Originally posted by WhiteLantern I live in an expansive non-virtual world. I cut firewood weekly through the spring and fall (winter sometimes too). I build fences and barns. I raise goats and horses (and a llama even). I have a garden larger than the typical suburban housing lot. I also have a 40hr job in a factory. I don't want to do these things in a virtual world. I want to play games. Sometimes, I want to play them with other people.
I understand why some people want sandbox games because I enjoy all of the items I listed above and I'm sure some people can't experience them in the real world. But to say that only sandboxes are true MMOs and everyone else is destroying your sandcastle with their desire for fun gameplay that isn't what you call fun? Grow up.
I understand what you are saying, but is it really a MMO experience you are looking for? What I underlined had me thinking maybe not. Don't get me wrong, I am the same way about sometimes playing solo, sometimes playing with others. I highly dislike having to depend on others for my in game experience I still had fun in EQ for the few levels I could do things on my own. Then I found a guild and it opened up whole new parts of the game to me.
Not aimed at you, WhiteLantern MMOs used to be about time. It took time (good or bad) for everything. It was an "investment" in one's time. A player did not log on for 15 minutes and expect to accomplish much. Players in groups hardly went afk. At least in the groups I was in they did not. There was plenty of down-time to do things like bio breaks and such. Now, "down time" is an evil game mechanic. People signed online and knew they were going to spend some time and "dedicated" themselves to the game.
I know many of you are thinking, "Whatever floats your boat!", but think about it. Name one game where you have a vested interest in your character. What hardships has that character overcome? Did you go to some website to find out how to overcome that obstacle, or did you figure it out yourself? Do the history books write about the Donner Party or the 10th plane that flew from New York to Los Angelos? Do you remember the Super Bowl that had a close score and a good game, or the blowout with mismatched teams?
MMOs used to be about overcoming hardships and investing time in a world that the player actually wanted to spend their time in. It was a bunch of basement trolls playing in a virtual world where the real world was usually not so kind, thus the stigma associated with MMOs. It was an escape. C'mon, now, NOT every player was like this, but the core of old time players were.
Players now-a-days have goals and look for successes with their time played. Players today do not "just go fishing" in a virtual world. They will if there is a daily goal involved, though. Players today do not "just see what's over that hill" unless there is an exploration badge or some other reward involved. I found a guildmate in EQ who was as interested in learning the different languages in the game as I was. We would spend HOURS just sitting and talking to each other in different languages as we taught each other.
I liken this attitude to life today, as opposed to yesteryear. People seem to be always "on the go", hurrying to get to their next destination/appointment/activity. I thnk this bleeds over into their gaming time, too. I don't think many people play just to relax anymore. It's like dating... No one wants to invest the time to get to know each other anymore.
/shrug
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
What I've found is that players dont want to pay $15/month for a heavily isntanced single-player or cooperative-online rpg, which is why we've experienced mass exodus from these STO & SW:TOR types of games within the forst 3 months.
There is nonsense on both sides. People don't like to come on the forums seeing post like 'If you like Wow or Star Wars, you are not a real MMO fan.' It's insulting and as far from the truth as possible. We have different taste, but we are still fans of the genre.
You are missing the point. What someone like or dislike does not matter, but you can't just label any game you love mmo and then its an mmo. I like diablo but I am not calling it an mmo. You could see it as insulting but if you turn it around, it is like someone moved to a new town and began telling the locals what the town is like, so it kindda goes both ways.
I live in an expansive non-virtual world. I cut firewood weekly through the spring and fall (winter sometimes too). I build fences and barns. I raise goats and horses (and a llama even). I have a garden larger than the typical suburban housing lot. I also have a 40hr job in a factory.
I don't want to do these things in a virtual world. I want to play games. Sometimes, I want to play them with other people.
I understand why some people want sandbox games because I enjoy all of the items I listed above and I'm sure some people can't experience them in the real world. But to say that only sandboxes are true MMOs and everyone else is destroying your sandcastle with their desire for fun gameplay that isn't what you call fun? Grow up.
In another words you dont want an MMORPG the way they used to be and thats fine. I dont need a sandbox. What the OP said has nothing to do with sandboxes either. Everquest was not a sandbox. Asherons Call was not a complete sandbox. It was a mix of themepark and sandbox.
Also, befor you tell someone to grow up maybe you should comprehend what they are saying. The OP is spot on saying games these days arent really MMORPG's. Pretty much everything since WoW has been instanced based with social hubs. WoW was that way but it was large enough to feel at least somewhat open world.
MMOs used to be about time. It took time (good or bad) for everything. It was an "investment" in one's time. A player did not log on for 15 minutes and expect to accomplish much. Players in groups hardly went afk. At least in the groups I was in they did not. There was plenty of down-time to do things like bio breaks and such. Now, "down time" is an evil game mechanic. People signed online and knew they were going to spend some time and "dedicated" themselves to the game.
I know many of you are thinking, "Whatever floats your boat!", but think about it. Name one game where you have a vested interest in your character. What hardships has that character overcome? Did you go to some website to find out how to overcome that obstacle, or did you figure it out yourself? Do the history books write about the Donner Party or the 10th plane that flew from New York to Los Angelos? Do you remember the Super Bowl that had a close score and a good game, or the blowout with mismatched teams?
MMOs used to be about overcoming hardships and investing time in a world that the player actually wanted to spend their time in. It was a bunch of basement trolls playing in a virtual world where the real world was usually not so kind, thus the stigma associated with MMOs. It was an escape. C'mon, now, NOT every player was like this, but the core of old time players were.
Players now-a-days have goals and look for successes with their time played. Players today do not "just go fishing" in a virtual world. They will if there is a daily goal involved, though. Players today do not "just see what's over that hill" unless there is an exploration badge or some other reward involved. I found a guildmate in EQ who was as interested in learning the different languages in the game as I was. We would spend HOURS just sitting and talking to each other in different languages as we taught each other.
