Edit & foreword: Wanted to say I enjoy playing the game still, we ain't sheep!
Nearly fell down from my chair reading the below quote
Originally Posted by James Ohlen
For the most part, players and critics have praised the game, Ohlen shares, and BioWare is seeing an "exceptionally high" desire among its playerbase for continued subscriptions. But was BioWare prepared for the backlash as well? Ohlen says it was: "We knew that there was going to be people who wanted us to fail. But that's just the nature of the game. If you're going to build a huge game and try to go out to a lot of people, you're going to have people who just react poorly."
He does push back hard against claims that SWTOR failed on the innovation front, stating, "We wanted to take the lessons that have been developed in that genre over years and years and years and basically refine them, much like other companies do with other genres. So, I don't know, it's just the way it is, but I don't see us as not being innovative. We're actually a lot more innovative within the MMO space than comparable games in other spaces like the first-person genre, the action genre -- games like that."
no pun intended, still even if I can understand defending your (Everyone @BioWare/EA/LA) work you have either to be in denial, delusional or... I don't know.
First most players did not want you/TOR to fail but to succeed because, let's be honest we all want a FUN MMO. Then you should not even mention some wants you to fail, not only nobody cares about them but it makes you like the fool here. You reacted poorly.
Now about innovation may I lecture you about some of the things that are missing in TOR:
Swimming
Third party addons
Minigames like card games or slot gamers
Dual spec
Day/night cycles
Non humanoid based playable races
Planetary housing
Housing furnishing
Animal based pet classes
Resources for crafting that do have quality
Complex crafting system
Guild leveling system
Animal mounts
Flying mounts
PvP Arenas
Collision detection between characters
Macros
Barber / Image Designer
Appearance tabs
Fishing
Guild "Tabard"
Multiplayer mounts
Gear Dyes
Shared storage bank slots
In game voice chat
LFG tool
Guild bank
Incentives for socialization
Character extended body customization
3 Factions RvR
Wolrd PvP
RPG tools
Underwater content
3d exploration
The only things to notice, and I'm not saying these features are bad, are: speaking pets and totally V.O. story.
About "pet" classes, the not so good thing is in TOR you can't really choose how to play.
In single player you are mostly required to play with a companion (pet classe are somehow mandatory unless you want to play in hard difficulty mode)
In multiplayer you can't play a pet class in a full group or you have to replace a player with a companion.
On character customization, we can't really call innovation the following: a choice of combinations of 4 eyebrows, 4 jewelry, 4 cybernetic attachements and 4 body choices. SWG, AOC, AION, RIFT have more and better choices than TOR. And in SWG, LotRo I can change my character aspect in game after character creation.
About gear itemization, it has been proved the mod system does not do the trick and even a simpler appearance tab offers more customization, promotes more trading and prevents more players either from looking alike or being dressed as clowns. BTW other MMO do have gear dyes and the to come GW2 will have a choice of 3 dyeable zones on each equipment with a choice among palette color of 400 nuances. Also in games like, LotRo I can hide my character's shoulder pads, boots, gloves, cloak.
Apart glowing sticks and nice sounds I fail to see how TOR is innovative on combat. It's more or less the same stuff that has been done for eons. Also it's the exact same trinity system with boss kiting, playerS against a boss.
Let's speak about PvP: where are the massive battles? Where is the open PvP? The game was designed in a such way that it prevents PvP on too many planets and too often, apart in battlegrounds one has to be lucky to find an opponent player. Seems to me the innovation here was to remove PvP from the world and shrink it to the instances.
TOR crafting system, isn't bad but at this point it's more a money sink than else and just slightly better than Rift, not even as good as LoRo, EQII, Vanguard and light years behind from Pre-CU SWG.
How about TOR world? It feels dead. NPC and many mobs are just standing still. We can't interact with them. There's no critters. No day/night cycles with scripted NPC and mobs acting depending on the time of the day.
About the UI, the innovation here was to deliver the least convenient UI, AAA MMO wide. Even AoC had a more customizable UI at lauch and that's saying something. We can't even move my frames around nor scale my UI! This is a PC game not a freaking console game.
About story, ok the story ain't that bad in general but but too often the dialogs are pretty generic and well the choices don't have any impact at all on the game.
Loading screens... of death. AoC was flamed to death for having them and we have at least twice more in TOR. Do you call that innovation?
Please don't mention the space shooter because not only it's more on rails than all others around but even your scripted music isn't as good as what was achieved with the dynamic iMuse system in X-Wing in... 1993!
Finally let's talk polishing. At best TOR is uneven in terms of polishing:
"Let's see: lacklustre UI, AA not working, High textures not available in world, many players with regular disconnection errors 9000, Black screen crashing, horrid FPS issues, Taris memory leak @launch, players that can't complete patching the game, many V.O. camera angles off, some quests story lines broken, group and guild chat that was broken, totally flawed PvP design on Illum, poor LFG system, not even dual specs"
A polished MMO? Bend towards Turbine/LotRO and more lately Trion Worlds/Rift. These are polished MMO with a budget at best half TOR (supposedly I agree) $100-120ish millions bill.
/rant off
P.S.: let's just hope it was only a miss step soon to be forgotten. Long live to a FUN TOR!
Totally agree with this post.
Thanks for writing all these.Some people has to open their eyes and stop eating crap in the face.
Swimming-Why? That hard up to visit Dac (aka Mon Calamari)?
Third party addons-Not for me, but I get it.
Minigames like card games or slot gamers-You'd only get Sabacc. To what end though? Bioware would just cheat and take all my money (wait, they already do that)
Dual spec-Again, why? How many template characters were dual specced that didn't involve piloting?
Day/night cycles-You forgot the add they don't have flashlights either. Who cares?
Non humanoid based playable races-Thats coming. I'd rather they get stuff right then worry about non humanoids. But I am looking forward to those strong force users, the Gamorreans.
Planetary housing-A house is a house. The current one follows you.
Housing furnishing-Gold sink.
Animal based pet classes-Yes, I want Leia's cat to aid in my adventures. Outside of Jabba's beastmaster, who would this fit in the normal universe? I don't want to be a half naked fat bastard.
