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TERA: En Masse Responds to NCSoft Lawsuit

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  • Sector13Sector13 New Providence, PAPosts: 687Member

    Originally posted by Vhaln

    Originally posted by Sector13


    Originally posted by Letyson



    Sure if it's possible to steal your own work, then I guess they stole it...

    I know they were under NCsoft payment, but these type of legal questions are so stupid since they can't really unlearn their own vision for a new project. Sure they lost the case in Korea, but they basically payed NCsoft a large amount of money, so there shouldn't be a problem.. NCsoft are just being D's now for doing this close to launch.

    Obviously you need to read what happened. BHS and EME are in the wrong here. Simple as that.

     

    Did you read the actual legal document?  It doesn't even say anything about code.  What they're being accused of stealing is more conceptual.. and that's ridiculous.

    Did you read the fact that they already lost the court battle in SK? Doesn't matter what you think is ridiculous or not. Simple facts are simple. They know what they did was wrong, did it anyway, lost the court case and kept going with it anyway. Don't blame NCsoft, blame BHS and EME for it. They knew, they didn't care.

  • VhalnVhaln Chicago, ILPosts: 3,159Member

    Originally posted by Sector13

    Originally posted by Vhaln

     

    Did you read the actual legal document?  It doesn't even say anything about code.  What they're being accused of stealing is more conceptual.. and that's ridiculous.

    Did you read the fact that they already lost the court battle in SK? Doesn't matter what you think is ridiculous or not. Simple facts are simple. They know what they did was wrong, did it anyway, lost the court case and kept going with it anyway. Don't blame NCsoft, blame BHS and EME for it. They knew, they didn't care.

     

    Ok, I'll take back the opinion about it being ridiculous, but why so riled up about it?  You seem awfully aggressive about your stance, there...

     

    When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.

  • LetysonLetyson LystrupPosts: 13Member

    Originally posted by Vhaln

    Did you read the actual legal document?  It doesn't even say anything about code.  What they're being accused of stealing is more conceptual.. and that's ridiculous.

     


     

    Yeah I read it. The parts with the 7 races, the map, combat system and political system. I don't know if those documents really have a saying, like I've seen MMO's that have features like that already. Those documents is like seeing some ideas for a game that should have been released 5 years ago.

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member

    Originally posted by Letyson

    Sure if it's possible to steal your own work, then I guess they stole it...

    Yus, it is.  But if you're prone to doing so, you're better off not signing that contract.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • GorillaGorilla Posts: 2,202Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Vhaln

    Originally posted by Sector13


    Originally posted by Vhaln

     

    Did you read the actual legal document?  It doesn't even say anything about code.  What they're being accused of stealing is more conceptual.. and that's ridiculous.

    Did you read the fact that they already lost the court battle in SK? Doesn't matter what you think is ridiculous or not. Simple facts are simple. They know what they did was wrong, did it anyway, lost the court case and kept going with it anyway. Don't blame NCsoft, blame BHS and EME for it. They knew, they didn't care.

     

    Ok, I'll take back the opinion about it being ridiculous, but why so riled up about it?  You seem awfully aggressive about your stance, there...

     

    Because they are criminals? It would seem that this was planned and executed whilst they work working at NCsoft.

  • WhiteLanternWhiteLantern Nevada, MOPosts: 2,732Member

    Originally posted by Icewhite

    Originally posted by Letyson

    Sure if it's possible to steal your own work, then I guess they stole it...

    Yus, it is.  But if you're prone to doing so, you're better off not signing that contract.

    Exactly. As I've said before, I work in a factory. I'm nobody special, just an hourly schmoe. But I had to sign a contract when I started here that says I can't work for my employer's competition for 7 years after I leave this place IN ANY CAPACITY. Not because I create stuff, but because I might have seen how stuff we have created is made.

