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Where's the exploration?

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  • tixylixtixylix gfff, TNPosts: 1,208Member Uncommon

    SWTOR is more of an MMO IMO, it does everything you want from one but without other people and it actuall has good quests. I've discovered other people suck and I'd rather just be playing solo anyways.

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by spizz


    Originally posted by lizardbones


    Originally posted by spizz


    Originally posted by lizardbones
    I did some exploration on Nar Shadda outside of the story line.

    Actually Nar Shaddar is for me the most boring planet out of all and I was happy after finishing the quests to leave this planet asap. 
    Thre is nothing to explore. The planet offers only small  maps where you have 2-3 main streets and a net of side roads, some almost empty halls with monuments and shops and around the world the lifeless npc standing around most in a group of 3. 
    What did you explore here ? 
    The maps are so tiny that you will see most with questing anyway. The side and class quests send you on quests to walk forth and back on such maps and reveal as good as everything on your ingame map.


    Exploration is where you find it. It's not tied to the size of the map. You can explore in a 10 foot by 10 foot room. But anyway...walking everywhere the quest lines take you does not fill in the entire map of Nar Shadaa (Shaddaa? Shadda?). You have to go out of your way to fill in the entire map.

    I'm not saying that SWToR is an explorer's paradise. It's certainly not the main reason for playing the game. It's not an 'open world' game. The game's strong point is the directed story line so being an open world exploration game is counter to the game's strong point. I'm simply saying that the option to explore exists, and you'll have to explore some to find that option.

    I understand what you want to say.
    Actually its similar with single player games. 
    Oblivion/Fallout3/Skyrim/Morrowind offers great exploring and a lot of content to discover in an open world
    Now compare this to:
    MassEffect I+II, Kotor I+II, Dragon Age I+II
     
    They are totally different game types but you can clearly see the difference if you actually played them. This is not much difference with mmorpgs, where some games offer exploration with an open world and some not because they are boxed in and linear.
     
    Yes you can also explore a 10x10, but this is not what gamers expect who actually love to explore a huge and immersive game world. Exploration is not just about  "where to find it" but also about the offered game content and game design.


    Wanting an open world exploration game won't create them out of the aether. SWToR was never billed as an open world exploration game. It was billed as an mmorpg with a personal story line. Story, story, story, story, story <- repeat this until you want to punch anyone who says the word, "story". That's what they said this game is and that's what it is.

    At the same time, you can't say there is no exploration in the game at all. There are areas to find outside of your personal story line. There is a mini-game based around exploration in finding the datacrons. It does exist. Compared to everything else in the game, it's minor, but it's there.

    I totally understand wanting an open world exploration type mmorpg, what I don't understand is expecting an open world exploration type mmorpg with no indication that open world exploration was even a consideration.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • ariestearieste toronto, ONPosts: 3,308Member Common

    Originally posted by StinkyPits

    The one thing I really wanted was a lush game to explore without a bunch of loading zones.  Each world feels like it's about the size of a large field (some larger than others), but not a large explorable world.  Don't get me wrong, I'm still playing and enjoying the game, but I feel kind of disappointed in this department.  Why is it so difficult to make a game that has more exploration.  When I played WAR at launch, that even felt like it had more explorable areas than this does and the loading zones in that game were obnoxious.  

    I'm just not really sure why BioWare made the decision to chop the game into pieces with buildings that use elevators (one loading zone point) and smaller worlds that don't seem that big.  I haven't played WoW in forever, but I was hoping we'd see something on the scale of that game where each zone was explorable without having to load to the next.  Why is that so difficult to pull off in a game like this?  I'm sure it was a conscious decision by the dev team, but still a poor choice to use load zones.

    Just disappointed in the exploration part of this game.  Was really looking forward to exploring the Star Wars universe a bit more freely.  /rant

     

     

    Exploration of the star wars galaxy was cancelled in december because it wasn't what people wanted.  What people really wanted is this.  TOR is the game you were REALLY looking for.   At least what the old man in the robe told me.  I think it was George Lucas.  Soon we will all move along.

