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Finally ready to get off the theme park ride
jpnole
Member UncommonPosts: 1,698
I am old enough to have played the first mmos but I didn't get started until 2005 with WoW. Since that time I played GW, AOC (max level), COH (40s and several alts), Rift (max level) and SWTOR (level 21). By no means am I a mmo vet like some folks on here, but I've played my share. Rewind to Rift. I bought a 6 month sub somehow thinking that it was a different game. It was like I was under a spell. After a month and a half, I hit max level, maxed out my crafting and suddenly it dawned on me that I was just going through the motions. I didn't play for most of the remaining 4 months of my sub time. Now with SWTOR, I had the same burnout at the 3 week mark. I was only level 21 but I maxed out a crafting tier and had the same realization. Fortunately, I only had 30 days of included box time so I was able to cancel today. I realized that I was just chasing that carrot on a stick. No matter what the game, whether you are level 5, 10, 50 or max level, you are on an endless treadmill with no purpose other than to hit the next level, tier, etc.
I think I am finally ready to say good bye to the same tired old theme park formula and just wait for the right mmo to come out. Who knows when it will be. Due to the SWTOR beta and early access, I didn't get a chance to fully explore Skyrim so at least I have that to provide some sandbox entertainment, albeit non-mmo. I can't count the number of times I saw someone trash theme park games in favor of sandbox games on here.... now I understand why. I never played any of the pre 2005 sandbox mmos so I feel like I have missed out. Maybe Archage will be that game. Do we even know enough about TSW, Tera or GW2 to determine if they will be just the same old formula? I am no longer going to be a paying lab rat for these mad scientist theme park mmo creating devs. No more carrots!
Comments
no idea bout TSW but Tera and Guild wars will definately not be sandboxes. Tera i know for sure cause i've played it and i'm pretty sure GW2 will be exactly like GW1 with better graphics.
you'll be waiting a long time for a good sandbox my friend because the last few attempts by indy companies have failed miserabely (DF, MO, Wurm, Xsyon, etc). big companies are not interested in niche sandboxes.
i highly doubt ArcheAge will be any different either.
mainstream dictates production and right now it's all theme park my friend.
i would like to add that, much like you, i've also hit the "not this again" wall at arround level 25esh in TOR. much like you i also come from many end game characters in WoW, AoC, Aion, War, and i'm getting tired of it all. sadly there is nothing on the orizon for sandboxers. all you have to choose from is the dying sandboxes aready in existance, and that is little consolation. MO was for me an incredibly fresh and captivating brake wile it was in it's infant state, but unfortunately it never got it's legs and it's now very close to the end. all we can do is wait i guess. wait and hope....
I'm going with everything Jack said. With the exception of EVE, there is nothing worth a sub nor purchase price at the moment. I just came out of a few straight months of Darkfall just to get the taste of themepark out of my mouth. I can by no means recommend this game nor want you to buy it.
If anything just try out the trials and see what one you think might hold your attention.
GL it's rough out there for non themepark mmo's.
If you want to play a sandbox game, then go play a sandbox game. Don't end up as one of the sandbox "fans" who hates all the sandbox games that actually exist.
EVE is probably the best known sandbox game, but I haven't played it. Uncharted Waters Online and Puzzle Pirates are pretty good. A Tale in the Desert isn't very polished, but it is the best crafting game out there.
If I were you, Id take some time to play A Tale in the Desert, Ryzom, and EvE. Quizzical also seems to enjoy Uncharted Waters and he seems to have similar tastes/reasons for playing mmos as myself.
These games will give you a better idea of what can be done within an mmo space. It will also hopefully help you figure out what you are looking for in an mmo.
I sit on a man's back, choking him and making him carry me, and yet assure myself and others that I am very sorry for him and wish to ease his lot by all possible means - except by getting off his back.
There is nonthing Sandbox worth playing atm and that includes Eve. Maybe go try games like Vanguard and Final Fantasy XI. I have faith in ArcheAge, its going to save us all.
On GW 2: so far from what we know it's plenty different though it's still a themepark, but at least its focused on the community GW1 can pretty much be played solo with AI though that wasn't really intended at creation.
On Archeage:I perfectly agree, so far from what i've seen it makes me think of darkfall a whole lot though with a different combat.
Mass majority of gamers are in need to be lead like sheep. The very few that want to be leaders inside the game want the freedom to lead. Instead of siding with or against snadbox or themepark, we should be taking the best and least of both, combining them together, and improving up it.
