Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
Guild Wars 2: WTF no Raids
Master10K
Member Posts: 3,065
in Guild Wars 2
After his video on Guild Wars 2's lack of a Dedicated Healer and it's lack of a Subscription fee. Youtube user WoodenPotatoes has made yet another enlightening video, on the game's lack of Raids.
Comments
Interesting points even if I think a lot of it is because the game don't have what we usually call "raid gear" as well. It is the raid gear that is what make people bother to gather 25 or 40 players for a dungeon.
I think they made the right call.
A very good video. I've never listened to him before, but he makes for a good narrator. But yeah...I'm ready for raids to wander out onto the tundra, somewhere, and die.
I agree, it's nice to see at least one game coming out won't be all about raiding.
Can someone explain me the difference between dungeon and a raid?
Guild Wars 2 Youtube Croatian Maniacs
My Guild Wars titles
Well, your title is really wrong. There are raids in GW2.
Guild Wars 2's 50 minutes game play video:
http://n4g.com/news/592585/guild-wars-2-50-minutes-of-pure-gameplay
Everything We Know about GW2:
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/287180/page/1
A dungeon usually have 5 or 6 players, a raid is between 10 and 48.
if the only difference is the number of players then it is the same thing to me.
Guild Wars 2 Youtube Croatian Maniacs
My Guild Wars titles
To explain the difference I'll use my experience playing Rift as an example. In Rift once you hit level 50 you can start doing Expert Dungeons for better gear. These are 5-man, fairly difficult, PvE content; that you run over and over again until you have a full set of gear from the Expert dungeons. This is a gating system, because you need the gear, to get the stats, to be able to do Raid content and not be completely useless.
Now Raiding in the game is 20-man, more difficult, PvE content. It tends to introduce much harder mechanics, for each boss and because of that it tends to require more co-odination (usually one dude yelling on vent). Raids come in multiple Tiers (difficulties) and just like dungeons, you run them over and over again until you have a full set of gear for the next Tier of Raids.
This is known as the gear treadmill ^_^
initially in EQ raids were not strictly bound by numbers of players. guild wars and guild wars 2 have dungeon crawls, and if you think of dungeon/raid in WoW terms then they would be raids. they are not quick consumable, low difficulty content that you run in the morning before school. they take an hour or more to do, and they are hard.
people Raid to get good gear for pvp. So say you want to be good at pvp but need the gear, you must raid your ass off to get the gear only to find out that your opponnents have done the same thing and have the same gear maybe better. Since gear in MMOs like WoW is important in PvP, everyone is doing it.
In guild wars pvp is based on player ability and skill , and 25% is gear related (armor value is same but there are different bonuses that you can customize on). In traditional MMOs gear accounts for 75% since the other 25% is based on skill tree and pressing 1, 2 , 3 , 4 ,5 , 6 on your keyboard repeatedly. Raiding ruins the combat because if you dont raid you dont stand a chance in PvP. Guild Wars and Guild Wars 2 has structured PvP which means everyone has access to everything and the limit if only the mind.
-I am here to perform logic
The sooner the better, imo.
Very stupid MMO design created by SOE that should have ended there.
I just got a great idea for a signature, thanks
His big point, role dilution, has always been my main justfiication for my preference for 10 man raids over larger raids. WoW's first 10 man raid, Karazhan, was fantastic. It was well balanced and appropriately difficult. More importantly, everyone's performance mattered so much more. If anyone was slacking off, the rest of the raid knew it. In the former 40 man raids and the new 25 man raids, 3 people could afk half a boss fight and the others might not even notice.
Once Zul'Aman was released, my attitude towards 10 man raids was confirmed. During that expansion, I was part of a guild who had numerous server firsts. Myself and most others in the guild had 5/5 tier 6 for every spec. We were way overgeared. Enter ZA timed runs. You absolutely had to use only 2 healers for the first 4 bosses if you wanted to complete it in time. It was the most intense healing experience in my life, FAR more difficult and engaging than anything I had ever done in 40 or 25 mans. And it felt extremely rewarding as a result. Everyone one of us knew exactly how well we performed, and we each appreciated each other more for it.