I liken this attitude to life today, as opposed to yesteryear. People seem to be always "on the go", hurrying to get to their next destination/appointment/activity. I thnk this bleeds over into their gaming time, too. I don't think many people play just to relax anymore. It's like dating... No one wants to invest the time to get to know each other anymore.
/shrug
You know what i think the difference is between people that call themselves "old timers" and what they call the new crowd of casual gamers?
Old timers were looking for friends.
Casual people are looking for fun.
2 total different mind sets. Yes, they can combine a bit. But just think of that.
One set is more interested in making long term commitments by looking for friends that game.
And the other is looking for a fun game to play. And will drop the game as soon as the fun stops, with no, or small amount of thought given, to the people that they may have met while playing.
Both gamers, but the mind sets will always set them apart from each other. And the casual is where the investors and dev's are spending the cash.
And i really do not see it ever going back to the old way. And yes on topic:) because the 2 groups see what defines a MMO as completely different as their reasons to game. And neither can really see that they are both right, and wrong.
Granted, Meridian 59 was my first true MMO, it wasn't until EQ that I realized just how amazing online games could be. Being a fan of AD&D since I was 8, roleplaying was a huge part of my gaming hobby. When EQ launched, it was buggy and complicated and new. NPC's didn't have exclamation points above their head or dot trails leading you to your quest objective. EQ was designed in a way that forced players to explore the world, not that I would really classify it as forced, since most enjoyed traveling the world by foot. Sure, Druids and Wizards could teleport but it wasn't as easy to come by as most MMO's today.
The OP brings up a good point. Today's MMO generation are lazy, thats right, lazy in their gaming when in fact, all they are doing is pressing keys and moving a mouse. So what if it takes an hour to get from one zone to another. If you can't enjoy that simple aspect called exploration, why are you playing MMO's? MMO's were designed to pass time and with that in mind, we lost our direction.
Remember the language barrier in EQ? Not everyone could communicate with one another. Remember needing food and water in your bag? Remember STR stat actually affecting how much one could carry aka encumberance? It's like today's gamers have zero and I mean zero sense of RP.
I don't care if gaming companies want to cater to that particular crowd, but please, don't claim to be making an MMORPG and have it end up like GW, Global Agenda or APB.
Let's bring back the RP to MMOG and get back to the roots that started this epic genre. Let's bring back SWG, EQ and DAoC utilizing today's technology and graphics. Heck, even Anarchy Online in it's god awful launch is a much better game then some of the crap coming out claiming to be MMO's.
OP, I totally agree with you on this, unfortunately.
I think there really is room for both types of MMOs. Heck, I could see myself playing a casual game some days and something deeper with plenty of exploration other days.
The real problem with exploration is that in some games there really isn´t much to explore, moving through a gigantic forrest with just trees and some monsters placed in a certain order isn´t that fun, you need to find stuff to actually explore something. Just small stuff like a rare harvestable flower, a small ruin that looks weird or maybe a rare animal.
I started with Meridian 59 as well. I saw the potential directly but since I still had a dial up at the time I didn´t get so much out of it and didn´t really get stuk in MMOs until a few years later when I got my broadband.
Maybe the problem with the direction of the genre has nothing at all to do with player wants and or feedback and everything to do with developers trying to push the genre toward the Console market?
I'm a casual player and I don't want a corpg or lobby based game, but neither do I want to return to the old days of camping spots and loot drop grinds, hell levels and time requirments that would tax even a retiree. I want persistant, breathing worlds that are immersive and fun to play, but not if they're going to suck the life out of you, turning you into a basement dweller.
This +1 every store you go in regular retail or specialty gaming the PC selection is shrinking or non existant. A number of MMOs have already worked to cross platform and with the release of next gen consoles rapidly approaching, we're likely to see more and more games become cross platform or console exclusive. Face it console games are easier to develop because the only need to work on one hardware standard. The market majority are casual console gamers who won't spend hundreds to upgrade a PC just to waste hours on one single game. These gamers would rather spend an hour or two playing BF3 or MF3 with family members and friends three States away than 8 hours on a PC sandbox with people they really don't know. Until that changes (and it's not ever likey) the trend will move more to the casual with every passing year.
They want to play something like Guild Wars or Diablo where you have social hubs and instanced questing areas. They want an experience that is quick to get into and rewards them constantly for doing nothing like all the ribbons you get in BF3. They don't want to explore vast worlds, have a challenge or do any world content. They certainlly are not interested in the idea of a virtual seamless world like what MMOs tried to offer in the past.
For me an MMO has to have a persistent world that can have a MASSIVE amount of players in any one area. That is the basis of the gameplay because if Planetside 2 only offered 64 player fights and then a social hub to visit it wouldn't be an MMO. Yet we have games these days calling themselves MMOs and they lack any of this.
Every MMO I've ever loved playing has been ruined by all the whiners on the forums. The problem is the developers listen to them, give them what they want and patch by patch we slowly lose the MMO and are just left with a multiplayer game.
It's happening and happened to SWTOR already...
People are already asking for fast travel every, the ability to just warp to any planet from your location. They're already asking for faster vehicles because they hate the travel times which in SWTOR are so small as it is. In beta they added the fleets which basically took everyone out of the worlds and put them in a social hub where they just stay there. Most people now just sit there get groups for flashpoints and battlegrounds and level up on that stuff like what happened to WoW. The worlds have no one in them because these people playing do not want to play an MMO, they just want to play Guild Wars.
We have these amazing cities in SWTOR with no one in them because of that fleet station and it has ruined the MMO in that game. I at least want people to be in those cities and not the fleet station which shouldn't even be in the game in the first place.
