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Originally posted by Struggs Originally posted by dead2soon I would disagree that removing auto attacts is an innovation. To me this is more like lack or polish or attention to detail.
I think they did it bc it fit there combat style and how they wanted it to work. Please please tell us why you think it is lack of polish or attention to detail?
After adjusting to it, I enjoy it. I am more in tune with my energy bar and what moves I am using and when. I would'nt necessarily say its innovative, but it is a change from the norm and it does fit the game.
I guess I feel that they looked at it, saw the technical limitations and difficulties with working it into the gcd and amimations and took the easy way out.
voice acting+storytelling+cutscenes in SWTOR works. i've never bothered reading a single quest from WoW or other similar games because although i like reading books, that's a medium on it's own, and watching a scene acted out even if it's just similar mindless chatter, is still better than a page of useless text. and even if you don't like the cutscenes, you can skip it by pressing spacebar a few times and sometimes a few number keys....
-- Vet of: UO, Pre-AI AO, EQ, DAoC, Shadowbane, Pre-CU SWG, EQ2, RO, Crossgate, Neocron, StoneAge, JY Online, JY Online 2, Seal Online, Asgard Online, Mabinogi, Dragonraja, Lineage, Guild Wars, WoW US, WoW China, WoW Taiwan, EVE Online, LOTRO, Dark and Light, FFXI, FFXIV, Age of Conan, Atlantica Online, STO, and many more...
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So its a list of innovations that arent actually inovations. Now it all makes sense :P
yes lets look at it honestly for a change:
Combat: removing the autoattack isn't innovative it's fixing a problem. Innovation is where something completely new is done. Not only are most of the abilities of these so called scifi classes almost identical to those found in their WoW counterparts but they are still using the tired old Global Cool down for their abilities. definitely not innovative.
Companions: Sure they did do a good job with companions but seriously just because you have points that affect only the companion and not the whole world doesn't mean this is an innovative feature for an mmo it's an innovative feature they used from previous solo games and reinforces what many players have called a solo-only game with tiny bits of mmo backdroppings.
Crafting: Definitely not innovative, they do have the singular ability to reverse engineer items which in itself is innovative however there is no discovery system and everything you do or try to make is a money sink, you can't just gather some stuff put it together and see what you can make from it. Seriously poor design and it will make your toon poor for below standard items in the process.
Really? Only three items. Out of everything players were promised years ago when the game was just starting to be developed there's only three areas? Well at least you guys didn't include the overtouted Voice Over thing like that's the only thing the game has to offer....oh wait it is!
Originally posted by Anev Perhaps this is one of those articles "looking at the glass half full" thing. SWTOR has been an utter dissappointment to the MMORPG world.
No it has not. It has been a dissapointment for a small very vocal minority. You see them posting often because the rest of the MMORPG world is busy playing the game.
I guess the thing that depresses me most about mmorpg game design in this far down its timeline is that "innovation" and "evolution" are couched in such terms that you'd only think there was one actual game that was being passed from one studio to the next, with each having its assets replaced and a couple of extra features tacked on.
There is absolutely no surprise about what this game is about. If you're familiar with Bioware's works, then its a simple matter of extrapolating the elements they've long focused upon and applying it to this genre. The innovations discussed in this article are less about creative decisions and more the net result of a massive production budget. Please do not confuse the two.
Innovation lol, Can I have whatever they are drinking over there? Too funny what a comedy show. Innovation is over at the Guild Wars 2 area of the site sorry but that game is innovative nothing innovative about TOR, hows about they are missing key features such as high textures that they showed at trade shows for yrs, no AA, umm no tutorials for crafting and the crafting sucks if you ask me. Umm lets see a world that is bland with no life about it, some mobs stand against a wall duh hooray excitement. Bland worlds sorry it's a bust have fun lol.
Its not innovation if its already been done - even pointed out by the author.
