People will complain about the PvP in TOR till the cows come home, but I think there is one major, overriding fact that's not being taken in to account.
TOR was never hyped as a PvP game, was it? It's essentially a PvE game with some PvP tacked on to keep the masses happy.
Those masses are all the people that seem to think any new MMO must have some PvP in it to make it a hit. You see it everywhere. Where's the PvP? What are the PvP factions? What, no PvP?
I don't mind PvP, even though I'm pathetic at it, but TOR has made me seriously meh meh on PvP. I can't stand Huttball, and it's the only warzone I ever get, so I've stopped doing warzones. I like open world PvP but I never see any. I've seen a few republic running about in the high level questing zones but it's only ever one-versus-one (or actually more often two-versus-one in republic favour - they stick together often). I don't find that fun though.
I'm actually wishing I hadn't rolled on a PvP server, mainly because there's no point in having done so. I'm hampered often by republic underdogs sticking together (which I don't blame them for) but the Empire don't look out for each other. I've mentioned in chat before that there's a nuisance jedi causing havoc somewhere and gotten a 'so what' reply. The other day I saw someone say that the Republic were camping a quest hub and the reply was 'yeah, they always do'. Maybe that just echoes that PvP in TOR is a grind taking place in warzones.
The problem is that PvP should be just an add on. It should be carefully thought out and have some meaning. I don't blame BW/EA for this though. I blame the community that insist on every game having PvP. That's what brings this on. BW/EA have no choice but to tack on a bit of PvP or their game will be slated across the spectrum of internet gamers, and more so than it is now. 'No PvP, what the heck'?
People insist on PVP in a game so the devs tack some on. It doesn't work how people wnat it to, even though the game might not be a pure PvPer, and they complain. Do people ever consider that TOR isn't a hardcore PvPer? No, they don't. Should they consider this? Yes, they should.
Let's have games that are designed (from the get go) for PvP or games that aren't. Not games that are 'a bit of this' tacked on.
I'm looking forward to PvP in GW2 because ArenaNet appear to have been really thinking about it. There's the obligatory small team matches and then there's much hyped world versus world battles that pit three servers against each other. It's thought about, not tacked on. And there'll be no under populated faction against an over populated faction.
Just one last point to say I really am enjoying TOR, but I like it for the PvE and the story. I'm seriously bored of the PvP and wish I hadn't rolled on a PvP server.
To be fair, we hear the exact same argument from PvEer's, even on PvP based games. We also hear the exact same argument from Soloers on group based games.
I remember a ton of complaining when WAR first released. Even though it was a PvP focused game, there were constant complaints like "what If I dont feel like grouping, I just want to solo" or the famous "Its not fair that I have to worry about players attacking me while I grind on mobs".
Vanguard and FX got the same complaints about being "forced" to group, even though the devs stated from the beggining, that the game would be group based, and still you guys complain. Recently with all the F2P hype, we PvPers are getting yelled at even more than ever.
I dont see this changing soon either, in fact I would bet my bottom dollar that when PS2 comes out, there will be mobs of players complaining that they keep getting attack by other players, while "exploring". lol?
Personally i think it runs alot deeper than just fixing PVP,they made a big bobo using the hero engine.Anyone who thinks that BioWare have not thought about all these pvp ideas over the 6 years is delusional.They have had devs from DAOC working with them and devs from war.
It's to little to late,the backdrop was set the day they agreed to use the crap graphics engine they built this game on.All this "with time bioware can" blah blah is just wishful thinking,they haven't got time.
Any serious PVP gamer would choose daoc three faction type pvp over swtor and sorry to bring it up but GW2 is that game.
Believe me when GW2 comes out many PVPers from swtor will switch.
BioWare can't turn back the clock and change the hero engine,this is imo what is stopping them going all out on RVR type PVP,the engine can't handle that type of PVP.
I'm sorry, but what has the engine and the graphics got to do with the quality of the PvP? Nothing, that's the answer.
This is just another post targeting the fact that you don't like SWTOR, isn't it?
Why does a graphics engine stop them from doing meaningful RvR?
SWTOR is no true Open World PVP game but rather a Lake PVP game, and Lake PVP together with the concept of Mass PVP will always fail due to faction imbalance (if the game only has two factions) and no matter of buffs or free transfers will change that.
What is needed is to spread people out and have a more skirmish focused PVP, but with todays MMO designs where we don't have to spend time in the world that wont happen.
If you want money, do dailes at these spot
If you want to get better gear do instances
If you want to PvP, do battlegrounds or go to this specific PvP lake.
Whatever you do, DO NOT EVER explore or spend time in the world.
The most fun OPEN world PVP is today almost always found while leveling.
People will complain about the PvP in TOR till the cows come home, but I think there is one major, overriding fact that's not being taken in to account.
TOR was never hyped as a PvP game, was it? It's essentially a PvE game with some PvP tacked on to keep the masses happy.
Those masses are all the people that seem to think any new MMO must have some PvP in it to make it a hit. You see it everywhere. Where's the PvP? What are the PvP factions? What, no PvP?
