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interesting post regarding pvp from lead designer Martin Bruusgaard

Comments

  • Skatty2007Skatty2007 Minneapolis, MNPosts: 231Member

    Sounds promising.  From a casual pvp'er who gets bored of the battlegroundswarzoneswtfpoints easily, the only pvp I ever really got into long term (in the mmo's I played) was in Anarchy Online, controlling the faction outposts that gave a small XP bonus to the faction that controlled it.

    I had a vested interest in the outcome.  I don't in today's match-made pvp instances.  /snore

    Meaningfull PvP - something that is largely forgotten in today's MMO in my opinion.  I hope Snow and his team can pull it off in TSW.

    I'm not creative enough to have a signature

  • JimyHumuHumuJimyHumuHumu BilbaoPosts: 250Member

    fantastic read

     

    3: Many players have gotten spoiled. Quite a few players look at their time spent in a game, and unless their character has progressed, it's not worth doing. Every single minute needs to be devoted to character progression and numbers. They have to get X amount of xp, X amount of cash/crafting mats, X token currency etc. Fewer and fewer play something just because it's fun.

     

    couldnt agree more with most of his points, but this one is really spot on. I remember playing some older games where we just used to chill, chat and do some random stuff that absolutely had no effects on our char growth. But it was fun. And imo, its more fun than doing same raid 327 times, just to get the Leet gloves of epic leetness :/

     

  • AzzkickaAzzkicka Lawrencetown, NSPosts: 157Member

    This is a great post and i agree with almost everything he says.  This game is looking very promising.  Finnally a game with 3 factions...

  • JeroKaneJeroKane OsloPosts: 5,353Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by JimyHumuHumu

    fantastic read

     

    3: Many players have gotten spoiled. Quite a few players look at their time spent in a game, and unless their character has progressed, it's not worth doing. Every single minute needs to be devoted to character progression and numbers. They have to get X amount of xp, X amount of cash/crafting mats, X token currency etc. Fewer and fewer play something just because it's fun.

     

    couldnt agree more with most of his points, but this one is really spot on. I remember playing some older games where we just used to chill, chat and do some random stuff that absolutely had no effects on our char growth. But it was fun. And imo, its more fun than doing same raid 327 times, just to get the Leet gloves of epic leetness :/

     

     This is why SWG pre-NGE was so great! Why it had such a great community!

    So many nights we just organised hunting events to just go out with a group of people and go hunt some Rancors or Night Sisters.

    It was just fun, challenging and we did it for the social element! Especially with having a Ranger tagging along building camps and fires to chill out in between fights and afterwards! :)

    Those are the good old times and what made MMO's great!

    Now it's indeed all about progression and loot! Nothing more... nothing less! :-(

  • DaylosDaylos St. Louis, MOPosts: 16Member

    Originally posted by JeroKane

     This is why SWG pre-NGE was so great! Why it had such a great community!

    So many nights we just organised hunting events to just go out with a group of people and go hunt some Rancors or Night Sisters.

    It was just fun, challenging and we did it for the social element! Especially with having a Ranger tagging along building camps and fires to chill out in between fights and afterwards! :)

    Those are the good old times and what made MMO's great!

    Now it's indeed all about progression and loot! Nothing more... nothing less! :-(

    I remember when SWG first started and me and a few others on Corellia (all Novices in our respective proffesions) decided to put together a hunting party to kill one of these:

    http://swg.wikia.com/wiki/Bageraset

    Not for loot, not for xp, but just to see if we could.

    Guess what? He steamrolled us (which is funny if you read the description of the animal =))

    But for me it was one of the most fun times I had in the game.

    Who knows what TSW will be like, but it's gameplay like that that got me into the genre to begin with and would like to see more like it.

  • DaSpackDaSpack BrightonPosts: 583Member

    I ge very optimistic when I can read such wisdom from the games lead designer. He hits the nail on the head. PvP is not douchbaggery or should not be. Those three forms of PvP that TSW will offer sounds veryvery promising.... Even more so when it all will happen as part of 3 faction PvP.

     

    TSW could be the lifesaver for all PvPers.

