You can always bank on crafters pushing for crafting to have the best gear / rewards in an adventuring game. You want a crafting simulator, then play one, there are several out there: Horizons, Eve, FFXIV, A Tale in the Desert and Ryzom.
I get really irritated when crafters start whining about inequality in games that are and never were meant to be crafting simulators, always pushing for superior crafted items at great expense to the reward systems for the adventuring game.
So because you dont like crafting it should be deleted or half baked?
You claim ppl should play crafting sims instead?
...So should the PVP'ers go play Counterstrike? ...& the questers play Zelda?
Your ignorance blinds you
The Deathstar destroyed planets...Lucas Arts destroyed Galaxies
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ Played: SWG | EVE | WOW | VG | LOTRO | WAR | FML | STO | APB | AOC | MORTAL | WOT | BP | SW:TOR
This is at least a step in the right direction. You can pull all mods out of both PvP and PvE purples to make your crafted orange or orange drops just as viable as the purple counterpart. This doesn't change the fact that many of the crafted items should be BoE and there should be ways to craft some on par items for end game that you can sell. But at least I can keep my look and have the stats.
The current situation with end game gear and item modifications isn’t final and, in fact, many community members like yourself have correctly guessed at what our plans to correct the current design are.
Since this is a fairly important issue to many players, let me disclose more details about what is currently in the work regarding purple items and mods:
- All partially moddable purple items will be made fully moddable again, allowing the removal of the armoring, hilt and barrel.
- The set bonus of end gear purples (PVP and PVE) will be transferable to custom items.
- Some item modifications will be restricted to a certain item type. For example, some item modifications will only fit on helmets, while other will only fit on chests, etc.
As usual, the caveats about unfinished work apply, but this should give you and the community a very good idea of our intentions. We are serious about making custom gear an entirely valid alternative to end game gear and we support the players’ ability to customize their appearance all the way to (and including) end game.
EmmanuelLusinchi
Yeah, just saw this a little while ago. Very happy to hear this stuff. I'm curious to see how it really applies to PvP items as a lot of the higher end stuff isn't moddable at all.
Delicate balance between having to do the content versus having to buy the content.
Crafters want everything without having to do the content, adventurers want to have their special rewards for doing the content that no one else has (or is really hard to get.)
As with all things, balance is needed.
I've always held to the standard:
More people = more complexity.
PvP > All.
Crafting, as a "solo" act is simply about time invested, patience, maybe a bit of luck.
Group and especially large group activities require coordination, soft skills (social/people skills) and scheduling.
PvP can always be more challenging then any AI driven encounter.
As such, I am a full supporter of the "best" gear coming from content, not crafting.
Crafting IMO should always be the way to "skip ahead" a bit or play "catch up" more easily but NOT a clear path to the top.
These are MMOrpgs after all.
Kill some people why don't you? Or make some friends and seek riches together!
It would seem the people who makes these wonderful games for a living (and are quite good at it most of the time) would tend to agree with my assessment.
Unless, of course, you are talking about a "true" sandbox where 100% of everything is player made, no drops no loot.
I've been saying this for years now about this game. Back when they announced they would "have crafting because that's what MMO gamers expect to be in an MMO" and when they stated "we didn't want crafting to interefere with players being heroic".
Those were your tell tale statements folks. Don't try to act like it is a surprise the crafting system has as much use as it does. There have only been a handful of crafting systems that actually had merit and made the crafter useful in modern MMOs:
Ultima Online, Ryzom, SWG (pre NGE), Horizons(Istaria), EvE and ATITD. I'd even give honorable mention to Darkfall and Mortal Online despite them (imo) being horrid in most other gameplay aspects.
Once developers stop believing the LIE that player crafters making the best will stunt game subscriptions and once some very vocal players stop beliving and propigating the LIE that playing in such a condition limits their play in anyway, then, only then will we start to see meaningful crafting systems return.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Personally I think is not that hard to create a rewarding (at least when talking about credits) crafting system. So:
- Vanity tab.
- Gadgets (I remember the repair bot from WoW, for example).
- Pets.
- Mounts.
- A portion of the BiS stuff craftable with schematics and mats coming from operations, with the possibility to trade those recipes and mats. I guess that it wouldn't hurt even the players who believe that BiS stuff should only come from operations.