I don't mind PvP, even though I'm pathetic at it, but TOR has made me seriously meh meh on PvP. I can't stand Huttball, and it's the only warzone I ever get, so I've stopped doing warzones. I like open world PvP but I never see any. I've seen a few republic running about in the high level questing zones but it's only ever one-versus-one (or actually more often two-versus-one in republic favour - they stick together often). I don't find that fun though.
I'm actually wishing I hadn't rolled on a PvP server, mainly because there's no point in having done so. I'm hampered often by republic underdogs sticking together (which I don't blame them for) but the Empire don't look out for each other. I've mentioned in chat before that there's a nuisance jedi causing havoc somewhere and gotten a 'so what' reply. The other day I saw someone say that the Republic were camping a quest hub and the reply was 'yeah, they always do'. Maybe that just echoes that PvP in TOR is a grind taking place in warzones.
The problem is that PvP should be just an add on. It should be carefully thought out and have some meaning. I don't blame BW/EA for this though. I blame the community that insist on every game having PvP. That's what brings this on. BW/EA have no choice but to tack on a bit of PvP or their game will be slated across the spectrum of internet gamers, and more so than it is now. 'No PvP, what the heck'?
People insist on PVP in a game so the devs tack some on. It doesn't work how people wnat it to, even though the game might not be a pure PvPer, and they complain. Do people ever consider that TOR isn't a hardcore PvPer? No, they don't. Should they consider this? Yes, they should.
Let's have games that are designed (from the get go) for PvP or games that aren't. Not games that are 'a bit of this' tacked on.
I'm looking forward to PvP in GW2 because ArenaNet appear to have been really thinking about it. There's the obligatory small team matches and then there's much hyped world versus world battles that pit three servers against each other. It's thought about, not tacked on. And there'll be no under populated faction against an over populated faction.
Just one last point to say I really am enjoying TOR, but I like it for the PvE and the story. I'm seriously bored of the PvP and wish I hadn't rolled on a PvP server.
To be fair, we hear the exact same argument from PvEer's, even on PvP based games. We also hear the exact same argument from Soloers on group based games.
I remember a ton of complaining when WAR first released. Even though it was a PvP focused game, there were constant complaints like "what If I dont feel like grouping, I just want to solo" or the famous "Its not fair that I have to worry about players attacking me while I grind on mobs".
Vanguard and FX got the same complaints about being "forced" to group, even though the devs stated from the beggining, that the game would be group based, and still you guys complain. Recently with all the F2P hype, we PvPers are getting yelled at even more than ever.
I dont see this changing soon either, in fact I would bet my bottom dollar that when PS2 comes out, there will be mobs of players complaining that they keep getting attack by other players, while "exploring". lol?
Well yes, I have to say I agree with you. My post wasn't meant to be a 'get at PvPers', so sorry if it came across like that. I was trying to get across that games need to be what they intend to be rather than appeasing as many groups as possible.
I may not be a hardcore PvPer, but I want to try PS2 and I won't be sitting there screaming that I can't explore...trust me. I'll be out shooting people, or helping my team to shoot people by engineering or crafting or healing for them.
A similar thing goes for hardcore PvP games such as Darkfall. I really thought mechanics sounded interesting in that game, but I wasn't in love with the very hardcore PvP environment so I stayed away.
The community, as a whole, does need to draw itself away from wanting everything in a game. If a game can do everything well, like GW2 seems to have a chance of doing so, then all is good. I just don't think SWTOR was ever meant to be a PvP focused game. People clamoured for PvP and got a half there add on. That's the problem.
Non-force users need mobility. Sage/Inquisitor gets a speed buff. Warriors/Knights get a leap. The non-force users have no mobility, you are basically running around when people are jumping up and running past. This is really bad in huttball, but it works on all the maps. They need to do something to even it out.
And Huttball in general needs to leave. I am so sick of that game, because of the huge faction imbalance on my server I'll get something other then huttball 1/15 times.. In pvp you are basically stuck grinding for gear, most of that pvp is huttball... SO it's basically like I'm playing huttball all the time. whee...
My thoughts, give people something really worth fighting for. Create some sort of territory (make a new planet) where players/guilds can put their own fortresses down and defend them against all comers.
Said fortresses should impart bonuses to the guild, and perhaps if enough fortresses exist impart factional bonuses to encourage everyone to assist each other within the faction.
Make the new planet contain valuable resources that can come from no where else but are extremely valuable, as a bonus make it so crafters can use them to create great new stuff.
Only reward people for fighting and killing, give no reward for just participating by standing around in the battlefield.
Reduce crowd control, it really only belongs in the hands of one or two classes. Reason being, then the focus in any battle will be to kill that person first, and then follow on to the healers.
But make that person's crowd control very powerful, hence the desire to neutralize them quickly. People decry DAOC's CC model but it was better than anything I've seen since, even if it did mean sometimes you were stuck for long periods of time.
None of this is likely to happen btw, maybe in the next game.
Good post. I too hope for all those things, but don't see it coming in SWtor either...
Too much CC (stun, knock down, pulled up, pushed back, slowed, rooted, spun in circles, harpooned, choked). Yeah, all good stuff. You know how you eliminate player skill from PVP? You take away the players ability to do anything i.e. CC
Forced minigame grind
No WZ premade only queue
Too much emphasis on gear over skill
RNG boxes for pvp gear. All your hard work doing the minigame grind is ruined by luck = terrible system
Ilum is beyond terrible. It's nothing but a mindless zergfest and box clicking. It's not world PVP, it's just glorfied empty zone they put together overnight and said 'PVP done, enjoy'. And as for objectives on Ilum? lol. Click on 3 of the enemies droids/structures, 30 seconds later you own the objective? ROFL. Sorry, but Ilum is TERRIBLE.
