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Good and Bad factions are outdated, we need something new!!

LucioonLucioon Palm Harbor, FLPosts: 814Member Uncommon

Problems with Faction based MMO

1) Good vs Evil

2) One faction has larger population than others

3) two separate starting zones ( where they never meet till later to prevent griefing)

4) World PVP that has no effect whether Good wins or Evil wins

5) Long Que times based on Whether or not there are people on the other faction

Proposed Fixes

1) Have Game Guild based Factions ( undecided guild, rogue guild ,fighter guild, explorer guild, artisian guild, hunter guild ...etc ) ( all classes can be in any guild, hunter guild hunts, fighter guild fights, rogue guilds steals with all available classes)

2) Since its guilds based, when one becomes larger, everyone other factions can take it on without fear of it becoming too powerful.

3) Different starting zones for classes and races but they all end up at the same place so you are never segregated ( and since its open world pvp, everyone can attack you, and you can attack anyone )

4) Make the guild that wins gain influence within the political scene

5) Since everyone is now basically against another, even in low population servers, it will no longer be a problem.

I don't know if anyone is feeling the same frustration with the two faction with one being good, and another being evil, I just find that we can determine what moral sides we want to choose, but it doesn't have to be based on the faction you choose. Because I can be a evil Hunter that hunts players, or a good hunter that doesn't hunt players.

 

Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.

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Comments

  • GTwanderGTwander San Diego, CAPosts: 6,035Member

    Good and bad are obvious through the identification of their aesthetic styles, and people lean to a faction because of it.

    "That faction looks like they are the bad guys, and I like the way the bad guys look in this game" ~Horde Player

     

    Now picture a game like Deus Ex, if it was online, because I've been thinking about it lately...

    If the choices between factions were just what private security firm you run missions for; Dynacore, Belltower, etc - and they all look the same, as in no visible color palette, and everyone is generic - what do people choose then?

    The name that *sounds* cooler to them, and regardless of the general "air" about one faction over the other.

     

     

    So my end point - the reasonings anyone chooses a faction is vanity.... and it's lame, and I wish I knew how to trick people into thinking harder about the choice. Face it, if you look at a game manual's section about the choice of factions (and races/classes), the pictured characters identifying each will be the sole factor behind your choice. Also, vanity is the sole reason one faction is more popular than the other, do you really think people are more interested in being a dark jedi because it's evil? No, no, no.... it's because of how they look... and the color red...

    Though, Face of Mankind did well in that respect by having each faction *do* something radically different than each other. You might like the armor and color of BoS soldiers, but unless you like being arrested all day, you're better off playing something that actually *suits you*, and people do get over that, eventually.

    Writer / Musician / Game Designer

    Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
    Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture

  • GanatharGanathar MelbournePosts: 143Member

    There are plenty of MMOs without factions like Lineage II, LotRO and the upcoming GW2 and TERA.

  • GTwanderGTwander San Diego, CAPosts: 6,035Member

    Originally posted by Ganathar

    There are plenty of MMOs without factions like Lineage II, LotRO and the upcoming GW2 and TERA.

    Lineage II still allows PK and some races (read; factions) are encouraged to, LotRO has monster play (but it's nothing more than a diversion), and GW2/TERA I have no idear about really, as I haven't played them, but can only hope there is any kind of world PvP in the first place.

    Writer / Musician / Game Designer

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    Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture

  • HolaHolaHolaHola AlbertslundPosts: 68Member

    I think factions overall is a flawed design, as it limits some social/political aspects of MMOs. As stated above games are coming out without factions. But old games like UO also have great success without the use of factions (yes they got 4 factions but its not the same, that a pvp system).

    Playing: League of Legends!

  • WearacupWearacup Houston, TXPosts: 161Member

    I like how people keep proposing ideas that were already done with UO or DAOC (ie the other thread about general chat vs communicating with people on screen and now this faction idea) and then other people come on and say why it won't work. It seems the people who are newer to MMORPG's are craving something that is now considered passe, and the themepark fans are quick to tell them why their sandboxy idea is bad.

    Trammies need to stop polluting the MMORPG landscape. They already have enough games in which to emote hugs and sell garbage by the banks.

  • LucioonLucioon Palm Harbor, FLPosts: 814Member Uncommon

    With your example of Deus Ex, it actually would work in what I am proposing.

    Vanity is one of the top reasons why people choose a faction, but thats because currently, vanity is the only available reason to choose a faction.

    What I am proposing is when you do Guild based factions,  each different guild provides its members with an special boost that benefits their playstyle. Plus some Vanity Gear that makes you proud of the Guild you have choosen.

    Therefore its no longer just Vanity but a decision based on playstyle with the freedom to be evil or good on your terms.

    Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.

  • LucioonLucioon Palm Harbor, FLPosts: 814Member Uncommon

    NON faction MMO does not equal Sand Box MMO, they can still be a Theme Park MMO.

    No reason why it can't

    Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.

