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Originally posted by dweeb80 See I think the exact opposite. I personally think SWTOR failing would do the mmo market a hell of a lot of good for a few reasons.
I can understand why people would want SWTOR to fail, I can also see why people think it will change the shape of MMORPG's for the better. Sadly it won't. If SWTOR doesn't retain subscribers it weakens future developer requests for investment. Why invest 50million dollars into a break even MMORPG project? The argument will become "if an IP like Star Wars and company like Bioware can't make it work for 150million how can you for 50million?" This doesn't mean the MMORPG genre will die, but will suffer and probably evolve in a direction most won't appreciate.
Also those who think SWTOR is the way it is because "they only want money?" should re-think. LA, Bioware and EA could have made a lot more profit (not revenue) with little risk by focusing on Star Wars social network and mobile games. The star wars IP alone would have pulled in 50 million MAU, on average spending $0.10 each. This is a massive long term profit considering social and mobile games would have cost less than 1% of SWTOR.
SWTOR is the way it is because 11 million people seem to be addicted to the formula in WoW. So rather than focusing blame on EA and Bioware - blame those 11 million players.
SWTOR is like WoW so that entire communities can migrate from WoW with ease. Dividing established communities through innovation, visuals etc etc is impossible - most people don't care and just want to be doing something with friends. This has been the hurdle constantly for companies and Bioware have taken design decisions to give their game a chance to appeal by feeling familiar and comfortable at launch. Surely ensuring they have a populace so the massively multiplayer aspects of the game thrive is vital?
If anything wow has been in a slow decline over the past few years that is just getting steeper and steeper as the days go on. SWTOR is the way it is because WoW was successfull and corporate execs are focusing on the profitability and potential rather on the actual mood and feel of gamers. Which is what business usually does obviously.
The issue is with MMO'ers a lot of us are willing to try ANYTHING that comes down the block and then we will rip it to shreds when its the same damn game. Game devs for the most part seem to have either lost all touch with gamers or simply never had it to begin with. There are a few exceptions but it seems time and time again we have some rich dude in a corporate office more or less telling us that, "No thats what you say, but what you really want is X" and then a few months later their game implodes because for some reason they refuse to listen to the players.
EA is doing what it is doing to make money, if you disagree with that then... well I cant help yah. TOR failing will hopefully get it through future investors heads that you cant just reskin the same genre. If it doesnt then we will see a nice jump to indie gaming, however I dont think thats going to happen. MMO's simply have too much cash in them and they will continue to be chain produced (and most will fail) until we get another solid hit.
I just hope someone wakes up and starts innovating again and coming up with something completely different.
Originally posted by BigBadWolfe We need to change our ways and have more realistic expectations of new MMOs if the industry is going to survive.
No, developers need to make games we like if the industry is going to survive. Customers don't exist for the sake of the company, the company exists for the customers.
Originally posted by BigBadWolfe 1.) We need to understand that a game that just launched is simply not going to have as much end-game content as a game that's been out for over a 1-6years.
A game that just launched has a problem if people are already reaching endgame content.
Originally posted by BigBadWolfe 2.) We need to understand that if we want new content, we have to pay for it. If you like the game but want more content, unsubbing isn't going to help, but only make things worse.
You need to understand that if players don't like existing content, they absolutely do NOT have to pay for it. You don't seem to understand how businesses operate. If you supply a product your customers don't want, your business will fail. That's how it is.
Originally posted by BigBadWolfe 3.) We really need to stop comparing everything to WoW. I think this is self-explanitory.
We will once everything stops trying to copy WoW.
Originally posted by BigBadWolfe 4.) We really need to stop wishing every MMO that's not your kind of MMO will fail. Just because I might not like that style of MMO doesn't mean that it should fail, and nobody be allowed to play it.
Here I'll agree with you. However there also needs to be more variety in the MMO industry. At current most new games coming around are more or less clones of other popular games.
Originally posted by BigBadWolfe I'm not a SW:TOR fanboy, I'm just concerned what will happen to the industry if a huge financial investment like TOR can't buy its way into the market.