But my main one... World PVP is next to non-existant, and clearly overlooked in favor of the forced minigame grind model *yawn*.
It's pretty clear that PVP never got much attention, so I really doubt anything is going to change soon. And the fact that they just announced a new SAME SIDE warzone (like huttball), seems they aren't looking at overhauling there terrible pvp system and fixing the unbalanced factions, but rather... add a few more bandaids and hope for the best.
1) Bioware needs to realize they have an awesome built in conflict. Sith vs Jedi. Then add a third faction(In an expansion). Who cares what it is. Something either side can latch onto.
2) Add more open world PvP and make it actually matter. From what I understand they still offer no rewards for open world PvP. No valor gained from killing opposing forces? Really Bioware? That is number two.
3) GIve players free server transfers to imblanced servers. Right now I understand that is the biggest problem on many game servers. To many IMP's. The server loads have been adjusted to accomadate more players supposedly, so let players transfer to a new server free of charge to help balance them out.
4) Add open world PvP objectives. Taking control of points in the worlds means players gain more valor for their side when they control certain points.
5) Add other incentives to participate in open world PvP. Give loot bonuses, exp bonuses, a drop in prices from vendors, cost of skill training could be lowered if you control x number of planets. There are many things they could do to make PvP deeper and more engaging and worthwhile.
6) Add PvP space combat challenges. One side has to defend a convoy of ships, The other side is attacking. Players have to defend a starbase. Again...it doesn't take much to add PvP space if Bioware can allow for open romaing space flight. BTW it can be done. Just as EVE does with their tournaments, just have a huge bubble that will keep players within that area of space. Ifthey venture out of the bubble - their ship is destroyed.
7) If you are going to add BG's at least do them as well as Altrec Valley, Wintergrasp, and Tol Barad. That would go a long way in adding more enjoyable PvP. I have seen my friend play Ilum and that is a sorry excuse for a BG.
There is 7 things right now Bioware could do to help make PvP more interesting.
What I'd like to see from PvP is a hell of a lot more rewards that give you no power advantage, only more options (like how BF3 is). I want a lot more cosmetic gear options that actually look good, gear that gives a bonus to hybrid skill trees or builds other than the typical (5/31/5), or mods for weapons that give them a new sound effects or unique blaster bolt visuals.
1) Bioware needs to realize they have an awesome built in conflict. Sith vs Jedi. Then add a third faction(In an expansion). Who cares what it is. Something either side can latch onto.
2) Add more open world PvP and make it actually matter. From what I understand they still offer no rewards for open world PvP. No valor gained from killing opposing forces? Really Bioware? That is number two.
3) GIve players free server transfers to imblanced servers. Right now I understand that is the biggest problem on many game servers. To many IMP's. The server loads have been adjusted to accomadate more players supposedly, so let players transfer to a new server free of charge to help balance them out.
4) Add open world PvP objectives. Taking control of points in the worlds means players gain more valor for their side when they control certain points.
5) Add other incentives to participate in open world PvP. Give loot bonuses, exp bonuses, a drop in prices from vendors, cost of skill training could be lowered if you control x number of planets. There are many things they could do to make PvP deeper and more engaging and worthwhile.
6) Add PvP space combat challenges. One side has to defend a convoy of ships, The other side is attacking. Players have to defend a starbase. Again...it doesn't take much to add PvP space if Bioware can allow for open romaing space flight. BTW it can be done. Just as EVE does with their tournaments, just have a huge bubble that will keep players within that area of space. Ifthey venture out of the bubble - their ship is destroyed.
7) If you are going to add BG's at least do them as well as Altrec Valley, Wintergrasp, and Tol Barad. That would go a long way in adding more enjoyable PvP. I have seen my friend play Ilum and that is a sorry excuse for a BG.
There is 7 things right now Bioware could do to help make PvP more interesting.
1) A third faction would undoubtedly be comprised of at least Smugglers and Bounty Hunters (an underworld faction, if you will) but we're pretty much past the point of no return on that.
2) You do actually gain Valor for killing players, though this may only apply to killing them in the designated open world PvP areas such as Battle for Ilum and Outlaw's Den. Killing players in random areas of the world on a PvP server doesnt award Valor to my knowledge (someone correct me if I am wrong!).
3) Agreed. It's in the article!
4) This already exists (Ilum). They definitely could use more -- but improving the existing experience and then using that as a baseline for new ones is probably the better course of action.
5) I agree, for the most part. Though I personally prefer the PvP incentives only affect PvP. My own suggestions are, of course, in the article.
6) I don't think space as it is currently implemented really works in a way that allows for this. I'm hoping they do an entirely different space experience in the future that would naturally facilitate co-operative and PvP play.
7) Ilum isn't a BG (or Warzone, in this case). I do enjoy the current set of Warzones, but your mileage may vary here. In any case, a new one will be introduced next month.