    "I’d rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."

    - Raph Koster

    Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
    Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2
    Currently Playing: EQ2, Firefall

  • Masa1Masa1 LapuaPosts: 318Member Uncommon

    In WoW there was no reason to explore, but the landscape was so well done that it basically lured players to explore.

     

    In SWTOR, you actually do have a reason to explore, but.....

    You are stuck with a lot of small zones, which are supposed to be planets, but certainly don't feel like ones.. It's like a broken puzzle with no way to solve it.

  • olepiolepi Austin, TXPosts: 1,150Member Uncommon

    To me, it's a fundamental. The games I most like are virtual open worlds, where the player can explore and "live" in the world. This is a type of MMO. The other type of MMO is a closed, rail-type system that is usually story driven. BioWare has never been known for creating vrtual worlds, so it would be a mistake to think they would create one now.

    The best games for exploring that I have played, IMHO, are Vanguard and Ryzom. Vanguard is huge, and no loading zones. It is all wide open. One of my favorite things was finding this out of the way, off the map, town that had a competition going. I could earn a whole set of armor doing their competitions. No quest took me there.

    Ryzom is absolutely the best "virtual" world, wtih seasons, migration of mobs, and extremely intelligent mob behavior.

    Alas, there is no Star Wars universe for players like me.

    ------------
    RIP City of Heroes. One of my favorite MMO's.

  • GMan3GMan3 Ewa Beach, HIPosts: 2,127Member

        Funny, but while I will admit this game needs improvement in some areas, and expansion in others, I would not say that exploration is one of them.  I would have to say that if you are not finding the goodies you want in exploration, then maybe you just are not exploring that much.  I am constantly finding hidden little goodies all over the place.  Everything from hidden resource nodes to short cuts to datacrons to amazing boss fights and more.

        It's funny, but it seems to me that the people that complain about exploration are the same people that either do not like to explore the world OR that expect all the goodies to be on the standard path instead of in out of the way areas.  So far my highest level character is level 37, mostly because I can't stop myself from getting off the standard paths and seeing what else I can find.

    "If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"

  • Masa1Masa1 LapuaPosts: 318Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by GMan3

        Funny, but while I will admit this game needs improvement in some areas, and expansion in others, I would not say that exploration is one of them.  I would have to say that if you are not finding the goodies you want in exploration, then maybe you just are not exploring that much.  I am constantly finding hidden little goodies all over the place.  Everything from hidden resource nodes to short cuts to datacrons to amazing boss fights and more.

        It's funny, but it seems to me that the people that complain about exploration are the same people that either do not like to explore the world OR that expect all the goodies to be on the standard path instead of in out of the way areas.  So far my highest level character is level 37, mostly because I can't stop myself from getting off the standard paths and seeing what else I can find.

    You are completely off the path on the discussion.

     

    I don't see anyone saying that exploration in SWTOR isn't rewarding. I only see people saying that exploration is boring because areas are ugly/boring/cages... ;)

  • GMan3GMan3 Ewa Beach, HIPosts: 2,127Member

    Originally posted by arieste

    Exploration of the star wars galaxy was cancelled in december because it wasn't what people wanted.  What people really wanted is this.  TOR is the game you were REALLY looking for.   At least what the old man in the robe told me.  I think it was George Lucas.  Soon we will all move along.

        Actually, what told them this was not Lucas, it was the amount of subscriptions they had.  Money speaks loudest and SWG was not making enough.  If you want to blame anyone, blame all the people complaining about open world exploration that were not playing the game.  Oh and blame SOE for screwing up ANOTHER game.  At least then you will be blaming the right sets of people.