- Commendation gear and enhancements cannot be better than what you craft. While leveling cybertech, for example, its easier to get blue mods and armor improvements with commendations than crafting them; in endgame it doesn't get any better...
As it is, crafting is money and time sinking. I have been playing with some alts and I can only find biochem to be really useful. From the other professions I can extract a benefit here and there, but if I was only thinking about utility I wouldn't invest in them.
I'm torn on this subject because frankly crafting is so simplistic in this game I really don't think there should be a lot of benefit from it outside of vanity items, leveling purposes and minor amenities. Normally I support crafting playing a larger role, but I find it hard to take that stance with the way crafting is incorporated in this game.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
I really put some effort in to try and be above the curve on my armorcrafting up until about level 30 or so when the stuff I was able to craft became not as good as the stuff I could buy with commendations.....so now I get most of my stuff from the commendation vendors or AH
Cluck Cluck, Gibber Gibber, My Old Mans A Mushroom
EVE Online has the best craftinf setup. Basically everything apart from the books to learn a skill is all player made and sold via markets and contracts.
"Not meaning to anger anyone with this thread, though I know in these forums its quite impossible. You can say "I enjoy vanilla ice cream" and still have 50 posts of angry, hot-tempered people who have nothing better to do than argue with you." - Dirkzen
I know it's a rotten attitude, but I don't care if PvPers are happy in SWTOR or what they get. All I seam to hear in game or on the forums is how you can get this or that through PvP and yadayada. I enjoy the occasional warzone immensely, but in no way shape or form do I care about obtaining PvP gear or will I let it effect what choices I make during my storyline.
I believe SWTOR is more about the journey than the destination. All of the crafts I've tried so far have offered something useful at every level during your adventure.
I love SWToR, enjoying it alot and I like the crafting in it also.
But much as I hate to say it this crafting system is still like almost every other one that comes out anymore. Tacked on and something any player can do if they want. I am loathe to bring up that other now dead SW game, but no game has ever had such a great system for crafting and a purely player run economy as SWG had in it's original format. There if you were a crafter you were a crafter, you could really spend all your time doing it. People had to come to you to get things since there were no vendors sitting around selling everything and the monsters weren't just dropping every item in the galaxy either. Crafting meant something and was great.
Not sure any game is ever going to come along like it again though? Until then we just got to enjoy what we got. For SWToR feels like a cross between FE and everyotherfantasymmo out now, lol. I only say FE due to the timer, I actually think FE is a vastly superior crafting game to SWToR if forced to pick.
I also think they need to add better schematics to satisfy the end-game. The hilt is a very good example of this. The crafting is mostly useful for alts. Cybertech in particular is quite useful, so you can keep your armors updates for both you and your companion.
"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."
First I want to thank the OP for the start of a great thread....and the comments that followed. My reaction is one of dismay. I look for 3 things in a great game.Great pve....great crafting...world class realm vs realm. This game never has had great rvr and I swallowed my concerns thinking their other two elements were well done in the game and rvr might get done right ...in the end. Now with craftings flaws...shortcommings and frankly lack of appreciation by the developers of the demands and sophistication of true crafters...I'm wondering if I'm not wasting my time.
I'm beginning to feel Biowar(like so many others) is simply disrespecting their player target market.They actually think they can throw our poorly thought out, poorly implemented features and players will not notice ! AOC....RIFT and many others along with SWTOR are shining examples of this failure to appreciate and understand the wants of players who are attracted to features gaming compays herald as meaningful.
I would suggest that a signifigant number of gamers have acquired knowlege and experience that exceeds that of those actually deciding how some game features will be implemented.A sad commentary indeed if proven to be true.
But...the game is at the moment mainly PvE story from lvl 1-50 for each of the classes. The endgame and crafting can be built on if there is a demand. Remember Bioware sorted out the mess that was WAR into something not too shoddy after mythic shot themselves in the head with a flwed release a few years ago. I think Bioware will take the smartmove and concentrate on Warzones and PvP zones for end-game. A lot of the replay in the game at the moment is simply re-roll of an alt and playing one of the other class stories.