Resources for crafting that do have quality-Dont care about crafting so this may be a logical points
Complex crafting system-#7
Guild leveling system-Might be interesting. Though with Capital ships coming we'll see.
Animal mounts-notice how in any of the movies anyone using an animal mount not only didn't go far, something bad happened to them?
Flying mounts-They have speeders and this isn't WoW.
PvP Arenas-With of course the PvP arena loot as well for the people who have that much time to invest I bet? Yeah, dont care.
Collision detection between characters-Hell no. Well unless they expand the openings of places by a factor of 10. Otherwise I'm fine not waiting for the overweight trooper to stop blocking the cantina entrance.
Macros-If you dont have 2 hands, my apologies.
Barber / Image Designer-Seriously? Try being sober when creating your character.
Appearance tabs- How about they just take away 8 inventory slots instead? Same effect.
Fishing-WTF? Hunting I might get. But Fishing? Better yet how about a fishing instance that plays "dock of the bay" by ottis redding! What do you fish with? A thermal detenator?
Guild "Tabard"-Awesome. So my guild "Perpetual Motion Squad" can have PMS on their chests. Brilliant! (h/t BBT)
Multiplayer mounts-Only if they introduce large PvP battlefields. Otherwise have gay sex the normal way. Because you probably don't need to be online to have hetero sex.
Gear Dyes-Because when playing in SWTOR I constantly thing, "what would make this game perfect?" The answer that always comes up? Flaming pink head gear.
Shared storage bank slots-Shred with who? The people who steal your stuff?
In game voice chat-Maybe. But really they know they're not going to do better than other software.
LFG tool- Its called "chat"
Guild bank-"Occupy Coruscant!"
Incentives for socialization-Yes, because being online chatting with a 12 year old of the opposite sex has never, ever gotten anyone into trouble.
Character extended body customization-What part of the character are you trying to extend exactly? Over compensating much?
3 Factions RvR-What the....? What would be the third faction? Yoda? Wookies? Tauntauns? Peope disenchanted with the Republic but with a life time supply of skin cream?
Wolrd PvP-This makes sense, if only on PvP servers.
RPG tools-Isn't that anyone who plays an MMORPG for more than 14 hours a week?
Underwater content-You should seek help inregards to your fixation on squid people. Its a little scary.
3d exploration-So they can charge $100 for the glasses?
I like to use the cell phone analogy in 2000 a company releases a cell phone with a whole slew of new features such as wifi, gps, 3g, voice dialing, web browser, camera, speakerphone, media player, movable icons, and some others
now come 2012 a huge company releases there first new cell phone to the market it includes the worlds first 3d projector on a cell phone and also includes your basic features such as wifi, 3g, gps, speakerphone. But the phone does not include a camera, web browser, movable icons, you can't change the wallpaper now are those last features necessary for the function of the phone? no but are people going to be pissed they are not included? yes they are you expect companies to learn and use the best of the best from the past why should we not expect any differen't here?
Wonderful. So I assume you've got a detailed project plan that Bioware should have followed to get all of those things on the list in the game at launch, along with the time and costs for each thing factored in?
It's real easy to say what a game "should" have at launch. It's another thing entirely to actually develop a game. And a lot of those things are either fluff or convenience items that can easily be pushed to expansions or free content updates, which is why many of them didn't end up in previous games right at launch.
my comparison was just to show the people that can't seem to comprehend why people are upset about some of this or all of this is missing from a 2012 MMO.. doesn't matter what product or media type you apply it to... if a director went and made a new super high budget SCI-FI movie it had the best acting and story of any movie before it yet looked like it was made with the same technology as the original star wars you think people wouldn't be pissed? or if the next modern warfare game came out in 5 years and went back to similar game mechanics as as modern warfare 1 getting rid of all the level ups and everything they added throughout the series you wouldn't expect people to tear the game apart?
Just out of curiosity. How upset are you? and do you believe that being upset about a game is normal behavior?
my comparison was just to show the people that can't seem to comprehend why people are upset about some of this or all of this is missing from a 2012 MMO.. doesn't matter what product or media type you apply it to... if a director went and made a new super high budget SCI-FI movie it had the best acting and story of any movie before it yet looked like it was made with the same technology as the original star wars you think people wouldn't be pissed? or if the next modern warfare game came out in 5 years and went back to similar game mechanics as as modern warfare 1 getting rid of all the level ups and everything they added throughout the series you wouldn't expect people to tear the game apart?
That's fine, but irrelevant to my point.
It's easy for people on message boards to be armchair developers, saying what should and should not go into a game. It's another thing entirely to work at a game studio and actually develop a game. It's a whole different game when you actually have to plan and budget for things, and have definte milestones and goals that need to be reached. You simply can't be everything to everyone right from the start. Some things take longer than others, if they even fit your game in the first place. That's the point.
I like to use the cell phone analogy in 2000 a company releases a cell phone with a whole slew of new features such as wifi, gps, 3g, voice dialing, web browser, camera, speakerphone, media player, movable icons, and some others
now come 2012 a huge company releases there first new cell phone to the market it includes the worlds first 3d projector on a cell phone and also includes your basic features such as wifi, 3g, gps, speakerphone. But the phone does not include a camera, web browser, movable icons, you can't change the wallpaper now are those last features necessary for the function of the phone? no but are people going to be pissed they are not included? yes they are you expect companies to learn and use the best of the best from the past why should we not expect any differen't here?
Wonderful. So I assume you've got a detailed project plan that Bioware should have followed to get all of those things on the list in the game at launch, along with the time and costs for each thing factored in?
It's real easy to say what a game "should" have at launch. It's another thing entirely to actually develop a game. And a lot of those things are either fluff or convenience items that can easily be pushed to expansions or free content updates, which is why many of them didn't end up in previous games right at launch.
my comparison was just to show the people that can't seem to comprehend why people are upset about some of this or all of this is missing from a 2012 MMO.. doesn't matter what product or media type you apply it to... if a director went and made a new super high budget SCI-FI movie it had the best acting and story of any movie before it yet looked like it was made with the same technology as the original star wars you think people wouldn't be pissed? or if the next modern warfare game came out in 5 years and went back to similar game mechanics as as modern warfare 1 getting rid of all the level ups and everything they added throughout the series you wouldn't expect people to tear the game apart?