Glad you got off the themepark ride.
I struggle not with life, money, emotions, and world, but against old mindsets and selves to be proven obsolete in a age and time of rapid changes. Go create fun, so you can have fun.
I feel your pain. While not strictly a sandbox I think ArcheAge will be enough change for me when it releases. It's more of a Themebox or a Sandpark game... A combination of both. It has all of the structure of a Themepark while still giving all of the freedom of a Sandbox. Of course this is all speculation from reading about the game as I've not played it yet but it's about the most promising thing I've seen come around in years. Definitely worth keeping an eye on.
Bren
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I played even less MMOs than you OP and even I got burned out in SWTOR before level cap. That thing was pretty much a copy of older MMOs with no innovation besides cutscenes and isolation from other players in story areas (green/red doors). I only ended up playing that game because of friends, but I couldn't stand it and just left them to do their own thing.
I recommend keeping an eye on Guild Wars 2. That game looks like a fun game. The thing isn't in open beta yet, yet the gameplay still looks good. If you like PvP, there are a few videos of official PvP tournaments (Here is one video of that). There are also a few leaked videos you can find here and there. I don't think there are many detailed in-game footage videos of questing in GW2 at the moment.
I do feel really sorry for gamers who are yet to understand what sandbox is compared to themepark. I cannot wait for a developer to understand what a sandbox should be like, and for them to throw a bunch of money at it to get it polished and out on time.
Take for example the quote "buy a man a fish and he will eat for a day, buy a man a fishing rod and he will eat for a life time".
Now lets change it up for us MMO gamers. "Make a gamer a level and they will run it several times and become bored. Give a gamer the tools to make their own, and they can never be bored".
Unfortunately alot of gamers come from themepark roots. When you say to them FFA pvp they first think "ohh lol level 85 is gona come and gang me over and over and I will have no chance of fighting back."
When you say Full Loot their first thought is "Yea right I aint farming instances for months to lose it all in one fight."
The sandbox that gets it right will first have to destroy this brain washing that new gamers have endured. Horizontal progression is one way to get rid of the ohh noes I'm gona be ganked problem. Darkfall answered the other by having gear falling from trees easily, before I had my first pvp fight my bank was a mess with different sets of armor that I had taken from corpses of mobs.
EDIT: For those who are in firm belief that Guild Wars 2 is the game changer that they all have been looking for? I pity you.
I don't think that GW2 will feel too different from other MMORPGs, because the genre just works that way, but the PvP looks fun and different in enough ways to where it might interest me just enough.
No direct heals. Only AoE support spells and I think self heal spells. This should make PvP fights more interesting and easier for them to balance the length of fights.
Downed state allows you to attempt to kill a target before you actually die. If you kill a target while downed, you can pick yourself off of the ground.
I've heard you can PvP in battlegrounds at any level, because they give low levels high level spells and make gear not matter in structured PvP. (Need fact check on this one. I've heard it from word of mouth.)
World vs. World vs. World PvP sounds like a casual version of World PvP that can be queued up for, instead of us roaming the entire planet in search for fun.
We might be able to "sidekick" a friend up to whatever level a certain character is at. The friend also gets the same skills that character's level normally gets. This allows for a lower level to join in WvWvW PvP from what I've heard.
Well my suggest's are,
When it happens- Darkfall 2.0, i promise you if you like urself a nice old hardcore game with, when you die you drop everything, skill based, and open world. then when it happens Darkfall 2.0 is definitly where its guna be. thats if it does better then it is now. (I was a Launch DF player)
And the other one i can say is The Secret World.
Besides that, i cant think of any other sandbox, or non- wowish,swtorish, or really anything with a lvl and a grind, and gear obtainment, because really theres always guna be some type of "Tier" in a game to cause progression to happen, character development must happen.
But there will always be place for a well done themepark game.
What we've been getting so far is nothing but rehashed, unimaginative, rusty rides.
It doesn't have to be completely innovative.
Something with a twist and not only an overdone/abused gimmick. A little spice. Some oomph. Is it too much to ask?
Ummm...::shakes her head::: wait...what? Is this the same guy that was trumpeting the greatness of SWTOR less than a month ago? Also saying it would retain lots of players and you have all ready given up and teh first month is not even gone by?