     

    And that's just to cover all bases. US trademark and copyright laws are strict. It's possible that, even if these guys didn't sign a contract, they could be found guilty here as well. WIth a contract, it's trademark infringement. Without one, it could be espionage if the lawyers handle it in a certain way.

     

    I do have to wonder, though, if US courts have jurisdiction if Blue Hole chooses not to operate on American soil and instead opens English servers in Korea? Our courts aren't exactly known for their understanding of the 21st century digital age.

    I want a mmorpg where people have gone through misery, have gone through school stuff and actually have had sex even. -sagil

  • VhalnVhaln Chicago, ILPosts: 3,159Member

    Originally posted by Gorilla

    Originally posted by Vhaln


    Originally posted by Sector13


    Originally posted by Vhaln

     

    Did you read the actual legal document?  It doesn't even say anything about code.  What they're being accused of stealing is more conceptual.. and that's ridiculous.

    Did you read the fact that they already lost the court battle in SK? Doesn't matter what you think is ridiculous or not. Simple facts are simple. They know what they did was wrong, did it anyway, lost the court case and kept going with it anyway. Don't blame NCsoft, blame BHS and EME for it. They knew, they didn't care.

    Ok, I'll take back the opinion about it being ridiculous, but why so riled up about it?  You seem awfully aggressive about your stance, there...

    Because they are criminals? It would seem that this was planned and executed whilst they work working at NCsoft.

     

    Are you sure?  Just because that's how NCSoft chose to spin the situation?  I haven't seen anything resembling evidence of that, or even specifics as to what they stole.  Just a document that comes off more like vindictive hyperbole than anything else.

    When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,453Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Letyson

    Yes I know that, but that doesn't mean I actually agree on it.

    Coding  and ideas are like craftsmanship, no matter how much you restrict yourself will you keep finding small similarities here and there. I know that BHS and EME have a bad case here, and I know that through court procedures NCsoft have all the right to claim their stuff since they were paying the people and they were under contract.

    I just feel like this could hurt us who are waiting for Tera, just because NCsoft wants to be "right" D:

    Oh I know full well about craftsmanship and creating. I'm a composer.

    Now the thing is, if I create something for someone I make sure that it's something that I'm "ok" with giving away.

    If someone asks me to write them a piece I'm not going to write them something that I will later use in something else.

    What these creators are asked to do is to brainstorm and use their experience to create assets for their employer. That's their job.

    Anything they create they need to be comfortable parting with it. If for some reason they come up with amazing ideas that they don't want NC to have they need to leave the company and depending on their non-compete agreement, proceed in a way that is lawful.

    The point is, if you want to be a professional you have to act like a professional. Because one can act however one wants but after a while that will come back to bite you in the butt.

    If one doesn't like the terms of a contract then don't sign it. It's as simple as that.

  • Dren_UtogiDren_Utogi OuterSpacePosts: 1,709Member Uncommon

    Tera will never release if what NcSoft is claiming ios true. Bluehole very well could be going to prison for theft.

     

    Apparently Bluehole employees where former NcSoft Employees who where working on Lineage 3.  They basically quit NcSoft, took the material of Lineage 2 , some software and other NcSoft property to start up Bluehole. EnMasse are idiots for not checking the complete timeline and start up of Bluehole  , and now they to could be liable.

    reviews are !@#$ing stupid. Play what you love.

  • Kuro1nKuro1n GothenburgPosts: 771Member

    I find it funny with all experts here at MMORPG.com talking about what contract they broke etc without actually have read the contracts themselves... just saying.

  • Sector13Sector13 New Providence, PAPosts: 687Member

    Originally posted by I_Return

    Tera will never release if what NcSoft is claiming ios true. Bluehole very well could be going to prison for theft.

     

    Apparently Bluehole employees where former NcSoft Employees who where working on Lineage 3.  They basically quit NcSoft, took the material of Lineage 2 , some software and other NcSoft property to start up Bluehole. EnMasse are idiots for not checking the complete timeline and start up of Bluehole  , and now they to could be liable.


