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Bioware's noob?

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  • oubersoubers bazelPosts: 876Member Common

    Originally posted by TROLL_HARD

    Its fixed now, cant we just leave it at that?

     

     But it's not really fixed now, because people got valor by exploiting. When THAT is fixed, then the problem will be fixed. 

    Who cares? instead of whining about it you should be grinding those BG's for valor.

    Or is it just the fact that someone else got more valor then the thing you cant live with?

    Wake up call: there will always be someone better out there.

    PS: alot of exploiters are prolly getting banned and /or stipped of some of their valor points.....so relax, all will be good :)

     

    image
  • DistopiaDistopia Baltimore, MDPosts: 16,915Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by channel84

    DId i misinterpret you? (see those red highlight)

    Well why don't you answer a simple question before questioning my understanding for the game mechanic

    "Is valor important in the game"

    Yes or No

    No need to beat around the bush, a yes or no will sufice

    Yes and no what's important are loot bags, which are RNG.

    As for valor,  I've heard it doesn't take all that long to hit 60 anyway. Many had already achieved that long before this. I've seen you say you don't play and only came around to see if you should buy, I think that's why he questioned your understanding. If your basing it all on the negativity being thrown around here, good luck with that, no one actually discusses how the game actually works. They're too busy fighting.

    Valor is more or less as important as dark-side/light-side points, or social points.

    One thing to keep in mind is the devs have said,  the high end PVP isn't really fleshed out yet, 1.1 was the start of that fleshing out, valor may become more important or less it's hard to say.

    My info comes from what I've heard on guild vent more or less, so consider that of course, I'm only level 30.

    Also for those saying those who are benefitting from this are getting off Scott Free, (green)

    Hey ZaneKaiser, we just checked with our ToS team and no action was taken against you. Our team is actively investigating those that took extreme advantage of the situation on Ilum, but you, personally, have not been actioned against.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

    It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  • DistopiaDistopia Baltimore, MDPosts: 16,915Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Yamota

    Originally posted by Distopia


    Originally posted by Yamota


    Originally posted by dimmit77

    Are you guys saying that an MMO has bugs/exploits/loopholes? 

     

    I am shocked !!!!!!

     

    Regardless of how good TOR is , just reading the posts of the people who hate it has been the great enteraintment. 

    There are bugs and then there are obvious design flaws. Not having diminishing returns and not be safe at spawn points are not bugs, exploits or whatever, it is just careless development where obvious things are not addressed.

    Regarding Valor gains, with the 1.1 update, players now receive a base reward of 20 Valor per unique enemy player defeated in a short time, and this base reward is modified by the number of objectives that the player’s faction owns. The gains are rate limited per player killed, encouraging players to attack unique players, not to pursue vendettas. http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=197991

    "Players can no longer enter the opposing faction’s safe base area, thus preventing players from continually "camping" the other faction's base." http://www.swtor.com/patchnotes

     

     

    And your point is? This patch was AFTER the game was released and we are talking about fixing obvious things before you release the game. That is what beta testing is for.

    The first part was in before the fact (with 1.1)..they said all along these features would not be in until after launch. This issue didn't come about until 1.1. Beta is moot...

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

    It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  • TROLL_HARDTROLL_HARD Caucasian/WhitePosts: 312Member

    Originally posted by oubers

    Wake up call: there will always be someone better out there.

     Yeah, but, how is that "better"?

     

    If you don't understand what I'm asking you, there is really no point in trying to explain. Cheers.

  • youngkgyoungkg dallas, TXPosts: 357Member
  • channel84channel84 CyberjayaPosts: 585Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by dubyahite

    Originally posted by channel84


    Originally posted by dubyahite


    Originally posted by channel84


    Originally posted by dimmit77

    Are you guys saying that an MMO has bugs/exploits/loopholes? 

     

    I am shocked !!!!!!

     

    Regardless of how good TOR is , just reading the posts of the people who hate it has been the great enteraintment. 