Just out of curiosity. How upset are you? and do you believe that being upset about a game is normal behavior?
upset, dissapointed, doesn't matter what you want to call it.. how much time do people put into an average single player game? maybe 10-100 hours depending on the game. How many hours go into MMO's for some its weeks upon weeks of actual playtime is all that playtime not considered a huge investment into your life? so you are saying you can't see how people can get somewhat emotional over something they invest many many hours of there lives into?
In case you didn't know MMOs for many people can be considering an addiction and this case yes it would seem like very normal behavior to get a little upset over an addiction no matter what that addiction might be.
People misjudge me a lot here though and I know it's hard ot believe but you can be dissapointed and still enjoy a game.. shocking I know
It's easy for people on message boards to be armchair developers, saying what should and should not go into a game. It's another thing entirely to work at a game studio and actually develop a game. It's a whole different game when you actually have to plan and budget for things, and have definte milestones and goals that need to be reached. You simply can't be everything to everyone right from the start. Some things take longer than others, if they even fit your game in the first place. That's the point.
the point a lot of people are trying to make is most of this stuff is little stuff that's been in games for over a decade now.. it's not like you are asking the developers to create anything new. They copied the story system from there other games they copied the MMO elements from other games not a whole lot of new ideas here and with the time and budget I just feel its perfectly acceptable to see why many people seem upset or dissapointed with the final product.
Incentives for socialization-Yes, because being online chatting with a 12 year old of the opposite sex has never, ever gotten anyone into trouble.
Ah, the internet... where men are men, women are men, and children are the FBI...
You know, I'm not sure how much more incentive a player needs in an MMO other than, all the best gear being in group dungeons, social points, XP bonuses, loot bonuses, and a flat out far better chance for survival in every area of the game.
I have to wonder if it's really about Incentives for socialization, or if it's just that they want it mandated that someone MUST group and play with them whenever they log in, because otherwise, no one wants to.
It's easy for people on message boards to be armchair developers, saying what should and should not go into a game. It's another thing entirely to work at a game studio and actually develop a game. It's a whole different game when you actually have to plan and budget for things, and have definte milestones and goals that need to be reached. You simply can't be everything to everyone right from the start. Some things take longer than others, if they even fit your game in the first place. That's the point.
the point a lot of people are trying to make is most of this stuff is little stuff that's been in games for over a decade now.. it's not like you are asking the developers to create anything new. They copied the story system from there other games they copied the MMO elements from other games not a whole lot of new ideas here and with the time and budget I just feel its perfectly acceptable to see why many people seem upset or dissapointed with the final product.
A large part of the lists people make is stuff that isnt exactly MMO staples. Over 2/3 of the list OP posted wasnt in Rift (just using it as the only other MMO released in 2011), and half of whats left doesnt make sense in a Star Wars setting or is stuff that not everyone wants.
Show me a game thats been highly innovative thats released lately? There are some on the horizon, but Rift was not innovative either but its ok? They had better MMORPG minds behind that game then SWTOR has and they played it safe despite their experience.
It's easy for people on message boards to be armchair developers, saying what should and should not go into a game. It's another thing entirely to work at a game studio and actually develop a game. It's a whole different game when you actually have to plan and budget for things, and have definte milestones and goals that need to be reached. You simply can't be everything to everyone right from the start. Some things take longer than others, if they even fit your game in the first place. That's the point.
the point a lot of people are trying to make is most of this stuff is little stuff that's been in games for over a decade now.. it's not like you are asking the developers to create anything new. They copied the story system from there other games they copied the MMO elements from other games not a whole lot of new ideas here and with the time and budget I just feel its perfectly acceptable to see why many people seem upset or dissapointed with the final product.
And how many of the things on that list were in games AT LAUNCH? Some of those features took years to show up. Others are just cosmetic fluff that can wait for an expansion or free content upgrade and aren't mandatory to play the damned game.
It's ridiculous to demand that a game launch with everything including the kitchen sink just because other games took years to put some features in. If people want all that, then show how it would have been done, in detail. Otherwise, it's just another bunch of armchair development on a message board without any basis in reality.
It's easy for people on message boards to be armchair developers, saying what should and should not go into a game. It's another thing entirely to work at a game studio and actually develop a game. It's a whole different game when you actually have to plan and budget for things, and have definte milestones and goals that need to be reached. You simply can't be everything to everyone right from the start. Some things take longer than others, if they even fit your game in the first place. That's the point.
the point a lot of people are trying to make is most of this stuff is little stuff that's been in games for over a decade now.. it's not like you are asking the developers to create anything new. They copied the story system from there other games they copied the MMO elements from other games not a whole lot of new ideas here and with the time and budget I just feel its perfectly acceptable to see why many people seem upset or dissapointed with the final product.
A large part of the lists people make is stuff that isnt exactly MMO staples. Over 2/3 of the list OP posted wasnt in Rift (just using it as the only other MMO released in 2011), and half of whats left doesnt make sense in a Star Wars setting or is stuff that not everyone wants.
Show me a game thats been highly innovative thats released lately? There are some on the horizon, but Rift was not innovative either but its ok? They had better MMORPG minds behind that game then SWTOR has and they played it safe despite their experience.
exactly rift was not innovative aside from the zone invasion stuff and the soul system but in the end it was more of the same and how well is that working out for them? game is doing ok but nothing spectacular. Also pretty much all those features in some way or another have been in MMOs since SWTOR first started development. What can you really consider a staple anyway.. I feel games need to learn from past games see what worked the best for them and expand on this if there goal is to not break the mold they should at least do the best they can with that mold.