    "If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"

  • GMan3GMan3 Ewa Beach, HIPosts: 2,127Member

    Originally posted by Masa1

    Originally posted by GMan3

        Funny, but while I will admit this game needs improvement in some areas, and expansion in others, I would not say that exploration is one of them.  I would have to say that if you are not finding the goodies you want in exploration, then maybe you just are not exploring that much.  I am constantly finding hidden little goodies all over the place.  Everything from hidden resource nodes to short cuts to datacrons to amazing boss fights and more.

        It's funny, but it seems to me that the people that complain about exploration are the same people that either do not like to explore the world OR that expect all the goodies to be on the standard path instead of in out of the way areas.  So far my highest level character is level 37, mostly because I can't stop myself from getting off the standard paths and seeing what else I can find.

    You are completely off the path on the discussion.

     

    I don't see anyone saying that exploration in SWTOR isn't rewarding. I only see people saying that exploration is boring because areas are ugly/boring/cages... ;)

        Hmm . . . let's explore that then.  Many of the planets I have visited have been ravaged by war so there is your ugly and it fits pretty dang well.  Just like the real world there are areas that are hard to get to and some that are almost impossible without a LOT of work so that is your boring.  Also just like the real world there are areas you will have to climb stairs or take an elevator too.  Places that have something called a wall to keep you from walking off into thin air.  Places in which you are surrounded by stone, I think this is called a CAVE in the real world, but don't quote me on that.

        The fact is that BioWare DID make a huge world, then added to it by making it layered.  They added a good bit of realism in the game by actually keeping their world realistic, as much as you can with a futuristic world anyways.  I find the exploration worthwhile because I actually get out there and explore.  I don't expect the next easter bunny behind every turn like most people seem too.  I just enjoy finding new things and places.  I enjoy the views.  But mostly I just like to explore.  It seems to me that most people posting in this thread don't actually like to explore, regardless of what they are saying.

     

    "If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"

  • ZekiahZekiah Aurora, COPosts: 2,499Member

    Exploration in Theme Park designs...

     

     

    ...if you're lucky.

    "Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky

  • FlawSGIFlawSGI Woodstock, GAPosts: 1,379Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Zekiah

    Exploration in Theme Park designs...

     

     

    ...if you're lucky.

     Sad but true. But the TOR fans will tell you it comes in the form of looking for the datacrons. The sad part is they really beleive this is what exploration is all about.

    RIP Jimmy "The Rev" Sullivan and Paul Gray.

  • RocketeerRocketeer NachrodtPosts: 1,304Member

    Exploration requires Space. The more space you have, the more meaningful exploration becomes. Who is the most recognized explorer in history? Christopher Columbus. And why? Because he went a really really long way away from home, sailing over a vast ocean mankind thought knew no end.

    Sure maybe there has also been some old dude in switzerland, exploring the barn where he kept his two cows. But well ... he is rather inconsequential when talking about explorers and most people won't remember him for his explorative feats.

     

    So yeah, lack of space is the problem. BW obviously tried to give us reasons to go around exploring, but there simply isn't enough space for that isn't jam packed full with quests. Imagine the game area being several times as big, and datacrons and rare extremely valuable mobs which are dropping awesome stuff rarely spawning in random off the road places(and persisting until killed). Yeah, you would get a bunch of explorers real fast.

    But people would whine if you could get epics by running around dozens of hours through the wilderness and getting lucky, you are supposed to kill raidbosses over and over and over for weeks on end for that stuff only to repeat that cycle again once they release the next raid ...

     

    P.S.: EvE got exploration down pretty much perfectly, even if its a dark and grimy commercialised exploration based on exploiting the rare resources in hard to reach systems. Its mostly down to randomisation, you can enter special systems through unstable wormholes which are constantly closing and reforming in random parts of the galaxy. There are about 2500 of these systems and a WH won't be stable for more than a day at max, some of the systems you can only reach through these WHs are even "deeper", i.e. WHs to it only form in systems that already can only be reached by WHs.

    You can get lost, badly. With no way back and dying miserably in the darkness.