Here's one really great spot to start . GET RID OF STUNS. I'm not sure why mmo makers feel that having a stun/hold mechanics are a good idea , it's an even worse idea in pvp. If you want dynamic flowing pvp , get rid of stuns/holds . It's the most exploited mechanic in mmo pvp. If they won't remove it , severely nerf the ability in pvp areas and zones.
1) Bioware needs to realize they have an awesome built in conflict. Sith vs Jedi. Then add a third faction(In an expansion). Who cares what it is. Something either side can latch onto.
2) Add more open world PvP and make it actually matter. From what I understand they still offer no rewards for open world PvP. No valor gained from killing opposing forces? Really Bioware? That is number two.
3) GIve players free server transfers to imblanced servers. Right now I understand that is the biggest problem on many game servers. To many IMP's. The server loads have been adjusted to accomadate more players supposedly, so let players transfer to a new server free of charge to help balance them out.
4) Add open world PvP objectives. Taking control of points in the worlds means players gain more valor for their side when they control certain points.
5) Add other incentives to participate in open world PvP. Give loot bonuses, exp bonuses, a drop in prices from vendors, cost of skill training could be lowered if you control x number of planets. There are many things they could do to make PvP deeper and more engaging and worthwhile.
6) Add PvP space combat challenges. One side has to defend a convoy of ships, The other side is attacking. Players have to defend a starbase. Again...it doesn't take much to add PvP space if Bioware can allow for open romaing space flight. BTW it can be done. Just as EVE does with their tournaments, just have a huge bubble that will keep players within that area of space. Ifthey venture out of the bubble - their ship is destroyed.
7) If you are going to add BG's at least do them as well as Altrec Valley, Wintergrasp, and Tol Barad. That would go a long way in adding more enjoyable PvP. I have seen my friend play Ilum and that is a sorry excuse for a BG.
There is 7 things right now Bioware could do to help make PvP more interesting.
1) A third faction would undoubtedly be comprised of at least Smugglers and Bounty Hunters (an underworld faction, if you will) but we're pretty much past the point of no return on that.
I have seen players asking for a third neutral faction or just another faction in general. I think Bioware could add one. It won't happen over night, but it could be a goal they can shoot for in an expansion. If anything it'll give players another option - and options are always good.
2) You do actually gain Valor for killing players, though this may only apply to killing them in the designated open world PvP areas such as Battle for Ilum and Outlaw's Den. Killing players in random areas of the world on a PvP server doesnt award Valor to my knowledge (someone correct me if I am wrong!).
Only indisgnated areas. I am talking anywhere Imps and Repubs have a chacne to kill one another - anywhere. That is open world PvP.
3) Agreed. It's in the article!
Yep it is...at least we both see this is a must.
4) This already exists (Ilum). They definitely could use more -- but improving the existing experience and then using that as a baseline for new ones is probably the better course of action.
Ilum is just one planet. I am talking all the planets IMP's and Repubs come in contact. Once they leave the starter worlds there should be bases they can hold - anything really that will cause players to engage in PvP.
5) I agree, for the most part. Though I personally prefer the PvP incentives only affect PvP. My own suggestions are, of course, in the article.
6) I don't think space as it is currently implemented really works in a way that allows for this. I'm hoping they do an entirely different space experience in the future that would naturally facilitate co-operative and PvP play.
Well anything right now is better than nothing. Even if the PvP space conflict is just a huge bubble in space, that is better than none at all.
7) Ilum isn't a BG (or Warzone, in this case). I do enjoy the current set of Warzones, but your mileage may vary here. In any case, a new one will be introduced next month.
Well you can hope that that the next battleground is more engaging.
If a company as prolific as the huttball manufacturing companies above has to ask "how," it just means someone at the office got bored.
At best, players will get more instanced huttball experiences. Sure some will have better laser light shows - but in the end it will be a capture the flag mechanic where every class on the lego land battlefield has a mirror.
The problem with 2 faction games is just that THEY HAVE 2 FACTIONS.
This results in one side being overbearing or perceived as the "better" side. Years of complaints by gamers have not resulted in a third faction in any profitable or even pay 2 play mmorpg. While I would like to see that third wild card faction that breaks up the hum drum (rhymes with dum...) of a stalemate pvp system, it just isn't going to happen.
In regards to a bounty hunter smuggler faction being the third - the reality as well is that if SW:ToR broke the mold (no one does this) of the WoW corporate model and made a third faction, they would have plenty of races and classes to choose from. However, since they have already subscribed to making mirror classes for both sides, they would undoubtedly do the same for a third faction.
We would see Moglai warriors who use rage as a mechanic. THere would be a caster class that can heal - and it would have one light saber. etc., etc., etc.
The genre is vanilla. GOod news is a lot of folks love vanilla, otherwise, the WoW corporate model of "Do unto your own game as we have done to ours," would not be profitable.
And by the way, MIKEB the MMORPG.COM Community Manager is spot on. You nailed it. Gods, I wish there were developers with your sense. And c'mon folks, even you free for all so called non care bear pvp games. Aren't you sick of the same old mirrored class cosmetic race 2 faction games? Seriously, I am.