Originally posted by Lidane Originally posted by sanosukex my comparison was just to show the people that can't seem to comprehend why people are upset about some of this or all of this is missing from a 2012 MMO.. doesn't matter what product or media type you apply it to... if a director went and made a new super high budget SCI-FI movie it had the best acting and story of any movie before it yet looked like it was made with the same technology as the original star wars you think people wouldn't be pissed? or if the next modern warfare game came out in 5 years and went back to similar game mechanics as as modern warfare 1 getting rid of all the level ups and everything they added throughout the series you wouldn't expect people to tear the game apart?
That's fine, but irrelevant to my point. It's easy for people on message boards to be armchair developers, saying what should and should not go into a game. It's another thing entirely to work at a game studio and actually develop a game. It's a whole different game when you actually have to plan and budget for things, and have definte milestones and goals that need to be reached. You simply can't be everything to everyone right from the start. Some things take longer than others, if they even fit your game in the first place. That's the point.
Don't say that bc now people are going to claim they work, have worked or in school for such a thing
And how many of the things on that list were in games AT LAUNCH? Some of those features took years to show up. Others are just cosmetic fluff that can wait for an expansion or free content upgrade and aren't mandatory to play the damned game.
It's ridiculous to demand that a game launch with everything including the kitchen sink just because other games took years to put some features in. If people want all that, then show how it would have been done, in detail. Otherwise, it's just another bunch of armchair development on a message board without any basis in reality.
if SWTOR at least had an original combat system, original way to learn skills and learn talents i'd probably agree. Everything here is borrowed ideas, borrowed ideas are going to take much less time to put together than new ideas. There goal was to make a themepark MMO like wow with there single player story added on top and yes they achieved this. If you are fine with the finished product than that's fine many are not yet many are. Most of that stuff that was added over the years to games was new for MMOs at the time or it was a release feature in a new MMO that came out and the other MMO saw it and felt it would work well in there MMO so it was added.
my comparison was just to show the people that can't seem to comprehend why people are upset about some of this or all of this is missing from a 2012 MMO.. doesn't matter what product or media type you apply it to... if a director went and made a new super high budget SCI-FI movie it had the best acting and story of any movie before it yet looked like it was made with the same technology as the original star wars you think people wouldn't be pissed? or if the next modern warfare game came out in 5 years and went back to similar game mechanics as as modern warfare 1 getting rid of all the level ups and everything they added throughout the series you wouldn't expect people to tear the game apart?
That's fine, but irrelevant to my point.
It's easy for people on message boards to be armchair developers, saying what should and should not go into a game. It's another thing entirely to work at a game studio and actually develop a game. It's a whole different game when you actually have to plan and budget for things, and have definte milestones and goals that need to be reached. You simply can't be everything to everyone right from the start. Some things take longer than others, if they even fit your game in the first place. That's the point.
Don't say that bc now people are going to claim they work, have worked or in school for such a thing
I can claim no such thing.. all I can claim is I have been playing graphical MMOs since there first creation on the internet and used to play MUDs on BBS well before any graphical type MMO or even a web browser was ever released.. also played Gemstone III and IV for years...
my comparison was just to show the people that can't seem to comprehend why people are upset about some of this or all of this is missing from a 2012 MMO.. doesn't matter what product or media type you apply it to... if a director went and made a new super high budget SCI-FI movie it had the best acting and story of any movie before it yet looked like it was made with the same technology as the original star wars you think people wouldn't be pissed? or if the next modern warfare game came out in 5 years and went back to similar game mechanics as as modern warfare 1 getting rid of all the level ups and everything they added throughout the series you wouldn't expect people to tear the game apart?
That's fine, but irrelevant to my point.
It's easy for people on message boards to be armchair developers, saying what should and should not go into a game. It's another thing entirely to work at a game studio and actually develop a game. It's a whole different game when you actually have to plan and budget for things, and have definte milestones and goals that need to be reached. You simply can't be everything to everyone right from the start. Some things take longer than others, if they even fit your game in the first place. That's the point.
Don't say that bc now people are going to claim they work, have worked or in school for such a thing
The funny thing is, I have actually worked at a game studio. I also have colleagues in the game industry. I've seen first-hand what they go through when they develop games. It's not as easy as people think, and it sure as hell isn't glamorous. Those millions of dollars in budgets go for things as mundane as paying the water and electric bills, buying office supplies, and making sure that everyone in the office gets paid. It doesn't all go into the game itself. And if a studio has multiple projects? That money gets divided up between them all.
Decisions have to be made, and sometimes things you might want just can't happen. Or they can happen, but they're going to take longer than you'd like, or than the message boards would want. That's just the way things work. It's business, and eventually, the reality of business collides with the fanboy wishes and you can't do it all at launch.
Incentives for socialization-Yes, because being online chatting with a 12 year old of the opposite sex has never, ever gotten anyone into trouble.
Ah, the internet... where men are men, women are men, and children are the FBI...********
You know, I'm not sure how much more incentive a player needs in an MMO other than, all the best gear being in group dungeons, social points, XP bonuses, loot bonuses, and a flat out far better chance for survival in every area of the game.
I have to wonder if it's really about Incentives for socialization, or if it's just that they want it mandated that someone MUST group and play with them whenever they log in, because otherwise, no one wants to.
ZOMG that is my saying!!! I coined it dammit!!!!! I say it all the time in xxx games I play!!! If SOPA passes I will have this site taken down due to , I don';t know, somekinda of made up internet meme infringment law!!!!
What was I saying..Oh yeah.... I agree with you dude. 100% (the orange text poster)
Originally posted by Lidane Originally posted by sanosukex
Originally posted by Lidane
That's fine, but irrelevant to my point. It's easy for people on message boards to be armchair developers, saying what should and should not go into a game. It's another thing entirely to work at a game studio and actually develop a game. It's a whole different game when you actually have to plan and budget for things, and have definte milestones and goals that need to be reached. You simply can't be everything to everyone right from the start. Some things take longer than others, if they even fit your game in the first place. That's the point.
the point a lot of people are trying to make is most of this stuff is little stuff that's been in games for over a decade now.. it's not like you are asking the developers to create anything new. They copied the story system from there other games they copied the MMO elements from other games not a whole lot of new ideas here and with the time and budget I just feel its perfectly acceptable to see why many people seem upset or dissapointed with the final product. And how many of the things on that list were in games AT LAUNCH? Some of those features took years to show up. Others are just cosmetic fluff that can wait for an expansion or free content upgrade and aren't mandatory to play the damned game. It's ridiculous to demand that a game launch with everything including the kitchen sink just because other games took years to put some features in. If people want all that, then show how it would have been done, in detail. Otherwise, it's just another bunch of armchair development on a message board without any basis in reality.