     

    Edit: To those people saying BW created a huge world ... compared to what? I mean seriously, huge is a subjective word, so to what game are you comparing ToR and finding it large? Im genuinely curious, since i simply do not see it.

  • spizzspizz BlackForrestPosts: 2,587Member

    Originally posted by GMan3

    Originally posted by Masa1


    Originally posted by GMan3

        Funny, but while I will admit this game needs improvement in some areas, and expansion in others, I would not say that exploration is one of them.  I would have to say that if you are not finding the goodies you want in exploration, then maybe you just are not exploring that much.  I am constantly finding hidden little goodies all over the place.  Everything from hidden resource nodes to short cuts to datacrons to amazing boss fights and more.

        It's funny, but it seems to me that the people that complain about exploration are the same people that either do not like to explore the world OR that expect all the goodies to be on the standard path instead of in out of the way areas.  So far my highest level character is level 37, mostly because I can't stop myself from getting off the standard paths and seeing what else I can find.

    You are completely off the path on the discussion.

     

    I don't see anyone saying that exploration in SWTOR isn't rewarding. I only see people saying that exploration is boring because areas are ugly/boring/cages... ;)

        Hmm . . . let's explore that then.  Many of the planets I have visited have been ravaged by war so there is your ugly and it fits pretty dang well.  Just like the real world there are areas that are hard to get to and some that are almost impossible without a LOT of work so that is your boring.  Also just like the real world there are areas you will have to climb stairs or take an elevator too.  Places that have something called a wall to keep you from walking off into thin air.  Places in which you are surrounded by stone, I think this is called a CAVE in the real world, but don't quote me on that.

        The fact is that BioWare DID make a huge world, then added to it by making it layered.  They added a good bit of realism in the game by actually keeping their world realistic, as much as you can with a futuristic world anyways.  I find the exploration worthwhile because I actually get out there and explore.  I don't expect the next easter bunny behind every turn like most people seem too.  I just enjoy finding new things and places.  I enjoy the views.  But mostly I just like to explore.  It seems to me that most people posting in this thread don't actually like to explore, regardless of what they are saying.

     

    You are quiete off here ...."its not even funny" :P

    People who write here actually like to explore and know which games offer such adventures and I will give you a simple example with games most played probably.

    Take Fallout3/Morrowind/Oblivion for example as an rpg and tell me how you feel in the world, how the world itself invites you to explore it, what content they offer for exploring.

    Now take an rpg like MassEffect, Kotor or Dragon Age.

    Compare the games, look at the freedom they offer how the world invites you for exploration, how you feel in the world and what content they offer.

     

    Iam sure you see the difference and maybe you understand now what it is all about .....

     

     

  • rymanryman springfield, OHPosts: 227Member

    Originally posted by spizz

    Originally posted by lizardbones

     




    Originally posted by dinams

    I can think from the top of my head of 3 planets that exploration do not exist

    Coruscant, Nar Shadda and Quesh









    I did some exploration on Nar Shadda outside of the story line.

     

    Actually Nar Shaddar is for me the most boring planet out of all and I was happy after finishing the quests to leave this planet asap.

    Wait... so you're also forced to goto these planets to level up? I thought we at least had choices where to level our characters in MMOs... oh boy, where has the time gone?

    Never let Biocrap make another MMO....and probably sequels too.. ME2 and DA2 both sucked compared to their predecessors.

  • Laughing-manLaughing-man Dublin, OHPosts: 3,415Member Uncommon

    Games are allowed to be different.

    Bioware has a distinct style of game they've made for over a decade.

    SWTOR reflects that style perfectly.

    MMOs don't have to all be the same and include the same features.

    Star Wars doesn't have exploration in it really... Thats Star Trek.

     

    Thank you.

  • allegriaallegria San Francisco, CAPosts: 682Member

    Originally posted by Mythios11

    Unfortunately Bioware focused too much on character immersion and completely forgot about world immersion. The end result is lackluster for many long time mmo players.

