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I think the reason ToR is retaining its popularity is that it appeals to the the RPG audiance rather

Quite frankly I had my doubts as to what would happen in month 2 . I was convinced there would be a large drop off this has thus far failed to materialise with plenty of full servers and no low ones at peak times . I think the reason for this is because it appeals to people who enjoy single player RPG games . ToR to me is a single player rpg  game with mmo elements  which is the reverse of most mmos where story takes a back seat . I think whats happened is that ToR has attracted people that dont normally play mmos . Maybe some are StarWars fans and others are fans of games like Dragon Age or Mass Effect and perhaps went into the game not expecting any different to what they have got . The trick Bioware may have pulled off is spotting a gap in the mmo market . Still you cant argue with success and the game although it maybe not what many of us wanted ( I felt this myself ) it is indeed maintaining its numbers well into month 2 . Of course to retain that long term will require updates to the story on a regular basis .  

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Comments

  • RefMinorRefMinor MyTownPosts: 3,452Member
    Another premature thread, come back in summer.
  • nerovipus32nerovipus32 dublinPosts: 2,735Member

    I found it lacking even as a single player  rpg , the story is no where near as good as mass effect or any other best selling rpg and the combat isn't as slick either. so it fails as an mmo and it also fails as an rpg imo.

    [Mod edit]

  • FlawSGIFlawSGI Woodstock, GAPosts: 1,378Member Uncommon

    Who's to say. I think I have seen a lot of the claims stating that drops would start at around the 2-3 month and not as many claiming within the first month. I woulda been the unsub before first payment myself. I think it was a little premature to claim substantial drop after first month but I also think it's premature to claim it will retain after only a month. The new car smell will wear off pretty fast, just quicker for some than others.

     

    I will say this, TOR came out at a time wher there is a lack of options for some of those starving for a decent MMO so that will probably play more into retention than appeal to the RPG audience. I personally speak with my wallet and I was lucky enough to have a friend who got sick of the game and allowed me to play on his account as long as I forked over the $15 to keep the sub going for a month. Wasn't worth the money IMO but I am now one sub they will show as retention unfortunately.

    RIP Jimmy "The Rev" Sullivan and Paul Gray.

  • gothagotha weymouth, MAPosts: 1,040Member

    Originally posted by nerovipus32

    I found it lacking even as a single rpg player, the story is no where near as good as mass effect or any other best selling rpg and the combat isn't as slick either. so it fails as an mmo and it also fails as an rpg.

    A lot of the class quests equal up.  just sucks you have to grind yourway through them

  • PyukPyuk Eugene, ORPosts: 690Member Uncommon

    How do you know it's retaining its numbers? It's only been live for a ~month.

    I make spreadsheets at work - I don't want to make them for the games I play.

  • maskedweaselmaskedweasel houston, TXPosts: 7,276Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by FlawSGI

    Who's to say. I think I have seen a lot of the claims stating that drops would start at around the 2-3 month and not as many claiming within the first month. I woulda been the unsub before first payment myself. I think it was a little premature to claim substantial drop after first month but I also think it's premature to claim it will retain after only a month. The new car smell will wear off pretty fast, just quicker for some than others.

     

    I will say this, TOR came out at a time wher there is a lack of options for some of those starving for a decent MMO so that will probably play more into retention than appeal to the RPG audience. I personally speak with my wallet and I was lucky enough to have a friend who got sick of the game and allowed me to play on his account as long as I forked over the $15 to keep the sub going for a month. Wasn't worth the money IMO but I am now one sub they will show as retention unfortunately.

    The 2 - 3 month claims happened after SWTOR showed decent retention rates after the first month.  Alot of those wishing TOR to fail said it wouldn't keep a player base after the first month... now its the 2 - 3 month mark,  and if that doesn't prove true, we'll see 6 months to a year, or when X game releases.

     

    Listen, I unsubbed too, and I like the game a lot,  I have almost every class to 50 now, and I've seen most of the stories whether it be in beta (which I played for 6 months) or in the live game.

     

    That being said,  depending on what happens,  I may resub.  I'm looking forward to KOA,  but I also just joined an amaziing guild with a lot of people I like.. so that might actually keep me around for one more month... at least.