    The Ultimate Breakdown

  • HighttowerHighttower Alamogordo, NMPosts: 19Member

    I've played a few pvp'ish mmo's. My favorite was Vanguard, FFA server. I was really never good at pvp. But it was so much freakin fun. Depend on the guilds and what kind of pvp "ethics" your guild had you just kinda stuck with it. If you were in a guild that ganked  people and I just happen to pass through a city while you were crafting....POW! I hope you lost some rare mats. But for the most part it was a community with it's own set of social rules. 

    For TSW, I'm seeing a great deal of parallelism with AO. I just hope these warzones have quests to where everyone has to pass through or accomplish a task in.

    I thought it was a good read.

  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    Bag they aren't like tower wars, mote like frontiers in concept
  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member

    deleted - drunk ramblings

  • nerovipus32nerovipus32 dublinPosts: 2,735Member

    pvp should never be a system it should be natural. think tauren mill in wow..players didnt need tokens and trophies that look like giant glowing dildos to pvp. they pvp'ed because it was fun not for rewards. Instanced battlegrounds are the worst thing that has happened to pvp.

  • Entropy14Entropy14 Edmonton, ABPosts: 670Member Uncommon

    I cant agree more 3 FACTIONS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 2 Factions always makes for imbalance, that persists for the lifetime of the MMO, with 3 the dominating faction only dominates for so long then the other 2 join up and throw them to the ground.

     

    Then yes they probably backstab each other, rawr, makes it fun.  

     

     

    Right now on my server on SWTOR I would say its 80% empire , soooooooo boring for PVP, ugh.

  • Skatty2007Skatty2007 Minneapolis, MNPosts: 231Member

    Originally posted by JimyHumuHumu

    fantastic read

    3: Many players have gotten spoiled. Quite a few players look at their time spent in a game, and unless their character has progressed, it's not worth doing. Every single minute needs to be devoted to character progression and numbers. They have to get X amount of xp, X amount of cash/crafting mats, X token currency etc. Fewer and fewer play something just because it's fun.

    I agree, 100% fantastic opinion.

    The only thing about it that gives me pause, is that it's possible the majority of PvP'ers truely do want the "X amount of XP, X amount of cash/crafting mats, X token currency" and are not interested in PvP "because it is fun."

    I just fear that Snow is in the minority, and the ADHD has taken over with sheer numbers, and what used to be a niche is now mainstream.  And that majority is more interested in progression at all costs rather than a fully fledged, impactful, meaningful PvP experience.

    Its a difference of opinion - neither is wrong or right, its just not the way I had hoped the future of MMO's has trended to.

    /rose_glasses=off

    I'm not creative enough to have a signature

  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member

    Originally posted by nerovipus32

    pvp should never be a system it should be natural. think tauren mill in wow..players didnt need tokens and trophies that look like giant glowing dildos to pvp. they pvp'ed because it was fun not for rewards. Instanced battlegrounds are the worst thing that has happened to pvp.

    WOW before it got all raidyfied was fun

    but it wasn't as much fun as DAOC or planetside

  • marcustmarcust AdelaidePosts: 467Member Uncommon

    Slighty disappointed that he hasn't tried Darkfall.

    Interesting ideas though, I hope it is executed well.

     

    I still very much enjoy Lotro, but I'll play this at launch and see what happens.

    Playing: ESO, Submerged
    Favourite games have been: UO, Lineage2, WoW, Darkfall, Lotro, GW2

  • Kaisen_DexxKaisen_Dexx Lee''s Summit, MOPosts: 285Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by JimyHumuHumu

    fantastic read

     

    3: Many players have gotten spoiled. Quite a few players look at their time spent in a game, and unless their character has progressed, it's not worth doing. Every single minute needs to be devoted to character progression and numbers. They have to get X amount of xp, X amount of cash/crafting mats, X token currency etc. Fewer and fewer play something just because it's fun.