  • StonesDKStonesDK SomewherePosts: 1,805Member

    Rift doesn't have a bad or good side. Just two different belief systems. Faith or technology

  • LucioonLucioon Palm Harbor, FLPosts: 814Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Starpower

    Rift doesn't have a bad or good side. Just two different belief systems. Faith or technology

    One is still considered Heretic therefore an Bad side, and the other represented by Angels.

    But still they are segregated from the beginning, without the ability for you to choose if you wanted to be with Faith or Technology as you level up.

     

    Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.

  • GTwanderGTwander San Diego, CAPosts: 6,035Member

    Originally posted by Lucioon

    With your example of Deus Ex, it actually would work in what I am proposing.

    Vanity is one of the top reasons why people choose a faction, but thats because currently, vanity is the only available reason to choose a faction.

    What I am proposing is when you do Guild based factions,  each different guild provides its members with an special boost that benefits their playstyle. Plus some Vanity Gear that makes you proud of the Guild you have choosen.

    Therefore its no longer just Vanity but a decision based on playstyle with the freedom to be evil or good on your terms.

    Guild-based factions are an interesting caveat, and usually cyclical in the overall power-struggle, but you'll notice that in games where there is an extremely dedicated guild - and the finances aren't looking so good - people will scream "favoritism".

    Also, I can vouch that I've been one to join a guild based on how cool it's name sounds... but it actually worked out well in the launch of AoC. It was probably the best guild I'd been in since SWG (after a string of nightmare ones bent on "Rank and File" or littered with personal drama). I'm not one to gamble on guilds anymore because of it, and I have to say it presents a flaw with guild-based supremacy - and said supremacy only being the backlash of people flowing towards a cool sounding name (dead serious).

    A lot of people view guilds a sheer drama, such as myself, and having a faction is sometimes a welcome addition when you don't want to make a serious commitment to a select group of weirdos. Then again, in Face of Mankind the entire faction was a select group of weirdos and there is no advanement unless you could prove you are as insane as they are.

    Anyway, the major reason I won't pay for MO is because of the guild/alliance thing. I've made up my mind that they are all assholes, and since joining them or playing victim is the only option, I do neither. So guild-based stuff like this has just as many problems as faction-based ones... in terms of flawed community and the genuine chaos in-game. I like a lttle stasis sometimes (read; faction balances).

    Writer / Musician / Game Designer

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  • LucioonLucioon Palm Harbor, FLPosts: 814Member Uncommon

    When i say Guild, I don't mean Guild of Friends on Vent, I mean Guilds like Skyrim's Thief Guild, Mage Guild, a club in game that you represent.

    And having a popular Guild that is available as an Secondary Guild.

    For example, you can join the Assassin's Guild or Hunter's Guild then a Secondary Guild

    Because Hunter's Guild Hunts PK'ers and Assassin's Guild PK's or Vice Versa based on how your Guild of Friend's want to play it.

    So you can have Assassin's Guild hunting their own Assassin Members when they get too carried away. And Hunters guild hunting their own Hunters when they bring bad fame to the guild as bounties.

    All this can still be in a Theme Park game, it can all be scripted as a Defense against Griefers. No reason why it has to be Sand Box.

    Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.

  • Sanity888Sanity888 Greenfield, WIPosts: 182Member

    Player-made factions. Eve Online did it, why isn't it used more often?

  • robert4818robert4818 Aurora, COPosts: 661Member

    Originally posted by Lucioon

    Problems with Faction based MMO

    1) Good vs Evil

    2) One faction has larger population than others

    3) two separate starting zones ( where they never meet till later to prevent griefing)

    4) World PVP that has no effect whether Good wins or Evil wins

    5) Long Que times based on Whether or not there are people on the other faction

    Proposed Fixes

    1) Have Game Guild based Factions ( undecided guild, rogue guild ,fighter guild, explorer guild, artisian guild, hunter guild ...etc ) ( all classes can be in any guild, hunter guild hunts, fighter guild fights, rogue guilds steals with all available classes)

    2) Since its guilds based, when one becomes larger, everyone other factions can take it on without fear of it becoming too powerful.

    3) Different starting zones for classes and races but they all end up at the same place so you are never segregated ( and since its open world pvp, everyone can attack you, and you can attack anyone )

    4) Make the guild that wins gain influence within the political scene

    5) Since everyone is now basically against another, even in low population servers, it will no longer be a problem.

    I don't know if anyone is feeling the same frustration with the two faction with one being good, and another being evil, I just find that we can determine what moral sides we want to choose, but it doesn't have to be based on the faction you choose. Because I can be a evil Hunter that hunts players, or a good hunter that doesn't hunt players.

     

    I highlighted the issue I see, and don't like.

    You did not describe OPEN WORLD PVP, you've just described FFA PVP.

    I HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE (as in don't like) FFA PVP.  I think FFA PVP tends to ruin games, divide the playerbase, and essentially cause baby jesus to cry.

    On the other hand, I would LOVE a well done OPEN WORLD PVP.