I was going to say give me game that has had the whole list at launch. As a matter of fact I will bet, TSW, GW2 and AA will not have this whole list either. And we will be able to put others on their list that were in other games but not in those. Yes I plan on giving all those games a go. The point is Company takes 5 years to create a game and 5 years adding new ideas to it. Doesn't mean someone can put in all the stuff it took 10 years to do in a 5-6 year span.
Now if Bioware makes MMO #2 and it has the same list of features as SW:TOR and no additions then there is something to be said.
Swimming - total fluff and not needed at launch. any game that has this at launch *cough*GW2*cough* is simply raising the bar IMHO... but it is NOT necessary.
Third party addons - some people love em... some hate em... some dont care. personally i dont care... but a happy community is a thriving community so im all for them IF it make more people happy.
Minigames like card games or slot gamers - again... total fluff and can be added in later updates. personally i would LOVE to go to Nar Shadda and do some gambling. but not needed at launch.
Dual spec - ABSO-FREAKING-LUTELY... no dual spec in a modern MMO is almost unforgivable and it leads to a higher percentage of these gimped "hybrid classes" cause people just dont have the patience to run back and forth from the re-spec d00d.
Day/night cycles - ...meh. honestly i didnt even notice. i assumed that im traveling the galaxy... different time zones and what not...
Non humanoid based playable races - i know what you mean... i wish i couldve rolled a Hutt Juggernaut... would have been AWESOME!
Planetary housing - your ship is a house... it's mobile... its got beds and guns... kind of like a meth dealers mobile home... what more can you ask?
Housing furnishing - agreed... i wish i could put a recliner in my ship like Lonestar from Spaceballs
Animal based pet classes - ...attack Tauntaun? yes please!
Resources for crafting that do have quality - crafting suck. crafting always sucks. deal with it.
The nonsense runs very strong in you, Lizardbones. Let my try to explain why:
2) Third Party Addons - No. Keep them out.
I understand that you are a huge fans of consoles since you obivously like to have everything dished out to you on a silver plate. However that doesnt matter that the rest of the (pc) gamers agree with you. We on the pc like to adjust games to our liking. This is normal because you play on the pc for a very good reason. You want freedom. Like I said, consoles seem to be much more to your liking. The ui is utter crap and it just has to be adjustable like it or not.
16) Collision detection between characters - No. Won't work and will cause more issues than it solves.
Seriously? So because something so vital is too hard to implent you simply leave it out ? Your logic is downright stupid. Its engine is just poorly built, deal with it.
29) Character extended body customization - ? What is this?
Try to learn english.
17) Macros - Very simple targeting macros, or even click casting macros would be fine. Anything more complex? No.
LOL again you are so oblivious to anything more complex than a 1 button push. Are you a troll? You really want such a dumbed down game ? Stop mainstreaming (aka simplifying) my favourite genre please. It has ruined so many of my favourite games already.
12) Guild leveling system - I think a lot of people would like this - it's becoming a standard feature.
A standard feature you say? So point 18, 4, 21, 22 etc arent standard ? I dont understand you at all. I would even say that a guild leveling feature is one of the least mandatory feature of the list.
5) Day/Night cycles - not a virtual world so again, not really necessary.
SWTOR put all their eggs in the voice over and dialogue aspect and they have some big problemos to fix namely:
Low resolution graphics and ability delay lag issues.
Most of this stuff is going to come, you just have to be patient. Look, Trion did a remarkable job with the amount of "features" they had at launch, but they didn't have as large a world or playing area and they didn't have the Voiceovers...
Give Bioware a break, they will get all of it in at some point. Personally I am more interested to see them respond to the community's valid complaints around ability delays and the sub par graphics...
If they can knock those out of the park, they will be well on their way !
It's easy for people on message boards to be armchair developers, saying what should and should not go into a game. It's another thing entirely to work at a game studio and actually develop a game. It's a whole different game when you actually have to plan and budget for things, and have definte milestones and goals that need to be reached. You simply can't be everything to everyone right from the start. Some things take longer than others, if they even fit your game in the first place. That's the point.
the point a lot of people are trying to make is most of this stuff is little stuff that's been in games for over a decade now.. it's not like you are asking the developers to create anything new. They copied the story system from there other games they copied the MMO elements from other games not a whole lot of new ideas here and with the time and budget I just feel its perfectly acceptable to see why many people seem upset or dissapointed with the final product.
And how many of the things on that list were in games AT LAUNCH? Some of those features took years to show up. Others are just cosmetic fluff that can wait for an expansion or free content upgrade and aren't mandatory to play the damned game.
It's ridiculous to demand that a game launch with everything including the kitchen sink just because other games took years to put some features in. If people want all that, then show how it would have been done, in detail. Otherwise, it's just another bunch of armchair development on a message board without any basis in reality.
I was going to say give me game that has had the whole list at launch. As a matter of fact I will bet, TSW, GW2 and AA will not have this whole list either. And we will be able to put others on their list that were in other games but not in those. Yes I plan on giving all those games a go. The point is Company takes 5 years to create a game and 5 years adding new ideas to it. Doesn't mean someone can put in all the stuff it took 10 years to do in a 5-6 year span.
Now if Bioware makes MMO #2 and it has the same list of features as SW:TOR and no additions then there is something to be said.
ok but are you saying its to much to ask for a company to have maybe half of these since they have been around forever now? Rift is a prime example of having a lot of convienence features at launch yet really didn't add a whole lot to expand the genre which cause people to get bored with the game fairly quick. Now how is this any differn't that what bioware did? expect they didn't even include many of these fluff features.. I'm fine with a company not including all these things but at least try and break the mold somewhere.. the story is fine but it's still mostly a single player affair and not going to keep players playing for years.. I followed this game for years hoping it would be released as a game people would want to play for years not a few months till the story was over then find there is nothing new much like what has happened to rift after the rifts and invasions grew stale and the pvp grind became monotomous...