    "Loan me a Dragon I wanna see space"


    image

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member

    Originally posted by FlawSGI

    Who's to say. I think I have seen a lot of the claims stating that drops would start at around the 2-3 month and not as many claiming within the first month.

    I've seen every number from opening day up to 3 years; depending how much they wanted to hedge the bet, or how much room they wanted to move the goalposts back later.

    Either way, waaaaay too much real emotion-bomb invested in "being right", and not nearly enough in "getting a good game".

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • FlawSGIFlawSGI Woodstock, GAPosts: 1,378Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by maskedweasel

    Originally posted by FlawSGI

    The 2 - 3 month claims happened after SWTOR showed decent retention rates after the first month.  Alot of those wishing TOR to fail said it wouldn't keep a player base after the first month... now its the 2 - 3 month mark,  and if that doesn't prove true, we'll see 6 months to a year, or when X game releases.

     

    Listen, I unsubbed too, and I like the game a lot,  I have almost every class to 50 now, and I've seen most of the stories whether it be in beta (which I played for 6 months) or in the live game.

     

    That being said,  depending on what happens,  I may resub.  I'm looking forward to KOA,  but I also just joined an amaziing guild with a lot of people I like.. so that might actually keep me around for one more month... at least.

     Nah I didn't see these 2-3 month claims happening after the first sub money went through. I was hearing that before and right after the game came out and the first wave of hate came across the boards with everyone and their mothers putting out their reviews. I haven't seen many discuss the expectations on retention after the 20th and the fees and numbers went through for the first month. The point is I think it's to early to say.

    RIP Jimmy "The Rev" Sullivan and Paul Gray.

  • moosecatlolmoosecatlol Boring, TXPosts: 1,171Member Uncommon

    That or it's Star Wars, after all anything with the Star Wars name a Star Wars fan will buy. Doesn't matter who they damn or any of the consequences that might ensue.

  • ooblaoobla londonPosts: 87Member

    Originally posted by RefMinor

    Another premature thread, come back in summer.

    Take another look ats what actuallly said in the opening statement then maybe you'll see I hinted it would be difficult to sustain long term . Another person prematurly commenting on something rather than absorbing whats actually there . I would watch that if you dont want to have a carear serving at Mac Donalds .

  • moosecatlolmoosecatlol Boring, TXPosts: 1,171Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by oobla

    Originally posted by RefMinor

    Another premature thread, come back in summer.

    Take another look ats what actuallly said in the opening statement then maybe you'll see I hinted it would be difficult to sustain long term . Another person prematurly commenting on something rather than absorbing whats actually there . I would watch that if you dont want to have a carear serving at Mac Donalds .

    Does the son of Donald rule over a kingdom? IS THE KINGDOM AWESOME? WHERE DO I SIGN UP!?

  • XthosXthos Columbus, OHPosts: 2,628Member

    Well, I have been ripping on the game, and I am still subbed, but I see that coming to an end soon, trying to give it more time, but what they plan to make it better is the same stuff that I don't like too well to begin with...Was hoping they would come up with something more innovative than we made another flashpoint or another daily quest....

    Well, that and TSW or GW2 are not out yet, but its getting to the point of id rather not play a mmo atm, than play it...Was hoping at the worst it would be fun till the previous mentioned games came out...

    Think swtor may be on the path to beating Rift as the shortest I have ever played a mmo that I bought.

    Pretty sad, considering that I on average played mmos for 2-3 years atleast, with some up to 7 or so (none named wow).

    Also, to touch on the title of the thread, I think the rpg single story and mmo mashing dilutes both and makes them both innefective....The story doesn't matter, and the massive multiplayer is a joke....

     

  • RobsolfRobsolf Grand Rapids, MIPosts: 4,246Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by maskedweasel

     

    The 2 - 3 month claims happened after SWTOR showed decent retention rates after the first month.  Alot of those wishing TOR to fail said it wouldn't keep a player base after the first month... now its the 2 - 3 month mark,  and if that doesn't prove true, we'll see 6 months to a year, or when X game releases.