     

    EME is made up of former NCsoft/NCwest employees. They knew what they were doing.

  • GorillaGorilla Posts: 2,202Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Vhaln

    Originally posted by Gorilla


    Originally posted by Vhaln


    Originally posted by Sector13


    Originally posted by Vhaln

     

    Did you read the actual legal document?  It doesn't even say anything about code.  What they're being accused of stealing is more conceptual.. and that's ridiculous.

    Did you read the fact that they already lost the court battle in SK? Doesn't matter what you think is ridiculous or not. Simple facts are simple. They know what they did was wrong, did it anyway, lost the court case and kept going with it anyway. Don't blame NCsoft, blame BHS and EME for it. They knew, they didn't care.

    Ok, I'll take back the opinion about it being ridiculous, but why so riled up about it?  You seem awfully aggressive about your stance, there...

    Because they are criminals? It would seem that this was planned and executed whilst they work working at NCsoft.

     

    Are you sure?  Just because that's how NCSoft chose to spin the situation?  I haven't seen anything resembling evidence of that, or even specifics as to what they stole.  Just a document that comes off more like vindictive hyperbole than anything else.

    Not completely sure. Technically they are 'convicted criminals' they have also lost an appeal. The way I read it the damages where somewhat mitigated but they where found guilty (again).  Apparently (according to one of the articles, I only read the US documents not the Korean ones) they where having clandestine meetings in the board room to poach other employees too. Presumably some blew the whistle on them.

  • WhiteLanternWhiteLantern Nevada, MOPosts: 2,732Member

    Originally posted by Kuro1n

    I find it funny with all experts here at MMORPG.com talking about what contract they broke etc without actually have read the contracts themselves... just saying.

    You're right, we haven't seen any contract. But we do know some things, such as the Korean court system initially siding with NCSoft both civilly and criminally. Non-compete agreements are standard practice, if NCSoft chose not have thier employees sign one, that is their problem, but there are still trademark laws that will cover parts of that oversight.

     

    We're not experts. We're just educated.

    I want a mmorpg where people have gone through misery, have gone through school stuff and actually have had sex even. -sagil

  • MMOGamer71MMOGamer71 Pittsburgh, PAPosts: 1,930Member Common

    Originally posted by Kuro1n

    I find it funny with all experts here at MMORPG.com talking about what contract they broke etc without actually have read the contracts themselves... just saying.

    But we all stayed in a Holiday Inn Express last night image

  • GorillaGorilla Posts: 2,202Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Kuro1n

    I find it funny with all experts here at MMORPG.com talking about what contract they broke etc without actually have read the contracts themselves... just saying.

    No need. A Korean court did that, found them guilty and sentenced them to prison.

  • ThachsanhThachsanh Fayetteville, ARPosts: 331Member

    Originally posted by Vhaln

    Originally posted by Gorilla


    Originally posted by Vhaln


    Originally posted by Sector13


    Originally posted by Vhaln

     

    Did you read the actual legal document?  It doesn't even say anything about code.  What they're being accused of stealing is more conceptual.. and that's ridiculous.

    Did you read the fact that they already lost the court battle in SK? Doesn't matter what you think is ridiculous or not. Simple facts are simple. They know what they did was wrong, did it anyway, lost the court case and kept going with it anyway. Don't blame NCsoft, blame BHS and EME for it. They knew, they didn't care.

    Ok, I'll take back the opinion about it being ridiculous, but why so riled up about it?  You seem awfully aggressive about your stance, there...

    Because they are criminals? It would seem that this was planned and executed whilst they work working at NCsoft.

     

    Are you sure?  Just because that's how NCSoft chose to spin the situation?  I haven't seen anything resembling evidence of that, or even specifics as to what they stole.  Just a document that comes off more like vindictive hyperbole than anything else.

    Actually, if you read the complain they filed, it stated that the Korean police the a list of file that they were taken from NCSoft offices using portable storage devices. They even have a BHS internal memo instructing how to deal with those assets. They have ex-NCSoft developers now work for BHS admitted to the police that they stole stuffs from NCSoft.