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/336175/page/1
Come on Teala, have some sympathy.
They (those jumping out of the TORtanic) now know better and I believe they shouldn't be kicked even further when they're down.
How it all is going down speaks for itself.
Many are having enough humble pie. There's no need to cram some more down their throats
There's nothing fantastic out right now and I'm lumping EVE in there too. Out of the ones I've tried I liked Darkfall and Ryzom the most. Both have their pluses and minuses and approach the sandbox concept differently.
Ryzom's world was fantastic and is still one of the best MMO worlds I've seen. Animal behavior like herding, protecting each other, hunting, migrating, etc. The animals hunt each other and you, so you have to be careful. Crafting is interesting and fairly unique and harvesting can be challenging. The graphics and gameplay are a little dated, but it still has its charms compared to today's offerings.
Darkfall was the last MMO I've played that actually gave me adrenaline rushes. There's a real penalty for dying in the game unlike most MMOs out there. You can lose everything in your bag and almost everything you're wearing when you die, which is why you should bank your stuff often. That can be amazingly frustrating if you're on the losing end, but amazingly exhilirating if you're on the winning end. And you don't have to beat someone in PvP to "win". You can run across someone's gravestone while exploring and find a motherlode of awesomeness. And you can take/wear/use anything you find. No level requirements. There were several times I found very nice armor, weapons and mounts on gravestones I came across while exploring.
Escaping from someone using the landscape around you was also fun. Sound and line of site are more important in DF than other games. I often used trees and boulders to hide from enemies and escape. I could usually hear them before I saw them, so it gave me time to decide to hide or run or fight.
PvP was fun and rewarding. There is a grind though. It bothers some and not others. I didn't mind it so much. PvE was the most challenging I've come across in an MMO. The mobs are almost as dangerous as other players. They can see you from afar and are pretty accurate. There's none of this pick one off and then get the next one crap. They alert each other and will even run back for reinforcements. I lost count of how many times the beginner mobs chased me off when I first started.
If I could combine Ryzom's animal behavior, crafting and PvE with Darkfall's world, mobs, danger and PvP I'd be in hog heaven. I'm hoping ArcheAge will measure up or at least get close.
Current: None
Played: WoW, CoX, SWG, LotRO, EVE, AoC, VG, CO, Ryzom, DF, WAR
Tried: Lineage2, Dofus, EQ2, CoS, FE, UO, Wurm, Wakfu
Future: The Repopulation, ArcheAge, Black Desert, EQN
TORtanic... hahahaha!
Current: None
Played: WoW, CoX, SWG, LotRO, EVE, AoC, VG, CO, Ryzom, DF, WAR
Tried: Lineage2, Dofus, EQ2, CoS, FE, UO, Wurm, Wakfu
Future: The Repopulation, ArcheAge, Black Desert, EQN
Just yesterday, I found this. Fitting.
Maybe you're right, maybe I shouldn't stoop so low. But just once, just once, I would like one of these people that defended this game so adamantly and went so far to call others trolls and haters to step forward and apologize to those of us that had the guts to come forward and tell people the truth about this game before others spent their hard earned money on a game and game company that did not deserve it.
How many gamers were duped into buying this game based on the postings of players that are now coming on these boards to say that, (in less than a month mind you since the games release) they are changing their tunes(or doing a compelete 180!) about the game and are now bored, or now saying the same things many of us were saying before the game released?
Just once...I would like these people to step forward and say, "I am sorry, and the people that were critical of the game and its failings were right."
You know...just once.
If we define Sandbox as a game where players create content, then GW2 is a non-traditional, non-linear Themepark. Zones have level ranges but instead of following a quest chain from A to B to C, you can do Dynamic Events in whatever order you come across them. The game automatically mentors you down when you do lower level content so you can actually go do any event in the world of a lower level any time it's running and get a decent reward for it. I could go into vastly more detail about the game and events and how it all works, but I'm trying to be brief.
The bottom line is that GW2 is a true MMORPG and almost completely unlike GW1 except for the lore. It's almost completely unlike games like WoW as well. As they say in their Manifesto Trailer, "if you love MMOs, you'll want to check out Guild Wars 2, and if you hate MMOs, you'll really want to check out Guild Wars 2."
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." -Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
Let's see. Actions speak louder than words. I have free time to play now. Yeah!