This in itself is a big problem with the video game industry as a whole. It's not budget that makes a game good, it's creativity. All the money in the world can't buy that, and its a focus too many game developers (not just of MMOs) have lost sight of in my opinion. A company ideally should NOT be able to "buy" its way into the market, it should make it's place through the entertainment value of it's product, not the development bill.
I haven't played SWTOR yet, so I can't say one way or another whether I like it or not, but you give all the WRONG reasons to pay for an MMORPG in your post here.
Originally posted by Robokapp Originally posted by BigBadWolfe 1.) We need to understand that a game that just launched is simply not going to have as much end-game content as a game that's been out for over a 1-6years.
I expect a ford 2012 model to outperform a Ford T. if it doesn't, I'll get a different car.
You don't work in IT do you?
It is good thing that swtor fail, maybe other companys will say:"hey big names ea/bioware didnt make it whit 300 million and best ip in the world star wars whit exect clone of wow , maybe we should try to make something else and uniqe this time no point of making this clone games anymore"
Why would you support such mediocrity? They had the biggest budget on any game ever developed and they blew it by churning out something generic again. It is 2012 not 2004; the combat system is just too overdone. Let EA learn from this mistake if TOR starts to dive because I could care less if they plan to make another MMO out in the future.
They played it far too safe developing SWTOR when people are begging for something different.
Originally posted by BigBadWolfe Okay you guys figured me out I was semi-trolling, I don't even like SW:TOR. I was bored, and hearing news that the game wasn't doing too well expectation wise, so I wanted to kick it while it was (briefly?) down. It's good to see the MMO market champion innovation over brand recognition, inflated budgets, and cookie cutter gameplay. However I still think Its bad for the industry if this game turns into another Warhammer, because it still has potential. What I would like to see is an expansion of the companion system with companion AI capable of learning and interacting with other companions as well as people. I would like the Legacy system make leveling alts a legitimate form of endgame progression a la FFXI. Also whatever ArcheAge is doing with its sandbox ocean voyage can easily be implemented into SW:TORs space combat mechanic.
You evil man!
(I know this gif has nothing to do with this thread or anything, but I've been waiting to post it somewhere since this morning)
Support Bioware's push to single player and coop games that require subs? Are you sewious?
Yes, this is the game that i would only play until i finish the story line of my character
as i am already a bit bored as there is literally nothing going on in the world, even the instanced raid is pretty repetitive
and in this case ( i hate to say it, but the Instanced dungeon in SWTOR is way suckier than the one in WoW )
will i sub another month? yes, but as i said, after i finish my IA story, then im done, sorry SWTOR, but, i think even if you spent alot in this game, i think it's still not going to keep a lot of people unless they are the ultimate SW fans )
So What Now?
Originally posted by Jimmac Customers staying subbed today for future content and expectations is fucking stupid. Here's the correct order of things: 1. Company makes a game worth playing and paying for. 2. Players pay to play the game. It works in that order, and not the other way around. It doesn't matter if they spent ten thousand dollars to produce the game or twenty trillion. That's their problem. Make a good product and then people will pay for it. Customers should not be asked to pay for some future product. There is no justifiable reason to stay subbed to a game just because you think your sub will help the game survive longer or will help the company develop more future content. That is absolute insanity and the exact opposite of how business is run. Bioware isn't in this to provide you with entertainment. They are in this to make money as a business. They are not on your side. You are not a team with them. Bottom line: if you like the game today, stay subbed. If you don't, then don't resub.
Not only that - it's EA, EA don't support or update their mmos, once they're done they're done in EAs eyes.
I agree with you if its a Sony or EA or whatever game.....
...however if it's something from a smaller company like say Perpetuum or Mortal Online or the upcoming Dominus (or a non mmo example minecraft), if you like the game and see it has potential I see nothing wrong with supporting it for future content.
If they go and blow all their budget on cutscenes and voice overs without actually making a mmo underneath it all though, well :P
Originally posted by wormywyrm I don't want games like TOR, I would rather start over with low budget MMOs and see them gain momentum down the right path. The path layed out by UO --> SWG --> ??? NOT the path laid out by EQ --> WoW --> a bunch of really bad rip offs.
The paths which survive are those which are the fittest.
In this case: the best at entertaining large amounts of players.
Natural evolution, really.
Starting over wouldn't change anything. The same games would succeed.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I did my part, i bought the game, but it didn't hold my interest way to easy to max level, i am waiting on firefall now.