What is happening to world PVP now? Well it barely exists outside of the PVP planets and oh look the population cap on them is getting shrunk already. There is even talk about just turning them into bigger battlegrounds like AV. The players on Ilum don't want a world PVP experience, they just want to exploit and farm the game until they ruin it and the developers take out world PVP altogether like what happened in WoW.
Every MMO this has happened to and the last one I truely loved to play (SWG) it happened to that too. Forums whiners slowly got that game dumbed down over time to the point it was ruined well before the CU or the NGE. The CU was the straw and the NGE was just he final Nail, but the truth is that game was well and truely going down the shitter by early 2004.
SWTOR has made me realise that no one wants to play MMOs anymore and I have no interest in carrying on with the genre that clearly died out many years ago. What it has turned into today is all thanx to the casual crowd that WoW brought it and they moaned until they killed that game off too. Mythic had the right idea in not having any forums and the only dveeloper that has managed to keep their MMO true to their vision is CCP, so credit to them for that. I'd watch out though it probably wont be too long before it becomes class and loot based lol.
I think the main issue is people want to play mmo's I am sure alot of them want to do all you said the problem is as the mmo genre has grown more and more ppl are in these games now which also means more and more kiddies and immature adults who berate anything someone does wrong or any mistake from missing crap on the floor in WoW to not doing "enough dps" combine that with no real consquence for that kinda behavior,Yes we has toolbags back in the early mmog days also the difference was you didn't have cross realms and random dungeon finder etc etc and if you burned bridges on your server you were done for so it helped keep players in line as they knew once they got blackballed it was either reroll or never do any end game content.
People have became so critical of others it has made them withdraw and just play solo or with 1-2 friends they feel like they cannot experience the game due to the idiots telling them they are playing there character wrong and berating them non stop.I mean you run a instance in WoW and even if the group is doing well you will have one smarta** in group mouthing off with either worse dps ever,worse tank ever and on and on and on people will only listen to that so much til they just stop wanting to join in on anything due to it.
@kjempff I don't believe we are that extreme via your example with Diablo, but themepark or sandbox, the games that have been the hot topic in this thread are MMORPGs.
I know the difference between both. I know the benefits and cons of both. People support which style they want or fits them...and it is entirely possible for the genre to prosper in both. Do you think it would have made a difference if WoW would have labelled itself a MTORPG, or WTFO game, and it would have not affected MMORPGs? Would that make it the deciding factor of whether old MMO players would have touched it?
In my opinion, no. The same games would have been made, but only labeled differently. This thread would still be here today, just worded differently. "What I have realized is that people who are playing WTFOs, do not want to play MMOs..."
If that is how people see it, then you are correct. But wouldn't that only bring up the question of desirability of MMOs?
It is so hard not to step on anyones toes, but here is what I think is the difference between the classic mmorpg players and a gamer.
The classic mmorpg gamer is likely to have played eq, uo, doac or similar. This person was usually turned onto the genre by reading lord of the rings and other fantasi and sci fi books. This person finds the invention of new worlds with new rules extremely fascinating and has a high amount of imagination. This person needs and wants moments of escapism, and for this is using his imagination combined with whatever source he can find, that beeing books, games, movies etc.
In games for this player a kind of roleplaying is important for this to happen, and to be in the "zone of imagination" you cant have too much that constantly sends you out of your escapist moment (very individual how much this is). They need a world that somehow makes sense, and various people may accept more or less of stuff that makes their bullindicator go off. The main thing is they can stay in their escapist moment of imagination.
This is a rough and unfair generalization, but it is not entirely untrue.
I decided not to describe the new gamer, as it would certainly lead to trolling. But I think it is safe to say that the background and reason for playing games is not the same.
Preferences in games will show, and as the classic mmorpg lover I am, I can only define the mmorpg genre from that perspective. I like and play loads of other games, I just hate it when they are called mmorpgs, because to me they are not.
I've said it for years, the community is the main thing that makes or breaks a game. In older MMOs, the community was very tight-knit. Today, everyone is in it for themselves, and couldn't care less for other players. In older MMOs, there were actually petitions (and sometimes didn't even need one) for Devs to even put in statues and memorials for players that passed away. In one of my old old timey MMOs the Devs even put in an entire town named after a player since he was the leader of one of the major guilds in the game. Now you'll never see anything of the like. Community on just about every game I've played (except Rift, FFXI, DAoC) should get a community score of 1-3 out of 10.
And with the current trend of MMOs that have been released, they all encourage solo play. There is nothing in these games anymore that promotes community, and what's left is still being further destroyed.
Cross Server Grouping - No one gives a **** who they're grouped with and probably won't ever see them again, why build a relationship?
Cross Server Raiding - What's the point of a guild now? Run with a guild to do the same content again for +3 more stats to underwater basket weaving, while having to schedule raids out ahead of time? Why bother?
The Death of Crafting - Most of the older MMOs I played had a very tight nit crafting community. Crafted gear was actually worth something and you had to "seek" out a crafter that was able to fulfill your needs. Gear had a quality and durability attribute assigned to it which would affect stats, all crafters were not equal.
Fast Travel/Flying Mounts - While not always a bad thing, is often done to the point where game immersion is lost, the majority of content can be bypassed, and kills world PvP if you're into that kind of thing. World PvP develops community, rivalries just aren't formed anymore. Remember seeing a certain player name or guild and trying to gank them? or trying not to get ganked?
General Hand Holding - Most games tell you exactly what to do now, there's no mystery in it or sense of discovery anymore. Go to "x" quest hub, follow arrow to "y" quest. As linear as the second dimmension.
