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Slow leveling = Grind.
Grind is boring.
These are generalities, and of course some people like grind.
But can someone explain to me how a game can have slow leveling and not be grindy and boring?
Generally I can only survive the grind by grouping with other people for fun.
I have done crafting in DAOC (mind numbing boredom but you could make sellable items)
I have leveled a character in DAOC back in the day (Mind numbing grind), and that was just to level 50, no real realm rank or trials of atlantis done at all.
I have fled from Lineage 2 back in the day from the uber mind numbing grind.
I also thought the leveling process was a little too fast. My solution has been to stick only to flashpoints and class quests...between a main and a single alt, I have yet to reach level cap, having played since launch. While im not a full time hardcore player, i play more a bit more than the average casual i'd say. The game is a lot of fun despite some of the drawbacks. However there are always drawbacks to mmos when they first come out, thats what player feedback and the patching process is for.
Still having lots of fun with this game. And I promise, solemnly, that if i stop I will simply cancel my sub and not act as If i have been robbed of something. Seriously people...when you sit down to play a video game, you officially begin "wasting time"... there are plenty more games to play. Not to mention reality, which is frequently more important than many gamers would like to admit.
I will sadly say i have quit this game to. It`s just not for me, it was fun for a little*like most theme parks* i just don`t like they way it is headed.
Which FF Character Are You?
Originally posted by Fadedbomb Originally posted by Distopia Originally posted by Zekiah That's what you get when a MMO company spends a majority of their investment in one-time content, ie video cut scenes and VOs. Now everyone knows what to look for so can we please not support these half-a** projects anymore? It's time us gamers put our wallets away and support gaming companies who cater to us, not their bank accounts via box sales.
It's time for those who feel that way to do that yes, problem is you're making it sound as though everyone should feel this way.
Everyone should feel this way that's on this forum. Obviously you're NOT playing SWTOR, or you're waiting for GW2.
That being said, what do you think would have happened had Bioware invested the majority of its investment into a dynamic & seemless world coupled with reactive content, a skill tree based system WITHOUT levels, an open world economy crafting system similar to SWG, item decay, NO pvp-player looting, open faction pvping as soon as you get out of the starter world, and a 3 faction system?
Definitely better than this pile of trash people were told was "amazingly better than their previous competition".
No, as SW:tor has done better in its first month then SWG ever did at any time. had Bioware done as you asked they would have made a game that would have died wimpering even as SWG was pre or post NGE.
Some (Vets?) need to get over the fact SW:Tor was never advertised to be SWG 2.0 why after being told over and over certain players still don't seem to understand it was never aiming to be SWG 2.0 insist that it should be
Originally posted by punkrock I will sadly say i have quit this game to. It`s just not for me, it was fun for a little*like most theme parks* i just don`t like they way it is headed.
I was not expecting it
But well, after darthpony quit I dont get surprised anymore
"It has potential"-Second most used phrase on existence"It sucks"-Most used phrase on existence
Originally posted by spinner_vis dump any and all leveling. give characters everything they need at startup, then let players play the game however they want.
Building your whole game on disposable content (aka story) and then crying that the players are unwilling to keep paying the sub once they burn through it is... ridiculous? misguided? sad?
The whole leveling+endgame thing is a blight on the mmorpg genre. There should be just the game and that's it.
I personally have never found really long level treadmills to be entertaining. If it takes too long to progress in a game, it simply isn't worth it to me. I don't have an endless amount of free time to spend on video games like I did when I was a teenager. As a result, I welcome the faster level treadmill found in games such as SWTOR or WoW. I will actually invest the time to level up in them because I can play for an hour or two each night and still feel like I'm accomplishing something. The long grinds found in older games was one of the reasons that those MMOs never attained mass-market appeal. There are a lot of people simply unwilling to invest the kind of time necessary to succeed in them.
In my opinion, developers need to focus more on what happens at end-game rather than making it take a lot longer to level. Raids and instanced battlegrounds aren't enough if you ask me. Eng-game seems like it would be the perfect time to implement some sandbox-like elements to keep people playing long term. Things like player cities and PvP objectives that are capturable by player guilds, etc. These things foster communities that last for long periods of time. I don't understand why more games don't try to implement thee things at end-game.
Blaming the players for crappy game design is a sign of desperation.
First, I want to say this is the best and most intelligent article I have read on this site (and I have been here since it started just wasn't using the forums at that time (I was over at ign's)).
I agree that "content locusts" as you call them ruin games to the point that all that matter to A LOT of people are maxing a chracter out. I want to add to it that A LOT of those type people are more then willing to cheat in any fashion to get to that point. Even in Asheron's Call they existed using afk macros of the drains through walls or perching or glitched some place. But back then they were a SMALL percentage of the population and most of us weren't even aware they existed until years of playing the game. Hell it never even occurred to me to cheat in a game like that and once I realized it was going on I it greatly hurt my gaming experience.