    So far what i'm seeing from fans today are

    @Slampig : It's ok for games company to f**k ups

    @Dubyahite: It's ok for empire to farm republic and gain max valor rank, nothing big deal

    @Dimmit77: It's normal to expect bugs/exploit/loopholes in mmo

     

    Zzz...lame game with lame supporter. I came back to mmorpg.com last few days to check on ToR and see if i wanna get it, then i see talk about Hi rez debacle which i didn't know much about but i do withness the massacre in illium, founder title fiasco, dissappearing cancel subription act, heavy censorship in forum, WSJ stock disaster preview and lame fanboy plugging leak in tortanic.

    Well i guess i need to either forget about ToR or wait another few month.

     

    Hey, I didn't say it was ok for Empire to farm Republic, what I'm trying to point out is that you guys are freaking out about the wrong thing.  Thanks for misrepresenting what I said, but I guess I need to be a little clearer. 

     

    Valor is not as important as you make it sound. The gear doesn't come directly from valor. You can have all the valor in the world, but it won't really get you any gear.  

     

    The gear comes from bags. When talking about Ilum, the bags come from daily quests/weekly quests. These have nothing to do with valor. The quests are now completed by killing the opposite faction.  

     

    It is the quickest way to get some champion/battlemaster bags each day/week.  So when you guys are screaming about valor farming, you're missing the point.  It shows how little you understand of the actual game mechanics.  

     

    If I could go exploit my way to valor 60 right now, all I would get out of it is a Battlemaster title and the ability to open battlemaster bags. The only way to get battlemaster bags is by doing ilum dailies/weekly and doing the wz daily/weekly.  You can get a total of  2 battlemaster bags off the daily each day, and 2 from the weekly I believe. Or you can choose to get champion bags if you're not high enough to get the battlemaster.  They have a random chance (very low chance) to drop gear. 

     

    These people aren't farming valor as much as they are farming the quests.  

     

    Learn about the mechanics of the game before you complain about them. Thanks. 

    DId i misinterpret you? (see those red highlight)

    Well why don't you answer a simple question before questioning my understanding for the game mechanic

    "Is valor important in the game"

    Yes or No

    No need to beat around the bush, a yes or no will sufice

     

     

    Is valor important? Yes. 

     

    Thx for the honest answer. 

  • smh_alotsmh_alot Area 51Posts: 976Member
    Originally posted by Yamota


    Originally posted by oubers




    And your point is? This patch was AFTER the game was released and we are talking about fixing obvious things before you release the game. That is what beta testing is for.

    yeah they made a mistake.....you prolly never EVER made a single mistake in your life?

    Its fixed now, cant we just leave it at that?

     

    No. This is not a "misstake" it is neglect. Anyone with half a brain, or played WAR or any MMORPG with PvP, would know these would be issues.

    The fact that Bioware either did not know it, or did not care enough about it, cannot simply be chalked up to a misstake. If I go to a restaurant and get a bug in my soup, that is not a misstake that is pure neglect. Getting too much salt would be a misstake.

     

    Ah, the analogies, they never prove anything but so enlighten and entertain.

    I mean, we know that exploits, unfair imbalances or follow up fixes never happened in all former MMO's like in WoW, WAR etc, right? Devs of other MMO's always knew what unwanted effects were of their design changes and patches, and therefore always had it 100% as it should be all the time >.>

    Exploits and required followup fix ups happen in all MMO's, people whine, rinse and repeat.
  • dubyahitedubyahite Lincoln, NEPosts: 2,483Member

    Originally posted by Distopia

    Originally posted by channel84



    DId i misinterpret you? (see those red highlight)

    Well why don't you answer a simple question before questioning my understanding for the game mechanic

    "Is valor important in the game"

    Yes or No

    No need to beat around the bush, a yes or no will sufice

    Yes and no what's important are loot bags, which are RNG.

    As for valor,  I've heard it doesn't take all that long to hit 60 anyway. Many had already achieved that long before this. I've seen you say you don't play and only came around to see if you should buy, I think that's why he questioned your understanding. If your basing it all on the negativity being thrown around here, good luck with that, no one actually discusses how the game actually works. They're too busy fighting.

    Valor is more or less as important as dark-side/light-side points, or social points.

    One thing to keep in mind is the devs have said,  the high end PVP isn't really fleshed out yet, 1.1 was the start of that fleshing out, valor may become more important or less it's hard to say.

    My info comes from what I've heard on guild vent more or less, so consider that of course, I'm only level 30.