Companions have already been done, and the game has been balanced with the thought that we'd be using companions - meaning they don't increase our power relative to mobs. Pretty much negating any help the companion brings. Unlike other games were the companion actually boost your power relative to the mobs one fights. It was a good thought, but poorly implemented when they made mobs stronger to balance the use of a companion.
Crafting. OK, I'll give you that, but I think its a huge stretch.
Combat. Nothing new about it, and I find it is buggy or laggy at best.
Story. I agree. Its nice. Still too much running back and forth for my taste, though.
Replacing Auto-attack, a system where you wait for your engery to build up, with a basic attack you have spam while you wait for your engery to build up, isn't all that innovated IMO.
Crafting is pretty unique... too bad it's ruined by the fact any combo but bios and slicing is basicly a pointless waste of money.
Companions is an innovation, though they anrt nearly as good as they are in bioware's other games. In thier solo games they talk all the time, in SWTOR while they talk in their storyline and the mainstory line but during sidequests they just slightly judge you... Also friendship is apparently all about how many presents you have.
I will not play a game with a cash shop ever again. A dev job should be to make the game better not make me pay so it sucks less.
this article is very bad. Tor is not inovative at all. And I mean AT ALL hehe.
Sry but Tor is wowclone like , the true example of it.
everything in the game is dumbed down, crafting is useless, items are indestructible so economy is screwed, there are no social tools, guild tools (guild are like chat only litteraly), housing. Horrible instancing. Corridors everywhere. Almost no character customization skill wise. Banned UI elements moving is joke. If you will go watch a movie now, you will get similiar linear experience.
where all the creativity did go?
here is the small pic
and the discusion
Originally posted by TimacekHAHAHA sry this article is very bad. Tor is not inovative at all. And I mean AT ALL hehe. Sry but Tor is wowclone like , the true example of it.everything in the game is dumbed down, crafting is useless, items are indestructible so economy is screwed, there are no social tools, guild tools (guild are like chat only litteraly), housing. Horrible instancing. Corridors everywhere. Almost no character customization skill wise. Banned UI elements moving is joke. If you will go watch a movie now, you will get similiar linear experience.where all the creativity did go?here is the small picand the discusion http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/367/view/forums/thread/337906/Note-sure-if-this-pic-has-been-posted-yet.html
Prime example of CLONED wow build
MB:Asus V De Luxe z77CPU:Intell Icore7 3770kGPU:MSI 2x AMD 290X(waiting for BIG VEGA 11 HBM2)MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GBPSU:Corsair AX1200iOS:Windows 10 64bit
I like the way WoW does it better, where everytime I push a button something spectacular has a chance to happen as opposed to SWTOR's attrition based gameplay where I have to push a button just to convince myself something is happening. If I had to hit more buttons in SWTOR than WoW, I might think it was a good thing, but I don't, so it just feels like I'm being conned.
Is this an example of the lack of one's education in mmo history, or what, what I am supposed to be looking at here? I'm lost when trying to discern the purpose of this thread, other than to incite rage, because we've all seen these topics touched upon countless times.
Frankly I'm tired of hearing, "It's just too hard to innovate these days".
One of the worst statements created from the design of this game is, "If it's too hard just give up." Which seems to be the answer as to why no one actually tried to create something new and interesting, what if because of whatever success this game may garner, other mmo developers decide to follow suit. Sounds horrible doesn't it, too bad that's the future you're creating for yourself.
Furthermore, why did they focus more on the development of the player's interaction with NPCs over actual players? Remember when you had to actually cultivate relationships with actual people?
It's kind of perversely humorous when you think about it, that this is it, the pinnacle of mmo progression in current history. What makes it worse, is that people accept it, that there's nothing that could have been done, and that this game is near perfect.
Blizzard has (and is) crafted WoW to be such a generic all-encompassing experience that one can claim that every other game out there that uses TAB to switch targets and the number keys to initiates attacks, is like WoW.