Originally posted by BigBadWolfe Okay so I'm hearing a lot of reports from players saying that they like TOR but they don't want to stay subbed to it, or that they are going to cancel and resub back to the game when they've added more content/fixed issues. DON'T DO THAT. EA/Bioware spent a lot of money on SW:TOR, I'm hearing estimates around $300 million or so, that's the most money a company has ever tossed at the MMO industry. You WANT them to toss money at us. However in order to cover such a big investment, Bioware needs an evern bigger return, and that's where the MMO community comes in. Unlike other gaming industries, MMOs need to establish a relationship with the playerbase to keep making money, and lately that relationship as soured. A lot of developers think the MMO community has turned into a bunch of loud-mouth, lazy, fickle bunch of spoiled brats. -SNIP-
- if you dont enjoy something why continue coming back for it and paying for it ?
- Yes they invested a lot of money but for all that money the game offers nothing new to the MMO genre.
- If I buy the latest car from GMH which they spent millions on designing and developing and its a POS why would I buy another car from GMH ?
- The MMO industry as a whole needs to start looking outside the box, not just looking at WoW and going "well that worked for them so lets replicate that in our game". Theres a Reason Indie studios have gained good footholds in the PC games industry and its because the big publishers allowed a large vacumn to form when they ceased innovating and instead turned to churning out the next sequel to a successfull IP or copying a successfull game formula all the while watering it down and letting it become stale.
- In trying to sell any product you must meet the expectations & demands of the consumers, if you dont you will have less customers than you would like.
I was about to write a long flamatory reply to the op but then I took an arrow to the knee.
Btw: You guys rock. These posts ARE damn hilarious (in a good way).
---Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
The MMO industry is the only one I know that has customers eagerly willing to pay for half a product based on future promises, empty or otherwise.
"Here's your burger."
"Where's my fries?"
"We'll give them to you next week, we're out of potatos right now."
"But I already paid for the fries."
"Yes but our word should be enough for you."
There's one born every second.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
If you don't enjoy it we really don't need to encourage it. Most MMO's come out of the box in poor condition. Some get better, some don't. But some of the core features of this game are very poor. Yes I'll stay subscribed for now. But I'm talking about needing a NGE style overhaul to fix this. You talk about all the money they put in, but where did it go. This was not a groundbreaking MMO by any stretch. And I don't expect Bioware to get it right the first time. Obviously they had more trouble getting out of their comfort zone then I gave them credit for. EA should have given the money to Mythic, at least they have some games under the belt.
But there is no reason to keep giving your money to them if you don't enjoy it. It's probably a good wakeup call that people want something new, and a fully voiced MMO isn't what they were looking for.
Fuck EA. Who gives a shit if they're bothered that an MMO which plays strikingly similar to the majority of the market doesn't do well? Isn't that exactly what should happen? If they don't make any more full client MMO's, or stop paying attention to TOR, it's nothing I'll lose sleep over. Bioware needs to stick to single player games, it's what they do best.
I keep hearing this over and over, like it's a valid excuse, but just because a game is an MMO does not mean it needs to use the same systems of design. This is the reason many of you see comparisons to WoW.
"This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)
I un-subbed and I don't really care if SWTOR makes it or not. This game I felt was a slap in the face for Gamers.
They should have stuck with single player games but after SWTOR I don't expect BW to release anything good in the future.
No way SWTOR is a 300Million dollar game. So many games come out far superior to this with much less money spent.