I'll address the third faction bit a little further. There aren't really, in terms of Star Wars, many ways to go with a third faction that doesn't also involve Smugglers and Bounty Hunters, and these are both established in the lore for this particular game as throwing their hats in with the Republic (Smuggler) and Empire (Bounty Hunters). A theoretical third faction would have to include both of these plus two more and again there aren't really many archetypes to choose from that would fit in here. Slicer and Crime Lord were ones I suggested back in 2009, but Slicing has been relegated to a Crew Skill, and I'm not too sure Crime Lord fits in with what I know about the game now.
However, this isn't even really the main issue. When asked in the past, the real reason BioWare didn't go for a third faction was simple: cost. Those of us who love PvP, as passionate as we may be, really only represent a smaller fraction of the playerbase. In order to accomodate us, BioWare would have to create new class storylines and quest experiences for basically a whole new faction. The impetus to do so isn't really there, especially if the main reason is to facilitate PvP in an ideal but not required manner.
You can argue that this is one of the many compromises BioWare had to make in order to give us a story-centric MMO and whether that was ultimately worth it to you, but I really think that anyone hoping for a third faction in an expansion is going to be waiting a long time, or well, forever. Four entirely new classes, eight new main voice actors, four new starships, an entirely new 1-50 quest track with unique sidequests and Flashpoint content -- all to make PvP more ideal? All the existing PvP content and everything developed on the PvP front between now and then would also have to be reworked to take a third faction into account. There are cheaper and more creative ways to work within the current design and the economics involved would point to that as being the most likely option.
I hate having to be the realist here -- but it is what it is. I'd love for a third 'Underworld' faction as much as the next guy. It would make for a great and natural theme for an expansion. Star Wars: Empire at War: Forces of Corruption, anyone? I just don't see it happening. Prove me wrong, Bioware!
I'll address the third faction bit a little further. There aren't really, in terms of Star Wars, many ways to go with a third faction that doesn't also involve Smugglers and Bounty Hunters, and these are both established in the lore for this particular game as throwing their hats in with the Republic (Smuggler) and Empire (Bounty Hunters). A theoretical third faction would have to include both of these plus two more and again there aren't really many archetypes to choose from that would fit in here. Slicer and Crime Lord were ones I suggested back in 2009, but Slicing has been relegated to a Crew Skill, and I'm not too sure Crime Lord fits in with what I know about the game now.
However, this isn't even really the main issue. When asked in the past, the real reason BioWare didn't go for a third faction was simple: cost. Those of us who love PvP, as passionate as we may be, really only represent a smaller fraction of the playerbase. In order to accomodate us, BioWare would have to create new class storylines and quest experiences for basically a whole new faction. The impetus to do so isn't really there, especially if the main reason is to facilitate PvP in an ideal but not required manner.
You can argue that this is one of the many compromises BioWare had to make in order to give us a story-centric MMO and whether that was ultimately worth it to you, but I really think that anyone hoping for a third faction in an expansion is going to be waiting a long time, or well, forever. Four entirely new classes, eight new main voice actors, four new starships, an entirely new 1-50 quest track with unique sidequests and Flashpoint content -- all to make PvP more ideal? All the existing PvP content and everything developed on the PvP front between now and then would also have to be reworked to take a third faction into account. There are cheaper and more creative ways to work within the current design and the economics involved would point to that as being the most likely option.
I hate having to be the realist here -- but it is what it is. I'd love for a third 'Underworld' faction as much as the next guy. It would make for a great and natural theme for an expansion. Star Wars: Empire at War: Forces of Corruption, anyone? I just don't see it happening. Prove me wrong, Bioware!
You make an excellent point. Can't argue with the reality of the way the game is set up and like you said the lore is kind of a hindrance. It sure would be nice to see Bioware prove us both wrong.
"You should have gone with a three faction game!” Sure, I’d be strongly inclined to agree, but at this point that’s not happening"
Why not? If you think for one second that people wouldn'yt jump the Imperial ship for a Mandalorian 3rd faction, you are crazy. If BW introduced Mandalorians as a playable third faction, with mirrored classes of course, the problem would easily sort itself out.
Im perplexed at the question of the article in context to what was delivered. The OP's origonal thought is backwards imho. The elephant in the room is the lack of acknowledgement that this is a single-player rpg/corpg and giving it passing grade as a subscription-based mmo.
The origonal question should remain how to improve this game as a mmorpg first, but by trying to address this bolt-on pathetically deliverd arena third-person shooter pvp while making belive fixing PvP should take foreground conversation is silly.
What did you expect from a cinematic single-player rpg studio in terms of pvp, let alone mmo. Now some are going to spend the next year "hoping" the game turns into what it will never be. . .like STO all over again, and again.
I love how people believe a 3 faction game will fix anything. Anarchy Online was three faction. Neutrals never did crap because GM's and story walked all over them.
Three factions wont do anything if the third faction isnt compelling. Would the Mandlorians be the answer? No. unless you're willing to make them a MASSIVE threat and bring storyline about to break from the Sith and run their own road. Like Ordo's descendent rising to power and telling Malgus to fuck off. If you're going to go three faction you have to potentially consider the VOSS. The storyline allows it. They've got access to force powers and can create a completely new set of classes. The Voss would be an awesome third faciton
And best of all you wouldnt have to go single species would you? Not like the mandalorians (technically)
Factional pride gets killed for at the least trooper by the time you're in act 1. No way around it. The person you work for is a cold-hearted bitch and more than once through the prelude i wanted to blast her face clean off for her decisions. Jedi Knight is significantly better but sentinel suffers from HUGE issues in PVP. The afformentioned CC madness basically makes them a pinball.