     

    The primary difference though is best described by using an analogy to First Person Shooters.

    RVR is like Team Death match, Friendly Fire OFF.  If they are on your side, you can't touch them.  The other side gets killed.

    FFA PVP is like Regular Death Match.  If it moves Shoot it.

    OPEN PVP is like Team Death Match, Friendly Fire ON.  Yes, you can shoot your team-mates.  But doing so is not how your supposed to play.

    So long, and thanks for all the fish!

  • fenistilfenistil GliwicePosts: 3,005Member

    No factions at all  - just player's guilds

    or /and

    Dynamic Factions - possibility to change factions ofc with limits to avoid hopping back and forth

    or /and

    Static factions + ability to make player factions

     

    Just random ideas.

  • smoke42069smoke42069 man, NEPosts: 17Member

    Gooder vs Eviler.... I'm a genious. Most innovative thing ever thought of on this forum! Muahahahha

  • maskedweaselmaskedweasel houston, TXPosts: 7,273Member Uncommon

    Fallen earth had 6 factions, none of which were inherently good or evil...  some of course, did things we'd consider being good or evil,  but all in all, they were just trying to settle in the wasteland...  one of the few things I liked about the game.  It was FFA though, so it really didn't matter in the end.

    "Loan me a Dragon I wanna see space"


    image

  • FareasFareas boucherville, QCPosts: 75Member

    3 factions or even better 4 factions for extra drama and backstabbing.

    GW2 doesn't have factions and it matches your server with 2 other servers for world pvp, it also gives a sense of unity to the world. Seems like a very good solution to me.

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by maskedweasel
    Fallen earth had 6 factions, none of which were inherently good or evil...  some of course, did things we'd consider being good or evil,  but all in all, they were just trying to settle in the wasteland...  one of the few things I liked about the game.  It was FFA though, so it really didn't matter in the end.


    They are removing friendly fire and setting factions up to be a little more workable. Your faction will matter.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • maskedweaselmaskedweasel houston, TXPosts: 7,273Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by lizardbones

     




    Originally posted by maskedweasel

    Fallen earth had 6 factions, none of which were inherently good or evil...  some of course, did things we'd consider being good or evil,  but all in all, they were just trying to settle in the wasteland...  one of the few things I liked about the game.  It was FFA though, so it really didn't matter in the end.








    They are removing friendly fire and setting factions up to be a little more workable. Your faction will matter.

     

    Aww   :(    I guess its for the best though. I'll need to come back to it when they do. I'd be interested to see what other changes they'll make.

    "Loan me a Dragon I wanna see space"


    image

  • Paradigm68Paradigm68 New York, NYPosts: 884Member Uncommon

    We don't need something new, just more sandbox.

  • kashiegamerkashiegamer Online City, NYPosts: 263Member

    I hope that factions are defined by philosophies that cannot be regarded simply as good or evil.

     

    I hope a game has more than two factions, then the factions have both pros and cons with regards to their faction philosophy.

     

    For example:

    One faction believes in ends justifies the means, but their end-goal is totally noble (but their means might be destructive).

    One faction believes in strict religous rules, but they have the tendency to become elitist and isolate people outside their factions as "evil".

     

    Game writers can be creative about this--and if they tie the factions to the story: MMO instawin (in terms of factions) for me. :D

     

    My reason for this is that factions shouldn't be based on gameplay or character classes, but rather on player identification and player choice and loyalty. Players should identify their characters with the faction they choose, thus they also tend to develop a loyalty to it--thus enhancing gameplay and immersion.

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  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,452Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by GTwander

    Originally posted by Ganathar

    There are plenty of MMOs without factions like Lineage II, LotRO and the upcoming GW2 and TERA.

    Lineage II still allows PK and some races (read; factions) are encouraged to,

    huh?

    I dont' remember anything other than some lore stuff that barely anyone read about being encouraged to pk other races. If anyting most people didn't read the lore and just formed their own clans. One can take those as "factions" but there are hundreds in game not including odd alliances and rogue players.

    Lotro does actually have factions in a way (@Ganathar) the creeps and the freeps.

  • Paradigm68Paradigm68 New York, NYPosts: 884Member Uncommon

    A better representation would be that both sides think of themselves as good, the other side as evil and the real crux of contention is resources (These are our rocks! I will die to defend the honor of these rocks!*).  This would lead to a much more nuanced take on the motivations and beliefs of each side leading to a deeper... oh right, yeah, of course they go with good/evil. Much easier.

     

    *h/t to Berkeley Breathed.

     

  • laokokolaokoko TaipeiPosts: 2,003Member

    I like faction based MMO.  I just dont' like faction based MMO with only 2 faction.

  • DrakxiiDrakxii Waxahachie, TXPosts: 594Member

    With good lore(ie faction Propaganda) you should be able to make every faction look good and evil at the same time.

     

    What I really wish games would do more is have three factions.

    I will not play a game with a cash shop ever again. A dev job should be to make the game better not make me pay so it sucks less.

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