Instancing - While it can have a relevancy, I find when it's overdone it completely destroys the point of the game being an MMO in the first place. Also, I've seen quite a number of posts on various game forums asking for solo instances, what are these people looking for in an MMO anyways? What does this offer over some SP RPG or CO-OP RPG? Why spend years of developement time to make a giant open world when in the end the player is off grinding in some instance over and over? Why spend thousands of dollars on equipment to put everyone on the same server when in the end, the instanced dungeon grinding would be more cost effective running on your own PC for the developer?
I know I will probably get responses telling me there are games out there that do what I am looking for, the problem for me though is I haven't seen one that offers the quality, polish, content, and responsiveness of todays AAA MMOs.
They want to play something like Guild Wars or Diablo where you have social hubs and instanced questing areas. They want an experience that is quick to get into and rewards them constantly for doing nothing like all the ribbons you get in BF3. They don't want to explore vast worlds, have a challenge or do any world content. They certainlly are not interested in the idea of a virtual seamless world like what MMOs tried to offer in the past.
For me an MMO has to have a persistent world that can have a MASSIVE amount of players in any one area. That is the basis of the gameplay because if Planetside 2 only offered 64 player fights and then a social hub to visit it wouldn't be an MMO. Yet we have games these days calling themselves MMOs and they lack any of this.
Every MMO I've ever loved playing has been ruined by all the whiners on the forums. The problem is the developers listen to them, give them what they want and patch by patch we slowly lose the MMO and are just left with a multiplayer game.
It's happening and happened to SWTOR already...
People are already asking for fast travel every, the ability to just warp to any planet from your location. They're already asking for faster vehicles because they hate the travel times which in SWTOR are so small as it is. In beta they added the fleets which basically took everyone out of the worlds and put them in a social hub where they just stay there. Most people now just sit there get groups for flashpoints and battlegrounds and level up on that stuff like what happened to WoW. The worlds have no one in them because these people playing do not want to play an MMO, they just want to play Guild Wars.
We have these amazing cities in SWTOR with no one in them because of that fleet station and it has ruined the MMO in that game. I at least want people to be in those cities and not the fleet station which shouldn't even be in the game in the first place.
What is happening to world PVP now? Well it barely exists outside of the PVP planets and oh look the population cap on them is getting shrunk already. There is even talk about just turning them into bigger battlegrounds like AV. The players on Ilum don't want a world PVP experience, they just want to exploit and farm the game until they ruin it and the developers take out world PVP altogether like what happened in WoW.
Every MMO this has happened to and the last one I truely loved to play (SWG) it happened to that too. Forums whiners slowly got that game dumbed down over time to the point it was ruined well before the CU or the NGE. The CU was the straw and the NGE was just he final Nail, but the truth is that game was well and truely going down the shitter by early 2004.
SWTOR has made me realise that no one wants to play MMOs anymore and I have no interest in carrying on with the genre that clearly died out many years ago. What it has turned into today is all thanx to the casual crowd that WoW brought it and they moaned until they killed that game off too. Mythic had the right idea in not having any forums and the only dveeloper that has managed to keep their MMO true to their vision is CCP, so credit to them for that. I'd watch out though it probably wont be too long before it becomes class and loot based lol.
When I read this, it was with the voice of Sheldon Copper* in my head reading it aloud.
Sure there will always be people who ask for faster travel. The problem is the traveling in SWTOR just flat out sucks. Everywhere I want to go I have to walk down the same 2 boring hallways with lifeless, meaningless NPCs in them.
The run to BRS was never fun .. but it sure didn't make my damn eyes bleed. At least when you get on the transportation in every single other mmo out there .. it is eye catching .. and can be a good time to reply to some tells, or sort your inventory. In SWTOR I have to run through empty hallways to click on doors to run through more empty hallways to click on more doors .. whomever decided this was a good idea needs to find a new career. game design might not be his calling.
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity. I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
@bossalinie I may have lost your point, but lets say in 10 years you rent an action move .. yes guns, fast cars and popcorn is ready, but then it turns out to be about life in a retirement home.
You take the movie back and complains it is not an action movie, but Blockbuster says this is an action movie because other started calling it so, we had to label ours the same for business reasons.
Is this movie now an action movie ? Yes it is to many, but not to you because you have grown up with a different definition.
Which is true then /boggle.
On a side node I have quite alot of days /played in WoW. The strange story about WoW is that it started as a mmorpg but it is in its current state as much anymore, but that doesnt mean I dont enjoy it.
@bossalinie I may have lost your point, but lets say in 10 years you rent an action move .. yes guns, fast cars and popcorn is ready, but then it turns out to be about life in a retirement home.
You take the movie back and complains it is not an action movie, but Blockbuster says this is an action movie because other started calling it so, we had to label ours the same for business reasons.
Is this movie now an action movie ? Yes it is to many, but not to you because you have grown up with a different definition.
Which is true then /boggle.
On a side node I have quite alot of days /played in WoW. The strange story about WoW is that it started as a mmorpg but it is in its current state not really anymore, but that doesnt mean I dont enjoy it.
Sorry about the @ stuff. This site's mobile quote abilities fail.
I would say my point would be that my interest in MMO virtual worlds do not fit me like it did 10 years ago.
I had nothing but time on my hands during UO, AO, and then SWG. Mid SWG, the virtual world took an extreme backseat when IRL hit me like a ton of bricks. Just couldn't put in the time to keep up or participate. I pretty much had quit MMO's because of it. Then CoH, with the help of ventrilo and steam-liek chat programs, hit then scene I was like I can still do the MMO experience without sacrificing anything outside of the game. That lead me to WoW, which sold me back in even more. I didn't even care if people who played more than myself reaped better rewards, but I was just happy that I could enjoy a good chunky of the game when I was online. The rest is history...