If BioWare would've fashioned an entirely original experience, it'd take so long for most people to learn and get good with it that most people would quit because they would be too attached to the experiences they've had in WoW or any of the other MMO's that utilize the same gameplay concepts WoW does.
Is SWTOR innovative? The answer is entirely subjective and for me, it's a resounding YES because SWTOR is the first game I'm willing to pay a subscription fee for based on its' Roleplay, stories and not just gameplay.
Originally posted by Timacek
Amazing how they didn't even try to mix it up, or disguise the similarities. It gives WoW-clone a whole new meaning, the way they made it nearly identical. People say Rift was a WoW clone, but the way the skill trees worked was a lot more different, and many of the abilities you could use weren't like anything in WoW. TOR on the other hand? That's not even just some superficial UI similarity. They just shamelessly plaguerized WoW, on every level.. except quality of execution.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
What the heck are people expecting? Being able to control the tip of the Lightsaber with your mouse cursor?
WoW was a better EQ and it's no surprise that SWTOR now borrows mechanics that look and behave like WoWs'.
However, the true innovation in SWTOR is that despite it borrowing concepts from WoW, KoTOR, and Mass Effect, it truly feels like a unique experience in its own right to those who want to play it for what it is: KoTOR III with multiplayer capabilities.
To those who'd rather see it as a WoW-clone with Star Wars paint... go right ahead, have fun bitching about BioWare being un-original.
I for one appreciate BioWare for keeping their focus on story and characters while being smart and humble enough by learning and utilizing a successful formula in their gameplay.
Originally posted by LordOfPit Blizzard has (and is) crafted WoW to be such a generic all-encompassing experience that one can claim that every other game out there that uses TAB to switch targets and the number keys to initiates attacks, is like WoW.
To be fair to the people complaing about the similarities, there's far more than just Tab targetting and hotkeys to draw comparisons to. I think those people need to try and relax, it's just a game, BUT.. I do think they have a right to be irritated how big games are copies of each other because they're afraid of failure.
The one feature in SWTOR that's really innovative in terms of MMORPG mechanics is multiplayer dialogue.
Think about it. How you interact with quests and NPCs is a big part of an MMO, and Bioware totally changed how that works. It's a whole system with things like social points and light/dark points. And it's also not just a straight lift-off from some single player mechanics: Bringing it into multiplayer makes the dialogue wheel a wholly different experience. Though it's feels very CORPG-ish in its roots, it's still solid innovation.
I dont think its because they are afraid to fail. I think the reasons so many companies dont innovate on a massive scale is games need to be polished when released.
to all those that whine about wanting innovation they are also the first to leave a game that has alot of bugs and call them uplayable.
The fact is innovation takes money , Players want games that play on multiple machines, they want games that arent a buggy mess and then they want tons of innovation and u cant have all of it.
That is why companins innovate on a smaller scale. I for one like what tor does diffrent its enough of a diffrence to make it feel fresh and its a really fun game. I love there story and choices and companions are amazing
The tthing is most companies that take big risks have to rush to market and in the end there games fail and so investors dont end up investing in hugely innovative games.
Once a company proves u can do a certain thing well in mmos though they will be copied and there is how u end up with more innovation.
Mmos take time to change because of this factor , keep in mind single player games take what 6 months to a yr to hit market whereas an mmo takes 3-5 yrs. so what may seem innovative when a company starts developement may not be as innovative when they finish either.
This hole lack of auto attack is a lack of polish is pissing me off:
If this was a lack of polish design area no one who played Allods for ANY amount of time said so, in fact most people playing MMO's without an auto attack preffer it without one. Auto attack also makes melee and weapon based (ranger, hunter, and in swtor would of been snipers) boring to play.
You know how many times during WoW I used to hear rogues over talk how good they were and how much mages and locks were just pathetic for not get X dmg on a boss fight? Yea thats because 40% of their dmg was auto attack, while casters were 100% all action that they had to priorties in a fight.