     

    Yep.  You don't have to look too far back in the threads to find the great prognosticators that claimed the game would be dead by the 21st.  Some were more reasonable, saying 3-6 months, which I do think is a fair time to judge.  But there were certainly many posting here that were pretty certain that few players would actually pick up a paying sub.

    But there really is no time limit for those folks.  When Rift hit the 6 month mark, they were either moving the goalposts yet again, or defying reality claiming the servers were dead.

    It still amazes me how some people can be so razor focused and committed to hoping a game they don't like, fails.

  • Loke666Loke666 MalmöPosts: 17,949Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by oobla

    Quite frankly I had my doubts as to what would happen in month 2 . I was convinced there would be a large drop off this has thus far failed to materialise with plenty of full servers and no low ones at peak times . I think the reason for this is because it appeals to people who enjoy single player RPG games . ToR to me is a single player rpg  game with mmo elements  which is the reverse of most mmos where story takes a back seat . I think whats happened is that ToR has attracted people that dont normally play mmos . Maybe some are StarWars fans and others are fans of games like Dragon Age or Mass Effect and perhaps went into the game not expecting any different to what they have got . The trick Bioware may have pulled off is spotting a gap in the mmo market . Still you cant argue with success and the game although it maybe not what many of us wanted ( I felt this myself ) it is indeed maintaining its numbers well into month 2 . Of course to retain that long term will require updates to the story on a regular basis .  

    Lets discuss this in a few months instead, you might be right but it is a bit premature right now.

    WAR did well the second month as well, it was month 3 the exodus really started. Not that I mean tht this will happen to TOR but it is still a possibility.

  • KaocanKaocan Atlanta, GAPosts: 1,270Member

    Simple explination to the OPs thought. MMORPG - six letters, MMO RPG - all there at once. The problem isnt that SWTOR is just RPG, its that so many of the currect MMORPG games on the market are almost all MMO with very little RPG in them. They made this game a real MMORPG and not just another MMOG like all the rest.

    It is not a single player RPG, just so many people completely forgot what a real MMORPG is supposed to be like, that they can't figure out how to play it with all that story in it. An MMORPG includes it all, if it doesn't it isnt one. Oh and before everyone goes nuts, there is plenty of MMO in SWTOR too, if you dont see it, it just means you dont know how play well with others. Sorry, I know, it doesn't FORCE people to come together with you like other games do, it gives you the option and the ability, you have to go get it on your own.

    (DISCLAIMER - The use of the word YOU in the above post is not directed at any one person in particular, but towards those who fall into the category itself - there is no personal attack here, neither intentional nor implied.)

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by Robsolf

    Originally posted by maskedweasel

     
    The 2 - 3 month claims happened after SWTOR showed decent retention rates after the first month.  Alot of those wishing TOR to fail said it wouldn't keep a player base after the first month... now its the 2 - 3 month mark,  and if that doesn't prove true, we'll see 6 months to a year, or when X game releases.
     


    Yep.  You don't have to look too far back in the threads to find the great prognosticators that claimed the game would be dead by the 21st.  Some were more reasonable, saying 3-6 months, which I do think is a fair time to judge.  But there were certainly many posting here that were pretty certain that few players would actually pick up a paying sub.
    But there really is no time limit for those folks.  When Rift hit the 6 month mark, they were either moving the goalposts yet again, or defying reality claiming the servers were dead.
    It still amazes me how some people can be so razor focused and committed to hoping a game they don't like, fails.



    I'm not amazed so much anymore. It's S.O.P. I think. I also think that BioWare will need to release more story content for end game players. Well, I should say I want them to release more story content for end game players. It suppose it possible that a third game could have the same Raid/So-So PvP/? end game but it seems like we're reaching a saturation point with that stuff.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 19,981Member Uncommon
    I was just wondering where the evidence was confirming subscription retention? Anecodal evidence seems to point otherwise.

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
    "I don't have one life, I have many lives" - Grunty
    Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member

    Originally posted by lizardbones



    I'm not amazed so much anymore. It's S.O.P. I think.

    Which goes a long way toward explaining why no game has "succeeded" in more than seven years.