These days however, that just isn't the case. I don't know if it is the next generation or gamers of what but a large population just wants to be maxed out to be the first to say they got there no matter what they did to get there. Another group of them want to get there for pvp reasons to have that extra advantage. In swtor I don't think level matters as much in the queable pvp as I was very effective in it starting at level 12.
I don't think the "content locusts" or power gamers understand that NO company can deliver the amount of content they thrive for is they are just running through everything and/or playing 20+ hours of gaming a week. Hell some of these guys are playing these games 50+ hours a week. There is no company that can deliver that kind of new content to keep someone with that demand happy.
I think one way that might help is to put a lock on how many level one can increase in a month. If a game has GOOD content with nice side games (pvp, questing, etc.) to keep the non-"content locusts" happy then having a limit won't matter. It would only effect the power leveling gamers and might actually drive them away from a game leaving the devloper the ability to add sufficient content to keep the average gamer happy and not have to focus on a larger level range of content specifically the end game that these "content locust" get to way to fast.
"Back then, the journey mattered – hell, the journey was the game."
I only play MMORPG's where the above philosophy is the focus of its design. Hence, I haven't touched SWTOR, yet.
"Devs, read my lips: leveling is FUN. Slow the damn train down a bit and let us enjoy the scenery"
Well I'd rather the scenery changed at a good pace rather than slow.
I think maybe about 4 hours is enough and then change the scenery. So I don't think it has anything to do with leveling.
Guild Wars 2's 50 minutes game play video:http://n4g.com/news/592585/guild-wars-2-50-minutes-of-pure-gameplayEverything We Know about GW2:http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/287180/page/1
Originally posted by indiramourn "Back then, the journey mattered – hell, the journey was the game." I only play MMORPG's where the above philosophy is the focus of its design. Hence, I haven't touched SWTOR, yet.
Same here. Disposable content is not an acceptable end game.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
wow I know EA don't give a rat's butt about us gamers, only if they recieve their investment back. But COME ON, to let the IP and a game that has potential die like this ...really makes me not WANT to play MMOs anymore..just get me a Xbox.
Bioware DO SOME QUICK DAMAGE CONTROL once your game completley tanks, like WAR, everyone gets fired, no money and it goes free to play
Originally posted by VincentG85 This is where The Secret World stands : - No Levels : You start at "end-game" ! - 500 Skills tu Unlock : Grinding all of the 500 is going to take a bunch of time !
- Developer: Funcom = FAIL
Edit: After 5 months playing TSW I am forced to admit that Funcom has actually learned a lesson from its past failures. Now if they could just stop breaking the game whenever they patch it? I'm taking a break from TSW while they fix some serious bugs that have been ruining my play experience. And Funcom, get SLI working, dang it!
Originally posted by nerovipus32 Blaming the players for crappy game design is a sign of desperation.
The entire system of seperating your players based on level requirements for content is tired and dated, IMO.
Skill point gateways are no different.
Mentoring and other level adjusting/bolstering etc. systems SHOULD be mandatory in all MMOs by now.
Games need to focus on game play and not gear and levels. This ideal that you have to grind out levels to get to the end game and then grind to get two and three and even four sets of gear is beyond absurd - in fact there is no word currrently in use today that can discribe the stupidity of this design model.
A game should start from day one and never end. There is no "end game" because there is no way to win. Not in an MMORPG.
Wanna know why people keep playing games like WOW? Because now they are invested in their characters. Doesn't matter if game X comes out and is the new shiney. They'll go play it, max level, see the game is no better than WoW(most cases worse than WoW), then go right back to WoW because WoW is the better game and they have invested time into it and they have community there. If the right game came along, they'd ditch WoW and stay with the new game.
Something I have said in my blog is we need games that focus on building communities using game play mechanics to do it. Focus on game play and players will stay. What reason is there for someone to stay in a game like SWTOR or Rift? What can the players latch onto inside the game itself that will help them build a community? There is not even faction pride in SWTOR. Atleast WoW has that. Bioware doesn't even use that as a means to tie the players together.
These genre needs a wake up call.
Games do not need to be grindy, they do not need levels, nor do they need to use gear as carrots on a stick to keep people playing. They just need better game play to keep people playing.
GAME PLAY TRUMPS ALL.
So is blaming developers en masse for a single game that just wasn't designed solely for you.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Originally posted by Teala These genre needs a wake up call.
Originally posted by Teala Games need to focus on game play and not gear and levels. This ideal that you havbe to grind out levels to get to the end game and then grind to get two and three and even four sets of gear is beyond absurd - in fact there is no word currrently in use today that can discribe the stupidity of this design model. A game should start from day one and never end. There is no "end game" because there is no way to win. Not in an MMORPG. Wanna know why people keep playing games like WOW? Because now they are invested in their characters. Doesn't matter if game X comes out and is the new shiney. They'll go play it, max level, see the game is no better than WoW(most cases worse than WoW), then go right back to WoW because WoW is the better game and they have invested time into it and they have community there. If the right game came along, they'd ditch WoW and stay with the new game. Something I have said in my blog is we need games that focus on building communities using game play mechanics to do it. Focus on game play and players will stay. What reason is there for someone to stay in a game like SWTOR or Rift? What can the players latch onto inside the game itself that will help them build a community? There is not even faction pride in SWTOR. Atleast WoW has that. Bioware doesn't even use that as a means to tie the players together. These genre needs a wake up call. Games do not need to be grindy, they do not need levels, nor do they need to use gear as carrots on a stick to keep people playing. They just need better game play to keep people playing.