    And BHS lost the criminal court twice already. BHS founder is in jail. Heh, what more do you need?

    There's no doubt that BHS stole a lot from Lineage 3 project. But that will be resolved in criminal case.

    What interested me is how can NCSoft prove to the US court that TERA is using Lineage 3 project assets. It's not easy to do so. That's why the fight is still going on in Korea. We will see how it goes in the US though.

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,453Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Kuro1n

    I find it funny with all experts here at MMORPG.com talking about what contract they broke etc without actually have read the contracts themselves... just saying.

    No, and I dont' believe anyone is creating line by line reasons why any particular articles have been broken.

    But people who have worked for companies that do require non-compete agreements or require you to fill out forms with all of your former patents/publicatons are just giving their experiences with this type of stuff. Naturally, this stuff is different from country to county.

    So, by all means, if you have actual experience with similar agreements then feel free to add to the conversation.

  • DSWBeefDSWBeef phoenix, AZPosts: 791Member

    Im not looking forward to TERA or GW2 but it sounds like NCSoft is striking at them because they fear tera will cobble upplayers before GW2 will. Its a low blow IMO.

    Playing: War Thunder, World of Warcraft, and Grim Dawn
    Waiting on:Everquest Next and The Black Desert

  • OnomicOnomic TønsbergPosts: 196Member

    Originally posted by Sector13 

    EME is made up of former NCsoft/NCwest employees. They knew what they were doing.

    Goddamn it, NCwest is the most useless company i ever had to deal with. The way they handle stuff managed to piss me off when i playd l2 and when i playd Aion.

    I remeber when i playd aion and if you asked about something specific you got the answear soon, that was all those useless twats managed to give out, every post had the word soon or in the future. wtf i could already guess soon or in the future myself.

    I suddenly lost the will to play Tera but i think the combat will lure me in if only for a brief time

  • GanatharGanathar MelbournePosts: 143Member

    Guys stop posting BS if you haven't read the lawsuit.

    The lawsuit doesn't mention much about the Lineage 3 code being used by TERA, it tries to make them look guilty for using similar concepts to those of Lineage 3.

    Even if it did mention something about the stolen code being used to make TERA  it would be irrelevant because NCsoft can't prove that.

    The former leaders of project Lineage 3 where found guilty because they stole the code and apparently intended to sell it but it was never proven in court that the code was used to make TERA. This is why TERA is still standing in Korea.

  • Kuro1nKuro1n GothenburgPosts: 771Member

    Originally posted by Ganathar

    Guys stop posting BS if you haven't read the lawsuit.

    The lawsuit doesn't mention much about the Lineage 3 code being used by TERA, it tries to make them look guilty for using similar concepts to those of Lineage 3.

    Even if it did mention something about the stolen code being used to make TERA  it would be irrelevant because NCsoft can't prove that.

    The former leaders of project Lineage 3 where found guilty because they stole the code and apparently intended to sell it but it was never proven in court that the code was used to make TERA. This is why TERA is still standing in Korea.

    Seems someone actually is updated. )

    Also afaik just one person got sentenced to 1.5year of prison.

  • LetysonLetyson LystrupPosts: 13Member

    Originally posted by Sovrath

    Oh I know full well about craftsmanship and creating. I'm a composer.

    Now the thing is, if I create something for someone I make sure that it's something that I'm "ok" with giving away.

    If someone asks me to write them a piece I'm not going to write them something that I will later use in something else.

    What these creators are asked to do is to brainstorm and use their experience to create assets for their employer. That's their job.

    Anything they create they need to be comfortable parting with it. If for some reason they come up with amazing ideas that they don't want NC to have they need to leave the company and depending on their non-compete agreement, proceed in a way that is lawful.

    The point is, if you want to be a professional you have to act like a professional. Because one can act however one wants but after a while that will come back to bite you in the butt.