New generation themeparks didn't sway my support, life did. I was just fortunately, that there was something out there for me. Unfortunetly for old schools who didn't have my issue, the new gaming experience went viral.
I can't vouch for anyone else, but I seriously doubt that I am the only one who went through this.
They want to play something like Guild Wars or Diablo where you have social hubs and instanced questing areas. They want an experience that is quick to get into and rewards them constantly for doing nothing like all the ribbons you get in BF3. They don't want to explore vast worlds, have a challenge or do any world content. They certainlly are not interested in the idea of a virtual seamless world like what MMOs tried to offer in the past.
For me an MMO has to have a persistent world that can have a MASSIVE amount of players in any one area. That is the basis of the gameplay because if Planetside 2 only offered 64 player fights and then a social hub to visit it wouldn't be an MMO. Yet we have games these days calling themselves MMOs and they lack any of this.
Every MMO I've ever loved playing has been ruined by all the whiners on the forums. The problem is the developers listen to them, give them what they want and patch by patch we slowly lose the MMO and are just left with a multiplayer game.
It's happening and happened to SWTOR already...
People are already asking for fast travel every, the ability to just warp to any planet from your location. They're already asking for faster vehicles because they hate the travel times which in SWTOR are so small as it is. In beta they added the fleets which basically took everyone out of the worlds and put them in a social hub where they just stay there. Most people now just sit there get groups for flashpoints and battlegrounds and level up on that stuff like what happened to WoW. The worlds have no one in them because these people playing do not want to play an MMO, they just want to play Guild Wars.
We have these amazing cities in SWTOR with no one in them because of that fleet station and it has ruined the MMO in that game. I at least want people to be in those cities and not the fleet station which shouldn't even be in the game in the first place.
What is happening to world PVP now? Well it barely exists outside of the PVP planets and oh look the population cap on them is getting shrunk already. There is even talk about just turning them into bigger battlegrounds like AV. The players on Ilum don't want a world PVP experience, they just want to exploit and farm the game until they ruin it and the developers take out world PVP altogether like what happened in WoW.
Every MMO this has happened to and the last one I truely loved to play (SWG) it happened to that too. Forums whiners slowly got that game dumbed down over time to the point it was ruined well before the CU or the NGE. The CU was the straw and the NGE was just he final Nail, but the truth is that game was well and truely going down the shitter by early 2004.
SWTOR has made me realise that no one wants to play MMOs anymore and I have no interest in carrying on with the genre that clearly died out many years ago. What it has turned into today is all thanx to the casual crowd that WoW brought it and they moaned until they killed that game off too. Mythic had the right idea in not having any forums and the only dveeloper that has managed to keep their MMO true to their vision is CCP, so credit to them for that. I'd watch out though it probably wont be too long before it becomes class and loot based lol.
It's not the players fault. People are asking for stuff like quick travel because of bad game design. The open world in a game like TOR is not dangerous. So traveling from one place to another is just tedious for no real reason. If there was a risk or some other gameplay mechanic involved with travel, it would instantly become more interesting and less players would ask for the ability to warp to locations.
Same thing goes for the instancing of cities in TOR. Who cares? You say they're amazing cities, but they aren't. You can't do anything in them. PvP is off limits and there's no player housing, so what difference does it make if it's instanced to hell?
Sorry about the @ stuff. This site's mobile quote abilities fail.
Indeed.
Yup all makes sense and it happens to just about everyone, but remember you are the one who changed and your priorities. You now enjoy something different than before and that is exactly my point. You just dont want to play mmorpgs anymore, you want something slightly different but not completely, and that is very understandable.
This site that used to be so full of interesting stuff, is now so empty to me .. urgh my back, hand me my cane please. But once inawhile I have to speak, knowing fully that no one really listens expect those who agree with me.
Our time is limited so we want to do it fast and move on.
Again.... thats what console games are for. MMOs, True MMOs just arent for those that have a busy schedule. Im sure you could make time to play them here and there but it would/should take you quite awhile to accpomlish what those with more time could. today i see people that want the same things other have only porblem is they dont want to put in the time to get it.
Bottom line is if you dont have time to play MMOs, then there NOT for you.
Our time is limited so we want to do it fast and move on.
Again.... thats what console games are for. MMOs, True MMOs just arent for those that have a busy schedule. Im sure you could make time to play them here and there but it would/should take you quite awhile to accpomlish what those with more time could. today i see people that want the same things other have only porblem is they dont want to put in the time to get it.
Bottom line is if you dont have time to play MMOs, then there NOT for you.
MMORPG - massive multiplayer online role playing game. No part of this definition says "requires time". You tie "massive" to "time devouring", while in reality it's entirely possible to design game that is both massive and very approachable for everyone (just take a look at GW2's large dynamic events or WvW). Bear in mind, I'm not talking about people who want MMOs to be instanced like D3 - they want ORPGs, and they are getting plenty of them (some of them under cover of MMORPG).
I'm talking about people who want hundreds of players having fun in one area, but without some ridiculous time commitment coming with it in package. They want true MMORPG, without some strings you try to attach to it.
Our time is limited so we want to do it fast and move on.
Again.... thats what console games are for. MMOs, True MMOs just arent for those that have a busy schedule. Im sure you could make time to play them here and there but it would/should take you quite awhile to accpomlish what those with more time could. today i see people that want the same things other have only porblem is they dont want to put in the time to get it.
Bottom line is if you dont have time to play MMOs, then there NOT for you.
MMORPG - massive multiplayer online role playing game. No part of this definition says "requires time". You tie "massive" to "time devouring", while in reality it's entirely possible to design game that is both massive and very approachable for everyone (just take a look at GW2's large dynamic events or WvW). Bear in mind, I'm not talking about people who want MMOs to be instanced like D3 - they want ORPGs, and they are getting plenty of them (some of them under cover of MMORPG).