You can always bank on crafters pushing for crafting to have the best gear / rewards in an adventuring game. You want a crafting simulator, then play one, there are several out there: Horizons, Eve, FFXIV, A Tale in the Desert and Ryzom.
I get really irritated when crafters start whining about inequality in games that are and never were meant to be crafting simulators, always pushing for superior crafted items at great expense to the reward systems for the adventuring game.
So because you dont like crafting it should be deleted or half baked?
You claim ppl should play crafting sims instead?
...So should the PVP'ers go play Counterstrike? ...& the questers play Zelda?
Your ignorance blinds you
Reading comprehension for the win. If you paid any attention at all, you would see this is directed at crafters who go on boards and send in feedback, demanding that crafting be given superior gear to adventuring in an adventure game. It's unfair to all of those people who chose this game specifically for it's focus on adventuring. I think it's rather arrogant for crafters to be whining about not having better items. I don't mind it if they have equally good items, but I will not sit there and let them ruin the adventure game by removing one of it's primary reward systems and replacing it soley with crafting component drops.
I went Synthweaving with my main and Im looking at an endgame recipe list of over 3000 items. Some of my best level 50 stuff is on par with the best ops and pvp gear. And of course I can make orange (slotted) gear as well. What I really like is the fact that I have something I can go all ocd on. I couldnt care less if the stuff I make isnt the best overall in the game. I dont care if Im not a multi-billionaire. But by the time Im done, I will be able to craft full artifact sets for every level range and almost every playstyle and it will say mastercraft and have my character's name on it.
As a crafter, this makes me happy.
I sit on a man's back, choking him and making him carry me, and yet assure myself and others that I am very sorry for him and wish to ease his lot by all possible means - except by getting off his back.
The more I play SWTOR, the more I appreciate Eve Online because of the crafting, PvP, and variety of 'end-game' fighting (that SWTOR doesn't quite have).
Eve was built from the beginning to have a player run economy. Swtor is just starting out and while i doubt it will end up like Eve comparing it to Eve is just a bit unfair.
Let's face it, the crafting system in this game is just a poor excuse for one. You don't make anything much unique and it has little effect on the economy. It is designed strictly for easy of use, it was never intended to be a major system. Bioware just does not get it when it comes to MMO's and the importance of crafting.
I acutually feel sorry for those that are happy with it because they don't understand how enjoyable a good crafting system is.
It has the best crafting in any mmo i have ever played or seen.
Comparing Eve to SWTOR or any other mmo looks funny
I wish Bioware copy alot of stuff from Eve from start like the political system and the alliance's made their, but you need guts for that and you attract hardcore players instead of casuals and that isnt what Bioware wanted.
We need to take SWTOR for what it is a story telling mmo with mmo parts build in the single player.
Best craftng system I have ever used. The hard core crafter in me LOVE this system. If its not viable end game I will be really upset. I am making level 45 items now and was really looking forward to end game crafting. After reading this and checking out the crew skill forums my heart is very sad. I really hope BW takes a long hard look at this. There should be a reason every player would want to seak out every type of crafter for some reason. I am still shocked no MMO have given item slots for just player made gear. That alone would make crafters jump for joy!
Comments
So because you dont like crafting it should be deleted or half baked?
You claim ppl should play crafting sims instead?
...So should the PVP'ers go play Counterstrike? ...& the questers play Zelda?
Your ignorance blinds you
The Deathstar destroyed planets...Lucas Arts destroyed Galaxies
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
Played:
SWG | EVE | WOW | VG | LOTRO | WAR | FML | STO | APB | AOC | MORTAL | WOT | BP | SW:TOR
Yeah, just saw this a little while ago. Very happy to hear this stuff. I'm curious to see how it really applies to PvP items as a lot of the higher end stuff isn't moddable at all.
Delicate balance between having to do the content versus having to buy the content.
Crafters want everything without having to do the content, adventurers want to have their special rewards for doing the content that no one else has (or is really hard to get.)
As with all things, balance is needed.
I've always held to the standard:
More people = more complexity.
PvP > All.
Crafting, as a "solo" act is simply about time invested, patience, maybe a bit of luck.
Group and especially large group activities require coordination, soft skills (social/people skills) and scheduling.