    If one doesn't like the terms of a contract then don't sign it. It's as simple as that.


     

    What if you were under a company making music, and you had signed a contract with them, and you just made some of your greastest work of life, but the company wanted to take your music in another dirrection, would you be fine with that? Even when you had strong connection to that project.

    We don't know what actually were written in their contract when they were under NCsoft, but I would be surprised that a contract would be very one-sided and not take the creative work of their people under consideration.

  • tyrannistyrannis Norcross, GAPosts: 198Member

    Originally posted by nyxium

    Only a duel to the death by pistols at dawn can truly resolve this situation. It is demanded.


     

    Ncsoft would lose because the casting animation would take 5 secs and they would be rooted while casting. TERA wins.

    ##Best SWTOR of 2011
    Posted by I_Return - SWTOR - "Forget the UI the characters and all ofhe nitpicking bullshit" "Greatest MMO Ever Created"

    ##Fail Thread Title of 2011
    Originally posted by daveospice
    "this game looks like crap?"

  • gaeanprayergaeanprayer Somewhere Out There, PAPosts: 2,320Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Kuro1n

    Originally posted by Ganathar

    Guys stop posting BS if you haven't read the lawsuit.

    The lawsuit doesn't mention much about the Lineage 3 code being used by TERA, it tries to make them look guilty for using similar concepts to those of Lineage 3.

    Even if it did mention something about the stolen code being used to make TERA  it would be irrelevant because NCsoft can't prove that.

    The former leaders of project Lineage 3 where found guilty because they stole the code and apparently intended to sell it but it was never proven in court that the code was used to make TERA. This is why TERA is still standing in Korea.

    Seems someone actually is updated. )

    Also afaik just one person got sentenced to 1.5year of prison.

    Actually, some of us have read the lawsuit, so I don't know where either of you are getting your information, the documents spell everything out very clearly. Below is where they say not only concepts were stolen, but software, hardware, and proprietary data. It's also pointed out that, when confronted by authorities, BH admitted to the theft and tried to hide it and cover their tracks by wiping the computers, a crime on its own but it also shows they knew full well what they were doing.

    What actually happened with the first case:

    What BH admitted to:

     

    As to what NCSoft is able to prove, that's not something any of us would know for sure unless we were part of the case. However, considering several were convicted - even if all of them didn't end up in jail - I'd say they're able to prove plenty.

     

    EDIT: Links fixed, my bad.

    "Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."

  • GanatharGanathar MelbournePosts: 143Member

    Originally posted by gaeanprayer

    Originally posted by Kuro1n


    Originally posted by Ganathar

    Guys stop posting BS if you haven't read the lawsuit.

    The lawsuit doesn't mention much about the Lineage 3 code being used by TERA, it tries to make them look guilty for using similar concepts to those of Lineage 3.

    Even if it did mention something about the stolen code being used to make TERA  it would be irrelevant because NCsoft can't prove that.

    The former leaders of project Lineage 3 where found guilty because they stole the code and apparently intended to sell it but it was never proven in court that the code was used to make TERA. This is why TERA is still standing in Korea.

    Seems someone actually is updated. )

    Also afaik just one person got sentenced to 1.5year of prison.

    Actually, some of us have read the lawsuit, so I don't know where either of you are getting your information, the documents spell everything out very clearly. Below is where they say not only concepts were stolen, but software, hardware, and proprietary data. It's also pointed out that, when confronted by authorities, BH admitted to the theft and tried to hide it and cover their tracks by wiping the computers, a crime on its own but it also shows they knew full well what they were doing.

    What actually happened with the first case:

    What BH admitted to:

     

    As to what NCSoft is able to prove, that's not something any of us would know for sure unless we were part of the case. However, considering several were convicted - even if all of them didn't end up in jail - I'd say they're able to prove plenty.

    Read my post again, I actually said that they stole Lineage 3 data :P

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