Now about innovation may I lecture you about some of the things that are missing in TOR:
Swimming - Who really Cares? If I wanted swimming I would go to the beach or jump in the pool.
Third party addons - Keep on Crying - with no addons it actually makes you pay attention to the game instead of a box. I actually love there is no addons. It seperates the real gamers from the nubs
Minigames like card games or slot gamers - If you are that bored go read a book.
Dual spec - There is no need for this.
Day/night cycles - Look out your window
Non humanoid based playable races - Because everyone wants to play a droid?
Planetary housing - This isn't SWG
Housing furnishing - This is not SWG
Animal based pet classes - Go Play WOW
Resources for crafting that do have quality - Not even going to comment
Complex crafting system - The kiddies can't get most crafting systems now. It will never be difficult. People will just cry
Guild leveling system - Go play WoW
Animal mounts - Go Play WoW
Flying mounts - Go Play WoW
PvP Arenas - Go Play WoW
Collision detection between characters - Yes because I want to run around every person I see on the fleet.
Macros
Barber / Image Designer - This is not SWG
Appearance tabs - Holy batman an actually real Idea. But, will never happen
Fishing - Nobody likes doing this in any other MMO. Why continue with such a useless skill. I would rather do the real thing.
Guild "Tabard" - Go Play WoW
Multiplayer mounts - Because the 'follow' command is so hard to use
Gear Dyes - Eh, Wont happen
Shared storage bank slots - Won't Happen
In game voice chat - Why so I can listen to the 10 yr olds?
LFG tool - Ruined WoW. NO TY
Guild bank - OMGAD another ok idea
Incentives for socialization - you quest faster if you group up. How is that not incentive?
Character extended body customization - Um no
3 Factions RvR - I'm tired of commenting
Wolrd PvP - How about actually fight on Ilum instead of just turning the point. Oh hey thats right you just want to finish your daily.
RPG tools - This isnt SWG
Underwater content - Everyone I know skipped the WoW area with this. So no
3d exploration - Not enough people use this. Why waste time and resources
Really? Every one of these threads i read sound like people just want world of warcraft...
The highlighted red text in my opionion either has
1. No place in a starwars universe
2. Sounds like it should be there just because wow has it.
Fully Support the Implementation of the green text,
I'm sorry to inform you, but this game is as close as you can get to World of Warcraft. This is obviously a clone but it failed on many of the basic features that most mmorpges consider mandatory by now.
ok but are you saying its to much to ask for a company to have maybe half of these since they have been around forever now?
Because really, every item on that list is something that Bioware wanted for their game, or which just couldn't possibly be pushed to an expansion or free content upgrade later on.
Yes, you're asking too much. Sure, Bioware are a major studio with a series of hit games behind them, but developing an MMO is a whole new animal from developing single player games like Mass Effect and Dragon Age. There's a hell of a lot more involved, and Bioware had to expand and hire and make all kinds of decisions in order to get SWTOR made. It's not as simple as looking at everything that WoW has and deciding that all of it fits SWTOR perfectly and that it all has to go in on Day 1. They needed to design and build the game and get it up and running smoothly, which they've done so far. Now, they add to what they've done and tweak and refine things.
Maybe some of those features will go in. Maybe they won't. But to sit there and offer a list of almost 40 features that "should" be in a game at launch because other games put those features in over YEARS of expansions and additional development flies in the face of all reason. It's not as simple as all that.
ok but are you saying its to much to ask for a company to have maybe half of these since they have been around forever now?
Because really, every item on that list is something that Bioware wanted for their game, or which just couldn't possibly be pushed to an expansion or free content upgrade later on.
Yes, you're asking too much. Sure, Bioware are a major studio with a series of hit games behind them, but developing an MMO is a whole new animal from developing single player games like Mass Effect and Dragon Age. There's a hell of a lot more involved, and Bioware had to expand and hire and make all kinds of decisions in order to get SWTOR made. It's not as simple as looking at everything that WoW has and deciding that all of it fits SWTOR perfectly and that it all has to go in on Day 1. They needed to design and build the game and get it up and running smoothly, which they've done so far. Now, they add to what they've done and tweak and refine things.
Maybe some of those features will go in. Maybe they won't. But to sit there and offer a list of almost 40 features that "should" be in a game at launch because other games put those features in over YEARS of expansions and additional development flies in the face of all reason. It's not as simple as all that.
wish this were true but I feel this game is going to slowly decline instead of slowly increase because many of that stuff is missing and not enough here is new enough to keep people playing for years letting them catch up to the other MMOs out there aside from the most loyal followers.. It's not like this is the only MMO out you want to design a game to keep people playing your game and not go back to whatever they were playing before. I just feel bioware is banking to much on there name and star wars IP and don't think this is going to pay off as well as I and many others were expecting.
Comments
Totally agree with this post.
Thanks for writing all these.Some people has to open their eyes and stop eating crap in the face.
Just out of curiosity. How upset are you? and do you believe that being upset about a game is normal behavior?
That's fine, but irrelevant to my point.
It's easy for people on message boards to be armchair developers, saying what should and should not go into a game. It's another thing entirely to work at a game studio and actually develop a game. It's a whole different game when you actually have to plan and budget for things, and have definte milestones and goals that need to be reached. You simply can't be everything to everyone right from the start. Some things take longer than others, if they even fit your game in the first place. That's the point.
upset, dissapointed, doesn't matter what you want to call it.. how much time do people put into an average single player game? maybe 10-100 hours depending on the game. How many hours go into MMO's for some its weeks upon weeks of actual playtime is all that playtime not considered a huge investment into your life? so you are saying you can't see how people can get somewhat emotional over something they invest many many hours of there lives into?
In case you didn't know MMOs for many people can be considering an addiction and this case yes it would seem like very normal behavior to get a little upset over an addiction no matter what that addiction might be.