Originally posted by BigBadWolfe Okay so I'm hearing a lot of reports from players saying that they like TOR but they don't want to stay subbed to it, or that they are going to cancel and resub back to the game when they've added more content/fixed issues. DON'T DO THAT. EA/Bioware spent a lot of money on SW:TOR, I'm hearing estimates around $300 million or so, that's the most money a company has ever tossed at the MMO industry. You WANT them to toss money at us. However in order to cover such a big investment, Bioware needs an evern bigger return, and that's where the MMO community comes in. Unlike other gaming industries, MMOs need to establish a relationship with the playerbase to keep making money, and lately that relationship as soured. A lot of developers think the MMO community has turned into a bunch of loud-mouth, lazy, fickle bunch of spoiled brats. We need to change our ways and have more realistic expectations of new MMOs if the industry is going to survive. 1.) We need to understand that a game that just launched is simply not going to have as much end-game content as a game that's been out for over a 1-6years. 2.) We need to understand that if we want new content, we have to pay for it. If you like the game but want more content, unsubbing isn't going to help, but only make things worse. 3.) We really need to stop comparing everything to WoW. I think this is self-explanitory. 4.) We really need to stop wishing every MMO that's not your kind of MMO will fail. Just because I might not like that style of MMO doesn't mean that it should fail, and nobody be allowed to play it. I'm not a SW:TOR fanboy, I'm just concerned what will happen to the industry if a huge financial investment like TOR can't buy its way into the market. I can imagine that it's failure will create another black hole, similiar to Warhammer, where the industry was stuck in the dark ages of bad mmos for another 2-3 years. Or even worse, MMOs turn out to be an unprofitable fad and they pull the plug like they did with the Guitar Hero type games. So in conclusion if you do like Star Wars: The Old Republc, give them your money. TOR may not be the best game in the market, or any good at all, but it's definitely super expensive, and it's new, and EA gets really mad if they don't get paid. We want to keep the relationship between MMO companies and communities good, or they might pull out and go make cheap browser games or something.
Maybe they shouldnt take out a 300million loan to make such a crap game, and expect players to clean up the mess.
What kind of model is that, taking some financial lessons from greece or something?
It did not cost 300million why you think a mediocre game cost 300million lol. Well not in million years this game costed 300million maybe max 80 million but seems even unreal.
And i have the feeling your EA or Bioware employee whos payed to come here and beg players to keep there sub hehe.
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Originally posted by Mephster The mmo genre will never get better if people support rehashed ideas since Everquest. We're supposed to be moving forward not backward.
This. The fact that they spent so much money making a game that is actually worse in some ways than the failed ones that came before it has me wishing them the worst. You guys keep buying this crap, you'll keep getting it. You want to see something new, then make this the most expensive burn a developer has felt to send a resounding message to others that this formula has been over-milked.
I don't expect that to happen though because it's Star Wars. Remove that from the equation, and rename it Galaxy Online or something, and this game would be seen for the mediocre game it is and it would be the bargain bin in record time.
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Originally posted by forest-nl And i have the feeling your EA or Bioware employee whos payed to come here and beg players to keep there sub hehe.
That's what bugs me the most about this topic, and I don't even feel that this person is employed by Bioware. It's probably just a fan who believes he has a valid argument, though it's absolutely infuriating to me. Like you said, and the poster above you, why would anyone pay to sub to a game which is so mediocre in design when there's already so much available that, most of us, are probably established members of already? More over, why would anyone subscribe to a game they feel is subpar? To keep EA happy and providing content?
It's not our job to protect the companies we buy products from. It's their job to provide something we can justify spending money on, and if they can't do that, they deserve the result. It's like saying we should support sloppy work in hopes that the individual providing it will some day change his tune. Have we learned nothing about EA/Bioware? Dragon Age 2, anyone?
Originally posted by Bunks Originally posted by xfur24 It may sound shallow, but here's something to think about. Companies that splurge on mega-marketing teams are just insecure about their product. Let's face it, the internet is filled with so many MMO-NEWS kinda websites and user reviews/gameplay videos are easily accessible. Over-hyping usually ends up with the product being very different from what was being marketed. Look at 2011, a year of over-hyping and stuff like that.. it's pretty sad that the MMO industry turned out like this.
Now that you mention it, rememer this?
second video down...I couldnt help but laugh.
First I was like... and then I was like
Originally posted by Pelaaja Originally posted by Bunks Originally posted by xfur24 It may sound shallow, but here's something to think about. Companies that splurge on mega-marketing teams are just insecure about their product. Let's face it, the internet is filled with so many MMO-NEWS kinda websites and user reviews/gameplay videos are easily accessible. Over-hyping usually ends up with the product being very different from what was being marketed. Look at 2011, a year of over-hyping and stuff like that.. it's pretty sad that the MMO industry turned out like this.
LOL that was hillarious and honestly it's almost exactly what I imagined the developers would be like back at the studios