    Indeed.

    It is interesting to bring up because i felt very very immersed in Dragon Age and ME 1+2, yet SWTOR just felt too confined for some reason.  I am not sure if it is the "distances" or I fell into the trap of talk to NPC, follow map marker. 

    It is fairly obvious where the effort went into this project "making player feel like a hero" in their own story... world immersion was not really their focus and sadly that is one thing that I really enjoy about MMOs. :(

  • tuppe99tuppe99 Dublin, INPosts: 276Member Uncommon

    I think this one guy on the official forums nailed it:

    "The problem I have is that if you do every quest on a planet, you'll go to every room, cave or zone except the ones for other classes. It makes the world feel a lot smaller. Every creature and room you see is there because of a quest. There isn't that big a variety of different creatures to see either, just a ton of humans and droids everywhere. That could be a limit of the Star Wars universe though.



    In WoW, you run by areas and creatures that have nothing to do with you. They may be for quests for the other faction or ones you get from other areas but you feel like there's more to each zone than what was there for you. Having things in the world that have nothing to do with you really helps make the world feel alive. 



    In SWTOR, theres no reason to ever go back to a planet casuse you've seen every inch of it already. 




    It feels like Bioware designed the quests, and built the world around that, while WoW built a world, then made quests for you to do in it."

     

    Sums it up for me.

  • SanHorSanHor ZagrebPosts: 336Member

    Originally posted by lizardbones



    I did some exploration on Nar Shadda outside of the story line.

    Picking through grabage cans doesn't count.

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by tuppe99
    I think this one guy on the official forums nailed it:
    "The problem I have is that if you do every quest on a planet, you'll go to every room, cave or zone except the ones for other classes. It makes the world feel a lot smaller. Every creature and room you see is there because of a quest. There isn't that big a variety of different creatures to see either, just a ton of humans and droids everywhere. That could be a limit of the Star Wars universe though.In WoW, you run by areas and creatures that have nothing to do with you. They may be for quests for the other faction or ones you get from other areas but you feel like there's more to each zone than what was there for you. Having things in the world that have nothing to do with you really helps make the world feel alive. In SWTOR, theres no reason to ever go back to a planet casuse you've seen every inch of it already. It feels like Bioware designed the quests, and built the world around that, while WoW built a world, then made quests for you to do in it."
     
    Sums it up for me.


    It took Blizzard seven years to get all that extra stuff that isn't used. That is all stuff that they were going to use, but then didn't. The island with the elite Nagas? Part of a quest chain that they removed or never managed to get into the game. Everything that you would 'explore' is just extra thumbs that they never managed to cut off.

    So...give BioWare time to add things that they'll never actually use.

    On world design, Bioware did design the world around the story and the quests. I don't think anyone would say otherwise. But since the story is the main point of the game, this makes sense.

    Finally, as I stated, even on Nar Shadaa, I did some exploring, and it wasn't picking through garbage cans. Dumpster diving is exploration though.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by FlawSGI

    Originally posted by Zekiah
    Exploration in Theme Park designs...
     

     
    ...if you're lucky.
     Sad but true. But the TOR fans will tell you it comes in the form of looking for the datacrons. The sad part is they really beleive this is what exploration is all about.



    No, not exactly. For people with the idea that exploration is "All or Nothing", SWToR has none. Which is not true...you can explore. The amount of content you can explore is small, very true. But it exists.

    The thread's title would be more accurate as "Where's the Open World?" Then people could quickly say, "Duh, it's a theme park. Why did you expect an open world?"

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • outfctrloutfctrl Jacksonville, FLPosts: 3,619Member

    Originally posted by Vonatar

    Exploration, like so many MMO features some of us remember fondly from our days in games like EQ, is a thing of the past. Today's MMO player wants something different, something that gets him easily through the content and to max level so he can PVP, raid, chase gear or whatever. Hence the rise of the themepark. WoW is probably the last of its kind in offering anything more than a streamlined handheld journey to the top.