People misjudge me a lot here though and I know it's hard ot believe but you can be dissapointed and still enjoy a game.. shocking I know
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/339443/Video-FollowUp-Guide-For-Enhancing-Graphics-and-Performance-in-SWTORSorry-still-Nvidia-Only.html
the point a lot of people are trying to make is most of this stuff is little stuff that's been in games for over a decade now.. it's not like you are asking the developers to create anything new. They copied the story system from there other games they copied the MMO elements from other games not a whole lot of new ideas here and with the time and budget I just feel its perfectly acceptable to see why many people seem upset or dissapointed with the final product.
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/339443/Video-FollowUp-Guide-For-Enhancing-Graphics-and-Performance-in-SWTORSorry-still-Nvidia-Only.html
A large part of the lists people make is stuff that isnt exactly MMO staples. Over 2/3 of the list OP posted wasnt in Rift (just using it as the only other MMO released in 2011), and half of whats left doesnt make sense in a Star Wars setting or is stuff that not everyone wants.
Show me a game thats been highly innovative thats released lately? There are some on the horizon, but Rift was not innovative either but its ok? They had better MMORPG minds behind that game then SWTOR has and they played it safe despite their experience.
OP is full of it and never played the game, you can tell by his list <facepalm>
And how many of the things on that list were in games AT LAUNCH? Some of those features took years to show up. Others are just cosmetic fluff that can wait for an expansion or free content upgrade and aren't mandatory to play the damned game.
It's ridiculous to demand that a game launch with everything including the kitchen sink just because other games took years to put some features in. If people want all that, then show how it would have been done, in detail. Otherwise, it's just another bunch of armchair development on a message board without any basis in reality.
exactly rift was not innovative aside from the zone invasion stuff and the soul system but in the end it was more of the same and how well is that working out for them? game is doing ok but nothing spectacular. Also pretty much all those features in some way or another have been in MMOs since SWTOR first started development. What can you really consider a staple anyway.. I feel games need to learn from past games see what worked the best for them and expand on this if there goal is to not break the mold they should at least do the best they can with that mold.
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/339443/Video-FollowUp-Guide-For-Enhancing-Graphics-and-Performance-in-SWTORSorry-still-Nvidia-Only.html
It's easy for people on message boards to be armchair developers, saying what should and should not go into a game. It's another thing entirely to work at a game studio and actually develop a game. It's a whole different game when you actually have to plan and budget for things, and have definte milestones and goals that need to be reached. You simply can't be everything to everyone right from the start. Some things take longer than others, if they even fit your game in the first place. That's the point.
Don't say that bc now people are going to claim they work, have worked or in school for such a thing
if SWTOR at least had an original combat system, original way to learn skills and learn talents i'd probably agree. Everything here is borrowed ideas, borrowed ideas are going to take much less time to put together than new ideas. There goal was to make a themepark MMO like wow with there single player story added on top and yes they achieved this. If you are fine with the finished product than that's fine many are not yet many are. Most of that stuff that was added over the years to games was new for MMOs at the time or it was a release feature in a new MMO that came out and the other MMO saw it and felt it would work well in there MMO so it was added.
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/339443/Video-FollowUp-Guide-For-Enhancing-Graphics-and-Performance-in-SWTORSorry-still-Nvidia-Only.html
Clone gone bad.
I can claim no such thing.. all I can claim is I have been playing graphical MMOs since there first creation on the internet and used to play MUDs on BBS well before any graphical type MMO or even a web browser was ever released.. also played Gemstone III and IV for years...
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/339443/Video-FollowUp-Guide-For-Enhancing-Graphics-and-Performance-in-SWTORSorry-still-Nvidia-Only.html
The funny thing is, I have actually worked at a game studio. I also have colleagues in the game industry. I've seen first-hand what they go through when they develop games. It's not as easy as people think, and it sure as hell isn't glamorous. Those millions of dollars in budgets go for things as mundane as paying the water and electric bills, buying office supplies, and making sure that everyone in the office gets paid. It doesn't all go into the game itself. And if a studio has multiple projects? That money gets divided up between them all.
Decisions have to be made, and sometimes things you might want just can't happen. Or they can happen, but they're going to take longer than you'd like, or than the message boards would want. That's just the way things work. It's business, and eventually, the reality of business collides with the fanboy wishes and you can't do it all at launch.
ZOMG that is my saying!!! I coined it dammit!!!!! I say it all the time in xxx games I play!!! If SOPA passes I will have this site taken down due to , I don';t know, somekinda of made up internet meme infringment law!!!!
What was I saying..Oh yeah.... I agree with you dude. 100% (the orange text poster)
And how many of the things on that list were in games AT LAUNCH? Some of those features took years to show up. Others are just cosmetic fluff that can wait for an expansion or free content upgrade and aren't mandatory to play the damned game.
It's ridiculous to demand that a game launch with everything including the kitchen sink just because other games took years to put some features in. If people want all that, then show how it would have been done, in detail. Otherwise, it's just another bunch of armchair development on a message board without any basis in reality.
I was going to say give me game that has had the whole list at launch. As a matter of fact I will bet, TSW, GW2 and AA will not have this whole list either. And we will be able to put others on their list that were in other games but not in those. Yes I plan on giving all those games a go. The point is Company takes 5 years to create a game and 5 years adding new ideas to it. Doesn't mean someone can put in all the stuff it took 10 years to do in a 5-6 year span.
Now if Bioware makes MMO #2 and it has the same list of features as SW:TOR and no additions then there is something to be said.
Swimming - total fluff and not needed at launch. any game that has this at launch *cough*GW2*cough* is simply raising the bar IMHO... but it is NOT necessary.
Third party addons - some people love em... some hate em... some dont care. personally i dont care... but a happy community is a thriving community so im all for them IF it make more people happy.
Minigames like card games or slot gamers - again... total fluff and can be added in later updates. personally i would LOVE to go to Nar Shadda and do some gambling. but not needed at launch.
Dual spec - ABSO-FREAKING-LUTELY... no dual spec in a modern MMO is almost unforgivable and it leads to a higher percentage of these gimped "hybrid classes" cause people just dont have the patience to run back and forth from the re-spec d00d.
