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should swtor have built their own engine?

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  • RingbusRingbus None, CAPosts: 36Member

    Originally posted by JeroKane

    Ehh what??  Most of those promotion shots were actually from Gears of Wars currently under development at that time!

    It was one of the showcase games at that time, together with Unreal Tournament 3!

    Maybe you had a crappy computer at that time and couldn't ramp up the graphic options, but I ran both Gears of Wars on Xbox360 and Unreal Tournament 3 on PC at MAX settings and especially Unreal Tournament looked EXACTLY like the promotions shots.

    You almost start to make us believe you work for some butt hurt competitor or something.

    Extensive set of Gears of War direct screengrabs on the Xbox 360:

    http://kineticninja.blogspot.com/2009_01_01_archive.html

    One of the infamous Epic fake marketing bullshots they tried to claim were running on the Xbox 360:

    http://images.wikia.com/egamia/images/e/e7/Gears_of_war.jpg

    Bioware did the exact same thing with their Mass Effect Unreal Engine fake marketing screen shots. There even was one hilarious time where Bioware's employee in charge of uploading preview images to their website accidentally uploaded actual in game Xbox 360 screenshots that looked horrible to usual fake Unreal Engine screenshots. Fans errupted in horror. The Bioware employee apologized for uploading the wrong screenshots and pulled the actual crappy in game ones uploaded the fake marketing bullshots.

    It shouldn't suprise anyone that Bioware is doing the exact same thing with SWTOR and lying about the graphics in their marketing screenshots and footage when the actual in game graphics look nothing like the bogus marketing stuff.

      

  • JeroKaneJeroKane OsloPosts: 5,353Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Ringbus

    Originally posted by JeroKane

    Ehh what??  Most of those promotion shots were actually from Gears of Wars currently under development at that time!

    It was one of the showcase games at that time, together with Unreal Tournament 3!

    Maybe you had a crappy computer at that time and couldn't ramp up the graphic options, but I ran both Gears of Wars on Xbox360 and Unreal Tournament 3 on PC at MAX settings and especially Unreal Tournament looked EXACTLY like the promotions shots.

    You almost start to make us believe you work for some butt hurt competitor or something.

    Extensive set of Gears of War direct screengrabs on the Xbox 360:

    http://kineticninja.blogspot.com/2009_01_01_archive.html

    One of the infamous Epic fake marketing bullshots they tried to claim were running on the Xbox 360:

    http://images.wikia.com/egamia/images/e/e7/Gears_of_war.jpg

    Bioware did the exact same thing with their Mass Effect Unreal Engine fake marketing screen shots. There even was one hilarious time where Bioware's employee in charge of uploading preview images to their website accidentally uploaded actual in game Xbox 360 screenshots that looked horrible to usual fake Unreal Engine screenshots. Fans errupted in horror. The Bioware employee apologized for uploading the wrong screenshots and pulled the actual crappy in game ones uploaded the fake marketing bullshots.

    It shouldn't suprise anyone that Bioware is doing the exact same thing with SWTOR and lying about the graphics in their marketing screenshots and footage when the actual in game graphics look nothing like the bogus marketing stuff.

      

    Ehh.... everyone and their mother knew that shot was from one of the Cinematics lol. Seriously!  It was never advertised as actual ingame graphics.

    But those screens on the blogpost are overdramatised, as I actually played Gears of Wars myself and looked much better than in those shots he is showing! Probably taken on an old TV! and not a HD flat TV!

    What EA/Bioware did with SW:TOR is actually false advertisement... as there on the website they show all their ingame screenshots with full highres textures enabled, while it's not available ingame.

    Ever played Unreal Tournament 3 on MAX settings? It looks a ton better than all those Gears screenshots in that blogspot post.

    Plus, Gears of Wars was one of the promo titles for XBOX360 and they were still struggling in that time with early issues with UE3.0 and XBOX360 OS and firmware itself!

    Gears of Wars 3 looks heaps and bounds better. Mass Effect 2 looks amazing!  And have you seen Batman: Arkham City on both XBOX360 and PC?  Amazing!

    When it comes to MMORPG's.  DCUO looks pretty darn good!

  • xKingdomxxKingdomx SydneyPosts: 1,541Member

    Originally posted by troublmaker

    Epic Games have done so well with their Unreal Engine they ONLY make and configure gaming engines.

    If you are building an MMO you do not have time to build your own gaming engine.

    The only MMO to have built its own gaming engine is Funcom with Age of Conan.  They built this engine for The Secret World and adapted it to Age of Conan to show off their engine.  Oh and of course World of Warcraft.