Shall I log in and continue to level my level 23 trooper? Or would I rather come to mmorpg.com and read threads about getting off the theme park ride? Hmmmm. Maybe I will even post a reply or two. Tortanic, indeed! LOL
Actually I found this thread an interesting read. I am really sorry I can't be getting into my SWTOR, right now. I paid over $60, for it after all. I still have till the 20th of my first included 30 days. But I log in and feel bored. There were 8 people on Tatooine when I was on a bit ago. Sure, must be off peak.
One thing that irritates me and makes me feel more on rails is the fact that some quests (not even class quests) cannot be abandoned. I don't want to be forced to do anything in a game. Doing these quest chains actually becomes infuriating to me, so I won't. So when I play, I have been just sticking to my class quests and pvping to level, but then you might miss out on some gear upgrades.
Started thinking about Darkfall again, as I do every 2-3 months. But I'm not happy with Aventurine's management of the game. I want a definitive answer about whether there is going to be a wipe or not prior to 2.0 and they won't cough it up. I have a level 50 in Rift. It's pretty fun for a themepark game. But, I get bored sooner and sooner because I don't know anyone that plays it. I have a friend who went back to WoW, and I'm even thinking (just toying with the idea) of going back...but really it would only be if I couldn't get the guy to play another game. I can't see myself getting him into Darkfall now with the present state of the game and the grind for someone just starting now. I would have to re-roll, too. It could be fun.
I don't know. I have no hopes for any saviors. That is what I have learned since AoC and WAR. That's a good thing, at least. I don't regret having played SWTOR till now. It was $60 and I got that much fun out of it. And I'm not curious because I have experienced it for myself.
I still have Minecraft and Skyrim there, too.
Tell me about it. But watchout you might be called a hater if you mention that you are tired of SWTOR's model of game because there are lurking nerdraging fanbois on these forums. Just a fair warning.
I am in the same boat you are. I got tired of the themepark deal after leaving WoW for about four months then coming back then leaving it again for 7 months. There just doesn't seem to be something better right now to play other then solo games. All the mmo's out there are either really really old sandboxes or recent themeparks. I don't care that you can choose the color of your light saber if it leads you by the nose from one quest to the next then it's immediately boring to me.
The thing i'm excited about is GW2 and the reason? Random Dynamic Events. Let's say you head out of town into an area, some villagers run up to you and ask you for help because they are being invaded by a small army bent on looting and pillaging. If you decide not to help the town is taken over everyone killed and the same army begins to invade other towns nearby until they built up enough to actually take on the major city you just left. I want my next game to be like this, not some timed event with the same exact happenings (ahem Rift) but events that change. The thing about GW2 is in their devs example, if someone goes there and tries to help and they kill say ten men and then leave then the next events the next day will be completely different. That's what i want. Along with the ability to just walk into an area and a series of event specific group objectives appearing on my bar, Screw this talking to npcs even with Voice Overs there shouldn't be a need anymore.
Dont Do It Man! trust me i am in that boat, im on WoW right now, bored as hell. "there's only two things to do eat and poo eat and poop it's like i'm visiting my parents!" is the most accurate way to describe what's happening on WoW right now. Nothing but the same crap that's always been on there. So if you are looking for pve fun i wouldn't suggest it if you REALLY need the social interactions then i'd say go for it. You may just end up being bored out of your mind like I am.
No offense Cali, but I think the last thing a person who had their hopes up high for an MMORPG and had them shattered is one of those videos where the devs take turns using same old 'We will be different!' phrases like "...lost the ability to make the player feel like a hero." Those kinds of videos are just meant to get up hype without actually showing players what they should be hyped about. It is all talk (Isn't that right Bioware?). What people want to see is live gameplay action!
PVE (World boss I think? You don't need to group for a raid to fight them we are told. Anyone can join in.)
Thief gameplay (Also includes town under siege by catapults.)
Right now I'm trying to find good gameplay videos. Some of these peeps don't know how to play! There was this one video where the guy kept hinting with words like "dodge" while he was doing commentary and this one lady kept standing there taking damage.
Nothing from a major developer due out in the next two to three years is really moving far away from the theme park approach.
The one that moves the furthest from it is ArcheAge, with city building, open world, politics and more, but the leveling system is very much the same as any other theme park.
It is currently unavoidable, I suggest you look at the "endgame" features of MMOs, rather than their level progression, because the progression in every single MMO from now until at least 2015 is theme park.