Crew Skills: HELL YES HELL YES. Release the BOP locks on the Purple items for each class and let people start selling them add in armor and PVP mods for any group that can make them. Give a new crystal that adds expertise. You can really do something here to make crew skills far more important. (I'm one of maybe 2 people on my server with the Magenta Crit Crystal recipe)
Get rid of the PvE style gear grind that are in most thempark MMOs. LoL isn't perfect, but at least it focuses people on winning. 21/4/15 means nothing if you loose and you're rewrded appropriately for it. Many FPSs also manage to creat diversity between players without totally unbalancing the game before it even starts.
MMOs are the only genre of game where you can begin a match with no hope of winning due to a system design problem.
"You should have gone with a three faction game!” Sure, I’d be strongly inclined to agree, but at this point that’s not happening"
Why not? If you think for one second that people wouldn'yt jump the Imperial ship for a Mandalorian 3rd faction, you are crazy. If BW introduced Mandalorians as a playable third faction, with mirrored classes of course, the problem would easily sort itself out.
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To be fair, we hear the exact same argument from PvEer's, even on PvP based games. We also hear the exact same argument from Soloers on group based games.
I remember a ton of complaining when WAR first released. Even though it was a PvP focused game, there were constant complaints like "what If I dont feel like grouping, I just want to solo" or the famous "Its not fair that I have to worry about players attacking me while I grind on mobs".
Vanguard and FX got the same complaints about being "forced" to group, even though the devs stated from the beggining, that the game would be group based, and still you guys complain. Recently with all the F2P hype, we PvPers are getting yelled at even more than ever.
I dont see this changing soon either, in fact I would bet my bottom dollar that when PS2 comes out, there will be mobs of players complaining that they keep getting attack by other players, while "exploring". lol?
I'm sorry, but what has the engine and the graphics got to do with the quality of the PvP? Nothing, that's the answer.
This is just another post targeting the fact that you don't like SWTOR, isn't it?
Why does a graphics engine stop them from doing meaningful RvR?
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SWTOR is no true Open World PVP game but rather a Lake PVP game, and Lake PVP together with the concept of Mass PVP will always fail due to faction imbalance (if the game only has two factions) and no matter of buffs or free transfers will change that.
What is needed is to spread people out and have a more skirmish focused PVP, but with todays MMO designs where we don't have to spend time in the world that wont happen.
If you want money, do dailes at these spot
If you want to get better gear do instances
If you want to PvP, do battlegrounds or go to this specific PvP lake.
Whatever you do, DO NOT EVER explore or spend time in the world.
The most fun OPEN world PVP is today almost always found while leveling.
Well yes, I have to say I agree with you. My post wasn't meant to be a 'get at PvPers', so sorry if it came across like that. I was trying to get across that games need to be what they intend to be rather than appeasing as many groups as possible.
I may not be a hardcore PvPer, but I want to try PS2 and I won't be sitting there screaming that I can't explore...trust me. I'll be out shooting people, or helping my team to shoot people by engineering or crafting or healing for them.
A similar thing goes for hardcore PvP games such as Darkfall. I really thought mechanics sounded interesting in that game, but I wasn't in love with the very hardcore PvP environment so I stayed away.
The community, as a whole, does need to draw itself away from wanting everything in a game. If a game can do everything well, like GW2 seems to have a chance of doing so, then all is good. I just don't think SWTOR was ever meant to be a PvP focused game. People clamoured for PvP and got a half there add on. That's the problem.
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Non-force users need mobility. Sage/Inquisitor gets a speed buff. Warriors/Knights get a leap. The non-force users have no mobility, you are basically running around when people are jumping up and running past. This is really bad in huttball, but it works on all the maps. They need to do something to even it out.
And Huttball in general needs to leave. I am so sick of that game, because of the huge faction imbalance on my server I'll get something other then huttball 1/15 times.. In pvp you are basically stuck grinding for gear, most of that pvp is huttball... SO it's basically like I'm playing huttball all the time. whee...
Good post. I too hope for all those things, but don't see it coming in SWtor either...
Great article, agree completely. Thanks for writing this!
He who keeps his cool best wins.
heres how, for future MMO developers.
the next time you clone WOW, copy the things it does well - e.g. dungeons
but don't copy the things it does badly - e.g. pvp (and crafting)
same applies to RIFT, not just SWTOR
seriously did anyone expect a story driven wow clone with in a box PVP to have good PVP?
Do a DAOC style pvp. That is the only way to do it. If people want to copy so much from other games, that is the game to copy PVP from.
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Which FF Character Are You?
My main issues -
Faction/side balance
Class balance is terrible
Too much CC (stun, knock down, pulled up, pushed back, slowed, rooted, spun in circles, harpooned, choked). Yeah, all good stuff. You know how you eliminate player skill from PVP? You take away the players ability to do anything i.e. CC
Forced minigame grind
No WZ premade only queue
Too much emphasis on gear over skill
RNG boxes for pvp gear. All your hard work doing the minigame grind is ruined by luck = terrible system
Ilum is beyond terrible. It's nothing but a mindless zergfest and box clicking. It's not world PVP, it's just glorfied empty zone they put together overnight and said 'PVP done, enjoy'. And as for objectives on Ilum? lol. Click on 3 of the enemies droids/structures, 30 seconds later you own the objective? ROFL. Sorry, but Ilum is TERRIBLE.