    EPIC games actually made quite a few single/multiplayer games Bulletstorm, Gears of War series, Unreal tournment, etc

     

    Doesn't EVE online have their own engine as well?

     

    I don't mind Bioware getting licensed on HERO engine, the cloud based work flow seems to be unique and advanced in 2005. But it shouldn't have been used on a MMORPG project first. They should've tried it on like Dragon Age or something first.

    As many posters have said before, tiny amount of devs use in house engines for MMORPG, because MMORPG takes higher amount of optimisation for the engine to work. Even learning to use another engine is hard, you have to learn the programming language, upgrade and modify for project uses.

    Bioware obtaining HERO engine wasn't the wrong move, using it on SWTOR first was.

    How much WoW could a WoWhater hate, if a WoWhater could hate WoW?
    As much WoW as a WoWhater would, if a WoWhater could hate WoW.

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member

    I selected 'unsure'. Writing their own engine would be no guarantee of anything, except maybe having a different set of related or unrelated issues.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • xKingdomxxKingdomx SydneyPosts: 1,541Member

    Originally posted by MMOExposed

    Originally posted by troublmaker

    Very few MMOs can afford the time to make their own engine.  Warhammer Online and Rift used the Gamebryo engine.  DC Universe Online and Global Agenda use the Unreal Engine (with DCUO having Havoc Physics).  SWTOR is using The Hero Engine.  The only other game that used it was Faxion Online which was so terrible it lasted all of four months before closing down.

    Making a gaming engine is not something any game developer will ever want to do.  The companies that make really good gaming engines are rich. Crytek for example (creators of the Cryengine 1, 2, and 3) have seven studios all busy on projects and all profiting heavily.

    Epic Games have done so well with their Unreal Engine they ONLY make and configure gaming engines.

    So yeah, gaming engines is big business.  It is also something that is expensive to make.

    Usually when a new game engine is debuted it doesn't come from a gaming company.  It usually comes from a bunch of MIT type students who have spent 4 years of university working with a research team to develop it.  These gaming engines are debuted at conferences like E3 and are usually shown off at really cheap looking boothes using a pretty crappy home made game rendering that only shows the power the engine has.

    Gaming engines take a long time to develop.  Crytek had an entire studio ONLY working on Cryengine 2 and it took THREE YEARS for them to make it.

    If you are building an MMO you do not have time to build your own gaming engine.

    The only MMO to have built its own gaming engine is Funcom with Age of Conan.  They built this engine for The Secret World and adapted it to Age of Conan to show off their engine.  Oh and of course World of Warcraft.

     

    How did blizzard afford to make their own engines for everything from WC3 to WoW to Diablo. Where did all that money come from?

    If WC3 and Diablo were MMORPG, your argument would've made sense. there is a huge difference in development for online games and MMORPG.

    Plus the fact Blizzard used the same engine for most of their games, justifies them to build their own game engine, licensing each game from another company would've been a huge cost. Starcraft was an upgrade Warcraft II, WoW used a modify WCIII engine, so on and so on. They really just created one engine in the end for all their games.

    How much WoW could a WoWhater hate, if a WoWhater could hate WoW?
    As much WoW as a WoWhater would, if a WoWhater could hate WoW.

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by mithoss

    Originally posted by Mellkor
     


    *lengthy*
     
    They don't need to support post dx9 libraries. A large number of consumers would not have the required hardware use them.
    Thus, The golden mmo rule: Make it run on as many systems as possible to maximize potential customers, and therefore profits.
     


    so basically, Bioware failed miserably at this rule. I have a radeon 5770 an a triple core 3 ghz with 4 gb ram. Guess what? the game runs like shit. What has Bioware to say about this performance problem? They say there are no problems, just old rigs. Biowares *nananana i cant hear you*-policy regarding criticism just baffles me.



    I have a dual core e6750 with an HD5770. The game runs great so long as I cut off the grass and tree clutter. I can cut all the other features up to 'High'. This exact scenario where one machine runs a game fine, and another machine doesn't is endemic to the PC gaming industry. Hundreds of slightly different machines and slightly different chipsets, processors, video cards, etc. leads to quirks.

    Overall though, the game does run fine on millions of machines. Good, even. So they haven't failed at this rule. They just haven't achieved perfection at this rule.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • wizyywizyy Novi SadPosts: 629Member

    They should have done it with CryEngine 2 or 3, like ArcheAge is doing it (with only $ 25 mil budget)

     

     

    ArcheAge Online CBT4 Gameplay Collection Ultra Setting 1080p (by SteparuTV):

    http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL67288C785BA81366

  • AntariousAntarious Greenville, SCPosts: 2,802Member

    I do not honestly believe that they had anyone capable of building an engine for the game.   If they had hired the people needed then it would have added to cost of development long term... and other things would likely have been cut from the game.