What is fun about auto attacks? so if I just sit their after I start attacking my character will probably do most of the work for me... sure sounds fun.
"There’s nothing terribly innovative about SWTOR’s combat, but the removal of an auto-attack ability for all classes (and companions) is innovative in its own way because it’s been so long since an MMO actually did that"
I expect more from an MMORPG staff member. This is such an egregious statement I am actually dumbfounded, for once I am at a complete loss at how to attack this.
Do I go about pointing out that that your list is suposed to be innovations, and that you yourself admit its not innovative?
Do I point out that you completlty have lost the definition on innovative? Please get a dictonary and look it up, or google it.
Do I point out that FFXIV at launch didnt have an auto attack? Oh jeez thats been so long. Id be willing to bet that there was an MMO that released in 2011 that didnt have an auto-atack (besides tor of course)
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore) Now Playing: N/A Worst MMO: FFXIVFavorite MMO: FFXI
This article is grasping at straws. Seeing the removal of autoattack as innovation is laughable. There are a lot more MMO's that dont have an auto attack. Please look beyond LOTRO, WOW and SWTOR.
I agree that how crafting is implemented in SWTOR, is innovative. I also think how they brought their storytelling with voiceovers to a MMO, is innovative.
But the companions, meh. Guild Wars already did this. In Nightfall the way you had to chose which hero you wanted and the way that influenced the stories and cutscenes. Then the customisation of those heroes (which goes further then SWTOR companions). They might not talk to you all the time, but if you take them with you, they make random comments based on their personality. Which is of course not on the same level as with SWTOR and its voice overs, but its the same principle and shows it has been done already.
I know MMORPG staff loves SWTOR and loves to write about it. But at least do your homework before saying that something is innovative. The most annoying part for me is that you mention things that are simply looked over when reviewing other games. But with SWTOR those mechanics are suddenly all great and awesome. While at the same time SWTOR misses the most basic features.
Guild Wars Heroes, introduced in Nightfall, were the first Companions in a major MMO. TOR added some VO, which makes sense with almost the entire game having VO, but that's more an offshot of the story/VO innovation. Having companions that do your crafting and can go on gathering missions is an innovation, so credit there.
LotRO is a AAA MMORPG with out Auto Attack and there are some smaller MMOs that have been there as well, not innovation if it's been done before. As the article says, not much about TOR combat is innovation. Remove the one exception given and you get the truth, nothing about TOR combat is innovative.
Innovation in crafting? Other than companions crafting for you, I'm not sure there are any. Reverse Engineering for some resource return is in Rift, but I don't think you can discover an improved recipe/schematic from doing so. So, there are possibly a couple very minor innovations related to crafting.
Arenanet has been talking about universal rez almost since the game was first announced. TOR got to market first, (while obviously needing months more development time before it should have launched), but copying an announced innovation from another title in development is not innovation.
So, across the vastness that is TOR, the only actual innovations are:
The fully voiced quests and class storylines, (major, as a matter of degree).
Companions that can craft for you and go on gathering missions. Companions have been done before, but there is some minor innovation in what they can do for you.
All classes can Rez? Probably lifted from long announced GW2 design. Minor credit if you give them the benefit of the doubt on it being simultaneous innovation.
When combined with the perception that the rest of the game is just a mediocre replay of old, stale MMORPG design elements from various titles and you can not call this an innovative title.
In fact, the TOR status quo seems to have been sourced from the state of MMORPGs from six years ago, for the most part failing to adopt the minor improvements and innovations to that status quo that have occured over the last half decade.
Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated
I like companions
I like that there's no auto attack forever option with combat.
There, summarized the ENTIRE story...
How the F is removal of auto-attack innovative when already A LOT OF MMORPGs DO not have auto attack. For all I just mention - Age of Conan and Fallen Earth.