Day/night cycles - ...meh. honestly i didnt even notice. i assumed that im traveling the galaxy... different time zones and what not...
Non humanoid based playable races - i know what you mean... i wish i couldve rolled a Hutt Juggernaut... would have been AWESOME!
Planetary housing - your ship is a house... it's mobile... its got beds and guns... kind of like a meth dealers mobile home... what more can you ask?
Housing furnishing - agreed... i wish i could put a recliner in my ship like Lonestar from Spaceballs
Animal based pet classes - ...attack Tauntaun? yes please!
Resources for crafting that do have quality - crafting suck. crafting always sucks. deal with it.
Complex crafting system - see #10
Guild leveling system - couldnt care less
Animal mounts - in Star Wars? ...no!
Flying mounts - already have them... they just dont fly very high...
PvP Arenas - PvP in TOR is already terrible. sure! ...lets add even MORE!!
Collision detection between characters - this ultimately boils down to BW's lackluster combat system.
Macros - not necessary.
Barber / Image Designer - yes
Appearance tabs - YES!! ...and seriously... why dont we have this?
Fishing - see #1
Guild "Tabard" - ...huh?
Multiplayer mounts - yes
Gear Dyes - see #19
Shared storage bank slots - see #19
In game voice chat - the game already runs like piss... do you REALLY want to add yet another process to it?
LFG tool - ...meh. never use em cause i have friends.
Guild bank - see #19
Incentives for socialization - social points are already in game
Character extended body customization - see #19
3 Factions RvR - goes back to "bad game design" ...this game has that on tap.
Wolrd PvP - see #15
RPG tools - see #19
Underwater content - see #1
3d exploration - no idea what you mean by this...
The nonsense runs very strong in you, Lizardbones. Let my try to explain why:
2) Third Party Addons - No. Keep them out.
I understand that you are a huge fans of consoles since you obivously like to have everything dished out to you on a silver plate. However that doesnt matter that the rest of the (pc) gamers agree with you. We on the pc like to adjust games to our liking. This is normal because you play on the pc for a very good reason. You want freedom. Like I said, consoles seem to be much more to your liking. The ui is utter crap and it just has to be adjustable like it or not.
16) Collision detection between characters - No. Won't work and will cause more issues than it solves.
Seriously? So because something so vital is too hard to implent you simply leave it out ? Your logic is downright stupid. Its engine is just poorly built, deal with it.
29) Character extended body customization - ? What is this?
Try to learn english.
17) Macros - Very simple targeting macros, or even click casting macros would be fine. Anything more complex? No.
LOL again you are so oblivious to anything more complex than a 1 button push. Are you a troll? You really want such a dumbed down game ? Stop mainstreaming (aka simplifying) my favourite genre please. It has ruined so many of my favourite games already.
12) Guild leveling system - I think a lot of people would like this - it's becoming a standard feature.
A standard feature you say? So point 18, 4, 21, 22 etc arent standard ? I dont understand you at all. I would even say that a guild leveling feature is one of the least mandatory feature of the list.
5) Day/Night cycles - not a virtual world so again, not really necessary.
Please refer to #17
They see me lurkin' they hatin...
SWTOR put all their eggs in the voice over and dialogue aspect and they have some big problemos to fix namely:
Low resolution graphics and ability delay lag issues.
Most of this stuff is going to come, you just have to be patient. Look, Trion did a remarkable job with the amount of "features" they had at launch, but they didn't have as large a world or playing area and they didn't have the Voiceovers...
Give Bioware a break, they will get all of it in at some point. Personally I am more interested to see them respond to the community's valid complaints around ability delays and the sub par graphics...
If they can knock those out of the park, they will be well on their way !
ok but are you saying its to much to ask for a company to have maybe half of these since they have been around forever now? Rift is a prime example of having a lot of convienence features at launch yet really didn't add a whole lot to expand the genre which cause people to get bored with the game fairly quick. Now how is this any differn't that what bioware did? expect they didn't even include many of these fluff features.. I'm fine with a company not including all these things but at least try and break the mold somewhere.. the story is fine but it's still mostly a single player affair and not going to keep players playing for years.. I followed this game for years hoping it would be released as a game people would want to play for years not a few months till the story was over then find there is nothing new much like what has happened to rift after the rifts and invasions grew stale and the pvp grind became monotomous...
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/339443/Video-FollowUp-Guide-For-Enhancing-Graphics-and-Performance-in-SWTORSorry-still-Nvidia-Only.html
I'm sorry to inform you, but this game is as close as you can get to World of Warcraft. This is obviously a clone but it failed on many of the basic features that most mmorpges consider mandatory by now.
They see me lurkin' they hatin...
Because really, every item on that list is something that Bioware wanted for their game, or which just couldn't possibly be pushed to an expansion or free content upgrade later on.
Yes, you're asking too much. Sure, Bioware are a major studio with a series of hit games behind them, but developing an MMO is a whole new animal from developing single player games like Mass Effect and Dragon Age. There's a hell of a lot more involved, and Bioware had to expand and hire and make all kinds of decisions in order to get SWTOR made. It's not as simple as looking at everything that WoW has and deciding that all of it fits SWTOR perfectly and that it all has to go in on Day 1. They needed to design and build the game and get it up and running smoothly, which they've done so far. Now, they add to what they've done and tweak and refine things.
Maybe some of those features will go in. Maybe they won't. But to sit there and offer a list of almost 40 features that "should" be in a game at launch because other games put those features in over YEARS of expansions and additional development flies in the face of all reason. It's not as simple as all that.
wish this were true but I feel this game is going to slowly decline instead of slowly increase because many of that stuff is missing and not enough here is new enough to keep people playing for years letting them catch up to the other MMOs out there aside from the most loyal followers.. It's not like this is the only MMO out you want to design a game to keep people playing your game and not go back to whatever they were playing before. I just feel bioware is banking to much on there name and star wars IP and don't think this is going to pay off as well as I and many others were expecting.
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/339443/Video-FollowUp-Guide-For-Enhancing-Graphics-and-Performance-in-SWTORSorry-still-Nvidia-Only.html