     

    As others have said they probably should have gone with a different engine.   The problem is many of the issues with the game (in my opinion) have nothing to do with the Engine and wouldn't have been fixed by using a different engine.   Now if they could undue choices made...

     

    I would say not only should they have gone with a different engine.. but some of the working systems they decided to change during the summer.. shouldn't have been changed.   (to me there is far more to it than an Engine choice but that's a wall of text I will pass on today).

    Moderator's on this site allow certain posters to create endless troll threads. Yet "warn" people for giving recommendations... account *pending* deletion because.. why bother.

  • cscurlockcscurlock Philadelphia, PAPosts: 38Member

    They used this engine because the tools to actually develop the world were easy to use and light years ahead of what was out there at that time and that was their primary concern.  The owner of the hero engine basically already stated this.   They saw the alpha engine tools and said I NEED THIS. 

    Performance with 16 people on the screen was not even a thought in their mind at that time.   They figured they could just go in and fix the issue.  Unfortunately that is not how engines work.  You have to build them from the ground up to be able to handle large scale combat.  

  • TJixleeTJixlee austin, TXPosts: 159Member

    Originally posted by Souldrainer

    Hero engine is trash.  I will never know why they used it.   Unreal 3 engine has potential and they used it for ME3... have no idea why they didn't just add a chat client to it and call that a day.  That engine is a beast!

     

     

    amen brudduh

    image

  • OziiusOziius Baltimore, MDPosts: 1,388Member Uncommon

    I would assume that most of the people saying the engine is trash do not work in the field of Programming, or they are armchair programmers in their parents basements or dorm rooms.

    I cant say the engine is trash, as I'm not a programmer. I do however know for a fact that this game had a ridiculous budget and I cannot believe for a second that a decision to use a shitty engine to save money was made. I would have to logically believe that their engineers knew the capability of the engine and decided it was the best fit for their product. I can say as a player, I'm having minimal to zero issues so far with the way the game plays.


    For those of you alleging the engine is trash, please list some credentials so we can at least verify you know of which you speak. Reading an article about an engine doesn't make you a programmer....lol

  • herculeshercules lancashire,blackpoolPosts: 4,791Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by TROLL_HARD

    I don't know anything about platforms, programming, developing mmorpgs, but here is an article I think some of you have read.

    http://venturebeat.com/2012/01/21/heroengine-is-the-unsung-platform-behind-star-wars-the-old-republic/ 

    One quote from the article, that I'm sure some of you will take issue with:

     

    The Star Wars game proved that the HeroEngine works. ""

     

    I would like to know what some professionals in this area think. If you actually understand the technology here, please break it down for those of us who don't understand the issues.

     

    I post this as an observer. It's an interesting issue and it relates to whether the bugs (delays) will be fixable to a satisfactory degree or not. If not, it goes to the long-term survivability of this game.

     

    yeah i saw that quote too.

  • bfpiercelkbfpiercelk LeRoy, NYPosts: 48Member

    Wouldn't have mattered what engine they used, you can't test the loading that you experience with a released MMO until you actually release that MMO. Nobody has on staff that many testers, and an open beta only tells you so much.

     

    This is why every MMO has teething problems, and anybody who claims otherwise is either a liar or a fanboy lol.

  • WickedjellyWickedjelly Yahoo, COPosts: 4,990Member

    Honestly? I don't know enough about that type of stuff to say for sure.

    What I will say is that when I heard they were going to sue the same engine as what was used in Warhammer I was stunned. Considering all the problems they had in that game that were supposedly because of the engine I was surprised anyone would consider using it again least for these types of games.

    But many said they made a lot of changes to it so it wasn't really the same engine used in Warhammer after all. Gotta say considering how things are panning out I'm not so sure they were right.

    Lot of deja vu to me far as problems that are arising.

    1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.

    2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.

    3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.

  • SpottyGekkoSpottyGekko RotterdamPosts: 3,845Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Wickedjelly

    Honestly? I don't know enough about that type of stuff to say for sure.

    What I will say is that when I heard they were going to sue the same engine as what was used in Warhammer I was stunned. Considering all the problems they had in that game that were supposedly because of the engine I was surprised anyone would consider using it again least for these types of games.