I don't always agree with you Teala, but I do agree that there should be games LIKE that. I don't think EVERY game should be like that.
To answer your question about SWTOR or RIFT, the only reason for someone to stay is if they enjoy the game, nothing more.
I want a game like you describe Teala, hell I'll take 10 games like you describe, but just as other genres have different types of game styles I don't think the traditional style isn't "fun".... I just think its been overplayed.
Originally posted by plescure Really good article. Completely agree. i end up demotivated before i even start playing a lot of the new MMO's for this exact reason. MMO's used to about the journey not the destination. And ofc its all WOW's fault. They were the 1st MMO's to change to this ultra fast leveling systme and because there so successful most of the other MMO's followed. Even my beloved EQ2 which IMO is one of the best leveling journeys out there, you can now get to max lvl in 2days!! Makes me a sad little panda
Difference is, in EQ2 you can turn your XP OFF and simply not level -- if you are interested in enjoying the content. Again choice is what is needed so those that want lvl50 in 3 days can without interfering with those who want to take a long as possible.
Originally posted by Icewhite Originally posted by nerovipus32 Blaming the players for crappy game design is a sign of desperation.
Plenty of games that were not for me, I moved on and didn't trash them, we are lucky to have so many MMO's out .
I didn't bought SWTOR and i'm glad i choose so... but i'm having a great time reading about it ^ ^
And the more i read, the more it seems obvious that Bioware doesn't have a clue about MMORPG. They didn't think for a sec about the diff between MMORPG and others games, about why WoW players are waiting for something else while keeping playing, about themepark, about burnout phase, about what it means to keep thousand of players occupied for months etc. etc.
As pure newcomers, it seems they just decide to pickup this genre, copy EQ/WoW with the Star Wars skin, add their storytelling and some candy (companions, space minigame etc.) and that's it.
I don't know if ArenaNet and Funcom's next games will be succesfull but at least, they INVESTIGATE ! They asked themself: "what are MMORPG big problems (because the genre have big problems) and how can we solve them ?"
It's amazing that for each problem in SWTOR that Bioware never thought about, there's an answer in GW2 or TSW:
_ PvP is not balanced in SWTOR ? GW2 and TSW will have 3 factions.
_ Leveling is too fast/easy in SWTOR ? TSW doesn't have levels and GW2 doesn't have endgame !
_ SWTOR has the same "kill 10 x" quests ? TSW will have puzzles that requiere wikipedia.
_ SWTOR's world is static, lifeless and instanced ? in GW2 hundred of players can join in the world to fight big mobs (don't know about TSW yet).
_ SWTOR's "choices" have no consequence ? GW2 will have dynamic events that change a zone for days, for everyone !
td/dr ; SWTOR is everything MMORPG shouldn't be. GW2/TSW will bring (some) answers to burnout syndrome.
Originally posted by DukeDu Thats why korean mmo are still the best.
no .. the korean mmo's lack ANY content to go with the leveing .. it's just sit in the same place and kill xbillion rats.
grind for the sake of grind isn't fun either.
Yes, imo, it was much much better when every new piece of gear actually meant something. So why doesnt it matter anymore? Because you outlevel 99% of your gear 20 mins after you get it, and thats how it is all the way to end game. Its not players who are guilty for that, its devs, mind you. If they werent throwing 900 pieces of slightly better gear upon us, 8 times per level, it would still feel like acomplisment, rather than 'yay i just got a 2% better piece of crap which im gonna use for next 4,5 quests' feeling we have now.
Leveling speed does matter too, but not that much compared to gazillion eq pieces we are being "awarded" for killing 10 rats every 5 minutes. It makes all but end game gear obsolete, thus making the rest of the game quite obsolete too, considering how getting new pieces of gear is one of the most motivating points for many people.
it all makes the leveling aspect less fun, which also makes peoeple wanting to rush thru content so they can finally get somethig that they wont outlevel in next 30 mins.
You know, in old games every piece of gear had its place in the world, even when you get something better, there was ALWAYS another person willing to keep on using that item after you are done with it. Now all we have is thousands of vendor crap that doesnt last more than one playing session, and you wonder why people dont actually feel like they accomplished something when they get new piece of (usually) quest gear.
@teala, even if the gear wouldnt mean that much (aka have little impact on your stats and pvp) getting new piece should make you feel like you actually accomplished something and you deserved it, not something you'll throw away in no time. But gear grind (in its all appernaces) does motivate people, and one regular mmo player does need something to look forward, because all mmos are in one way or another, grindy.