PvP can always be more challenging then any AI driven encounter.
As such, I am a full supporter of the "best" gear coming from content, not crafting.
Crafting IMO should always be the way to "skip ahead" a bit or play "catch up" more easily but NOT a clear path to the top.
These are MMOrpgs after all.
Kill some people why don't you? Or make some friends and seek riches together!
It would seem the people who makes these wonderful games for a living (and are quite good at it most of the time) would tend to agree with my assessment.
Unless, of course, you are talking about a "true" sandbox where 100% of everything is player made, no drops no loot.
Too funny.
I've been saying this for years now about this game. Back when they announced they would "have crafting because that's what MMO gamers expect to be in an MMO" and when they stated "we didn't want crafting to interefere with players being heroic".
Those were your tell tale statements folks. Don't try to act like it is a surprise the crafting system has as much use as it does. There have only been a handful of crafting systems that actually had merit and made the crafter useful in modern MMOs:
Ultima Online, Ryzom, SWG (pre NGE), Horizons(Istaria), EvE and ATITD. I'd even give honorable mention to Darkfall and Mortal Online despite them (imo) being horrid in most other gameplay aspects.
Once developers stop believing the LIE that player crafters making the best will stunt game subscriptions and once some very vocal players stop beliving and propigating the LIE that playing in such a condition limits their play in anyway, then, only then will we start to see meaningful crafting systems return.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
Personally I think is not that hard to create a rewarding (at least when talking about credits) crafting system. So:
- Vanity tab.
- Gadgets (I remember the repair bot from WoW, for example).
- Pets.
- Mounts.
- A portion of the BiS stuff craftable with schematics and mats coming from operations, with the possibility to trade those recipes and mats. I guess that it wouldn't hurt even the players who believe that BiS stuff should only come from operations.
- Commendation gear and enhancements cannot be better than what you craft. While leveling cybertech, for example, its easier to get blue mods and armor improvements with commendations than crafting them; in endgame it doesn't get any better...
As it is, crafting is money and time sinking. I have been playing with some alts and I can only find biochem to be really useful. From the other professions I can extract a benefit here and there, but if I was only thinking about utility I wouldn't invest in them.
I'm torn on this subject because frankly crafting is so simplistic in this game I really don't think there should be a lot of benefit from it outside of vanity items, leveling purposes and minor amenities. Normally I support crafting playing a larger role, but I find it hard to take that stance with the way crafting is incorporated in this game.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
I really put some effort in to try and be above the curve on my armorcrafting up until about level 30 or so when the stuff I was able to craft became not as good as the stuff I could buy with commendations.....so now I get most of my stuff from the commendation vendors or AH
Cluck Cluck, Gibber Gibber, My Old Mans A Mushroom
EVE Online has the best craftinf setup. Basically everything apart from the books to learn a skill is all player made and sold via markets and contracts.
"Not meaning to anger anyone with this thread, though I know in these forums its quite impossible. You can say "I enjoy vanilla ice cream" and still have 50 posts of angry, hot-tempered people who have nothing better to do than argue with you." - Dirkzen
I know it's a rotten attitude, but I don't care if PvPers are happy in SWTOR or what they get. All I seam to hear in game or on the forums is how you can get this or that through PvP and yadayada. I enjoy the occasional warzone immensely, but in no way shape or form do I care about obtaining PvP gear or will I let it effect what choices I make during my storyline.
I believe SWTOR is more about the journey than the destination. All of the crafts I've tried so far have offered something useful at every level during your adventure.
I love SWToR, enjoying it alot and I like the crafting in it also.
But much as I hate to say it this crafting system is still like almost every other one that comes out anymore. Tacked on and something any player can do if they want. I am loathe to bring up that other now dead SW game, but no game has ever had such a great system for crafting and a purely player run economy as SWG had in it's original format. There if you were a crafter you were a crafter, you could really spend all your time doing it. People had to come to you to get things since there were no vendors sitting around selling everything and the monsters weren't just dropping every item in the galaxy either. Crafting meant something and was great.
Not sure any game is ever going to come along like it again though? Until then we just got to enjoy what we got. For SWToR feels like a cross between FE and everyotherfantasymmo out now, lol. I only say FE due to the timer, I actually think FE is a vastly superior crafting game to SWToR if forced to pick.