    But many said they made a lot of changes to it so it wasn't really the same engine used in Warhammer after all. Gotta say considering how things are panning out I'm not so sure they were right.

    Lot of deja vu to me far as problems that are arising.

    Warhammer used the Gamebryo engine, which is a totally different product.

     

    Any technical comparison of Warhammer and SWTOR is totally irrelevant, they use DIFFERENT game engines.

  • GdemamiGdemami Beau VallonPosts: 7,865Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by xKingdomx

    Bioware obtaining HERO engine wasn't the wrong move, using it on SWTOR first was.

    Oh really? Do you mind to elaborate why?

  • NaughtyPNaughtyP Edmonton, ABPosts: 793Member

    Originally posted by Praetalus

    I would assume that most of the people saying the engine is trash do not work in the field of Programming, or they are armchair programmers in their parents basements or dorm rooms.

    I cant say the engine is trash, as I'm not a programmer. I do however know for a fact that this game had a ridiculous budget and I cannot believe for a second that a decision to use a shitty engine to save money was made. I would have to logically believe that their engineers knew the capability of the engine and decided it was the best fit for their product. I can say as a player, I'm having minimal to zero issues so far with the way the game plays.

     



    For those of you alleging the engine is trash, please list some credentials so we can at least verify you know of which you speak. Reading an article about an engine doesn't make you a programmer....lol

    I'm a programmer. Even I can't say the engine is good or not lol. Unless you have hands on experience with something over a long period of time you can't really say anything for sure. And I suspect good game programmers are a rarer breed than most people realize. I wouldn't know. I'm neither a good programmer nor a game programmer lol.

    Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.

  • bfpiercelkbfpiercelk LeRoy, NYPosts: 48Member

    Originally posted by NaughtyP

    Originally posted by Praetalus

    I would assume that most of the people saying the engine is trash do not work in the field of Programming, or they are armchair programmers in their parents basements or dorm rooms.

    I cant say the engine is trash, as I'm not a programmer. I do however know for a fact that this game had a ridiculous budget and I cannot believe for a second that a decision to use a shitty engine to save money was made. I would have to logically believe that their engineers knew the capability of the engine and decided it was the best fit for their product. I can say as a player, I'm having minimal to zero issues so far with the way the game plays.

     



    For those of you alleging the engine is trash, please list some credentials so we can at least verify you know of which you speak. Reading an article about an engine doesn't make you a programmer....lol

    I'm a programmer. Even I can't say the engine is good or not lol. Unless you have hands on experience with something over a long period of time you can't really say anything for sure. And I suspect good game programmers are a rarer breed than most people realize. I wouldn't know. I'm neither a good programmer nor a game programmer lol.

     

    "Good" programmers in general are a rarer breed than most people realize haha.

    I don't even consider myself "good" at it but the number of people with far more experience who are far worse than myself was one of the staggering realizations when I was hired.

  • spaceportspaceport CatalunyaPosts: 405Member

    It seems like the Hero Engine has severe issues when there many players on the same place.

    Or more than 10...

    I drop to 10 fps on the fleet, with SWTORs terribad graphics and textures, there is no excuse for it, the game looks like crap and runs like crap.

     

    Look at Tera...

    I played K-Tera and the graphics are much much better than SWTOR, yet when i was part of 50 vs 50 PVP i had NO fps issues.

     

    This isn't a "game vs game" crap or anything like that, just giving an example of a great looking game that runs better than SWTOR, even on huge pvp battles with 100+ players.

    image
    "Esport with tournaments is for hardcore pvp'rs that want to be competitive. Openworld PVP with ganking and griefing is for casuals that just wants their pvp mixed with pve from time to time."
    otacu

  • FrodoFraginsFrodoFragins Manchester, NHPosts: 2,930Member Uncommon

    I voted yes, but my guess is they massively reworked the Hero engine anyway.

     

    The number one priority for this game should have been fluid combat without delays.  No exceptions.

  • WickedjellyWickedjelly Yahoo, COPosts: 4,990Member

    Originally posted by SpottyGekko

    Warhammer used the Gamebryo engine, which is a totally different product.

     

    Any technical comparison of Warhammer and SWTOR is totally irrelevant, they use DIFFERENT game engines.

    My mistake then. For some reason I was under the impression both games used the same engine. Not sure where I got that idea from.

    1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.

    2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.

    3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member

    Originally posted by FrodoFragins

    I voted yes, but my guess is they massively reworked the Hero engine anyway.

    Yep.  And a lot of blame-it-on-the-engine at random isn't making much sense either.