I'm talking about people who want hundreds of players having fun in one area, but without some ridiculous time commitment coming with it in package. They want true MMORPG, without some strings you try to attach to it.
who said a game has to be for everyone? If you dont have the time then you dont need to play. its very simple. If you only have time to do a few quests and go to work, why would you need hundreds of players having fun in one area? your not even goin to speak to them. these people dont want a MMO they want a singel player RPG.
Our time is limited so we want to do it fast and move on.
Again.... thats what console games are for. MMOs, True MMOs just arent for those that have a busy schedule. Im sure you could make time to play them here and there but it would/should take you quite awhile to accpomlish what those with more time could. today i see people that want the same things other have only porblem is they dont want to put in the time to get it.
Bottom line is if you dont have time to play MMOs, then there NOT for you.
I don't buy into the argument that an MMO has to require half of your life. UO was called an MMORPG not an MMOVW. Game is the key.
I'm also not part of the instant gratification crowd. I agree that if you play more, you get more. I'm a 36 year old farmer/factory worker, I know the value of time and work.
The current thempark model fits me fine because I can log in for however long I have and still feel like I've accomplished something. Even if "something" is gaining half of a level or traveling to my next questing destination or competing in a battleground or hanging out talking with my guildies or whatever the heck I feel like doing at the time.
The argument that people who sit in front of a computer playing games for 10 hours a day need their own genre away from people who bathe is rediculous.
I want a mmorpg where people have gone through misery, have gone through school stuff and actually have had sex even. -sagil
who said a game has to be for everyone? If you dont have the time then you dont need to play. its very simple. If you only have time to do a few quests and go to work, why would you need hundreds of players having fun in one area? your not even goin to speak to them. these people dont want a MMO they want a singel player RPG.
Because doing stuff with hundreds of people around is fun? Stop associating "I have limited time and want the game to be approachable and straight fun" with "I enjoy instanced/solo content only" - those two aren't connected at all.
And I'm not saying that every game has to be for everyone. But if there are people who want accessible, massive content, there should be games for them - and as long as they're massive, they are MMORPG.
Comments
Not aimed at you, WhiteLantern
MMOs used to be about time. It took time (good or bad) for everything. It was an "investment" in one's time. A player did not log on for 15 minutes and expect to accomplish much. Players in groups hardly went afk. At least in the groups I was in they did not. There was plenty of down-time to do things like bio breaks and such. Now, "down time" is an evil game mechanic. People signed online and knew they were going to spend some time and "dedicated" themselves to the game.
I know many of you are thinking, "Whatever floats your boat!", but think about it. Name one game where you have a vested interest in your character. What hardships has that character overcome? Did you go to some website to find out how to overcome that obstacle, or did you figure it out yourself? Do the history books write about the Donner Party or the 10th plane that flew from New York to Los Angelos? Do you remember the Super Bowl that had a close score and a good game, or the blowout with mismatched teams?
MMOs used to be about overcoming hardships and investing time in a world that the player actually wanted to spend their time in. It was a bunch of basement trolls playing in a virtual world where the real world was usually not so kind, thus the stigma associated with MMOs. It was an escape. C'mon, now, NOT every player was like this, but the core of old time players were.
Players now-a-days have goals and look for successes with their time played. Players today do not "just go fishing" in a virtual world. They will if there is a daily goal involved, though. Players today do not "just see what's over that hill" unless there is an exploration badge or some other reward involved. I found a guildmate in EQ who was as interested in learning the different languages in the game as I was. We would spend HOURS just sitting and talking to each other in different languages as we taught each other.
I liken this attitude to life today, as opposed to yesteryear. People seem to be always "on the go", hurrying to get to their next destination/appointment/activity. I thnk this bleeds over into their gaming time, too. I don't think many people play just to relax anymore. It's like dating... No one wants to invest the time to get to know each other anymore.
/shrug
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
What I've found is that players dont want to pay $15/month for a heavily isntanced single-player or cooperative-online rpg, which is why we've experienced mass exodus from these STO & SW:TOR types of games within the forst 3 months.
You are missing the point. What someone like or dislike does not matter, but you can't just label any game you love mmo and then its an mmo. I like diablo but I am not calling it an mmo. You could see it as insulting but if you turn it around, it is like someone moved to a new town and began telling the locals what the town is like, so it kindda goes both ways.
"I am my connectome" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA7GwKXfJB0
In another words you dont want an MMORPG the way they used to be and thats fine. I dont need a sandbox. What the OP said has nothing to do with sandboxes either. Everquest was not a sandbox. Asherons Call was not a complete sandbox. It was a mix of themepark and sandbox.
Also, befor you tell someone to grow up maybe you should comprehend what they are saying. The OP is spot on saying games these days arent really MMORPG's. Pretty much everything since WoW has been instanced based with social hubs. WoW was that way but it was large enough to feel at least somewhat open world.
You know what i think the difference is between people that call themselves "old timers" and what they call the new crowd of casual gamers?
Old timers were looking for friends.
Casual people are looking for fun.
2 total different mind sets. Yes, they can combine a bit. But just think of that.
One set is more interested in making long term commitments by looking for friends that game.
And the other is looking for a fun game to play. And will drop the game as soon as the fun stops, with no, or small amount of thought given, to the people that they may have met while playing.
Both gamers, but the mind sets will always set them apart from each other. And the casual is where the investors and dev's are spending the cash.
And i really do not see it ever going back to the old way. And yes on topic:) because the 2 groups see what defines a MMO as completely different as their reasons to game. And neither can really see that they are both right, and wrong.
I think there really is room for both types of MMOs. Heck, I could see myself playing a casual game some days and something deeper with plenty of exploration other days.