Now back to SWToR with me
I also think they need to add better schematics to satisfy the end-game. The hilt is a very good example of this. The crafting is mostly useful for alts. Cybertech in particular is quite useful, so you can keep your armors updates for both you and your companion.
"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."
First I want to thank the OP for the start of a great thread....and the comments that followed. My reaction is one of dismay. I look for 3 things in a great game.Great pve....great crafting...world class realm vs realm. This game never has had great rvr and I swallowed my concerns thinking their other two elements were well done in the game and rvr might get done right ...in the end. Now with craftings flaws...shortcommings and frankly lack of appreciation by the developers of the demands and sophistication of true crafters...I'm wondering if I'm not wasting my time.
I'm beginning to feel Biowar(like so many others) is simply disrespecting their player target market.They actually think they can throw our poorly thought out, poorly implemented features and players will not notice ! AOC....RIFT and many others along with SWTOR are shining examples of this failure to appreciate and understand the wants of players who are attracted to features gaming compays herald as meaningful.
I would suggest that a signifigant number of gamers have acquired knowlege and experience that exceeds that of those actually deciding how some game features will be implemented.A sad commentary indeed if proven to be true.
But...the game is at the moment mainly PvE story from lvl 1-50 for each of the classes. The endgame and crafting can be built on if there is a demand. Remember Bioware sorted out the mess that was WAR into something not too shoddy after mythic shot themselves in the head with a flwed release a few years ago. I think Bioware will take the smartmove and concentrate on Warzones and PvP zones for end-game. A lot of the replay in the game at the moment is simply re-roll of an alt and playing one of the other class stories.
Reading comprehension for the win. If you paid any attention at all, you would see this is directed at crafters who go on boards and send in feedback, demanding that crafting be given superior gear to adventuring in an adventure game. It's unfair to all of those people who chose this game specifically for it's focus on adventuring. I think it's rather arrogant for crafters to be whining about not having better items. I don't mind it if they have equally good items, but I will not sit there and let them ruin the adventure game by removing one of it's primary reward systems and replacing it soley with crafting component drops.
I went Synthweaving with my main and Im looking at an endgame recipe list of over 3000 items. Some of my best level 50 stuff is on par with the best ops and pvp gear. And of course I can make orange (slotted) gear as well. What I really like is the fact that I have something I can go all ocd on. I couldnt care less if the stuff I make isnt the best overall in the game. I dont care if Im not a multi-billionaire. But by the time Im done, I will be able to craft full artifact sets for every level range and almost every playstyle and it will say mastercraft and have my character's name on it.
As a crafter, this makes me happy.
I sit on a man's back, choking him and making him carry me, and yet assure myself and others that I am very sorry for him and wish to ease his lot by all possible means - except by getting off his back.
Eve was built from the beginning to have a player run economy. Swtor is just starting out and while i doubt it will end up like Eve comparing it to Eve is just a bit unfair.
Let's face it, the crafting system in this game is just a poor excuse for one. You don't make anything much unique and it has little effect on the economy. It is designed strictly for easy of use, it was never intended to be a major system. Bioware just does not get it when it comes to MMO's and the importance of crafting.
I acutually feel sorry for those that are happy with it because they don't understand how enjoyable a good crafting system is.
Eve has a fantastic econemy alright
It has the best crafting in any mmo i have ever played or seen.
Comparing Eve to SWTOR or any other mmo looks funny
I wish Bioware copy alot of stuff from Eve from start like the political system and the alliance's made their, but you need guts for that and you attract hardcore players instead of casuals and that isnt what Bioware wanted.
We need to take SWTOR for what it is a story telling mmo with mmo parts build in the single player.
Best craftng system I have ever used. The hard core crafter in me LOVE this system. If its not viable end game I will be really upset. I am making level 45 items now and was really looking forward to end game crafting. After reading this and checking out the crew skill forums my heart is very sad. I really hope BW takes a long hard look at this. There should be a reason every player would want to seak out every type of crafter for some reason. I am still shocked no MMO have given item slots for just player made gear. That alone would make crafters jump for joy!
They plan on working on this =-)
http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=1398252#edit1398252