    Bio's got to eat the responsibility on this one, regardless of who wants to point fingers elsewhere.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • PukeBucketPukeBucket Beaverton, ORPosts: 867Member


    Originally posted by hercules
     recall a long time ago some developer saying that each mmo is unique and needs its own engine built for it ,in response to why they abandoned the use of the unreal engine for that mmo.
    Now we have the hero engine which is at best a 2005 engine which was meant for hero's journey but sold as a engine .it was originally designed for a fantasy mmo .
    So how would you rate the hero engine in swtor which i feel is not performing well .lag when more then 30 people on the screen is horrible and  the game for what it looks seems to suck a lot of power.
    what do you think?

    Would making their own engine also include trying to make their own game rather than being just a wow-clone?

    I mean it's obvious by their sell numbers it doesn't matter. They spent money on voice acting and saved on the engine. So yes, I'd like to have seen them make a unique game with a unique engine.

    I don't think that was ever their goal.

    I used to play MMOs like you, but then I took an arrow to the knee.

  • drbaltazardrbaltazar drummondville, QCPosts: 7,987Member
    Set tcpdelacktick to 3.and maybe disable shadow.(yes shadow are bugged in swtor(everywhere)and you should have smooyh game.most game maker don't know how shadow is supposed to work and good luck asking dev to go ask help at microsoft
  • BarCrowBarCrow Tampa, FLPosts: 2,212Member

    Originally posted by VirgoThree

    Originally posted by orsonstfu

    As quoted from a different forum.

     

    Given that the MMO's genre is not new and Bioware has entered into the world of MMO's with SWTOR as its flagship IP.



    I hear a lot of talk from people making representations on how it's hard to make a MMO and there are always glitches and problems, and the devs will sort it out eventually.



    The computer industry must be the only industry where the customer base accepts faults with products



    I raise this:



    If Bioware was a new car company entering in to the car sales world and SWTOR was its shiny new prestige vehicle, would you buy it, after having test driven it?



    Me: Excuse me the radio doesn't work.

    Salesperson: Oh we have a workaround for that. Please plug in your iphone into the shiny usb port and you will hear your favorite tunes.



    Me: The engine keeps misfiring and making strange noises.

    Salesperson: Please provide our engineering department with a complete engine diagnostic so they may look at it in detail and get back to you some time in the future.



    Me: I hit the Gas Peddle and nothing happens for a good second, same thing with the brakes.



    Saleperson: We are aware of this issue and our engineers are working hard to have a fix for that in the future. May I suggest you plan your acceleration and braking in advance. this would help you a lot.



    Me: The rear vision mirror and instrumentation are blocking my field of view and I cant move it. Other car companies let me move those things.



    Salesperson: We spent years designing the dashboard and the instrumentation. you will get used to it. Trust me

    This type of thinking doesn't translate well to user run applications. I do not disagree that consumers should get quality goods, but the car is a single encapsulated product that you are selling. Sure the car is made of multiple parts from multiple manufactures, but those parts are a constant for the manufacturer.

    In software development you are building a product that is meant to hook into multiple environments. You can narrow down the environement by picking OS and general system specs. However, there are still far more variables on a users machine such as hardware specs, drivers, applications installed, malware, and whatever else we can think of. All of these combinations can cause any number of critical defects ranging from performance issues to crashes.

    With that said there are still plenty of defects that do not fall under the machine specific category. I don't care what company they are, unless they have a incredibly simple application they will not ship with out bugs. Given an infinite amount of time developers could always fix/improve their code, but there is a point when a company needs to say enough is enough to maintain profitability.

    Exactly. I don't know why many people can't grasp the fact that software is so completely different than any other product. One of the reasons the Chinese do not pay monthly is they see software as non-existant goods almost. They'll pay as they use but not monthly. A friend who lived in taiwan said it was expalined to him that way..another reason that WOW packaged graphic cards with their game ...not to make sure people had a good gpu to play (as I initially thought) but because they feel they are getting a solid material good for their money...not just "software" or virtual goods. That's how it was explained to me anyway.Software is different and more difficult to trouble-shoot.quality control...and maintain then any product merely by the fludity of its design. The fact that it accumulates problems under various random conditions. To compare it to a "solid" product is useless. Especially for MMOs which..as you said...are plugged in to so many different systems simultaneously each affecting eachother and potentially causing additional problems. Hence why they suffer updates and patches on a regular basis. when you think about it ...they do recall products like baby cribs and automobiles too..but those will kill somebody. Hardly the case with a videogame.

    sorry for the tangent ..lol

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