     

    couldnt agree more with most of his points, but this one is really spot on. I remember playing some older games where we just used to chill, chat and do some random stuff that absolutely had no effects on our char growth. But it was fun. And imo, its more fun than doing same raid 327 times, just to get the Leet gloves of epic leetness :/

     

    While I agree with the general message of it, I can't fault the players for becoming like this. Developers focused on the "carrot on the stick"/"gear treadmill" progression so much, that other elements (like most social aspects) fell by the wayside. As developers kept pushing the progression model, they were training the playerbase. The current gamer mindset just the natural evolution of that kind of conditioning.

  • HolaHolaHolaHola AlbertslundPosts: 68Member

    I really do not like the ideas of factions overall (3 still a lot better then 2). However he got some interesting points, and seems like TSW could be a game i will try out. For me pvp is the ultimate end game, as you can use years and years to improve skills and tactics as long as the game design allows for it. Heres for high hopes. 

    Playing: League of Legends!

  • MindTriggerMindTrigger La Quinta, CAPosts: 2,596Member

    Originally posted by JimyHumuHumu

    fantastic read

     

    3: Many players have gotten spoiled. Quite a few players look at their time spent in a game, and unless their character has progressed, it's not worth doing. Every single minute needs to be devoted to character progression and numbers. They have to get X amount of xp, X amount of cash/crafting mats, X token currency etc. Fewer and fewer play something just because it's fun.

     

    couldnt agree more with most of his points, but this one is really spot on. I remember playing some older games where we just used to chill, chat and do some random stuff that absolutely had no effects on our char growth. But it was fun. And imo, its more fun than doing same raid 327 times, just to get the Leet gloves of epic leetness :/

     

    It's cool when the game isn't centered around leveling.  In SWG, you could play with new professions and builds because it only took a few days to level cap.  Then you were off to enjoy the many aspects of the game including all the social options.

    A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.

  • sfc1971sfc1971 UtrechtPosts: 421Member

    Originally posted by JeroKane

    Originally posted by JimyHumuHumu

     This is why SWG pre-NGE was so great! Why it had such a great community!

    So many nights we just organised hunting events to just go out with a group of people and go hunt some Rancors or Night Sisters.

    It was just fun, challenging and we did it for the social element! Especially with having a Ranger tagging along building camps and fires to chill out in between fights and afterwards! :)

    Those are the good old times and what made MMO's great!

    Now it's indeed all about progression and loot! Nothing more... nothing less! :-(

    I written far to often about this, about my first Rancor hunt as a Ranger wookie. The preparation, making sure everyone arrived on time for the half hour shuttle ride. Getting told to leave my new speeder behind, it would just be extra ruffage in the rancors menu.

    Slowly, in the pitch dark on foot making our way. Some lights in the dark, a dark jedi, "avoid"... we were 12 and not the thougest things for miles around.

    Then the hunt, massive fights requiring all our skills, even my poor medic skills I had picked up so long ago on planets where the most dangerous thing around was me. 

    Slowly we learned to work as a big group, learned how to attack, how to tear down a nest. Of course, then the over confidence set in. Two nests next to each other, why not do both... one nest was poisoned we found out, we had been told not to take them as a bounty but what could it hurt...

    It hurt! Some ran, this turned out not to be an option. A few of us fought a retreating battle, suddenly my sticky grenade/traps proved useful and a handful of us made it out. I build a camp and musician played music to sooth our nerves, I build some basic medicine to heal us while others gathered some resources for me. A few stragglers arrived, we set out to retrieve our fallen and recovered before heading back, making a detour around rancor valley as we now called it. Wiser now.

    ---

    That is something few MMO's have managed to do for me.

    BUT there is something important here, both me and the others who posted on this bit of nostalga are talking about PvE... for that matter, for PvE in SWG there were no factions, rebels imperials and neutrals fought as one.

    Personally, I think PvP is doomed and any game that focusses on it is doomed. The evidence? Name a succesful PvP MMO. Equal to WoW and no WoW is not a PvP game.

    PvP is insanely hard to get right and even harder to make fun. Pvp fans slobber all over a game wishing to make it harder and harder and less forgiving until the few of them remain lurking with stealth chars in uber spec waiting for the perfect gank.

    That one of the designers of TSW talks fondly of doing just that, laying in wait for the perfect gank, that doesn't bode well for me at all.