Basically, I totally agree with this video's point to that end. I do not like how diluted your role can become in super large raids. I do however enjoy a distinction between smaller normal dungeons and larger raid content. 10 just feels like the magic number based upon my experiences. So I will lament the loss of groups greater than just 5. But who knows? Maybe 5 will feel right for GW2 without the trinity.
Hahaha good one m8. Its a winner
A dungeon is a dungeon, a raid is a raid. The word 'dungeon' has absolutely nothing to do with the amount of people venturing within. Diablo 1 and 2 were essentially dungeon crawlers even though you probably spent the majority of your time playing alone.
When people refer to raiding, they're talking about large-scale raids where groups, or several groups joined in an alliance, 'raid' (the literal definition simply meaning to steal) a 'dungeon.'
So, no, there are no 'raids' by the typical MMO definition in GW2. But yes, there is in fact, 'raiding', where a group of people (albeit a small one) go into a dungeon for the loot at the end. That it's almost entirely aesthetic makes no difference to what it is and the ultimate goal.
So, the people that don't want a game that's all about end-game raiding will be happy, because they don't have to do it. At all. The people that DO want end-game raiding, have nothing to bitch about it. It's there. It's just not technically 'end-game' because the entire game is supposed to be end-game.
The arguments for one side or the other have never and will never make a lick of sense.
"Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."
i'm stoked for GW2 but on the other hand i love large scale raiding. there's just something about killing a boss with crazy mechanics with a large group of people. fights where people get carried is a whole different story all together, but pushing progression content in harder games is what makes me wake up in the morning. you either down a boss with the large group or a couple fails are holding you back and you don't get the win. for me the more players makes for a bigger emotional high when the boss drops. this is just me though.
That's what the events are for. Large groups, larger than most MMOs in fact, getting together to kick a giant boss' ass with crazy mechanics and a giant chest that appears for everyone to loot afterwards.
It's really all there, the only difference is you're not entering an instance to do it, which is precisely what MMOers these days have been complaining about so often. Not saying you have, I'm just saying in general.
"Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."
Awesome! Glad to hear it. I already have a job.
Just another reason to get it at launch.
Bartoni's Law definition: As an Internet discussion grows volatile, the probability of a comparison involving Donald Trump approaches 1.
I usually start to get bored in a MMO where the "Raid or leave" starts....
I´m so glad GW2 won´t be the case
Yes I agree 100%.
I really am getting excited about GW2. By the time it comes out I should be done with Skyrim and bored of TOR.
Bartoni's Law definition: As an Internet discussion grows volatile, the probability of a comparison involving Donald Trump approaches 1.
If you wish to fight a boss with large group of people with crazy mechanics, why would that happen only in a raid. What about this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1JfSbKjHHI
Fight against Tequatl the Sunless. It takes dozens of players to take him down, the boss is huge, there are crazy mechanics: giant asura laser to stun the boss, huge bone walls that he summons to protect himself, global fear, multiple minion spaws to attack players etc, and there's a chest to loot in the end. This is basically a raid! The only difference is that this happens in open world, not in some instanced dungeon.
Guild Wars 2 Youtube Croatian Maniacs
My Guild Wars titles
Except that public dynamic events by their very nature will in no way be up to the difficulty standard of typical MMO raiding. They're designed for uncoordinated large groups of random people coming together to complete. Anet has specifically said the 5 man dungeons are there for players who want a challenge, not the DEs. The person you're trying to refute wants the large scale and the difficulty wrapped in one.
That noise you hear is the measure of my interest in Guild Wars 2 rocketing into space. Raids are an icon of so much of what I hate about MMOs.
I Play MMORPGs since 2004 , one time participated in raid.
I dont see where is the fun of waiting like dumbass for hours for 20+ people to gather. And than repeating set instructions like robot for couple of hours.
Than do it again , same thing. Over and over to nauseum.
I for one applaud the decision of removing raids.
Although, GW2 has thing similar to raid. Its simply open to everyone to participate (and leave) as they see fit.
Yes there will be 5 man dungeons but there will also be insane (Bosses) rampaging the countryside when some moron philfers the wrong grave, or opens the wrong bottle, loots the wrong chest, etc.
The bottom line is there will be plenty of challenges for you to go and face when you reach Cap. such as GVGVG also.