The real problem with exploration is that in some games there really isn´t much to explore, moving through a gigantic forrest with just trees and some monsters placed in a certain order isn´t that fun, you need to find stuff to actually explore something. Just small stuff like a rare harvestable flower, a small ruin that looks weird or maybe a rare animal.
I started with Meridian 59 as well. I saw the potential directly but since I still had a dial up at the time I didn´t get so much out of it and didn´t really get stuk in MMOs until a few years later when I got my broadband.
This +1 every store you go in regular retail or specialty gaming the PC selection is shrinking or non existant. A number of MMOs have already worked to cross platform and with the release of next gen consoles rapidly approaching, we're likely to see more and more games become cross platform or console exclusive. Face it console games are easier to develop because the only need to work on one hardware standard. The market majority are casual console gamers who won't spend hundreds to upgrade a PC just to waste hours on one single game. These gamers would rather spend an hour or two playing BF3 or MF3 with family members and friends three States away than 8 hours on a PC sandbox with people they really don't know. Until that changes (and it's not ever likey) the trend will move more to the casual with every passing year.
I think the main issue is people want to play mmo's I am sure alot of them want to do all you said the problem is as the mmo genre has grown more and more ppl are in these games now which also means more and more kiddies and immature adults who berate anything someone does wrong or any mistake from missing crap on the floor in WoW to not doing "enough dps" combine that with no real consquence for that kinda behavior,Yes we has toolbags back in the early mmog days also the difference was you didn't have cross realms and random dungeon finder etc etc and if you burned bridges on your server you were done for so it helped keep players in line as they knew once they got blackballed it was either reroll or never do any end game content.
People have became so critical of others it has made them withdraw and just play solo or with 1-2 friends they feel like they cannot experience the game due to the idiots telling them they are playing there character wrong and berating them non stop.I mean you run a instance in WoW and even if the group is doing well you will have one smarta** in group mouthing off with either worse dps ever,worse tank ever and on and on and on people will only listen to that so much til they just stop wanting to join in on anything due to it.
I know the difference between both. I know the benefits and cons of both. People support which style they want or fits them...and it is entirely possible for the genre to prosper in both. Do you think it would have made a difference if WoW would have labelled itself a MTORPG, or WTFO game, and it would have not affected MMORPGs? Would that make it the deciding factor of whether old MMO players would have touched it?
In my opinion, no. The same games would have been made, but only labeled differently. This thread would still be here today, just worded differently. "What I have realized is that people who are playing WTFOs, do not want to play MMOs..."
If that is how people see it, then you are correct. But wouldn't that only bring up the question of desirability of MMOs?
It is so hard not to step on anyones toes, but here is what I think is the difference between the classic mmorpg players and a gamer.
The classic mmorpg gamer is likely to have played eq, uo, doac or similar. This person was usually turned onto the genre by reading lord of the rings and other fantasi and sci fi books. This person finds the invention of new worlds with new rules extremely fascinating and has a high amount of imagination. This person needs and wants moments of escapism, and for this is using his imagination combined with whatever source he can find, that beeing books, games, movies etc.
In games for this player a kind of roleplaying is important for this to happen, and to be in the "zone of imagination" you cant have too much that constantly sends you out of your escapist moment (very individual how much this is). They need a world that somehow makes sense, and various people may accept more or less of stuff that makes their bullindicator go off. The main thing is they can stay in their escapist moment of imagination.
This is a rough and unfair generalization, but it is not entirely untrue.
I decided not to describe the new gamer, as it would certainly lead to trolling. But I think it is safe to say that the background and reason for playing games is not the same.
Preferences in games will show, and as the classic mmorpg lover I am, I can only define the mmorpg genre from that perspective. I like and play loads of other games, I just hate it when they are called mmorpgs, because to me they are not.
"I am my connectome" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA7GwKXfJB0
And with the current trend of MMOs that have been released, they all encourage solo play. There is nothing in these games anymore that promotes community, and what's left is still being further destroyed.
Cross Server Grouping - No one gives a **** who they're grouped with and probably won't ever see them again, why build a relationship?
Cross Server Raiding - What's the point of a guild now? Run with a guild to do the same content again for +3 more stats to underwater basket weaving, while having to schedule raids out ahead of time? Why bother?
The Death of Crafting - Most of the older MMOs I played had a very tight nit crafting community. Crafted gear was actually worth something and you had to "seek" out a crafter that was able to fulfill your needs. Gear had a quality and durability attribute assigned to it which would affect stats, all crafters were not equal.
Fast Travel/Flying Mounts - While not always a bad thing, is often done to the point where game immersion is lost, the majority of content can be bypassed, and kills world PvP if you're into that kind of thing. World PvP develops community, rivalries just aren't formed anymore. Remember seeing a certain player name or guild and trying to gank them? or trying not to get ganked?
General Hand Holding - Most games tell you exactly what to do now, there's no mystery in it or sense of discovery anymore. Go to "x" quest hub, follow arrow to "y" quest. As linear as the second dimmension.
Instancing - While it can have a relevancy, I find when it's overdone it completely destroys the point of the game being an MMO in the first place. Also, I've seen quite a number of posts on various game forums asking for solo instances, what are these people looking for in an MMO anyways? What does this offer over some SP RPG or CO-OP RPG? Why spend years of developement time to make a giant open world when in the end the player is off grinding in some instance over and over? Why spend thousands of dollars on equipment to put everyone on the same server when in the end, the instanced dungeon grinding would be more cost effective running on your own PC for the developer?
I know I will probably get responses telling me there are games out there that do what I am looking for, the problem for me though is I haven't seen one that offers the quality, polish, content, and responsiveness of todays AAA MMOs.
End Soapbox Rant.
Porn has voice acting, who doesn't skip it?
When I read this, it was with the voice of Sheldon Copper* in my head reading it aloud.