    Also for those saying those who are benfitting from this are getting off Scott Free, (green)

    Hey ZaneKaiser, we just checked with our ToS team and no action was taken against you. Our team is actively investigating those that took extreme advantage of the situation on Ilum, but you, personally, have not been actioned against.

    You are spot on with this post Distopia. Valor is of minimal importance.

     

    I would say it's more important than ds/ls and social, but not by much. 

     

    Like he said, getting PvP gear is all about the RNG in this game. For better or worse, it's a dice game. You either get gear you need out of a bag or you don't. Or sometimes you get 4 earpieces in a row.  

     

    The absolute freakout over valor farming or "exploiting" from the very beginning when the servers came up after 1.1 made me laugh right away.  

     

    I absolutely couldn't believe that people were demanding rollbacks over something as meaningless as valor. The problem is that it started with a few troll posts, and somehow it spread throughout the consciousness of many of the people that don't like this game.

     

    In a short time, every pvper that has been playing for a while will have capped their valor. There are two kinds of people in this game when regarding valor.  People who have hit 60, and people who haven't. There's really nothing in between.  

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  • dubyahitedubyahite Lincoln, NEPosts: 2,483Member

    Originally posted by channel84

    DId i misinterpret you? (see those red highlight)

    Well why don't you answer a simple question before questioning my understanding for the game mechanic

    "Is valor important in the game"

    Yes or No

    No need to beat around the bush, a yes or no will sufice

     [the other 350 words I wrote that provided the context required to understand what I stated here but were erased from this quote by Channel84]

     

    Is valor important? Yes. 

     

     [the other 350 words I wrote that provided the context required to understand what I stated here but were erased from this quote by Channel84]

    Thx for the honest answer. 

    My god. Am I on Fox News? This is the Hannity Report isn't it. 

     

    No wait, it's the Daily Show right? It has to be.  

     

    Seriously. Context. It matters. 

     

    Edit to add: Since you can't tell what I'm saying. No. I don't think valor is that important outside of one function:  allowing the character to equip the best pvp gear in the game. That is it's only function. 

     

    Here, I made it shorter for you:

     

     

    Is valor important? Yes. It opens up the battlemaster gear. Is it more important than dailies and weeklies? Absolutely not. 

     

     I'm saying it's not as important as you think it is. Yes you need valor 60 to open battlemaster bags, but that's all it really does for you. That's about the only advantage you get from it. Attaining valor 60 is not that hard through legitimate means, and during the time you are working up to it, you're gaining lots of pvp gear. 

     

     

    I even through in some red words.


     

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  • EduardoASGEduardoASG AzoresPosts: 832Member

    when people had to farm valor for almost 1 month doing warzones to reach the battlemaster rank playing the underdog faction, they dont find funny nor unimportant the oposite faction getting the same amount the valor in 1 day..

    its legitimate that those individuals feel cheated and stop supporting the company who allwed this to happen using the only possible method.. wich is to cancel their subscription.

    we all can say like.. yes.. but will it affect your gameplay so much?

    answer is simple.. yes it will, because other than some buggy raids and dungeons going under some funny military terminology, the best gear a player can get is through pvp.

    ~ D R A G 0 N . S L A Y E R S ~ Aion, AoC, AC, AO, DDO, Eve, Eq2, GW, MW3, L1&2, RF, RIFT, SWG, SWTOR, TR, UO, WOW, WAR

  • dubyahitedubyahite Lincoln, NEPosts: 2,483Member

    Originally posted by EduardoASG

    when people had to farm valor for almost 1 month doing warzones to reach the battlemaster rank playing the underdog faction, they dont find funny nor unimportant the oposite faction getting the same amount the valor in 1 day..

    its legitimate that those individuals feel cheated and stop supporting the company who allwed this to happen using the only possible method.. wich is to cancel their subscription.

    we all can say like.. yes.. but will it affect your gameplay so much?

    answer is simple.. yes it will, because other than some buggy raids and dungeons going under some funny military terminology, the best gear a player can get is through pvp.

    I understand what you guys are saying about this. I'm not trying to condone cheating at all. I report every single person I see trading kills on Ilum not matter what.

     

    What I am saying is this, you guys are complaining that they are getting valor when you should be complaining that they are cheating to get gear. 

     

    Sigh. 

