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they do survays but usually it is with a small group of people which is meant to portray the idea(s) of the masses. In their defence there is a fine line to get the perfect game as in is very much up to ones opinion, in saying that though taking a step back and stop thinking THEY know what is best for the masses and start listening to the opinions (because if an idea is good the masses will flock to that idea!)
A game is said to be good if it has features that X or Y people like and they are implemented well.
Every game has been designed to target people that like X or Y features - without exception.
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar A game is said to be good if it has features that X or Y people like and they are implemented well. Every game has been designed to target people that like X or Y features - without exception.
And yet most of the fail, even if many X Y Z Q W E R T features anre implemented well, or doesnt "implemented well" also mean "fitting the big picture and being meaningful" ?
The reason that games fail is they copy the market leader. Fall short of doing the things the market leader does well.
Lets take WoW and SWTOR.
SWTOR looked at wow and EA was like lets shoot for having everything WOW does but we'll add a spin Voice Overs to it.
So the game plays like WoW, quests like wow, pvp's like WoW.... but it does all those things worse than WoW does. The only improvement over WoW is the fluff addittion of voice overs.
What they don't seem to be understanding is that if a player wants to play WoW - they will play WoW.
The fundamental problem they all seem to have is that they think they can do WoW better than WoW and they ALWAYS fail.
Originally posted by Banaghran Originally posted by VengeSunsoar A game is said to be good if it has features that X or Y people like and they are implemented well. Every game has been designed to target people that like X or Y features - without exception.
Yep they do, just like most businesses fail. However they still designed them with the idea of attacting X player because X player likes X function.
They either mis-interpreted what X player likes, or the game was just crappy, or bad marketing or any other meriad reasons.
But they area all implementing things they think that player would like.
Originally posted by mgilbrtsn I was wondering how game companies who obviously have put a lot of time and money into a game, can so miss the mark on what the gaming community wants.
Mostly because gamers don't all want the same thing.
Check out the perpetual sandbox/themepark thread.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Originally posted by Icewhite Originally posted by mgilbrtsn I was wondering how game companies who obviously have put a lot of time and money into a game, can so miss the mark on what the gaming community wants.
And yet we always get the same game, that should really tell the devs something.
I don´t really think that the sandbox Vs Themepark debate is relevant here. The problem is more that more or less all devs try to remake the same game because it made lots of money but that means they only target the fans of that certain game who already are playing that game.
Time to make a game for people who want something different as well, those people should be easier to get because they don´t have a zillion similar game competing for their attention.
"fitting the big picture and being meaningful" is just wishy washy vague talk.
There are many reason why some games fail, just as with every other product. My personal opinion is that game companys in certain cases skip testing all areas of the game enough, or they do not now how to test the different parts in the right manner.
So how can that be? Well first of all it is time consuming, resource heavy and requires expertise from the right people. There is a lot of people educated in the field of HCI (well a lot is not really true), but few educated specfically for testing and designing games. However skipping the part of proper testing has showed over and over again in software development to be fatal to the projects.
Talking about education and games leads me too the second problem. Game design and testing as a specfic field is realatively new compared to many others. This means that some people in the business came through other doors into game design. However this dosent mean that they cannot be brilliant at what they do. Just that some people might lack some tools/a foundation which you can get from a high degree of education.
Last thing i will point out is that i think companys really need to re-think their target groups. Limiting the target group will ofcause make the game more niche, but also much easier to fit too the needs of the players. So yes, maybe they will not make the same profit WoW does. But a playerbase of lets say 200K loyal players can still turn out with great profit, and as the market grows so might the player base.
Just my 5 cent on a really complex topic.
Playing: League of Legends!
Maybe the problem is they do survey people. Can you imagine if they did market research on this site, christ almighty the resultant game would be a clusterfuck of epic proportions.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Originally posted by nariusseldon "fitting the big picture and being meaningful" is just wishy washy vague talk.
Well, would you ever use a otherwise good crafting system in a game, if everything could be bought from NPCs for cheap?
Originally posted by bunnyhopper Maybe the problem is they do survey people. Can you imagine if they did market research on this site, christ almighty the resultant game would be a clusterfuck of epic proportions.
Well if they did a market research on this site they clearly did not know their target group at all.
This is quite possibly the best post i have ever seen on this site.
Originally posted by mgilbrtsn I was wondering how game companies who obviously have put a lot of time and money into a game, can so miss the mark on what the gaming community wants. I'm not talking about nitpicking every little thing a game does right/wrong, becausee those are always up for debate. Instead I'm wondering at a more Macro level. Star Trek Online and Champions online come to mind. Its obvious that a lot of money was spent on them. The quality shows. However, they are so far off the mark on what players wanted, that they just fail to attract the masses. I know that politicians and others do a lot of market surveys and focus groups to help them make decisions. Do game companies not do this? Just cruious.
This topic has been discussed for years now. Literally the past 8 years it has been like this...