* (from the TV show," Big bang theory" )
....."Shut up Sheldon!"
But don't forget about the ones who started out as classic and over time, migrated to current style because of availability, which is myself.
Sure there will always be people who ask for faster travel. The problem is the traveling in SWTOR just flat out sucks. Everywhere I want to go I have to walk down the same 2 boring hallways with lifeless, meaningless NPCs in them.
The run to BRS was never fun .. but it sure didn't make my damn eyes bleed. At least when you get on the transportation in every single other mmo out there .. it is eye catching .. and can be a good time to reply to some tells, or sort your inventory. In SWTOR I have to run through empty hallways to click on doors to run through more empty hallways to click on more doors .. whomever decided this was a good idea needs to find a new career. game design might not be his calling.
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
@bossalinie I may have lost your point, but lets say in 10 years you rent an action move .. yes guns, fast cars and popcorn is ready, but then it turns out to be about life in a retirement home.
You take the movie back and complains it is not an action movie, but Blockbuster says this is an action movie because other started calling it so, we had to label ours the same for business reasons.
Is this movie now an action movie ? Yes it is to many, but not to you because you have grown up with a different definition.
Which is true then /boggle.
On a side node I have quite alot of days /played in WoW. The strange story about WoW is that it started as a mmorpg but it is in its current state as much anymore, but that doesnt mean I dont enjoy it.
"I am my connectome" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA7GwKXfJB0
Our time is limited so we want to do it fast and move on.
Sorry about the @ stuff. This site's mobile quote abilities fail.
I would say my point would be that my interest in MMO virtual worlds do not fit me like it did 10 years ago.
I had nothing but time on my hands during UO, AO, and then SWG. Mid SWG, the virtual world took an extreme backseat when IRL hit me like a ton of bricks. Just couldn't put in the time to keep up or participate. I pretty much had quit MMO's because of it. Then CoH, with the help of ventrilo and steam-liek chat programs, hit then scene I was like I can still do the MMO experience without sacrificing anything outside of the game. That lead me to WoW, which sold me back in even more. I didn't even care if people who played more than myself reaped better rewards, but I was just happy that I could enjoy a good chunky of the game when I was online. The rest is history...
New generation themeparks didn't sway my support, life did. I was just fortunately, that there was something out there for me. Unfortunetly for old schools who didn't have my issue, the new gaming experience went viral.
I can't vouch for anyone else, but I seriously doubt that I am the only one who went through this.
It's not the players fault. People are asking for stuff like quick travel because of bad game design. The open world in a game like TOR is not dangerous. So traveling from one place to another is just tedious for no real reason. If there was a risk or some other gameplay mechanic involved with travel, it would instantly become more interesting and less players would ask for the ability to warp to locations.
Same thing goes for the instancing of cities in TOR. Who cares? You say they're amazing cities, but they aren't. You can't do anything in them. PvP is off limits and there's no player housing, so what difference does it make if it's instanced to hell?
Indeed.
Yup all makes sense and it happens to just about everyone, but remember you are the one who changed and your priorities. You now enjoy something different than before and that is exactly my point. You just dont want to play mmorpgs anymore, you want something slightly different but not completely, and that is very understandable.
This site that used to be so full of interesting stuff, is now so empty to me .. urgh my back, hand me my cane please. But once inawhile I have to speak, knowing fully that no one really listens expect those who agree with me.
"I am my connectome" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA7GwKXfJB0
Again.... thats what console games are for. MMOs, True MMOs just arent for those that have a busy schedule. Im sure you could make time to play them here and there but it would/should take you quite awhile to accpomlish what those with more time could. today i see people that want the same things other have only porblem is they dont want to put in the time to get it.
Bottom line is if you dont have time to play MMOs, then there NOT for you.
MMORPG - massive multiplayer online role playing game. No part of this definition says "requires time". You tie "massive" to "time devouring", while in reality it's entirely possible to design game that is both massive and very approachable for everyone (just take a look at GW2's large dynamic events or WvW). Bear in mind, I'm not talking about people who want MMOs to be instanced like D3 - they want ORPGs, and they are getting plenty of them (some of them under cover of MMORPG).
I'm talking about people who want hundreds of players having fun in one area, but without some ridiculous time commitment coming with it in package. They want true MMORPG, without some strings you try to attach to it.
who said a game has to be for everyone? If you dont have the time then you dont need to play. its very simple. If you only have time to do a few quests and go to work, why would you need hundreds of players having fun in one area? your not even goin to speak to them. these people dont want a MMO they want a singel player RPG.
I don't buy into the argument that an MMO has to require half of your life. UO was called an MMORPG not an MMOVW. Game is the key.
I'm also not part of the instant gratification crowd. I agree that if you play more, you get more. I'm a 36 year old farmer/factory worker, I know the value of time and work.
The current thempark model fits me fine because I can log in for however long I have and still feel like I've accomplished something. Even if "something" is gaining half of a level or traveling to my next questing destination or competing in a battleground or hanging out talking with my guildies or whatever the heck I feel like doing at the time.
The argument that people who sit in front of a computer playing games for 10 hours a day need their own genre away from people who bathe is rediculous.
I want a mmorpg where people have gone through misery, have gone through school stuff and actually have had sex even. -sagil
The best mmo is the one we are playing right now
mmorpg.com is the best mmo of all
"It has potential"
-Second most used phrase on existence
"It sucks"
-Most used phrase on existence
Because doing stuff with hundreds of people around is fun? Stop associating "I have limited time and want the game to be approachable and straight fun" with "I enjoy instanced/solo content only" - those two aren't connected at all.
And I'm not saying that every game has to be for everyone. But if there are people who want accessible, massive content, there should be games for them - and as long as they're massive, they are MMORPG.