    Shadow's Hand Guild
    Open recruitment for

    The Secret World - Dragons

    Planetside 2 - Terran Republic

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    http://www.shadowshand.com

  • potapithikospotapithikos AthensPosts: 178Member

    Originally posted by youngkg

    http://i.imgur.com/qWHN6.jpg

     

    lol.....

    Bioware should have just stuck to making nice gayfests. PvP is really not their thing.

  • oubersoubers bazelPosts: 876Member Common

    Originally posted by EduardoASG

    when people had to farm valor for almost 1 month doing warzones to reach the battlemaster rank playing the underdog faction, they dont find funny nor unimportant the oposite faction getting the same amount the valor in 1 day..

    its legitimate that those individuals feel cheated and stop supporting the company who allwed this to happen using the only possible method.. wich is to cancel their subscription.

    we all can say like.. yes.. but will it affect your gameplay so much?

    answer is simple.. yes it will, because other than some buggy raids and dungeons going under some funny military terminology, the best gear a player can get is through pvp.

    If this is realy the case.....then i am going to start the same threat that we PVE players are being disscriminated by bioware for getting even gear as the PVP players right away.....why cant we pve have gear that is as good as the pvp'rs have??? you tell me that....and you feel you have been wronged huh?

     

    image
  • oubersoubers bazelPosts: 876Member Common

    Originally posted by dubyahite

    Originally posted by EduardoASG

    when people had to farm valor for almost 1 month doing warzones to reach the battlemaster rank playing the underdog faction, they dont find funny nor unimportant the oposite faction getting the same amount the valor in 1 day..

    its legitimate that those individuals feel cheated and stop supporting the company who allwed this to happen using the only possible method.. wich is to cancel their subscription.

    we all can say like.. yes.. but will it affect your gameplay so much?

    answer is simple.. yes it will, because other than some buggy raids and dungeons going under some funny military terminology, the best gear a player can get is through pvp.

    I understand what you guys are saying about this. I'm not trying to condone cheating at all. I report every single person I see trading kills on Ilum not matter what.

     

    What I am saying is this, you guys are complaining that they are getting valor when you should be complaining that they are cheating to get gear. 

     

    Sigh. 

    ^^ THIS ^^ +1

     

    image
  • EduardoASGEduardoASG AzoresPosts: 832Member

    Originally posted by oubers

    Originally posted by EduardoASG

    when people had to farm valor for almost 1 month doing warzones to reach the battlemaster rank playing the underdog faction, they dont find funny nor unimportant the oposite faction getting the same amount the valor in 1 day..

    its legitimate that those individuals feel cheated and stop supporting the company who allwed this to happen using the only possible method.. wich is to cancel their subscription.

    we all can say like.. yes.. but will it affect your gameplay so much?

    answer is simple.. yes it will, because other than some buggy raids and dungeons going under some funny military terminology, the best gear a player can get is through pvp.

    If this is realy the case.....then i am going to start the same threat that we PVE players are being disscriminated by bioware for getting even gear as the PVP players right away.....why cant we pve have gear that is as good as the pvp'rs have??? you tell me that....and you feel you have been wronged huh?

     

    and you would be absolutely right about it.

    the best way to get pve gear shouldnt be through pvp playing. i agree.. thats another of their flaws.

    the whole concept of pvp gear vs pve gear is an old debate.. should pvp gear only work in a pvp enviroment? should pve gear be useseless in pvp? should the best gear only be provided to those willing to spend countless hours raiding?

    ~ D R A G 0 N . S L A Y E R S ~ Aion, AoC, AC, AO, DDO, Eve, Eq2, GW, MW3, L1&2, RF, RIFT, SWG, SWTOR, TR, UO, WOW, WAR

  • DistopiaDistopia Baltimore, MDPosts: 16,915Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by EduardoASG

    when people had to farm valor for almost 1 month doing warzones to reach the battlemaster rank playing the underdog faction, they dont find funny nor unimportant the oposite faction getting the same amount the valor in 1 day..

    its legitimate that those individuals feel cheated and stop supporting the company who allwed this to happen using the only possible method.. wich is to cancel their subscription.

    we all can say like.. yes.. but will it affect your gameplay so much?

    answer is simple.. yes it will, because other than some buggy raids and dungeons going under some funny military terminology, the best gear a player can get is through pvp.