There are many reasons i think, but mainly, it is Business reasons, getting Funding for a game is not easy if you cannot convince the investors, and the investors have tables and data that they pull out on you which show the numbers of what "most" players will like and will not like.
When all the investors use the same Criteria...it is obvious that all games that require funding will end up being the same game with same gameplay just with different story, models and colors.
Independent Innovation is not an option for most Dev teams and Designers.
Originally posted by BanquettoOriginally posted by OnomasPolls, forums, etc. Just look at some of the polls here, and youwill see what so many would like. But they settle for dumbed down games and just go along with it.
Base your game on what people on the mmorpg.com forums demand.
I sit on a man's back, choking him and making him carry me, and yet assure myself and others that I am very sorry for him and wish to ease his lot by all possible means - except by getting off his back.
It's money! The cause of and solution to any game's problems.
Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.
Seriously i think they listen to sites such as this one much to often.
Have a vision i say and see it throught! Don't try and match the vision to alll the flock in these places
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
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Originally posted by OnomasI personaly feel many dont even know what a MMORPG should be or what it use to be like.
Let me guess... You are the one who knows what MMORPG should be or what it use to be like because your opinion is superior to others for some random arbitrary reasons....
Originally posted by Loke666I am pretty sure people didn´t want STO & CO. The fact that both have gone F2P and that most players left after the first month told us that.Besides that I amnot sure people do even know what they want in a new game. Heck, I don´t exactly know what I want before I see it either, I just know that I want something that is fun and different.
So you do not even know what you want yourself, yet you are sure what others do not want... Nice.
Originally posted by mgilbrtsnI'll tell you the truth. I'm not sure what 'the community' wants.
And once again...you do not know what players want, yet you know that companies are not delivering it? I guess you have an access to analysis you accuse STO and CO devs should have made. Do you mind to share some of the content of that research?
As for some more of your baseless assumptions:
The fanatics are pretty much one sided. Themepark gamers do not care about sandbox games but it does not work the same other way round. Sandbox fanatics are truly threatened by any themepark game released as it means their own type of game is being further more neglected and their voices not heard.
The troll on these boards are fair example, especially SWTOR boards these days...
Originally posted by Gdemami The fanatics are pretty much one sided. Themepark gamers do not care about sandbox games but it does not work the same other way round. Sandbox fanatics are truly threatened by any themepark game released as it means their own type of game is being further more neglected and their voices not heard.
Even if we somehow accept , that this is true (i see a similar number of people arguing both ways), can you really blame them (us) ?
Themepark or Sandbox exclusive games are nearly nonexistent these days, even if we would actually be able to agree on the definitions, and if a game attracts some people of the sandbox crowd (if there is such a thing), sandbox aspects are the first thing to go in the long run, and the number of angry people increases again...
Originally posted by Banaghran Originally posted by Gdemami The fanatics are pretty much one sided. Themepark gamers do not care about sandbox games but it does not work the same other way round. Sandbox fanatics are truly threatened by any themepark game released as it means their own type of game is being further more neglected and their voices not heard.
I think I have to stick with my assessment, although I did mean for these to go both ways. I wasn't trying to make one side or the other seem 'more' fanatical. Like all generalizations, it doesn't fit everyone or even most people. Its just one liitle fish in this MMO pond.
The question really becomes what should be an MMO game companies strategy to get the good intel they need. I'm hesitant to say 'listen to gamers.' I agree they have to go to gamers, but what I mean by my hesitation is that if you listen to every swinging richard, a game would never get made. You would have to establish some criteria on a focus group that you could get good solid info from.
Concentrate on enjoying yourself, and not on why I shouldn't enjoy myself.
Apart from what i posted earlier:
Todays games are all about fighting....fight to get gear, fight to get money, fight to get levels, fight to get titles, fight fight fight.
I am 100% sure there are a lot, and i mean really A LOT, that love to craft all day. Todays kids shiver and call it mind numbing boredom, but it's a large group, larger than is recognized. No WOW or RIFt crafting, but back to the days of Daoc, EQ or Vanguard.
Same goes for housing (not some portal to a remore housing location, brrrrrr) but actually an integrated part of the actual world .
Give us something else to do than fighting (grinding) all day long. Make it an integrated part of the game, not some after thought....
Yes, that requires you, the developpers, to actually think and make something original...well, that's what i pay 15 bucks a month for, for something original that works and is fun. If i wanted to play wow, rift, or any clone look alike, newsflash: i wouldn't buy YOUR game.
Currently playing browser games. Waiting for Albion Online, Citadel of Sorcery and Camelot Unchained.Played: almost all MMO pre 2007
companies want their game to be as successful as WoW , and they fail miserably, they better wait for Titan, maybe by then they will learn something out of Blizzard lol
So making surveys, what ? Ok, let's make a survey, why don't we "survey" ... this thread !
How hard can this be ? Any volunteers ? OP ? Anyone ?
75 replies till now on the OP's original simple question: "how come companies get it so wrong"
lets see, answers:
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