    Will it continue?  Sooner or later, sanity must return?  Right?

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • KareliaKarelia HeraklionPosts: 668Member

    If you check XFIRE numbers, you will see that the drop is 27-30% for total players (i m speaking always only for xfire users) and 50% for minutes played per day, which i think is not small, if you consider its only the first month.

    I dont say that XFIRE is something that mirrors the whole player base of a game, but its a good sample.

  • CavodCavod Brookfield, WIPosts: 295Member

    So it's okay to claim failure before beta, during beta, before release, after release, a month after release...





    Yet it's 'premature' for OP to state his observations and opinion.  Pure hypocrisy.





    While I'm in the camp of "wait till the 4 month mark"(free month + 3months of subs) I simply can't stand the double standards, flawed logic and inconsistencies people spin around here to help them cope with the idea that a game they don't like might do well.





    I think the OP has a valid topic to bring up that there wasn't a huge drop off after the first month like so many predicted.  Just because YOU didn't personally predict it doesn't mean anything in relation to this thread nor does it mean he was calling you out. 

     

    Exceptions to the rule, strawman and derailment all over this thread.  Not a single thread in this forum can be made without those things being forced into it.

     

    We really need separate forums for every newly launched game. There can be the anti-<MMO> one and there can be the 'what general discussion should be' one. All the lamenting can happen together where each can find solace in like minded can't-move-on-ers leaving the rest of us to actually move forward and discuss meaningful and relevant topics.

  • cscurlockcscurlock Philadelphia, PAPosts: 38Member

    I'd suspect around 250lk overall subs in March.  Should give them 3.75 mil a month to work with.  How much are they paying their development staff?  Currently theres probably like 3k per server(thats generous I know).   215 servers. 645k subs atm.  2 Mil sales at launch.  You get the picture.

    The bean counters at EA are pretty good when it comes to seeing the future.  LIke warhammer when you start seeing layoffs and a new lead is coming in to take over.  Thats the big red flag.

  • SorrowSorrow St Pete, FLPosts: 1,195Member

    Don't know what game you are playing but the swtor I was playing was already dead last week when I canceled.

     

    Granted EA and bioware are lying about it and using a dishonest misleading advertising campaign " these gameplay  images are not represenitive of all actual gameplay " to try and cover their failure, but the financials, empty servers that are actually claiming they are heavy, and 2 hour queues for warfronts on heavy servers are pretty good indicators that the game is dead and the coverup is underway.

     

    But hey keep throwing good money after bad you are helping pay for ME 4 development cost : )

    image

  • Creslin321Creslin321 Baltimore, MDPosts: 5,359Member

    Originally posted by Kaocan

    Simple explination to the OPs thought. MMORPG - six letters, MMO RPG - all there at once. The problem isnt that SWTOR is just RPG, its that so many of the currect MMORPG games on the market are almost all MMO with very little RPG in them. They made this game a real MMORPG and not just another MMOG like all the rest.

    It is not a single player RPG, just so many people completely forgot what a real MMORPG is supposed to be like, that they can't figure out how to play it with all that story in it. An MMORPG includes it all, if it doesn't it isnt one. Oh and before everyone goes nuts, there is plenty of MMO in SWTOR too, if you dont see it, it just means you dont know how play well with others. Sorry, I know, it doesn't FORCE people to come together with you like other games do, it gives you the option and the ability, you have to go get it on your own.

    Despite the Bioware and ANet party line that you need a focus on story to be an RPG...I just don't think this is true.  RPG is a VERY broad category that encompasses a lot of things.

    For example, older western RPGs like Ultima and Might and Magic focused FAR more on open-world and freedom than they did on story.  I do not consider them to be "less" of an RPG because of this.  And on the flip side, I don't consider JRPGs that are almost ALL linear storyline to be "more" of an RPG.

    "Story-driven" RPG is just a kind of RPG game.  It's no more of an RPG, than an RPG that emphasizes the open-world and freedom more.

    Acting like you can't be an RPG without a huge focus on story makes it seem like it's objectively better to have a huge focus on story.  And really, I just think it's a point of preference.

    Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  • KaocanKaocan Atlanta, GAPosts: 1,270Member

    Originally posted by Creslin321

    Originally posted by Kaocan

    Simple explination to the OPs thought. MMORPG - six letters, MMO RPG - all there at once. The problem isnt that SWTOR is just RPG, its that so many of the currect MMORPG games on the market are almost all MMO with very little RPG in them. They made this game a real MMORPG and not just another MMOG like all the rest.

    It is not a single player RPG, just so many people completely forgot what a real MMORPG is supposed to be like, that they can't figure out how to play it with all that story in it. An MMORPG includes it all, if it doesn't it isnt one. Oh and before everyone goes nuts, there is plenty of MMO in SWTOR too, if you dont see it, it just means you dont know how play well with others. Sorry, I know, it doesn't FORCE people to come together with you like other games do, it gives you the option and the ability, you have to go get it on your own.

    Despite the Bioware and ANet party line that you need a focus on story to be an RPG...I just don't think this is true.  RPG is a VERY broad category that encompasses a lot of things.

    For example, older western RPGs like Ultima and Might and Magic focused FAR more on open-world and freedom than they did on story.  I do not consider them to be "less" of an RPG because of this.  And on the flip side, I don't consider JRPGs that are almost ALL linear storyline to be "more" of an RPG.

    "Story-driven" RPG is just a kind of RPG game.  It's no more of an RPG, than an RPG that emphasizes the open-world and freedom more.

    Acting like you can't be an RPG without a huge focus on story makes it seem like it's objectively better to have a huge focus on story.  And really, I just think it's a point of preference.

    I agree to an extent, my point wasn't that SWTOR was so much MORE of an RPG than others, but that there are a majority that are so much LESS. How many of the current flock of games we have out there right now focus on the journey, the role playing aspect of the game compared to the ones that focus on the mechanics.

    At some point along the run in this genre it became exceptable to consider doing the same thing over and over (called a daily) as the norm. Tell me how this is progression in a story line? How many books have you read where they just randomly repeat the first 5 chapters over and over again. Not a story anymore at that point. Nor does it mean role playing to stand on the same street in a town for nearly all of your adult life (cross server dungeon finder comes to mind). Where is the roleplay factor behind this one? 'I have been to every dungeon in this game, at least five times now.' And when you ask them where in the world they are each found you get a blank stare and silence.

    Granted, UO and Might and Magic were bred off the PnP tabletop RPG theory, the MUDs, MOOs, and MUSHs. And even as sandbox games, with open worlds, your character was still driven by progressing the story of the RPG. Todays games, do you honestly think that is still true? Honestly? They aren' driven by the achievement system, the vanity pets, the titles, the next tier of gear? Sure SWTOR has some of these things in it, but the game progressing is based on the story more than the material rewards of the other games we have out there now.

    That was my point, not to cut down the MMORPG games of the past which were in fact MMORPG games, but to point out that we have lost our RPG factor on so many of the games out which claim to be what they are not, MMORPGs.

    (DISCLAIMER - The use of the word YOU in the above post is not directed at any one person in particular, but towards those who fall into the category itself - there is no personal attack here, neither intentional nor implied.)

  • RobsolfRobsolf Grand Rapids, MIPosts: 4,246Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by papardelios

    If you check XFIRE numbers, you will see that the drop is 27-30% for total players (i m speaking always only for xfire users) and 50% for minutes played per day, which i think is not small, if you consider its only the first month.

    I dont say that XFIRE is something that mirrors the whole player base of a game, but its a good sample.

    I don't know about you, but no game I've ever played has kept me playing, after a month, as long as I did when it launched, or even NEARLY as much.

    After about a month or so, you're going stop playing every free minute and it will become much less of a devourer of your free time.

    I still love the game, still have plenty of content to run, and I've easily cut my playtime in half.  My play schedule at launch was simply unsustainable.

    On the number of players, you can't take meaning from Xfire regarding that.  Again, a person who played every day at launch will eventually chill down to a more reasonable schedule.  And so they'll count as "less than one person" in Xfire.

    In other words, yes, indeed that's pretty small.

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