    At this point it's too early to say how many will be punished for the exploit/issue.

    Also: No one is saying those who feel cheated shouldn't turn around and unsub, each to their own.

    I'm a lieutenant in a republic PVP guild I've not heard of losing anyone as of yet. No one even mentioned it at all in the hours I was in game tonight and the usuals were all on, server still packed as well (fatman). The only reason I'll care is if my guild or allies/adversaries start losing people to this issue.

    Still it must be reiterated, Valor gives you no gear...The gear comes from dailies and RNG. In and of itself valor gets you nothing.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

    It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  • EduardoASGEduardoASG AzoresPosts: 832Member

    Originally posted by Distopia

    At this point it's too early to say how many will be punished for the exploit/issue.

    Also: No one is saying those who feel cheated shouldn't turn around and unsub, each to their own.

    I'm a lieutenant in a republic PVP guild I've not heard of losing anyone as of yet. No one even mentioned it at all in the hours I was in game tonight and the usuals were all on, server still packed as well (fatman). The only reason I'll care is if my guild or allies/adversaries start losing people to this issue.

    Still it must be reiterated, Valor gives you no gear...The gear comes from dailies and RNG. In and of itself valor gets you nothing.

    err.. valor gets you access to an higher rank of gear.. instead of picking champion bags as reward from your dailies, you will start picking battlemaster bags.

    And.. about people leaving or not.. you can always check this : http://www.swtor.com/server-status

    Most servers are light after yesterday.. lets see how it evolves in the next few days.. ofc BW can always cut down the population limits to change its looks..

    ~ D R A G 0 N . S L A Y E R S ~ Aion, AoC, AC, AO, DDO, Eve, Eq2, GW, MW3, L1&2, RF, RIFT, SWG, SWTOR, TR, UO, WOW, WAR

  • youngkgyoungkg dallas, TXPosts: 357Member

    ToR pvp is hardcore....this is worse than darkfall.

     

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TL0kDP_Cexo&feature=player_embedded

     

    These poor guys have a right to be pissed lol.

  • DistopiaDistopia Baltimore, MDPosts: 16,915Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by EduardoASG

    Originally posted by Distopia

    At this point it's too early to say how many will be punished for the exploit/issue.

    Also: No one is saying those who feel cheated shouldn't turn around and unsub, each to their own.

    I'm a lieutenant in a republic PVP guild I've not heard of losing anyone as of yet. No one even mentioned it at all in the hours I was in game tonight and the usuals were all on, server still packed as well (fatman). The only reason I'll care is if my guild or allies/adversaries start losing people to this issue.

    Still it must be reiterated, Valor gives you no gear...The gear comes from dailies and RNG. In and of itself valor gets you nothing.

    err.. valor gets you access to an higher rank of gear.. instead of picking champion bags as reward from your dailies, you will start picking battlemaster bags.

    And.. about people leaving or not.. you can always check this : http://www.swtor.com/server-status

    Most servers are light after yesterday.. lets see how it evolves in the next few days.. ofc BW can always cut down the population limits to change its looks..

    It is 6am in the morning so I hope you're not making a point about "people leaving".

    My server still hit heavy tonight (Fatman: us East  coast PVp) was on from 9pm-2 am pop was fine, that's really all that matters to me. IF you don't expect servers to be lighter as time goes on, I don't know what to tell you, I'm under no delusion the game will be "huge". Like I said it's really only my experience that matters to me. The game being huge or not plays no part in that.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

    It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  • oubersoubers bazelPosts: 876Member Common

    Originally posted by EduardoASG

    Originally posted by oubers

    Originally posted by EduardoASG

    when people had to farm valor for almost 1 month doing warzones to reach the battlemaster rank playing the underdog faction, they dont find funny nor unimportant the oposite faction getting the same amount the valor in 1 day..

    its legitimate that those individuals feel cheated and stop supporting the company who allwed this to happen using the only possible method.. wich is to cancel their subscription.

    we all can say like.. yes.. but will it affect your gameplay so much?

    answer is simple.. yes it will, because other than some buggy raids and dungeons going under some funny military terminology, the best gear a player can get is through pvp.

