? This whole linear quest hub grind thing is really getting old, let's try something different'.

    And it's about time.

  • OnomicOnomic TønsbergPosts: 196Member

    I think it is wrong to blame the player for this, while some managed to max level in swtor by week 1 those was quite few in the grand scheme of things.

    Most people will use a while, think i had 2 weeks to get to 40 and those was some pretty hardcore game houres. But i did play solo for the most part  and if group content award alot more exp, this will scew my view some.

    The problem is the devs, they follow the wow formula that is now. They forget that wow had a long exp curve in the start then reduced the exp when they had content to back it up, rift and swtor failed to see this when they released.

    They thought leveling was nr1 priority and content 2nd while wow noticed this from the start.

  • StzzaStzza Thorndale, PAPosts: 31Member

    I could not agree more with this article.  I havnt played SWTOR for this very reason.  ALot of my buddies are playin it and they are all complaining about this very issue.  Getting to max level should BE the endgame of a just launched MMO.  Their should be entry level dungeons to get you ready for what will be coming up.   And if your saying getting to 60 is original WoW didnt take you long or wasnt somewhat challenging your full of shit.  Especially on a PvP server you could lose days of leveling because you were constantly fighting eachother.  Which was fucking awesome.

     

    This is the bullshit bratty new MMO crowd that wants their purples now and doesnt wanna do anything to earn it.  And of course the devs will cater to them because they represent the vast majority of the player base and their sub fees.   What a shame.

    Playing : DayZ

    Played : EVE, GW, SB, DF, AoC, WoW, WaR, L1, L2, Rift, AA, WS

    Loved: DAoC, EVE, SB, old WoW, L2, GW2, EQ1-2

  • MindTriggerMindTrigger La Quinta, CAPosts: 2,596Member

    I came to this article late, but I have been saying this for years...

    Those who are blown away wondering why people like me want more social, sandbox/hybrid games might start understanding now.  These themepark games with their carrot and stick speed-leveling style appeal to the same part of your brain that gambling does.  Things are moving fast and it feels like you are having fun, but the feeling is very short-lived and superficial.  If you never played Star Wars Galaxies and you wonder why so many of us loved that broken game, it's because despite what was missing or not working right, we still had a community and we had a freaking blast in something much more like a virtual world.  I'm not saying SWG was the best game ever made, but I am saying it was the kind of game that you lived-in, made long time friends in, adventured, made your own content, and many people played it for *years* not 1-3 months. 

    It was at least a year ago when I looked at TOR and said multiple times that this game was going to be the ultimate expression of linear themepark design, and I meant that statement as a bad thing.  It is, and it's a nightmare.  To take a lore like Star Wars and waste it on a game that only lasts for a month or two is just sad.  Bioware can add as much new content as they want, but it won't fix this game.  They need to start thinking sandbox-hybrid and social.  

    If, as the author suggested, they are happy with 3 months of player retention and then a F2P model, then let us all *PRAY* it dies quickly so someone with more vision can get the license and try again. 

    I'm not just looking at TOR here.  I'm looking at games I want to play in the future too, such as Guild Wars 2 and The Secret World.  I hope devs are paying attention here.  The gamers that came to this genre with WoW are now sick of WoW, and they are ready for something new.  I've been ready for something new for years because I know what the other side looks and plays like, and it is so much better; so much more.

    A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.

  • NagilumSadowNagilumSadow Atlanta, GAPosts: 299Member

    IMO, among the many, many problems with this "MMORPG" is the fact it is level based. Everything is overaly "cut-an-paste", and it feels like they took the worst elements from every mmo, rather than the best -- having spent too much time on the voice acting element, imo.

  • Mordred1Mordred1 BrasPosts: 77Member

    How about this: Most ppl that play mmos don't care about story, they care about gameplay.

    Those "locusts" only want to kill monsters and  other people with a light saber. Can you blame them? They don't care about what the artificial intelligence is communicating with the silly objective of trying to make them feel like a hero when they know everybody else in the game is the same and play the same story. 

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