But my main one... World PVP is next to non-existant, and clearly overlooked in favor of the forced minigame grind model *yawn*.
It's pretty clear that PVP never got much attention, so I really doubt anything is going to change soon. And the fact that they just announced a new SAME SIDE warzone (like huttball), seems they aren't looking at overhauling there terrible pvp system and fixing the unbalanced factions, but rather... add a few more bandaids and hope for the best.
This is just my opinion.
1) Bioware needs to realize they have an awesome built in conflict. Sith vs Jedi. Then add a third faction(In an expansion). Who cares what it is. Something either side can latch onto.
2) Add more open world PvP and make it actually matter. From what I understand they still offer no rewards for open world PvP. No valor gained from killing opposing forces? Really Bioware? That is number two.
3) GIve players free server transfers to imblanced servers. Right now I understand that is the biggest problem on many game servers. To many IMP's. The server loads have been adjusted to accomadate more players supposedly, so let players transfer to a new server free of charge to help balance them out.
4) Add open world PvP objectives. Taking control of points in the worlds means players gain more valor for their side when they control certain points.
5) Add other incentives to participate in open world PvP. Give loot bonuses, exp bonuses, a drop in prices from vendors, cost of skill training could be lowered if you control x number of planets. There are many things they could do to make PvP deeper and more engaging and worthwhile.
6) Add PvP space combat challenges. One side has to defend a convoy of ships, The other side is attacking. Players have to defend a starbase. Again...it doesn't take much to add PvP space if Bioware can allow for open romaing space flight. BTW it can be done. Just as EVE does with their tournaments, just have a huge bubble that will keep players within that area of space. Ifthey venture out of the bubble - their ship is destroyed.
7) If you are going to add BG's at least do them as well as Altrec Valley, Wintergrasp, and Tol Barad. That would go a long way in adding more enjoyable PvP. I have seen my friend play Ilum and that is a sorry excuse for a BG.
There is 7 things right now Bioware could do to help make PvP more interesting.
What I'd like to see from PvP is a hell of a lot more rewards that give you no power advantage, only more options (like how BF3 is). I want a lot more cosmetic gear options that actually look good, gear that gives a bonus to hybrid skill trees or builds other than the typical (5/31/5), or mods for weapons that give them a new sound effects or unique blaster bolt visuals.
Besides the faction imbalances and glitches favoring one side and snares not counting towards resolve.
The big ticket no one seems to mention is input delay/ability lag.
Patch notes say the improved the delay but we'll have to test it out.
1) A third faction would undoubtedly be comprised of at least Smugglers and Bounty Hunters (an underworld faction, if you will) but we're pretty much past the point of no return on that.
2) You do actually gain Valor for killing players, though this may only apply to killing them in the designated open world PvP areas such as Battle for Ilum and Outlaw's Den. Killing players in random areas of the world on a PvP server doesnt award Valor to my knowledge (someone correct me if I am wrong!).
3) Agreed. It's in the article!
4) This already exists (Ilum). They definitely could use more -- but improving the existing experience and then using that as a baseline for new ones is probably the better course of action.
5) I agree, for the most part. Though I personally prefer the PvP incentives only affect PvP. My own suggestions are, of course, in the article.
6) I don't think space as it is currently implemented really works in a way that allows for this. I'm hoping they do an entirely different space experience in the future that would naturally facilitate co-operative and PvP play.
7) Ilum isn't a BG (or Warzone, in this case). I do enjoy the current set of Warzones, but your mileage may vary here. In any case, a new one will be introduced next month.
Thanks for taking the time to respond!
Here's one really great spot to start . GET RID OF STUNS. I'm not sure why mmo makers feel that having a stun/hold mechanics are a good idea , it's an even worse idea in pvp. If you want dynamic flowing pvp , get rid of stuns/holds . It's the most exploited mechanic in mmo pvp. If they won't remove it , severely nerf the ability in pvp areas and zones.
Dark Age of Camelot came out ten years ago.
If a company as prolific as the huttball manufacturing companies above has to ask "how," it just means someone at the office got bored.
At best, players will get more instanced huttball experiences. Sure some will have better laser light shows - but in the end it will be a capture the flag mechanic where every class on the lego land battlefield has a mirror.
/welcome to the era of vanilla.
The problem with 2 faction games is just that THEY HAVE 2 FACTIONS.
This results in one side being overbearing or perceived as the "better" side. Years of complaints by gamers have not resulted in a third faction in any profitable or even pay 2 play mmorpg. While I would like to see that third wild card faction that breaks up the hum drum (rhymes with dum...) of a stalemate pvp system, it just isn't going to happen.
In regards to a bounty hunter smuggler faction being the third - the reality as well is that if SW:ToR broke the mold (no one does this) of the WoW corporate model and made a third faction, they would have plenty of races and classes to choose from. However, since they have already subscribed to making mirror classes for both sides, they would undoubtedly do the same for a third faction.