    If this is realy the case.....then i am going to start the same threat that we PVE players are being disscriminated by bioware for getting even gear as the PVP players right away.....why cant we pve have gear that is as good as the pvp'rs have??? you tell me that....and you feel you have been wronged huh?

     

    and you would be absolutely right about it.

    the best way to get pve gear shouldnt be through pvp playing. i agree.. thats another of their flaws.

    the whole concept of pvp gear vs pve gear is an old debate.. should pvp gear only work in a pvp enviroment? should pve gear be useseless in pvp? should the best gear only be provided to those willing to spend countless hours raiding?

    omho there should be no such this as pve or pvp gear.....gear should not even be important imo....the skills ingame should be primary.....if you wanr pure dps stats for pvp then you should do just that, if you want HP stats for raiding then they should.

    But thats mho. 

    image
  • dubyahitedubyahite Lincoln, NEPosts: 2,483Member

    Originally posted by oubers

    Originally posted by EduardoASG


    Originally posted by oubers


    Originally posted by EduardoASG

    when people had to farm valor for almost 1 month doing warzones to reach the battlemaster rank playing the underdog faction, they dont find funny nor unimportant the oposite faction getting the same amount the valor in 1 day..

    its legitimate that those individuals feel cheated and stop supporting the company who allwed this to happen using the only possible method.. wich is to cancel their subscription.

    we all can say like.. yes.. but will it affect your gameplay so much?

    answer is simple.. yes it will, because other than some buggy raids and dungeons going under some funny military terminology, the best gear a player can get is through pvp.

    If this is realy the case.....then i am going to start the same threat that we PVE players are being disscriminated by bioware for getting even gear as the PVP players right away.....why cant we pve have gear that is as good as the pvp'rs have??? you tell me that....and you feel you have been wronged huh?

     

    and you would be absolutely right about it.

    the best way to get pve gear shouldnt be through pvp playing. i agree.. thats another of their flaws.

    the whole concept of pvp gear vs pve gear is an old debate.. should pvp gear only work in a pvp enviroment? should pve gear be useseless in pvp? should the best gear only be provided to those willing to spend countless hours raiding?

    omho there should be no such this as pve or pvp gear.....gear should not even be important imo....the skills ingame should be primary.....if you wanr pure dps stats for pvp then you should do just that, if you want HP stats for raiding then they should.

    But thats mho. 

    No way. The easiest way to get PvE gear is Eternity Vault. That place is a free loot party. 

    Shadow's Hand Guild
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  • KillyoxKillyox WroPosts: 424Member Common

    They are too busy copying WoW to think themself. I just hit 40 [i started 2-3 weeks after official release]  and encountered shitloads of bugs already.

  • ShivamShivam MilanPosts: 465Member

    Originally posted by Tardcore

    Originally posted by Shivam

    Exactly Bioware is noob. You, i and everyone else are such experts. That is why i am sitting here complaining while they are actually engaged in making games.

     

    You know, I may not be a professional pastry chef, but I can still tell when an aforementioned professional pastry chef f*cked up and used salt instead of sugar. Same thing with MMO players who even though they have never created an MMO themselves, still know that being endlessly spawn camped in what is supposed to be a safe zone, for mad valor points to the campers, is not a fun nor balanced game mechanic. To my knowledge none of the people who work at this very site that gave SWTOR an 8.7 rating have ever worked to create an MMO either. Does that then mean that said 8.7 rating has no relevance what so ever? Of course not. Nice strawman argument though.

    Bioware made a mistake, they admit this FACT and took steps to rectify the problem. Good for them. People can decide to keep supporting them or decide their money could be better spent elsewhere.

    Either way their decision is not in the hands of a seemingly obsessed apologist such as yourself. And thank goodness for that, becuse if all they were capable of was spitting unconstructive abuse and venomous egotism like you do, instead of actually expressing any ideas of their own, they'd soon have no customers left.

     

     

    There is difference between a critic of of pastry chef and then there is being an arrogant dbag. Unless you go to chef and tell him 'you are such a noob' i obviously know better and when chef asks you to show him, you shurg and run away. Everyone is an expert on internet no doubt but anonymity of internet plays a big role in being a jerk.

    You think i am an apologist and i think you and OP just lack civility and manners.

     

    You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty -- Mahatma Gandhi

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