    Plus, us older gamers just don't have the time to spend in MMOs that we used to, between work, family etc. Yes I look back at EQ with very happy memories, but the reality is I wouldn't be able to play it now with the couple of hours each day I can spend in game. BW is just following the modern trend and not wasting time and resources on giant, rich environments that only a very small number of players would take time to explore or even take notice of.

    ^

    What he said.

    I used to spend many hours exploring in UO.  Hell, I used to call in sick on days I wanted to play.  Too many responsibilities now.

    The older you get, the less time you have to play.

    image

  • FlawSGIFlawSGI Woodstock, GAPosts: 1,379Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by lizardbones

     




    Originally posted by FlawSGI





    Originally posted by Zekiah

    Exploration in Theme Park designs...

     



     

    ...if you're lucky.






     Sad but true. But the TOR fans will tell you it comes in the form of looking for the datacrons. The sad part is they really beleive this is what exploration is all about.







    No, not exactly. For people with the idea that exploration is "All or Nothing", SWToR has none. Which is not true...you can explore. The amount of content you can explore is small, very true. But it exists.



    The thread's title would be more accurate as "Where's the Open World?" Then people could quickly say, "Duh, it's a theme park. Why did you expect an open world?"

     

     I woulda left the picture in since it prety much said it all . It did show a very little amount of exploration as well haha.

     

    I don't agree that just because it is a themepark that it cannot have open world explorations. What about GW2 then? It is constantly called a themepark yet the game is all anbout exploration and as unlinear as they can make it? Only bringing GW2 up because it is an example of exploration. FFXI? Rare spawns that dropped rare gear so people explored to find them. Just 2 examples of games that are conciddered "themeparks" but have a good amount of exploration. I don't think it is all or nothing myself. I don't concidder WoW to have no exploration though there was really very little in that game as well. But TOR is so tunneled that it really really stands out. Title seems fitting.

    RIP Jimmy "The Rev" Sullivan and Paul Gray.

  • ZekiahZekiah Aurora, COPosts: 2,499Member

    Originally posted by FlawSGI

    Originally posted by lizardbones

     




    Originally posted by FlawSGI






    Originally posted by Zekiah

    Exploration in Theme Park designs...

     



     

    ...if you're lucky.







     Sad but true. But the TOR fans will tell you it comes in the form of looking for the datacrons. The sad part is they really beleive this is what exploration is all about.








    No, not exactly. For people with the idea that exploration is "All or Nothing", SWToR has none. Which is not true...you can explore. The amount of content you can explore is small, very true. But it exists.



    The thread's title would be more accurate as "Where's the Open World?" Then people could quickly say, "Duh, it's a theme park. Why did you expect an open world?"

     

     I woulda left the picture in since it prety much said it all . It did show a very little amount of exploration as well haha.

     

    I don't agree that just because it is a themepark that it cannot have open world explorations. What about GW2 then? It is constantly called a themepark yet the game is all anbout exploration and as unlinear as they can make it? Only bringing GW2 up because it is an example of exploration. FFXI? Rare spawns that dropped rare gear so people explored to find them. Just 2 examples of games that are conciddered "themeparks" but have a good amount of exploration. I don't think it is all or nothing myself. I don't concidder WoW to have no exploration though there was really very little in that game as well. But TOR is so tunneled that it really really stands out. Title seems fitting.

    I haven't played SWTOR but if it's anything like Rift in how linear it is, or worse, then I'm extra glad I didn't pick it up.

    One of the best things about SWG was map-rollover because it made you feel like it was a real planet and not just a gimmick with linear walls of magic protection. Games that are heavily linear are atrocious to play for me and I'm sure others like yourself. It just kills immersion.

    "Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky

  • ZekiahZekiah Aurora, COPosts: 2,499Member

    And btw, how's that space exploration coming along? image

    "Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky

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