    The fundemental flaw with this kind of PvP is that it relies on other paying customer to be your entertainment...

    If you enjoy ganking you need to find people who enjoy being ganked... good luck with that.

  • Black-MagicBlack-Magic SydneyPosts: 99Member Uncommon

    Personally i think that if snow and the rest of the team pull this off its going to be epic. Time will tell i guess... here is to hoping

    image
  • rpgalonrpgalon canilPosts: 430Member

    That one of the designers of TSW talks fondly of doing just that, laying in wait for the perfect gank, that doesn't bode well for me at all.

    The fundemental flaw with this kind of PvP is that it relies on other paying customer to be your entertainment...

    If you enjoy ganking you need to find people who enjoy being ganked... good luck with that.

    fight clubs with FFA PvP....

    warzones/arenas, where teams with 5/5/5 or 10/10/10 players fight for the objectives...

    PvP zones with 100+ players where the factions fight to control the "anima"....

     

    you can't attack players in places where they kill monsters, main cities, etc....

    so, there is no gank in this game.

     

     

  • Crunchy221Crunchy221 Trollsberg, ILPosts: 489Member

    Well im glad you posted this comment by a lead developer.

    I cant believe how much i agree with just about everything that he said...all of it

     

    My guess is that they are doing a Anarchy online style of pvp...which is good....that game had great pvp before pvp was the main focus of a game.  Faction wide buffs based on pvp outcomes...my only hope is that they have the same player cities that anarchy had and have them be able to be seiged ect.

     

    Anyway, im still dissapointed that the game seperated the pve and pvp maps and areas...so hard to get use to the non full loot ffa pvp...so much more exciting for what would normally be a boring pve related task.

    Either way, my largest concern with TSW was going to be that it had only themepark type pvp and that it would be too "safe" for my likings....reading that guys post on the games forum makes me think someone who has the same views on themepark pvp is going to make the right choices, however were still talking themepark pvp....but ive learned long ago that what i like is something that is near death in mmorpgs and not tolerated by todays community.  Ill gladly settle if its good.

  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    Sfc
    You correctly state wow isn't a pvp game
    But then go onto mention your stereotypical wow "l33tRouge" (sic) player in the same post.

    I think there is demand for pvp, if you fo back to pre wow games with a pvp focus did just as well as those with a pve focus.

    Games like lol are doing great

    The problem is pvpers have been thrown scraps of late, its either copy wows pretty bad pvp and somehow make it worse - e.g rift
    Or copy eve and totally mess it up with buggy game and the magic missing somehow.

    This year we are seeing a few games that are taking a daoc style approach to pvp, mixed with.fully developed pve game, tsw being one of them.

    Regardless tsw isn't a pvp game, but also its not a raid grinder with tacked on pvp to tick a marketing box
  • JeroKaneJeroKane OsloPosts: 5,353Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by sfc1971

    SNIP

    PvP is insanely hard to get right and even harder to make fun. Pvp fans slobber all over a game wishing to make it harder and harder and less forgiving until the few of them remain lurking with stealth chars in uber spec waiting for the perfect gank.

    That one of the designers of TSW talks fondly of doing just that, laying in wait for the perfect gank, that doesn't bode well for me at all.

    The fundemental flaw with this kind of PvP is that it relies on other paying customer to be your entertainment...

    If you enjoy ganking you need to find people who enjoy being ganked... good luck with that.

    I think you are confused with "GRIEFING", which is extremely bad and has given PVP in MMORPG's a very bad name!

    The constant danger of being ganked out of nowhere is actually what causes you to be on your toes at all times and gives a sertain thrill during playing.

    Hence, why I loved my time in WoW pre-TBC on one of the RP-PVP servers. It was Epic and it was fun, except the ocasional idiots griefing low level zones and graveyards.... but that aside, it had been a great experience.

    As TSW will have no levels and no real death with graveyard respawns.... I am sure they can keep "griefing" to a minimum and with three factions actually make PVP a great and fun addition to this game.

    TSW might actually and finally be an MMORPG where I will enjoy PVP again.

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