We would see Moglai warriors who use rage as a mechanic. THere would be a caster class that can heal - and it would have one light saber. etc., etc., etc.
The genre is vanilla. GOod news is a lot of folks love vanilla, otherwise, the WoW corporate model of "Do unto your own game as we have done to ours," would not be profitable.
And by the way, MIKEB the MMORPG.COM Community Manager is spot on. You nailed it. Gods, I wish there were developers with your sense. And c'mon folks, even you free for all so called non care bear pvp games. Aren't you sick of the same old mirrored class cosmetic race 2 faction games? Seriously, I am.
I'll address the third faction bit a little further. There aren't really, in terms of Star Wars, many ways to go with a third faction that doesn't also involve Smugglers and Bounty Hunters, and these are both established in the lore for this particular game as throwing their hats in with the Republic (Smuggler) and Empire (Bounty Hunters). A theoretical third faction would have to include both of these plus two more and again there aren't really many archetypes to choose from that would fit in here. Slicer and Crime Lord were ones I suggested back in 2009, but Slicing has been relegated to a Crew Skill, and I'm not too sure Crime Lord fits in with what I know about the game now.
However, this isn't even really the main issue. When asked in the past, the real reason BioWare didn't go for a third faction was simple: cost. Those of us who love PvP, as passionate as we may be, really only represent a smaller fraction of the playerbase. In order to accomodate us, BioWare would have to create new class storylines and quest experiences for basically a whole new faction. The impetus to do so isn't really there, especially if the main reason is to facilitate PvP in an ideal but not required manner.
You can argue that this is one of the many compromises BioWare had to make in order to give us a story-centric MMO and whether that was ultimately worth it to you, but I really think that anyone hoping for a third faction in an expansion is going to be waiting a long time, or well, forever. Four entirely new classes, eight new main voice actors, four new starships, an entirely new 1-50 quest track with unique sidequests and Flashpoint content -- all to make PvP more ideal? All the existing PvP content and everything developed on the PvP front between now and then would also have to be reworked to take a third faction into account. There are cheaper and more creative ways to work within the current design and the economics involved would point to that as being the most likely option.
I hate having to be the realist here -- but it is what it is. I'd love for a third 'Underworld' faction as much as the next guy. It would make for a great and natural theme for an expansion. Star Wars: Empire at War: Forces of Corruption, anyone?
I just don't see it happening. Prove me wrong, Bioware!
You make an excellent point. Can't argue with the reality of the way the game is set up and like you said the lore is kind of a hindrance. It sure would be nice to see Bioware prove us both wrong.
"You should have gone with a three faction game!” Sure, I’d be strongly inclined to agree, but at this point that’s not happening"
Why not? If you think for one second that people wouldn'yt jump the Imperial ship for a Mandalorian 3rd faction, you are crazy. If BW introduced Mandalorians as a playable third faction, with mirrored classes of course, the problem would easily sort itself out.
Im perplexed at the question of the article in context to what was delivered. The OP's origonal thought is backwards imho. The elephant in the room is the lack of acknowledgement that this is a single-player rpg/corpg and giving it passing grade as a subscription-based mmo.
The origonal question should remain how to improve this game as a mmorpg first, but by trying to address this bolt-on pathetically deliverd arena third-person shooter pvp while making belive fixing PvP should take foreground conversation is silly.
What did you expect from a cinematic single-player rpg studio in terms of pvp, let alone mmo. Now some are going to spend the next year "hoping" the game turns into what it will never be. . .like STO all over again, and again.
I love how people believe a 3 faction game will fix anything. Anarchy Online was three faction. Neutrals never did crap because GM's and story walked all over them.
Three factions wont do anything if the third faction isnt compelling. Would the Mandlorians be the answer? No. unless you're willing to make them a MASSIVE threat and bring storyline about to break from the Sith and run their own road. Like Ordo's descendent rising to power and telling Malgus to fuck off. If you're going to go three faction you have to potentially consider the VOSS. The storyline allows it. They've got access to force powers and can create a completely new set of classes. The Voss would be an awesome third faciton
And best of all you wouldnt have to go single species would you? Not like the mandalorians (technically)
Factional pride gets killed for at the least trooper by the time you're in act 1. No way around it. The person you work for is a cold-hearted bitch and more than once through the prelude i wanted to blast her face clean off for her decisions. Jedi Knight is significantly better but sentinel suffers from HUGE issues in PVP. The afformentioned CC madness basically makes them a pinball.
Crew Skills: HELL YES HELL YES. Release the BOP locks on the Purple items for each class and let people start selling them add in armor and PVP mods for any group that can make them. Give a new crystal that adds expertise. You can really do something here to make crew skills far more important. (I'm one of maybe 2 people on my server with the Magenta Crit Crystal recipe)
Get rid of the PvE style gear grind that are in most thempark MMOs. LoL isn't perfect, but at least it focuses people on winning. 21/4/15 means nothing if you loose and you're rewrded appropriately for it. Many FPSs also manage to creat diversity between players without totally unbalancing the game before it even starts.
MMOs are the only genre of game where you can begin a match with no hope of winning due to a system design problem.
If you don't worry about it, it's not a problem.
See my above post.